In the Matter Of:
`FITBIT INC. vs
`
`PHILIPS NORTH AMERICA LLC
`
`THOMAS MARTIN, M.D.
`April 05, 2021
`
`Fitbit, Inc. v. Philips North America LLC
`IPR2020-00783
`
`Fitbit, Inc. Ex. 1076 Page 0001
`
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`Thomas Martin, M.D. - April 05, 2021Thomas Martin, M.D. - April 05, 2021
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`· · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`· · · _______________________________________
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`· · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`· · · _______________________________________
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`· · · · · · · · · · FITBIT INC.
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`· ·
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`· · · · · · · · · · Petitioner
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`· ·
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`· · · · · · · · · · · · v.
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`· ·
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`· · · · · · ·PHILIPS NORTH AMERICA LLC
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`· · · · · · · · · ·Patent owner
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`· · · · ·________________________________
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`· · · · · · · · · ·IPR2020-00783
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`· · · · · · ·Patent No. 7,088,233 B2
`
`· · · · ________________________________
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`· · REMOTE EXAMINATION of THOMAS MARTIN, M.D.
`
`· · · · · _______________________________
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`· · · · · · · · · · · TAKEN ON
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`· · · · · · · · MONDAY, APRIL 5, 2021
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`CERTIFIED STENOGRAPHER:
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`· ·
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`· JESSIE WAACK, RDR, CRR, CCRR, CCR-NJ, CSR-WA,
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`· NYACR, NYRCR, REALTIME SYSTEMS ADMINISTRATOR
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`· · · · · · A P P E A R A N C E S
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`ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER:
`
`· · ·PAUL HASTINGS LLP
`
`· · ·BY:· DAVID OKANO, ESQ.
`
`· · ·BY:· BERKELEY FIFE, ESQ.
`
`· · ·1117 South California Avenue
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`· · ·Palo Alto, California· 94304-1106
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`· · ·PHONE:· 650-320-1855
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`· · ·EMAIL:· Davidokano@paulhastings.com
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`· · ·EMAIL:· Berkeleyfife@paulhastings.com
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`· · · · · -and-
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`· · ·PAUL HASTINGS LLP
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`· · ·BY:· JOSEPH E PALYS, ESQ.
`
`· · ·2050 M Street NW
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`· · ·Washington, DC· 200365
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`· · ·PHONE:· 202-551-1996
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`· · ·EMAIL:· Josephpalys@paulhastings.com
`
`ON BEHALF OF THE PATENT OWNER:
`
`· · ·FOLEY & LARDNER LLP
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`· · ·BY:· RUBEN J. RODRIGUES, ESQ.
`
`· · ·111 Huntington Avenue, Suite 2500
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`· · ·Boston, Massachusetts· 02199-7610
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`· · ·PHONE:· 617-502-3228
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`· ·
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`· JOB NO.:· 784491
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`· · · · · REMOTE EXAMINATION of THOMAS
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`MARTIN, M.D., taken before
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`JESSICA R. WAACK, Registered Professional
`
`Reporter, Registered Merit Reporter,
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`Certified Realtime Reporter, Registered
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`Diplomate Reporter, California Certified
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`Realtime Reporter, Certified Court Reporter
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`in New Jersey, Certified Shorthand Reporter
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`in Washington, New York Association
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`Certified Reporter, New York Realtime Court
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`Reporter and Notary Public of the State of
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`New York, all participants attending
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`remotely, on Monday, April 5, 2021,
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`commencing at 9:34 a.m. EDT and concluding
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`at 6:36 p.m. EDT.
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`· · ·EMAIL:· Rrodrigues@foley.com
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`REMOTE APPEARANCES CONTINUED:
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`ON BEHALF OF FITBIT IN A RELATED MATTER:
`
`· · ·DESMARAIS LLP
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`· · ·BY:· BRIAN D. MATTY, ESQ.
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`· · ·230 Park Avenue
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`· · ·New York, New York· 10169
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`· · ·PHONE:· 212-808-2947
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`· · ·EMAIL:· Bmatty@desmaraisllp.com
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`ON BEHALF OF GARMIN IN A RELATED MATTER:
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`· · ·ERISE IP P.S.
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`· · ·BY:· HUNTER HORTON, ESQ.
