Transcript of Rafael Betancourt-
`Zamora
`
`Date: January 21, 2020
`Case: Certain Touch-Controlled Mobile Devices, Computers (337-TA-1162)
`
`Planet Depos
`Phone: 888.433.3767
`Email:: transcripts@planetdepos.com
`www.planetdepos.com
`
`WORLDWIDE COURT REPORTING & LITIGATION TECHNOLOGY
`
`DELL EXHIBIT 1019 PAGE 1
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`DELL EXHIBIT 1019 PAGE 1
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`
`Zamora
`
`Date: January 21, 2020
`Case: Certain Touch-Controlled Mobile Devices, Computers (337-TA-1162)
`
`Planet Depos
`Phone: 888.433.3767
`Email:: transcripts@planetdepos.com
`www.planetdepos.com
`
`WORLDWIDE COURT REPORTING & LITIGATION TECHNOLOGY
`
`DELL EXHIBIT 1019 PAGE 1
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`DELL EXHIBIT 1019 PAGE 1
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`
`
`UNITED STATES INTERNATIONAL TRADE COMMISSION
`WASHINGTON, D.C.
`
`: :
`
`- - - - - - - - - - - - x
`IN THE MATTER OF
`
`CERTAIN TOUCH-CONTROLLED
`MOBILE DEVICES,
`COMPUTERS, AND
`COMPONENTS THEREOF.
`- - - - - - - - - - - - x
`
`: Investigation No.
`: 337-TA-1162
`:
`:
`
`Videotaped Deposition of
`RAFAEL BETANCOURT-ZAMORA
`Los Angeles, California
`Tuesday, January 21, 2020
`9:02 a.m.
`
`Job No. 283243
`Pages: 1 - 257
`Reported by: Cynthia J. Vega, RMR, CSR 6640, CCRR 95
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`Transcript of Rafael Betancourt-Zamora
`Conducted on January 21, 2020
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`2
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`INDEX
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`WITNESS
`Rafael Betancourt-Zamora
`
`EXAMINATION
`By Mr. Yagura
`
`EXHIBIT
`Exhibit 1
`
`Exhibit 2
`
`Exhibit 3
`Exhibit 4
`Exhibit 5
`
`Exhibit 6
`Exhibit 7
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`EXHIBITS
`DESCRIPTION
`Rebuttal Expert Report of Rafael
`Betancourt-Zamora Regarding
`Validity of U.S. Patent
`No. 9,372,580
`Expert Report of Vivek Subramanian
`Regarding Invalidity of US. Patent
`No. 9,372,580
`Enhanced Touch Detection Methods
`Claim Mapping Table
`United States Patent, Simmons,
`et al., US 9,372,580
`Time chart
`Time chart measuring the set of
`lines that received the signal
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`Transcript of Rafael Betancourt-Zamora
`Conducted on January 21, 2020
`
`3
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`EXHIBITS
`DESCRIPTION
`Time chart measuring the set of
`lines that received the signal
`United States Patent Application
`Publication Yousefpor
`United States Patent Krah, et al.,
`US 9,746,967
`United States Patent Land, et al.,
`US 8,482,544
`United States Patent Chang,
`et al., US 8,587,555
`Series of articles
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`PAGE
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`152
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`EXHIBIT
`Exhibit 8
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`Exhibit 9
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`Exhibit 10
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`Transcript of Rafael Betancourt-Zamora
`Conducted on January 21, 2020
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`4
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`APPEARANCES
`
`For the Complainant Neodron Ltd.:
`RUSS, AUGUST & KABAT
`BY: KRISTOPHER R. DAVIS
`12424 Wilshire Boulevard, 12th Floor
`Los Angeles, California 90025
`(310) 826-7474
`kdavis@raklaw.com
`
`For the Respondents Samsung Electronics Co. Ltd. and
`Samsung Electronics America, Inc.:
`O'MELVENY & MYERS LLP
`BY: RYAN K. YAGURA
`BEN HABER
`400 South Hope Street, 18th Floor
`Los Angeles, California 90071
`(213) 430-6000
`ryagura@omm.com
`bhaber@omm.com
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`Transcript of Rafael Betancourt-Zamora
`Conducted on January 21, 2020
`
`5
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`For the Respondents Lenovo Group Ltd., Lenovo (United
`States) Inc. and Motorola Mobility LLC:
`FINNEGAN, HENDERSON, FARABOW, GARRETT & DUNNER, LLP
`BY: SMITH R. BRITTINGHAM IV
`901 New York Avenue, Northwest
`Washington, D.C. 20001
`(202) 408-4000
`smith.brittingham@finnegan.com
`
`For the Respondent Dell Technologies, Inc.:
`ALSTON & BIRD
`BY: MICHAEL LEE
`2200 Ross Avenue, Suite 2300
`Dallas, Texas 75201
`(214) 922-3400
`michael.lee@alston.com
`
`The Videographer:
`JILLIAN BARRICELI
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`Transcript of Rafael Betancourt-Zamora
`Conducted on January 21, 2020
`
`6
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`The video deposition of Rafael
`Betancourt-Zamora, Witness herein, taken on behalf of
`Respondent, on Tuesday, January 21, 2020, before me,
`Cynthia J. Vega, CSR No. 6640, beginning at the hour of
`9:02 a.m., at 12424 Wilshire Boulevard, 12th Floor, in
`the City of Los Angeles, County of Los Angeles, State of
`California.
