Deposition of:
`Lyndsey Pilar Wyman (IPR)
`
`December 29, 2021
`
`In the Matter of:
`United Therapeutics Corporation vs.
`Liquidia Technologies (IPR)
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`800-734-5292 | calendar-dmv@veritext.com |
`
`Liquidia's Exhibit 1110
`
`
`Lyndsey Pilar Wyman (IPR)
`
`December 29, 2021
`
`In the Matter of:
`United Therapeutics Corporation vs.
`Liquidia Technologies (IPR)
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`800-734-5292 | calendar-dmv@veritext.com |
`
`Liquidia's Exhibit 1110
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` _____________________________
` )
` LIQUIDIA TECHNOLOGIES, INC. )
` )
` Petitioner )
` )
` vs. )
` )
` UNITED THERAPEUTICS )
` CORPORATION )
` )
` Patent Owner )
` _____________________________
`
` Trial No. IPR 2021-00406
` Patent No. 10,716,793 B2
`
` Remote Videotaped Deposition of
` LYNDSEY PILAR WYMAN
` December 29, 2021
` 9:00 a.m.
`
` Reported by: Bonnie L. Russo
` Job No. 5008760
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Liquidia's Exhibit 1110
`Page 1
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`
`
` Remote Videotaped Deposition of Lyndsey Pilar
`
` Wyman, held through:
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`Page 2
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` Veritext Legal Solutions
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` 1250 I Street, N.W.
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` Washington, D.C.
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` Pursuant to Notice, when were present on behalf
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` of the respective parties:
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` A P P E A R A N C E S :
` O n b e h a l f o f t h e P e t i t i o n e r :
` D O U G L A S W I L L I A M C H E E K , E S Q U I R E
` S A N Y A S U K D U A N G , E S Q U I R E
` C O O L E Y L L P
` 1 2 9 9 P e n n s y l v a n i a A v e n u e , N . W .
` S u i t e 7 0 0
` W a s h i n g t o n , D . C . 2 0 0 0 4
` d c h e e k @ c o o l e y . c o m
` s s u k d u a n g @ c o o l e y . c o m
` - a n d -
` R O B E R T M I N N , E S Q U I R E
` C O L L E Y L L P
` 5 5 H u d s o n Y a r d s
` N e w Y o r k , N e w Y o r k 1 0 0 0 1
` r m i n n @ c o o l e y . c o m
`
` O n b e h a l f o f t h e P a t e n t O w n e r :
`
` M I C H A E L R . H O U S T O N , E S Q U I R E
` S T E P H E N M A E B I U S , E S Q U I R E
` F O L E Y & L A R D N E R L L P
` 3 2 1 N o r t h C l a r k S t r e e t
` S u i t e 3 0 0 0
` C h i c a g o , I l l i n o i s 6 0 6 5 4
` m h o u s t o n @ f o l e y . c o m
` s m a e b i u s @ f o l e y . c o m
` - a n d -
` T I M O T H Y D U N K E R , E S Q U I R E
` M c D E R M O T T W I L L & E M E R Y
` 5 0 0 N . C a p i t o l S t r e e t , N . W .