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`· · ·7015 College Boulevard, Suite 700
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`· · ·Overland Park, Kansas· 66211
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`· · ·PHONE:· 913-777-5600
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`· · ·EMAIL:· Hunter.horton@eriselp.com
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`ON BEHALF OF GARMIN IN A RELATED MATTER:
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`· · ·LAMKIN IP DEFENSE
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`· · ·BY:· RACHAEL D. LAMKIN, ESQ.
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`· · ·100 Pine Street, Suite 1250
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`· · ·San Francisco, California· 94111
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`· · ·PHONE:· 916-747-6091
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`· · ·EMAIL:· Rdl@LamkinIPDefense.com
`
`
`www.LexitasLegal.com/Premierwww.LexitasLegal.com/Premier
`Fitbit, Inc. v. Philips North America LLC
`IPR2020-00783
`
`
`
`LexitasLexitas
`
`888-267-1200· · ·
`Fitbit, Inc. Ex. 1076 Page 0002
`
`YVer1f
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`

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`Thomas Martin, M.D. - April 05, 2021Thomas Martin, M.D. - April 05, 2021
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`· · · · · ·A L S O· ·P R E S E N T
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`DEANE CARSTENSEN, videographer/doc tech
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`· · ·INDEX TO PREVIOUSLY MARKED EXHIBITS
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`· · · · WITNESS:· THOMAS MARTIN, M.D.
`
`· · · · · · Monday, April 5, 2021
`
`· MARKED· · · · · ·DESCRIPTION· · · · ·PAGE
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`Exhibit 1001· U.S. Patent 7,088,233· · ·11
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`Exhibit 1005· U.S. Patent 6,918,394· · ·11
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`Exhibit 1006· U.S. Patent 6,175,752· · ·12
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`Exhibit 1075· Plaintiff Philips North· 232
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`· · · · · · · America LLC’S L.R.
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`· · · · · · · 16.6(d)(1) disclosures
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`Exhibit 2026· Dr. Martin's declaration· 12
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`· · · · · ·INDEX TO EXAMINATION
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`· · · ·WITNESS:· THOMAS MARTIN, M.D.
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`EXAMINATION· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
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`· ·BY MR. OKANO· · · · · · · · · · · · · 8
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`· · · · · · · · · ·-o0o-
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`· · · · · ·INFORMATION REQUESTED
`
`· · · · · · · · · ·None
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`· · ·WITNESS INSTRUCTED NOT TO ANSWER
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`· · · · · · · · · ·None
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`** All original exhibits were attached to
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`· · · · the original transcript **
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`· · · · · · · · · ·******
`· · · · · · · · ·PROCEEDINGS
`· · · · · April 5, 2021, 9:34 a.m.
`· · · · · · ·New York, New York
`· · · · · · · · · · *****
`· · · · · · ·THOMAS MARTIN, PhD
`· · · · · called as a witness herein,
`· · · · · having been first duly sworn on
`· · · · · oath, was examined and testified
`· · · · · as follows:
`· · · · · · · · · ·*****
`· · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION
`BY MR. OKANO:
`· · ·Q.· ·Good morning, Dr. Martin.
`· · ·A.· ·Good morning.
`· · ·Q.· ·This is David Okano for
`Petitioner Fitbit Inc.· With me is our --
`are Joseph Palys also from Paul Hastings,
`Brian Matty, and we may have someone else
`joining us.· If she does, I will announce
`at the time.
`· · · · · Dr. Martin, could you state and
`spell your name for the record.
`· · ·A.· ·My name is Thomas Leonard Martin.
`T-h-o-m-a-s.· L-e-o-n-a-r-d.· Martin,
`
`
`www.LexitasLegal.com/Premierwww.LexitasLegal.com/Premier
`Fitbit, Inc. v. Philips North America LLC
`IPR2020-00783
`
`
`
`LexitasLexitas
`
`888-267-1200· · ·
`Fitbit, Inc. Ex. 1076 Page 0003
`
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`

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`Thomas Martin, M.D. - April 05, 2021Thomas Martin, M.D. - April 05, 2021
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`M-a-r-t-i-n.
`· · ·Q.· ·And what is your address, home
`address, please.
`· · ·A.· ·502 Stonegate Drive, Blacksburg,
`Virginia, 20460.
`· · ·Q.· ·And, Dr. Martin, you are employed
`where?