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`Transcript of Rafael Betancourt-Zamora
`Conducted on January 21, 2020
`
`7
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`LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA
`TUESDAY, JANUARY 21, 2020, 9:02 A.M.
`
`THE VIDEOGRAPHER: This begins disc number 1 in
`the videotaped deposition of Rafael Betancourt-Zamora in
`the matter of Certain Touch-Controlled Mobile Devices,
`Computers, and Components Thereof, in the United States
`International Trade Commission, Washington, D.C. Case
`Number 337-TA-1162.
`Today's date is Tuesday, January 21, 2020. The
`time on the video monitor is 9:02 a.m.
`The videographer today is Jillian Barricelli
`representing Planet Depos.
`This video deposition is taking place at Russ,
`August & Kabat, located at 12424 Wilshire Boulevard,
`12th Floor, Los Angeles, California.
`Would counsel please voice identify themselves
`and state whom they represent.
`MR. YAGURA: Ryan Yagura, and with me is Ben
`Haber, of the law firm O'Melveny & Myers, and we
`misrepresent the Samsung respondents.
`MR. BRITTINGHAM: Smith Brittingham, Finnegan,
`Henderson, representing Lenovo and Motorola respondents.
`MR. LEE: Michael Lee with Alston & Bird
`representing the Dell respondents.
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`Transcript of Rafael Betancourt-Zamora
`Conducted on January 21, 2020
`
`8
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`MR. DAVIS: Kris Davis from Russ, August &
`Kabat representing the witness and complainant Neodron.
`THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The court reporter today is
`Cindy Vega representing Planet Depos.
`Would the reporter please swear in the witness.
`
`RAFAEL BETANCOURT-ZAMORA
`Witness herein, being first duly sworn, testifies as
`follows:
`
`EXAMINATION
`
`BY MR. YAGURA:
`Q.
`Please state your name for the record.
`A.
`Rafael Betancourt.
`Q.
`And do you go by Mr. or Dr.?
`A.
`Mr. Betancourt is fine.
`Q.
`I saw in your CV you received a D Engineering
`degree from Stanford; is that correct?
`A.
`That's correct. It's called an engineer's
`degree.
`Engineer's degree. And how many years does it
`Q.
`take to get an engineer's degree?
`A.
`Well, usually -- it depends. It took me more
`than ten years, but it's typically seven to nine years
`usually.
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`Transcript of Rafael Betancourt-Zamora
`Conducted on January 21, 2020
`
`9
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`And a D Engineering degree is different than a
`Q.
`PhD degree?
`A.
`It's slightly different.
`Q.
`Is the main difference that you don't have to
`present a thesis at the end of a D Engineering degree?
`A.
`I did present a thesis. The main difference is
`the review committee is only one professor instead of
`three professors.
`Q.
`Are there any other differences between a PhD
`in engineering and a D in engineering?
`A.
`That's the main difference is the one signature
`in the thesis.
`Q.
`Okay. Mr. Betancourt, when were you retained
`for this matter?
`A.
`Earlier this year. Around July, August. I
`don't remember exactly when.
`Q.
`And who contacted you about the retention?
`A.
`Initially it was through IMS ExpertServices.
`It's an agency. They contacted me, told me about the
`case and the possibility of working on this with Russ,
`August & Kabat.
`Q.
`Your hourly rate is $300 per hour?
`A.
`That's correct.
`Q.
`Approximately how many hours have you spent on
`this matter to date?
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`Transcript of Rafael Betancourt-Zamora
`Conducted on January 21, 2020
`
`10
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`I don't recall offhand. I can provide that
`A.