` W a s h i n g t o n , D . C . 2 0 0 0 1
` t d u n k e r @ m w e . c o m
` - a n d -
` M A N D Y K I M , E S Q U I R E
` M c D E R M O T T W I L L & E M E R Y
` 1 8 5 6 5 J a m b o r e e R o a d , S u i t e 2 5 0
` I r v i n e , C a l i f o r n i a 9 2 6 1 2
` m h k i m @ m w e . c o m
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`Liquidia's Exhibit 1110
`Page 3
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` A P P E A R A N C E S ( C O N T I N U E D ) :
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`Page 4
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` A l s o P r e s e n t :
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` O r s o n B r a i t h w a i t e , V i d e o g r a p h e r
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` B i l l C r a d d o c k , C o n c i e r g e
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`Liquidia's Exhibit 1110
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` I N D E X
` EXAMINATION OF LYNDSEY PILAR WYMAN PAGE
` BY MR. CHEEK 9
` 203
` BY MR. HOUSTON 184
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` EXHIBITS
` Exhibit 1 Declaration of 14
` Ms. Pilar Wyman
`
` Exhibit 2 Curriculum Vitae of 14
` Pilar Wyman
` Exhibit 3 Indexing Best 36
` Practices
`
` Exhibit 4 Titles Indexed 2020 38
`
` Exhibit 5 AMWA Journal Index 40
` Volumes 1-34
` (1985-2019)
`
` Exhibit 6 Supplement to 69
` Circulation
` Journal of the
` American Heart
` Association
` LIQ02819315-323
` Exhibit 7 WTS Article Delivery 86
` Attachment
`
` Exhibit 8 PubMed Search 99
` LIQ02819384-402
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`Liquidia's Exhibit 1110
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` EXHIBITS (CONTINUED):
` Exhibit 9 Article entitled 105
` "Medical therapeutics
` for pulmonary arterial
` hypertension: Form basic
` science and clinical trial
` design to evidence-based
` medicine"
` LIQ02819403-416
`
` Exhibit 10 Circulation 117
` Abstracts from 2002
` Scientific Sessions
`
` Exhibit 11 Web of Science Search 143
` LIQ02819454-461
` Exhibit 12 University of Iowa 146
` European Heart Journal
` Abstract Supplement
` Exhibit 13 Article entitled "Neue 161
` Therapieoptionen in der
` Behandlung der
` pulmonalarteriellen
` Hypertonie"
` (German and Translation)
`
` Exhibit 2045 Chemical Abstracts 190
` with Transcript
` Exhibit 2046 Ovid Search Results 193
` of Voswinckel
`
` Exhibit 2047 PubMed Search Results 195
` for Voswinckel
`
` (Exhibits bound separately.)
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`Liquidia's Exhibit 1110
`Page 6
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
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` (9:06 a.m.)
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` 09:06:22
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. 09:06:22
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` We are going on the record at 9:06 09:06:28
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` a.m. on December 29th, 2021. 09:06:31
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` This is Media Unit 1 of the 09:06:34
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` remote-recorded deposition of Pilar Wyman in 09:06:36
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` the matter of Liquidia Technologies, Inc. 09:06:40
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` versus United Therapeutics Corporation, filed 09:06:44
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` in the United States Patent and Trademark 09:06:48
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` Office, Patent Trial and Appeal Board, IPR No. 09:06:51
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` 2021-00406. 09:06:54
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` My name is Orson Braithwaite from 09:06:59
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` the firm Veritext Legal Solutions, and I'm the 09:07:01
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` videographer. The court reporter is Bonnie 09:07:03
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` Russo from the firm Veritext Legal Solutions. 09:07:06
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` Counsel will now state their 09:07:08
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` appearances and affiliations for the record. 09:07:10
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` MR. CHEEK: This is Doug Cheek. 09:07:12
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` With me, I have Sanya Sukduang and Robert Minn, 09:07:15
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`Liquidia's Exhibit 1110
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` all of Cooley LLP, and we represent Liquidia 09:07:18
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` Technologies, Inc. 09:07:22
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` MR. HOUSTON: This is Mike Houston 09:07:24
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` of Foley & Lardner on behalf of the patent 09:07:26
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` owner, United Therapeutics. 09:07:29
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` MS. KIM: You also have Mandy Kim on 09:07:35
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` with McDermott Will & Emery on behalf of patent 09:07:37
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` owner, United Therapeutics Corporation. 09:07:40
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you. 09:07:40
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` MR. DUNKER: Also on -- also on is 09:07:46
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` Tim Dunker with patent owner, United 09:07:47
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` Therapeutics, and with McDermott Will & Emery. 09:07:50
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you. 09:07:54
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` Will the court reporter, please, 09:07:56
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` swear in the witness. 09:07:58
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` THE COURT REPORTER: Yes. First, I
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` have a stipulation on the record.
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` The attorneys participating in this
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` deposition acknowledge that I am not physically
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` present in the deposition room, and that I will
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` be reporting the deposition remotely.