`· · ·A.· ·By Virginia Tech.
`· · ·Q.· ·You understand -- sorry.· In what
`department are you employed by Virginia
`Tech?
`· · ·A.· ·Electrical and computer
`engineering.
`· · ·Q.· ·And what is your title at
`Virginia Tech?
`· · ·A.· ·I'm a professor -- I'm sorry.
`I'm a professor.
`· · ·Q.· ·Dr. Martin, you understand today
`that you are under oath?
`· · ·A.· ·Yes, I do.
`· · ·Q.· ·Is there anything today that
`would prevent you from giving truthful and
`honest testimony?
`· · ·A.· ·No.
`· · ·Q.· ·How many times have you been
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`deposed before?
`· · ·A.· ·Two times.
`· · ·Q.· ·And what -- can you tell me what
`matters those depositions occurred in?
`· · ·A.· ·They were related to this case.
`· · ·Q.· ·And "this case" you're talking
`about Philips' lawsuit against Fitbit in
`the district court?
`· · · · · MR. RODRIGUES:· Objection to
`· · ·form.
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· Actually, I think
`· · ·one was Fitbit and one was Garmin.
`BY MR. OKANO:
`· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So you have been deposed
`once in a case between Philips and Fitbit
`in the district court and once in a case
`between Philips and Garmin in a district
`court?
`· · ·A.· ·I believe that's correct, yes.
`· · ·Q.· ·And when did the depositions
`occur?
`· · ·A.· ·The first one was last June, last
`summer.· And the second one was last month.
`· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· In this deposition I'm
`going to use some shorthand.· So before we
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`go in, I want to make sure we can all agree
`that we know what -- you know, when I refer
`in shorthand to an exhibit or a document,
`we can all agree what I'm referring to.· Is
`that going to be all right with you?
`· · ·A.· ·That's fine with me.
`· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Well, let's start with
`some of the shorthand.
`· · · · · Exhibit 1002 in this case -- let
`me make sure I have this right.· Now,
`apologies.· Exhibit 1001 in this case is
`U.S. Patent No. 7,088,233.· Are you
`familiar with Exhibit 1001?
`· · ·A.· ·The '233 patent, yes.
`· · ·Q.· ·Yes.· And so in this deposition
`if I refer to the '233 patent, will you
`understand that I'm referring to
`Exhibit 1001?
`· · ·A.· ·Yes.· And I'm smiling, because I
`nodded and I know better than to nod.
`· · · · · Sorry, Jessie.
`· · ·Q.· ·The -- I guess there is an
`Exhibit 1005 that is a reference to an
`inventor named Jacobsen that is U.S. Patent
`No. 6,918,394.· If I call that Jacobsen,
`
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`will you understand that I'm referring to
`Exhibit 1005?
`· · ·A.· ·Yes, I will.
`· · ·Q.· ·And Exhibit 1006 in this
`proceeding is a U.S. Patent with a first
`inventor named Say, S-a-y.· It's U.S.
`Patent No. 6,175,752.· And will you
`understand that I'm referring to the Say
`reference when -- I'm referring to 1006
`when I talk about the Say reference?
`· · ·A.· ·Yes.
`· · ·Q.· ·If I say "Fitbit," I'm talking
`about Fitbit Inc.· Is that okay?· Will you
`understand that?
`· · ·A.· ·Yes.
`· · ·Q.· ·And if I say "Philips," I'm
`referring to Philips North America LLC.
`Can we agree to that?
`· · ·A.· ·Yes.
`· · ·Q.· ·And if I'm talking about your
`declaration, that is Exhibit 2026 in this
`proceeding.· Will you understand if I refer
`to your declaration in some form, that we
`were talking about Exhibit 2026 in this
`proceeding?
`
`
`www.LexitasLegal.com/Premierwww.LexitasLegal.com/Premier
`Fitbit, Inc. v. Philips North America LLC
`IPR2020-00783
`
`
`
`LexitasLexitas
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`888-267-1200· · ·
`Fitbit, Inc. Ex. 1076 Page 0004
`
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`

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`Thomas Martin, M.D. - April 05, 2021Thomas Martin, M.D. - April 05, 2021
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`· · ·A.· ·Yes.
`· · ·Q.· ·And if there's -- you know, I
`understand you have submitted other
`declarations.· To the extent I am
`referencing another declaration, I will
`make that clear; is that fair?