`later if you want. I have records.
`Q.
`What's your best estimate?
`A.
`Maybe less than 100 hours. I don't remember
`right now.
`Q.
`Close to 100 hours?
`A.
`I can't remember at this point. I billed for
`travel expenses and other things, so it's hard for me to
`tell.
`Is it fair to say that your amount of time
`Q.
`spent on this matter to date is somewhere between 75 and
`100 hours?
`A.
`Possibly. Again, I will have to go back and
`look at my own records. I can tell you right away. But
`I will not remember that offhand. I do have multiple
`clients that I bill.
`Q.
`Okay. In this case you understand there are
`four patents asserted against the respondents; is that
`true?
`I understand there are multiple patents
`A.
`asserted. I worked only on '580.
`Q.
`Did you review any of the other asserted
`patents other than the '580 patent?
`A.
`Earlier on, I was asked to review some of the
`other patents, '910, '173, but I was not asked to do any
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`Transcript of Rafael Betancourt-Zamora
`Conducted on January 21, 2020
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`11
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`analysis on them.
`Q.
`Did you determine that your background wasn't
`suitable to the other patents other than the
`'580 patent?
`A.
`I didn't determine anything. I was just told
`by the attorneys which one to work on. I mean,
`initially it was just an overall review. And they're
`the ones who directed me to do an analysis of '580.
`Q.
`In connection with your opinions today, did you
`review any of the accused products in this case?
`A.
`I was -- again, initially I was given an
`overview of some of the accused products, just a general
`idea, but I did not go in and review them personally or
`explicitly each one of them. I was not asked to do any
`kind of infringement analysis.
`Q.
`In your materials recited, you say that you
`considered the deposition transcripts of
`Messrs. Duvenhage, Son, and Lee; is that correct?
`A.
`I mean, let me look at my report. Where do you
`see that?
`In your materials relied upon.
`Q.
`Materials relied upon. Sure.
`A.
`It's towards the back of your report.
`Q.
`Well, the back is -- you mean the appendix A?
`A.
`Exhibit A?
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`Transcript of Rafael Betancourt-Zamora
`Conducted on January 21, 2020
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`12
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`Exhibit A.
`Yes. I see. Please, can you repeat again
`
`Q.
`A.
`the --
`Yes. In your materials cited or materials
`Q.
`considered, you say that you reviewed relevant portions
`of the transcripts of the depositions of Mr. Duvenhage,
`Mr. Son, and Mr. Lee; correct?
`A.
`Oh, yes. Now I recall I briefly went over
`those.
`I looked at them, the interviews of those
`individuals, yes.
`Q.
`Did you rely upon any portions of their
`deposition transcripts for your -- for the purposes of
`your opinions here today?
`A.
`Well, I certainly reviewed those transcripts
`and I got some idea what those -- what was said. I
`don't know I can point specifically to where I used that
`information. This is a general knowledge that I acquire
`when I reviewed those.
`Q.
`I'm asking you whether there is any portions in
`those deposition transcripts that you rely upon in
`forming your opinions?
`A.
`I would not recall a specific portion. I would
`not recall the deposition. If you want to show me the
`deposition and a portion you want me to look at, I could
`do that, but, yeah, I wouldn't remember. They were very
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`Transcript of Rafael Betancourt-Zamora
`Conducted on January 21, 2020
`
`13
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`long and -- yeah.
`Q.
`What was the purpose of reviewing the
`deposition transcripts of Mr. Duvenhage, Mr. Son, and
`Mr. Lee?
`At the time they were provided to me as in
`A.
`general with all the materials on this case. I did not
`have a specific purpose myself in reviewing them. I'm
`just trying to get an understanding of what is going on.
`I personally did not have a -- as I was looking for
`something specific.
`Q.
`Have you spoken with any of the other
`testifying experts in this case?
`A.
`No, I have not spoken with any of the other
`experts. I have read some of the material of
`Dr. Brogioli, but I have not spoken with him personally
`or in any other way communicated.
`Q.
`Have you spoken with any other nontestifying
`experts on whose opinions you rely in this case?
`A.
`Can you clarify what would be a nontestifying
`expert?
`Who would that be?
`Q.
`It's an expert or consultant in the field who
`will not be testifying at trial.
`A.
`I have not consulted any other person besides
`the attorneys.
`Q.
`Have you spoken with any witnesses from Neodron
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`Conducted on January 21, 2020
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`14
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`or Microchip in preparation for your opinions in this
`case?