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` They further acknowledge that, in
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`Liquidia's Exhibit 1110
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` lieu of an oath administered in person, I will
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` administer the oath remotely.
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` The parties further agree that if
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` the witness is testifying from a state where I
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` am not a notary, that the witness may be sworn
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` in by an out-of-state notary.
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` If any party has an objection to
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` this manner of reporting, please state it now.
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` (Pause.)
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` THE COURT REPORTER: Okay. Hearing
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` none, we can proceed, and I will swear in the
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` witness.
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` LYNDSEY PILAR WYMAN,
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` being first duly sworn, to tell the truth, the
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` whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
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` testified as follows:
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` THE COURT REPORTER: Thank you.
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` You may proceed.
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` EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PETITIONER
`
` BY MR. CHEEK:
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` Q. Hi, Ms. Wyman. How are you? 09:08:52
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` A. Good. Thank you. 09:08:54
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`Liquidia's Exhibit 1110
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` Q. Thank you for being with us today. 09:08:54
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` Could you, please, state your full 09:08:56
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` name for the record? 09:08:57
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` A. Lyndsey Pilar Wyman. 09:08:59
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` Q. So before we start, I'm just going 09:09:01
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` to go over some ground rules. First, if you 09:09:04
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` don't understand a question, please let me 09:09:09
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` know. I'm happy to rephrase. Otherwise, I 09:09:12
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` will assume that you understand the question. 09:09:14
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` Is that fair? 09:09:17
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` A. Yes. 09:09:17
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` Q. Your counsel may object at times. 09:09:20
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` Even if he -- even if your counsel objects, you 09:09:23
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` must answer the question to the best of your 09:09:27
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` ability unless Counsel specifically instructs 09:09:29
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` you not to answer. Okay? 09:09:31
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` A. Yes. 09:09:33
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` Q. And I -- I will try to take breaks 09:09:36
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` every hour. If you need a break sooner, just 09:09:37
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` let me know so long as there is no question 09:09:41
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` pending. If there is a question pending, I 09:09:44
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` would like for you to answer the question and 09:09:47
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` then we can take a break soon thereafter. 09:09:49
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` Is there any reason why you cannot 09:09:53
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` testify truthfully today? 09:09:56
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` A. No, not that I'm aware of. 09:09:58
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` Q. Is there anyone in the room with you 09:10:00
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` today? 09:10:02
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` A. No. 09:10:02
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` Q. Have you been deposed before? 09:10:04
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` A. I have not, no. 09:10:07
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` Q. And for your deposition today what 09:10:08
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` did you do to prepare? 09:10:13
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` A. I reviewed my testimony, my 09:10:15
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` declarations, rather, and I met with the Foley 09:10:18
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` & Lardner attorneys earlier this week. 09:10:24
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` Q. Have you ever filed an IPR 09:10:26
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` declaration before? 09:10:30
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` A. Before this case? 09:10:31
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` Q. Yes. 09:10:34
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` A. I don't think so. I'm -- I'm 09:10:35
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` hesitating only because I don't know the exact 09:10:43
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` language of a declaration I filed before for a 09:10:45
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` related case, but I don't think that was an 09:10:48
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` I -- IPR. I get these terms mixed up. I'm 09:10:50
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` sorry. 09:10:53
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` Q. Have you filed an expert report 09:10:53
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` for -- for a district court matter? 09:10:56
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` A. I have filed an expert report 09:10:58
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` before. I don't know if it was for a district 09:11:01
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` matter. 09:11:03
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` Q. Got you. 09:11:04
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` And were you -- was -- were you an 09:11:05
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` expert for United Therapeutics in that case? 09:11:09
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` A. Yes. 09:11:12
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` Q. Have you ever been asked to assess 09:11:15
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` whether a document is publicly available before 09:11:17
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` in a district court or IPR matter? 09:11:21
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` A. For -- yes. 09:11:24
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` Q. Got you. Great. Okay. 09:11:30