`· · ·A.· ·Yes, that's fair.
`· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· And, Dr. Martin, are
`you -- you've been deposed two times.· Are
`you familiar with the ground rules for
`depositions, or do you want me to go over
`them or can we proceed?
`· · ·A.· ·We can proceed.
`· · ·Q.· ·It seems to me that you've done
`at least one deposition over Zoom -- or
`maybe both depositions over Zoom; is that
`correct?
`· · ·A.· ·Yes.· Both depositions have been
`over Zoom.· And actually I should state
`right here, I told Jessie earlier, I have a
`beagle hound mutt upstairs who's going to
`go nuts at some point, so I apologize in
`advance for that.· I can hear him making
`rumbling noises right now.
`· · ·Q.· ·That is fine.· We will
`
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`accommodate the pets.
`· · · · · So I'm going to place in the chat
`paper No. 21 in this proceeding.· And
`that's IPR2020-783.· And take your time to
`download that.
`· · ·A.· ·I've downloaded it.
`· · ·Q.· ·Paper No. 21 is a notice of
`deposition to yourself, Dr. Martin.· Have
`you seen this before, Dr. Martin?
`· · ·A.· ·I don't recall seeing this, no.
`· · ·Q.· ·That's fine.· You're here today,
`so I assume the relevant information was
`conveyed to you nevertheless.
`· · · · · What did you do to prepare for
`this deposition today?
`· · · · · MR. RODRIGUES:· I'm just going to
`· · ·caution the witness not to reveal the
`· · ·substance of any communications with
`· · ·counsel.
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· I reviewed my
`· · ·declaration.· I reviewed some of the
`· · ·documents it referred to, and I met
`· · ·with counsel.
`BY MR. OKANO:
`· · ·Q.· ·And when you say some of the
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`documents you referred to, are you talking
`to exhibits in this proceeding?
`· · ·A.· ·Yes, I am.
`· · ·Q.· ·Did you review any documents that
`are not currently exhibits in this
`proceeding?
`· · ·A.· ·I believe they were all exhibits
`with my declaration.
`· · ·Q.· ·Did you perform any independent
`analysis or review of documents outside of
`anything that was requested by your counsel
`or went over with by your counsel?
`· · · · · MR. RODRIGUES:· Objection to
`· · ·form.
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· I'm sorry.· Can you
`· · ·repeat that again?
`BY MR. OKANO:
`· · ·Q.· ·Did you perform any independent
`analysis or review of any documents outside
`of what you discussed with counsel?
`· · · · · MR. RODRIGUES:· Objection to
`· · ·form.
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· No, not that I
`· · ·recall.
`///
`
`16
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`BY MR. OKANO:
`· · ·Q.· ·Did anything that you reviewed
`during your preparation refresh your
`recollection about something you had not
`remembered at the time?
`· · · · · MR. RODRIGUES:· Objection to
`· · ·form.
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· I'm sorry.
`· · ·Remembered at the time of what?
`BY MR. OKANO:
`· · ·Q.· ·Of your -- that you looked at the
`document.
`· · ·A.· ·Yes.· I mean, it had been a while
`since my declaration had been submitted;
`so...
`· · ·Q.· ·What refreshed -- what, in
`particular, refreshed your recollection?
`Do you recall?
`· · ·A.· ·I mean, it's like I said, it had
`been a while since I submitted the
`declaration, so re-reading it brought it
`back to mind.· I hadn't thought about it
`for a while.· It would be hard for me to
`give particulars.
`· · ·Q.· ·Anything in particular -- I mean,
`
`
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`Fitbit, Inc. v. Philips North America LLC
`IPR2020-00783
`
`
`
`LexitasLexitas
`
`888-267-1200· · ·
`Fitbit, Inc. Ex. 1076 Page 0005
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`Thomas Martin, M.D. - April 05, 2021Thomas Martin, M.D. - April 05, 2021
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`understanding that you can't give
`particulars to everything, was there
`anything in particular that was refreshed
`by reading your declaration?
`· · ·A.· ·No, not off the top of my head.
`· · ·Q.· ·And with the caveat that I'm not
`seeking the substance of any communication
`with your counsel, were you given any
`document, other than your declaration, to
`review during prep?
`· · ·A.· ·No.