`No, I have not spoken with any witness.
`A.
`You mentioned you reviewed the report of
`Q.
`Dr. Brogioli. Is that Dr. Brogioli's report on
`infringement?
`A.
`Only a portion of it. Let me share that with
`you. I believe it's when I was bringing in the summary
`of the technology background. There was a portion that
`was relevant in his report, and that portion was
`provided to me by the attorneys. And I reviewed that
`portion and I thought that was suitable to include
`that -- a portion of that as part of my technology
`background, given that it's the same technology
`background for the whole case, but I didn't look at the
`whole report in any way.
`Q.
`Did you look at Dr. Brogioli's -- the portions
`of his report that deal with infringement of the
`'580 patent?
`A.
`No. I have never seen those portions.
`Q.
`The portion of the report that you did review,
`the background, the technology, did you agree with the
`portions that you incorporated in your report?
`A.
`Yes. The portions that I brought in that were
`incorporated, yes, I agreed with those portions. Those
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`Transcript of Rafael Betancourt-Zamora
`Conducted on January 21, 2020
`
`15
`
`are general technology background descriptions, which
`will be the same ones I would have written myself.
`Q.
`You've also imported from Dr. Brogioli's report
`a comparison between claim 1 of the '580 patent and
`figure 2 of the '580 patent; is that correct?
`A.
`Would you tell me where that is just to find it
`quickly.
`It's in your report on page 19.
`Q.
`Page 19. So you're talking about page 19, the
`A.
`figure on page 19 that shows the sort of like flow chart
`annotated with different colors?
`Q.
`Yes.
`A.
`Is that the one you're referring to?
`Q.
`Yes.
`A.
`I think it is stated that this illustration is
`from Neodron's Markman tutorials. I'm sorry. That's
`referring to the next illustration. So let me take a
`look real quick.
`So figure 2 is from the patent, but the
`annotations on the additional information, it may have
`been from Dr. Brogioli's report because I did not
`produce the figure.
`Q.
`Do you agree with the color codings in that
`figure that you've incorporated into your report, that
`is, the color codings on page 19 of your report?
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`Transcript of Rafael Betancourt-Zamora
`Conducted on January 21, 2020
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`16
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`Yeah, I did review the figure and I did agree
`A.
`of using the figure, including the color coding. So I
`agree with what the figure states, yes.
`Q.
`Okay. Did you ever speak to Mr. Kerr?
`A.
`Mr. Kerr?
`Q.
`Mr. Kerr. He's an economic expert in this case
`for Neodron.
`A.
`No, I haven't spoken with Mr. Kerr.
`Q.
`Have you ever spoken with anybody who works
`with or for Mr. Kerr?
`A.
`No, I did not.
`Q.
`Other than Dr. Brogioli's report and portions
`that you've said you reviewed, have you reviewed any
`other expert reports in this case in preparing your
`opinions?
`No, I have not reviewed any other expert
`A.
`report. I think you asked that question already. I
`haven't reviewed any other experts' reports in this case
`except for the portions that were incorporated in my
`report.
`To be clear, you've read Dr. Subramanian's
`Q.
`opening report on invalidity; correct?
`A.
`I read Dr. Subramanian's report as the one
`that's copied here. Yes, I did read it.
`Q.
`So other than Dr. Subramanian's report on
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`Transcript of Rafael Betancourt-Zamora
`Conducted on January 21, 2020
`
`17
`
`invalidity and Dr. Brogioli's technology tutorial, have
`you reviewed any other expert reports in this case or
`any other portions of expert reports in this case in
`preparing your opinions?
`A.
`No, I have not.
`(Exhibit 1 was marked for identification.)
`BY MR. YAGURA:
`Q.
`I've marked your expert report as Betancourt 1.
`Is that a full and accurate copy of your report?
`A.
`This one here, yes.
`(Exhibit 2 was marked for identification.)
`BY MR. YAGURA:
`Q.
`I've also marked as exhibit -- Betancourt
`Exhibit 2 a copy of Dr. Subramanian's report on
`invalidity. Do you see that?
`A.
`Yes.
`Q.
`Is Betancourt 2 a full and complete copy of
`Dr. Subramanian's report on invalidity without the
`exhibits?
`Without the exhibits, correct.
`A.
`I also see you've provided a chart today; is
`Q.
`that correct?
`A.
`My own notes, which -- yes.
`Q.
`And what was the purpose for preparing that
`chart?