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` So in what matter? 09:11:32
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` A. It was related to this whole same -- 09:11:37
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` the same issue. 09:11:41
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` Q. So it was related to the Voswinckel 09:11:44
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` references? 09:11:48
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` A. Yes. 09:11:49
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` Q. And the opposing party, that was not 09:11:51
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` Liquidia? 09:11:59
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` A. I don't think so. Unless I don't 09:12:00
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` remember the names. Sorry. 09:12:03
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` Q. That's okay. 09:12:05
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` So did you review any documents to 09:12:07
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` prepare for your deposition today? 09:12:10
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` A. I reviewed my own declaration that I 09:12:12
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` believed is what this is about, my own expert 09:12:16
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` -- my own declaration for this case. 09:12:21
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` Q. Did you do any searching for 09:12:27
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` documents yourself? 09:12:28
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` A. Aside from what is stated in my 09:12:29
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` declarations? 09:12:32
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` Q. Yes. 09:12:35
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` A. No. 09:12:36
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` Q. Okay. And have you discussed this 09:12:36
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` deposition with anyone other than your counsel? 09:12:38
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` A. No. 09:12:41
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` Q. Okay. So, for this deposition, you 09:12:41
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` submitted a declaration in IPR 2021-00406; is 09:12:54
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` that correct? 09:13:02
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`Liquidia's Exhibit 1110
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` A. Correct. 09:13:02
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` MR. CHEEK: I'd like to enter 09:13:04
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` Exhibit 1. 09:13:06
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` (Deposition Exhibit 1 was marked for 09:13:06
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` identification.) 09:13:06
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` BY MR. CHEEK: 09:13:36
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` Q. Did it show up for you? 09:13:36
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` A. Yeah. Took a couple clicks but 09:13:38
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` there it is, yeah. 09:13:40
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` Q. It takes a little while. 09:13:40
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` Does this appear to be the 09:13:42
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` declaration you submitted in IPR 2021-00406? 09:13:44
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` A. Yes. 09:13:50
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` MR. CHEEK: I'd like to enter 09:13:58
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` Exhibit 2. We'll go back to that one. 09:14:00
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` (Deposition Exhibit 2 was marked for 09:14:02
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` identification.) 09:14:02
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` BY MR. CHEEK: 09:14:02
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` Q. Does this appear to be your most 09:14:22
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` recent CV or resume? 09:14:24
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` A. Yes. 09:14:25
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` Q. So I'd like to just start off with 09:14:43
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` your CV, so Exhibit 2. So the -- the first -- 09:14:45
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` the first position you list is Chief Indexer 09:14:53
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` and Consultant. 09:14:56
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` Can you tell me a little bit about 09:14:57
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` what you mean by "Chief Indexer"? 09:14:59
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` A. Well, I'm a -- I'm the chief indexer 09:15:02
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` for Wyman Indexing for my own company. I'm a 09:15:07
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` freelance writer of indexes, which is also 09:15:10
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` somebody who is called an indexer. 09:15:13
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` Q. Got you. 09:15:17
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` A. Which means that I write indexes for 09:15:18
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` information access for documents, collections 09:15:22
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` of documents, books, journals, you name it. 09:15:24
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` Q. Got you. 09:15:28
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` A. But I also consult on those matters 09:15:29
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` and how best to put such information aids 09:15:31
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` together. 09:15:36
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` Q. Got you. 09:15:37
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` And under that first title it 09:15:38
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` mentions -- it says: "I write 09:15:42
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` back-of-the-book-style indexes." 09:15:45
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` Is that sort of the indexing 09:15:47
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Liquidia's Exhibit 1110
`Page 15
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` information guides you're referring to? 09:15:50
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` A. It's -- it's some of it. The rest 09:15:53
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` of that sentence is pertinent because I'm 09:15:56
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` describing there the tools that I use for when 09:15:58
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` I write back-of-the-book-style indexes 09:16:01
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` currently. I'm currently using SynDEx and 09:16:05
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` index manager software for those types of 09:16:08
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` projects. So I -- 09:16:11
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` Q. Got you. 09:16:11
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` A. I -- I used to also write a lot of 09:16:14