`· · ·Q.· ·Did you review materials that had
`been prepared for the district court
`litigation in preparing for this
`deposition?
`· · ·A.· ·No.· I only looked at the
`declaration and the documents it referred
`to.
`· · ·Q.· ·So you did not look at any
`infringement contentions or invalidity
`contentions in any of the district court
`litigation cases?
`· · · · · MR. RODRIGUES:· Objection to
`· · ·form.
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· Not that I recall.
`
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`· · ·Unless they were referred to in the
`· · ·declaration.
`BY MR. OKANO:
`· · ·Q.· ·During preparation for this
`deposition, who did you speak with?
`· · ·A.· ·I spoke with counsel
`Mr. Rodrigues.
`· · ·Q.· ·Anyone else?
`· · ·A.· ·No.
`· · ·Q.· ·How many days did you talk
`with -- I mean, sorry.· That's not a good
`question.· Withdrawn.
`· · · · · How many times did you meet with
`Mr. Rodrigues to prepare for this
`deposition?
`· · ·A.· ·Once.
`· · ·Q.· ·For about how long did you meet
`with Mr. Rodrigues?
`· · ·A.· ·It was about two hours.
`· · ·Q.· ·Do you recall about when you were
`first asked by Philips to begin work on
`this IPR?
`· · ·A.· ·I don't remember off the top of
`my head.· I'd have to look back in my
`notes.· I want to say it was December.
`
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`· · ·Q.· ·December of 2020?
`· · ·A.· ·Yes.
`· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· Let me put into the chat
`Exhibit -- this is paper -- sorry, Exhibit
`No. 2026 in this proceeding.· This is the
`declaration of Dr. Thomas Martin.
`· · · · · This is what I will refer to as
`your declaration that we agreed earlier.
`And feel free to have this out.· I'm not
`trying to make this a memory test.
`· · · · · You recognize Exhibit 2026 as the
`declaration that you submitted in this
`proceeding, correct?
`· · · · · And you can wait to answer until
`you've looked and downloaded it.
`· · ·A.· ·I've downloaded it.· It appears
`to be my declaration, yes.
`· · ·Q.· ·So going and kind of looking at
`the background section of your declaration
`and that's kind of under this Section 2,
`Qualifications, are you -- do you recall
`these sections of your declaration?
`· · ·A.· ·So you're saying Section 2 on
`page 1, beginning --
`· · ·Q.· ·Beginning on page 1, yes,
`
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`paragraph 3.· I guess paragraph -- you use
`paragraph numbers.· We're talking about
`paragraph 3 to 14 of your declaration.
`· · ·A.· ·And, I'm sorry.· I forgot what
`your original question was now.
`· · ·Q.· ·You recall, you know, being
`involved in the preparation of paragraphs 3
`to 14 of your declaration, correct?
`· · ·A.· ·Yes.
`· · ·Q.· ·And it is your opinion that at
`the relevant time frame, and let's just put
`a date, say by at least 1998, that you
`would have been a person of ordinary skill
`in the art or known what a person of
`ordinary skill in the art would have
`understood either under your definition or
`Fitbit's definition; is that fair to say?
`· · · · · MR. RODRIGUES:· Objection to
`· · ·form.
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· Yes, that's fair to
`· · ·say.
`BY MR. OKANO:
`· · ·Q.· ·And let me add another shorthand.
`If I say "POSITA," will you understand that
`I'm referring to a person having ordinary
`
`
`www.LexitasLegal.com/Premierwww.LexitasLegal.com/Premier
`Fitbit, Inc. v. Philips North America LLC
`IPR2020-00783
`
`
`
`LexitasLexitas
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`888-267-1200· · ·
`Fitbit, Inc. Ex. 1076 Page 0006
`
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`Thomas Martin, M.D. - April 05, 2021Thomas Martin, M.D. - April 05, 2021
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`skill in the art?
`· · ·A.· ·Yes, I will.· I just caught
`myself nodding again.
`· · · · · Sorry, Jessie.
`· · ·Q.· ·If I refer to the relevant time
`frame, will you understand that I'm
`referring to at least around the year 1998,
`but in reality the earliest priority date
`that Philips agrees applies to each
`particular claim?
`· · ·A.· ·Yes.· That's fine.
`· · ·Q.· ·Okay.· So at the relevant time
`frame, had you yourself used portable
`devices with sensors that could communicate
`with other devices wirelessly?