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`Transcript of Rafael Betancourt-Zamora
`Conducted on January 21, 2020
`
`18
`
`This chart is just exactly the text of the
`A.
`claims of patent '580, where I organized in a table
`format so that it will make it easy for me to navigate
`through the claim. That was the only purpose of that.
`The markings may not match exactly what's on the report
`because it was done very early on. When I first
`reviewed the patent, I created the chart so I can find
`my way through the claims. There is absolutely no
`additional information that was added except the text of
`the patent in there.
`MR. YAGURA: I'd like to mark this chart as
`Betancourt Exhibit 3 for the record.
`(Exhibit 3 was marked for identification.)
`BY MR. YAGURA:
`Q.
`Mr. Betancourt, you've -- in Betancourt
`Exhibit A -- Exhibit 3, you have a series of claims in
`each column. Claim, for example, 1 in the first column,
`claim 5 in the second column, and claim 9 in the third
`column; is that correct?
`A.
`Correct.
`Q.
`And then for each of the claims, you label the
`limitations A through J; is that correct?
`A.
`Correct, but I just wanted to clarify. This
`was the very first time I read it, so they may not be
`matching the exact labeling that's in my report because
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`Transcript of Rafael Betancourt-Zamora
`Conducted on January 21, 2020
`
`19
`
`this was done very early on, and there was no intention
`to synchronize this too. So they may deviate slightly
`from what's on my report. And the ones on my report are
`the ones I'm going to be using.
`Q.
`Okay.
`A.
`Yeah. So just to clarify.
`MR. YAGURA: Let me mark as Exhibit 4 then a
`claim mapping table. This is Betancourt 4.
`(Exhibit 4 was marked for identification.)
`BY MR. YAGURA:
`Q.
`Mr. Betancourt, can I ask you to take a look at
`Exhibit 4 and tell me if this is the claim mapping table
`from your report?
`A.
`I'm sorry. Let me clarify. You're saying this
`table is as copied from my report?
`Q.
`I'm just asking you if this is the claim
`mapping table that you're familiar with, Betancourt
`Exhibit 4?
`A.
`It looks similar, but, again, is this something
`that I could find in my report that you got out or
`copied from?
`Q.
`Exhibit 4 is actually from Dr. Subramanian's
`report.
`A.
`Q.
`
`Oh, okay.
`It's his claim mapping. And my understanding
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`Transcript of Rafael Betancourt-Zamora
`Conducted on January 21, 2020
`
`20
`
`is that you adopted his claiming mapping in your
`responses in your report; is that correct?
`A.
`We would -- yeah, I would have adopted his
`labeling of the claim elements. And you're saying it's
`in Professor Subramanian's report?
`Q.
`Yes. I'll represent to you that Betancourt
`Exhibit 4 is Dr. Subramanian's mapping of the claims to
`numbers and letters.
`A.
`Okay.
`Q.
`And my understanding is that you adopted these
`same markings of numbers and letters in responding to
`his report. Is that fair?
`A.
`That will be a fair statement, yes. I would
`have used exactly the same ones that were used in
`Dr. Subramanian's report.
`Q.
`So rather than have you go back to his report
`every single time, I've just excerpted the claim mapping
`into Betancourt Exhibit 4 for both of our convenience.
`Is that okay?
`A.
`That will be okay.
`Q.
`Okay. When you reviewed Dr. Subramanian's
`opening report on invalidity, what was your process for
`determining whether claim limitations, for example, on
`Betancourt Exhibit 4, were present or missing from each
`prior art reference he cites?
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`Transcript of Rafael Betancourt-Zamora
`Conducted on January 21, 2020
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`21
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`Well, first I had to -- may I go back and look
`A.
`at -- I think I address that in my report. Let me go
`look back to that section so I can answer accurately.
`Basically I would have had followed the legal
`standards as applied to this case, including the Markman
`order from the judge, the claim constructions. I would
`have also looked at how this would have been read by
`someone -- by a person ordinarily skilled in the art.
`Give me one second. Let me make sure. Is that the --
`Q.
`What I'm asking you is: When you were
`determining whether a limitation from a claim was
`present or missing from a prior art reference, did you
`go in order of the claim limitations and did you compare
`the limitation to the prior art, limitation by
`limitation to the prior art?
`A.
`I would have gone, yeah, claim by claim,
`element by element, and looking at each prior art
`reference and seeing if the prior art reference have
`those limitations in a way that would show that there
`was some anticipation. That will be my first step
`looking at that. And in interpreting those limitations,
`I would have followed the instructions that were given
`to me as far as for the claim construction.