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` back-of-the-book-style indexes for journals for 09:16:17
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` accumulative issues of -- of journals as well 09:16:21
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` as for other types of document collections such 09:16:23
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` as proceedings for conferences and abstract 09:16:28
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` collections and archives, and that sort of 09:16:32
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` thing. Different tools are often used for 09:16:34
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` those types of material. So that sentence 09:16:36
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` there in my CV is very specific with regards to 09:16:39
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` the current tools I'm using for book indexes 09:16:41
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` these days. 09:16:45
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` Q. Got you. 09:16:45
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` And so by back-of-the-book-style 09:16:46
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Liquidia's Exhibit 1110
`Page 16
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`
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`Page 17
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` indexing, that would be -- so if you had an 09:16:48
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` American history textbook and you were 09:16:51
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` interested in, say, Abraham Lincoln, you could 09:16:54
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` look back into the index and find where that 09:16:56
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` information would be, correct? 09:16:59
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` A. Exactly. Exactly. 09:17:01
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` Q. But -- and so does the type of index 09:17:04
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` you specialize involve the generation or 09:17:07
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` analysis of marked records? 09:17:10
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` A. No. 09:17:12
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` Q. Got you. 09:17:15
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` And does the type of indexing you 09:17:15
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` specialize in involve categorizing publications 09:17:20
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` and, say, databases like PubMed or -- or, say, 09:17:24
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` in a library? 09:17:24
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` A. Okay. So here's where it -- 09:17:30
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` MR. HOUSTON: Objection to form. 09:17:30
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` THE WITNESS: -- gets really 09:17:33
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` interesting because I'm not a cataloger, per 09:17:33
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` se. However -- so PubMed and databases like 09:17:37
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` PubMed include both complete publications, such 09:17:39
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` as journals, as well as specific articles 09:17:43
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`Liquidia's Exhibit 1110
`Page 17
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`Page 18
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` within those journals. The way all of those 09:17:47
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` are indexed into a database involves selections 09:17:51
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` of keywords. Often multiple -- generally, 09:17:56
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` multiple keywords, as well as relations to 09:18:00
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` indicate the relations between those keywords 09:18:03
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` and how they pertain to those documents that 09:18:06
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` are being indexed in the database. 09:18:08
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` I have not personally done database 09:18:12
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` indexing myself. However, many -- I know many 09:18:15
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` people who do. I have worked with people who 09:18:20
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` do. I have consulted with teams designing the 09:18:22
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` controlled vocabularies and the thesauri for 09:18:26
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` these databases. I have consulted and been 09:18:30
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` with USDA and NAL where the core of the 09:18:33
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` indexing for PubMed and the MeSH vocabulary is 09:18:38
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` maintained and all of that. So I am very aware 09:18:45
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` with it -- of it though my own personal 09:18:48
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` preference was to write indexes for using more 09:18:52
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` than just keywords. 09:18:56
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` Does that make sense? 09:18:57
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` Q. A -- a little bit? I get -- I get 09:19:00
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` the types of indexing mixed up. You -- you 09:19:01
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Liquidia's Exhibit 1110
`Page 18
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`
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`Page 19
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` referenced database indexing. 09:19:04
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` What -- what's that? 09:19:06
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` A. Database indexing is the way 09:19:07
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` articles are -- are filed and coded into 09:19:10
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` databases like PubMed. When you go to the back 09:19:16
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` of the book for these book-style indexes, you 09:19:22
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` see the index entire. You can -- you can 09:19:25
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` peruse it. You can read it. You can see all 09:19:28
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` of what's contained in the index. It's called 09:19:30
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` a "closed index." 09:19:33
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` A database index is an open ongoing 09:19:35
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` index. You can never see all of it at once. 09:19:37
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` You search it by way of putting in key terms, 09:19:40
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` perhaps relational terms, Boolean search terms 09:19:44
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` and that sort of thing to find out what has 09:19:50
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` been tagged or entered into the database, and 09:19:51