`· · · · · MR. RODRIGUES:· Objection to
`· · ·form.
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· Yes, I had.
`BY MR. OKANO:
`· · ·Q.· ·And what are -- what portable
`devices had you used?
`· · ·A.· ·Laptop computers, wearables that
`we had built while I was in grad school at
`Carnegie Mellon.· Devices like that.
`· · ·Q.· ·And can you describe the
`
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`wearables that you had built while in grad
`school at Carnegie Mellon?
`· · ·A.· ·So the first -- the wearable that
`I was brought to Carnegie Mellon to work on
`originally was called the Navigator 1.· And
`I arrived at Carnegie Mellon in 1992.
`· · · · · And the Navigator 1 had a couple
`of purposes.· The first purpose was as a
`campus tour guide.· And so it had
`continuous speech -- speech recognition.
`It had a heads-up display.· You could talk
`to it and say things like "Show me the way
`to Wean Hall," and it had a map of campus.
`It would show you the way there.· It would
`show you things when you spoke to it and
`asked it questions.
`· · · · · The other application was an
`application for Boeing to do wiring
`harnesses with a heads-up display.· So
`Boeing was -- Boeing was responsible for
`that application, but we were building the
`hardware.· We gave them a set of the
`hardware for that.
`· · · · · I worked -- also worked on
`various other wearables that were designed
`
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`in the time I was in graduate school at
`Carnegie Mellon.
`· · ·Q.· ·The application for Boeing you
`said was wiring harnesses.· What's a wiring
`harness?
`· · ·A.· ·So on a -- it turns out every --
`basically the wiring harness is just the
`point-to-point connections of electrical
`wires for the airplane.· And it turns out
`those are basically custom for every
`airplane depending upon the customer's
`order.· Or at least at the time that was
`true.
`· · ·Q.· ·And how is this a -- I guess
`what -- how is this a wearable device?
`· · ·A.· ·So the --
`· · · · · MR. RODRIGUES:· Objection to
`· · ·form.
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· So the Navigator
`· · ·had a -- you'll probably laugh given
`· · ·the technology these days, but we had
`· · ·a -- we had a single board computer in
`· · ·a -- in a box that we had a -- you wore
`· · ·it as a -- basically a vest.
`· · · · · We had a wearable harness that
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`· · ·was built by a local backpack maker.
`· · ·And we had the electronics and
`· · ·batteries in that harness, and you wore
`· · ·it around.· And like I said, it had a
`· · ·heads-up display.· You wore the
`· · ·heads-up display around your forehead.
`BY MR. OKANO:
`· · ·Q.· ·I see.· So the wearable aspect
`was both a -- kind of a vest/backpack and
`something you -- an apparatus that you
`placed on your head?
`· · ·A.· ·Yes.
`· · ·Q.· ·And a POSITA at the time would
`have understood that, you know, portable
`wearable devices that could communicate
`wirelessly were available and being worked
`on at the time?
`· · · · · MR. RODRIGUES:· Objection to
`· · ·form.
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· Yes.· In the time
`· · ·that you're referring to -- I'm sorry.
`· · ·Earlier we said the time was 1998.· So
`· · ·I assume that's still the time you're
`· · ·referring to.· So yes.
`///
`
`
`www.LexitasLegal.com/Premierwww.LexitasLegal.com/Premier
`Fitbit, Inc. v. Philips North America LLC
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`
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`Thomas Martin, M.D. - April 05, 2021Thomas Martin, M.D. - April 05, 2021
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`BY MR. OKANO:
`· · ·Q.· ·That's correct.
`· · · · · Did any of the devices that
`you -- portable wearable devices that you
`worked on secure data using encryption or
`passwords?
`· · · · · MR. RODRIGUES:· Objection to
`· · ·form.
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· I'd have to think
`· · ·back, but I'm pretty sure for the
`· · ·Navigator we had a password to log in
`· · ·for some aspects of it.
`BY MR. OKANO:
`· · ·Q.· ·And when you say "some aspects of
`it," what do you mean?
`· · ·A.· ·It's been almost 30 years, so my
`recollection is going to be a little hazy.
`But my recollection is that for the -- for
`the actual tour guide application, you
`turned it on, and it just started up.