`Q.
`Where you disagreed with Dr. Subramanian that
`an element was missing, where you disagreed, you
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`Transcript of Rafael Betancourt-Zamora
`Conducted on January 21, 2020
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`22
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`annotated that in your report, Betancourt Exhibit 1;
`correct?
`
`MR. DAVIS: Objection. Form.
`Go ahead.
`THE WITNESS: I would -- I annotated in my
`report any time I believe a claim had an element that
`was missing for each one of the prior art references.
`BY MR. YAGURA:
`Q.
`And where you did not disagree with
`Dr. Subramanian that an element was present in a prior
`art reference, you did not mention anything in your
`report.
`Is that fair?
`MR. DAVIS: Objection. Form.
`THE WITNESS: Not necessarily. I would say in
`some cases I may not have commented if I thought that
`was not that important at the time. I might not have
`explicitly shared in the report each and every
`disagreement with Dr. Subramanian as far as something is
`missing. I did point out that -- definitely that the
`most important ones that were missing.
`BY MR. YAGURA:
`Q.
`So are you saying that there's some claim
`limitations that may be still missing from the prior art
`references that you did not point out in your report?
`A.
`It might have happened. I tried to be as
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`Transcript of Rafael Betancourt-Zamora
`Conducted on January 21, 2020
`
`23
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`thorough as possible, but the standard was that if at
`least one limitation was missing, then there was no
`anticipation. So I did not have to look for each and
`every one of them necessarily, even though I tried.
`Q.
`So in other words, you're saying that you kind
`of picked -- you picked and chose specific limitations
`and determined whether they're missing, but you have no
`opinions as to the other limitations?
`MR. DAVIS: Objection. Form.
`BY MR. YAGURA:
`Q.
`Is that your testimony, sir?
`A.
`Not necessarily. No, not true. My testimony
`is that I looked at all of them and I documented the
`limitations that I identified. I tried to be as
`thorough as possible in identifying all the limitations
`that I believed were missing, but there might be some
`other that are also missing and I might have missed,
`but --
`Betancourt Exhibit 1 is -- does that fully and
`Q.
`accurately capture your opinions on validity in this
`case?
`A.
`Q.
`errors?
`A.
`
`My own expert report, yes, it does.
`In reviewing your report, did you find any
`
`Reviewing my own report multiple times, no, I
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`24
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`haven't found any errors. I looked for -- maybe there
`is a typo somewhere, but I did not find any, and I read
`it a few times after it was submitted.
`Q.
`Okay. So basically you stand on your expert
`report, Betancourt Exhibit 1, today; correct?
`A.
`Yeah. If you found an error, you might want to
`point it out, that's fine, but I didn't see any.
`Q.
`Have you ever had a prior consulting
`relationship with Neodron or its principals?
`A.
`No.
`Q.
`Have you had a prior consulting relationship
`with Microchip or its principals?
`A.
`No.
`Q.
`Have you had a prior consulting relationship
`with Russ, August & Kabat?
`A.
`No.
`Q.
`Do you regard yourself as one of ordinary skill
`in the art at the time that the '580 patent was filed
`under either parties' definition or the Court's
`decision?
`I was a person -- at least a person of ordinary
`A.
`skill in the art at that time.
`Q.
`Do you characterize yourself as something
`different than one of ordinary skill in the art at the
`time the '580 patent was filed?
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`25
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`I was at least meeting the definition of a
`A.
`person of ordinarily skilled in the art. I was somewhat
`more experienced, but I worked, I hired, and I managed
`people of ordinary skill in the art doing touch
`controller design. So I know exactly. That's what I
`did at the time.
`Q.
`Do you claim to be a person of extraordinary
`skill in the art at the time the '580 patent was filed?
`MR. DAVIS: Objection. Form.
`THE WITNESS: What do you mean by
`"extraordinary"?
`BY MR. YAGURA:
`Q.
`Have you ever heard the term "extraordinary" --
`"one of extraordinary skill in the art"?
`A.
`I have heard the term. I just wanted to know
`what you mean by that.
`Q.
`What do you understand the term to mean?
`A.
`At the time I had more experience than someone
`defined as ordinarily skilled in the art because that
`person would have been right out of college with a
`couple of years. In my case, I was -- had a few more
`years in the touch field in addition to my degrees. So
`I was beyond -- beyond someone skilled in the art,
`ordinarily skilled in the art. Is that extraordinary or
`not, that may be an opinion, but you might think that's
`
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