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` then to find out where you can access those 09:19:53
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` publications. 09:19:56
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` Q. Good. 09:20:01
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` And -- and you said you -- so you 09:20:02
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` don't specifically do database indexing? 09:20:03
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` A. I do not, correct. 09:20:05
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
`215-241-1000 ~ 610-434-8588 ~ 302-571-0510 ~ 202-803-8830
`
`Liquidia's Exhibit 1110
`Page 19
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`Page 20
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` Q. Okay. So the type of indexing you 09:20:07
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` specialize in is more in the -- the single 09:20:12
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` journal, say, in volumes or the -- the book 09:20:14
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` itself; is that -- is that right? 09:20:20
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` A. Well, yes, but when you say "single 09:20:23
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` volume," that can also be accumulative volume. 09:20:27
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` So, for example, many journals used to have -- 09:20:32
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` used to issue at the end of each volume an 09:20:38
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` index for all the issues of that year and -- 09:20:41
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` accumulative index. So that kind of thing, I 09:20:45
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` used to do a lot of that before the Internet 09:20:47
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` really got big or many people started using the 09:20:50
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` Internet. So that -- we could call that a 09:20:54
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` back-of-the-journal index, but it's very -- 09:20:56
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` very much like a back-of-the-book index, and 09:20:59
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` the style and control benchmarks are the same 09:21:01
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` for those. 09:21:05
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` That kind of work pretty much 09:21:06
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` stopped in early 2000s as the Internet became 09:21:09
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` more ubiquitous and things -- everything 09:21:13
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` started getting scanned and put into databases, 09:21:16
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` and authors were, at that point, typically 09:21:19
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`Liquidia's Exhibit 1110
`Page 20
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` being asked to supply their own keywords, and 09:21:21
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` those keywords were often expected to guide how 09:21:26
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` they -- those articles were put into the 09:21:29
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` database indexes and back-of-the-journal-style 09:21:32
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` indexes -- back-of-the-journal-style -- 09:21:36
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` back-of-the-journal indexes for volumes stopped 09:21:39
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` being the norm for journals at that point. 09:21:43
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` Q. And you said in the -- so the early 09:21:46
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` 2000s the Internet kind of made 09:21:49
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` back-of-the-journal indexes not needed any 09:21:52
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` more; is that right? 09:21:56
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` A. Yeah. 09:21:57
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` There was this -- as -- as the 09:21:57
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` medical publishers started combination of 09:21:59
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` mergers and acquisitions among the publishers, 09:22:06
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` offshoring, cost cutting, people seeing the 09:22:10
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` Internet thinking, oh, we can just put 09:22:12
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` everything online and people can use full tech 09:22:15
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` search, we can use the databases, all of those 09:22:17
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` factors coupled together kind of rang the death 09:22:20
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` nail for back-of-the-journal indexes. 09:22:26
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` Q. So other than back-of-the-book or 09:22:29
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`Liquidia's Exhibit 1110
`Page 21
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` back-of-the-journal indexing, do you do any 09:22:32
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` other type of indexing? 09:22:35
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` A. Yes. 09:22:36
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` As it also says up there in the top 09:22:39
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` line, I also embed indexes. So, increasingly, 09:22:41
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` as we are moving into electronic or digital 09:22:46
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` publishing, indexes are becoming embedded into 09:22:52
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` the text of documents of articles and books. 09:22:56
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` And the technology behind that is still -- 09:23:00
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` hasn't been perfected yet, but I do a lot of 09:23:04
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` that as well. And that's -- that's for books, 09:23:08
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` it's for -- not even sure -- we haven't even 09:23:13
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` decided yet what to call when you write 09:23:16
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` something that's never going to be published in 09:23:18
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` hard copy. 09:23:22
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` So I -- but I index for such 09:23:25
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` publications as well, and many of the -- of the 09:23:28
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` intellectual quality control measures still 09:23:30
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` apply, but there is also additional factors, 09:23:32
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` technical factors regarding coding and the 09:23:37
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` level of precision when it comes to accuracy of 09:23:42
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` locators, et cetera. 09:23:50
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