`· · · · · But if you wanted to go in to
`do -- to change files or things like that,
`to change the application, you had to log
`in with a password.
`· · ·Q.· ·So some functions of the
`
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`Navigator were available for use by anyone,
`and some functions, in order to use them,
`you had to log in successfully?
`· · · · · MR. RODRIGUES:· Objection to
`· · ·form.
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· Yes.· That's
`· · ·correct.
`BY MR. OKANO:
`· · ·Q.· ·What other security techniques --
`so sorry.
`· · · · · So you mentioned passwords on the
`Navigator 1.· Were there any security means
`of securing data on the Boeing harness?
`· · · · · MR. RODRIGUES:· Objection to
`· · ·form.
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· So sorry.· And I
`· · ·wouldn't refer to it as the Boeing
`· · ·harness.· Like I said, we built the
`· · ·hardware for them.· Boeing did the
`· · ·application.
`· · · · · So I don't know what they -- once
`· · ·we gave them the hardware, I don't
`· · ·know -- we didn't do the application
`· · ·for Boeing, so I assume you're
`· · ·referring to the Navigator hardware
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`· · ·that I was referring to earlier.
`BY MR. OKANO:
`· · ·Q.· ·No.· So the -- you said the --
`you worked on the software for the harness.
`Or was that -- no, you worked on the
`hardware for the harness; is that correct?
`· · ·A.· ·So sorry.· Let's make sure we're
`referring to the same thing here.· I talked
`about a Navigator wearable computer.
`· · ·Q.· ·That's correct.
`· · ·A.· ·That was the one.· So I worked on
`the hardware design of that.· There was
`also some of the software that I worked on
`for that.
`· · · · · But our application was this
`campus tour guide, we gave -- we gave a
`copy of the hardware of the wearable to
`Boeing, and they put their own application
`on it.
`· · · · · So I wasn't involved with any of
`the software for the Boeing wiring harness
`application.· We just gave them the
`hardware for that.· Sorry if that wasn't
`clear earlier.
`· · ·Q.· ·I see.· That's fair.
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`· · · · · You said you'd worked on some
`other wearable applications; is that
`correct?
`· · ·A.· ·At CMU, yes.· But it was mainly
`on the hardware side of the other wearable.
`· · ·Q.· ·On the other applications --
`wearable applications that you worked on,
`did you employ ways of securing data on
`those other applications?
`· · · · · MR. RODRIGUES:· Objection.
`· · ·Simply because on my end the question
`· · ·cut out and I couldn't hear what was
`· · ·said.· I don't know if anyone else had
`· · ·a similar problem.
`· · · · · MR. OKANO:· I'm happy to repeat
`· · ·the question.
`BY MR. OKANO:
`· · ·Q.· ·On the other applications you
`worked on at CMU, not -- other than the
`Navigator, did you employ ways to secure,
`you know, the data transmitted on those
`applications?
`· · · · · MR. RODRIGUES:· Objection to
`· · ·form.
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· I don't recall.
`
`
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`Thomas Martin, M.D. - April 05, 2021Thomas Martin, M.D. - April 05, 2021
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`BY MR. OKANO:
`· · ·Q.· ·At the relevant time frame, what
`security techniques would a POSITA have
`understood to be used to secure data, you
`know, being transmitted to and from
`wireless devices --
`· · · · · MR. RODRIGUES:· Objection to
`· · ·form.
`BY MR. OKANO:
`· · ·Q.· ·-- or portable wearable devices?
`· · · · · MR. RODRIGUES:· Objection to
`· · ·form.
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· So you -- you would
`· · ·have -- a POSITA would have understood
`· · ·to encrypt the data while it's being
`· · ·transmitted so it can't be eavesdropped
`· · ·by somebody who is listening.
`· · · · · ·And as I said with the
`· · ·Navigator, if there's certain functions
`· · ·that you wanted some people to have and
`· · ·not other people to have certain
`· · ·capabilities, you would have protected
`· · ·that with some form of authentication
`· · ·and authorization so that -- such as
`· · ·with a password so that not everybody
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`· · ·would have access to that
`· · ·functionality.
`BY MR. OKANO:
`· · ·Q.· ·Any other ways?
`· · ·A.· ·Depending upon what you were
`worried about, you might have checked to
`see if things had been tampered with.· So
`you'd like to know, for instance, that the
`application is what you think it is.
`· · · · · And, again, depending upon what
`the application is, you'd like to know, you
`know, is that something that's authentic --
`a message that's authentic that says what
`it purports to be.
`· · · · · Those would be a few others that
`I could think of.
`· · ·Q.· ·And when you say "I could think
`of," you're saying that you could think of
`that a POSITA would have understood at
`that -- at that time frame, correct?
`· · · · · MR. RODRIGUES:· Objection to
`· · ·form.
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· Yes.· At that time,
`· · ·a POSITA at that time.
`///
`
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`BY MR. OKANO:
`· · ·Q.· ·In one of your earlier answers
`you said authentication and authorization.
`How would a POSITA at the relevant time
`frame have understood authentication in
`this context?
`· · ·A.· ·So authentication is generally
`something like who you are, what you know,
`maybe what you have.· So having a password
`is -- an example of, you know, what you
`know is having a password.
`· · · · · If there was some sort of
`physical device that you were required to
`use, that would be something that you have.
`Any sort of biometric would be who -- you
`know, essentially who you are.
`· · ·Q.· ·How would a POSITA at the
`relevant time frame have understood
`authorization in this wearable device
`context?
`· · · · · MR. RODRIGUES:· Objection to
`· · ·form.
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· So a POSITA at that
`· · ·time would have understood
`· · ·authorization to be, okay, you know, I
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`· · ·know who you are, and now knowing who
`· · ·you are, do you have permission to
`· · ·perform this task or use this aspect?
`BY MR. OKANO:
`· · ·Q.· ·And in both your answers for
`authentication and authorization, you kind
`of referred to, I know who you are or
`someone knows who you are.
`· · · · · Who is the person who is knowing
`who you are?
`· · · · · MR. RODRIGUES:· Objection to
`· · ·form.
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· Well, it will be --
`BY MR. OKANO:
`· · ·Q.· ·Well, who or what?· Someone knows
`something about someone.· I'd just like to
`get a little bit more clarity as to what a
`POSITA would have understood with respect
`to the who is knowing who someone is.
`· · ·A.· ·So sorry.· I'm glad you clarified
`with a who or what.· I was sitting there,
`who -- it would be the system that you're
`trying to access.
`· · ·Q.· ·The system you are trying to
`access needs to -- is the entity that is
`
`
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`performing the authentication and is the
`entity that's performing the authorization?
`· · ·A.· ·If by "entity" when he can
`include a computer system, then, yes.· So,
`for instance, if I log into my computer, if
`you consider that the entity, then, you
`know, the computer's checking the password,
`then, yes.
`· · ·Q.· ·What about -- when you say
`"checking the entity," are we talking here
`about authentication or authorization or
`both?
`· · · · · MR. RODRIGUES:· Objection to
`· · ·form.
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· Both.· I'm talking
`· · ·about a computer system.
`BY MR. OKANO:
`· · ·Q.· ·So the computer system is the --
`is what is performing the authentication
`and the authorization, and that's what a
`POSITA would have understood at the
`relevant time frame?
`· · · · · MR. RODRIGUES:· Objection to
`· · ·form.
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· Yes.· I believe
`
`34
`
`· · ·that's correct.
`BY MR. OKANO:
`· · ·Q.· ·Dr. Martin, do you own any Fitbit
`devices?
`· · ·A.· ·Yes, I do.
`· · ·Q.· ·Which ones do you own?
`· · ·A.· ·I have an Ionic and a Sense and
`there's a third one, and I don't know.· I'd
`have to look and see what it's called.
`· · ·Q.· ·Is it a watch style device or is
`it a band style device or is it, you know,
`a -- something smaller than that?
`· · ·A.· ·The Ionic is a watch.· The Sense
`is a watch.· The third one, I'd have to
`look at it.· I think it's a band.
`· · · · · MR. RODRIGUES:· Mr. --
`BY MR. OKANO:
`· · ·Q.· ·Have you used any Fitbit devices
`before Philips approached you?
`· · ·A.· ·Sorry.
`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· Ruben, you started
`· · ·to say something, before I respond to
`· · ·David.
`· · · · · MR. RODRIGUES:· It's okay.· Keep
`· · ·going.· I'll raise it in a second.
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`· · · · · THE WITNESS:· Okay.· Sorry.· And
`· · ·the question was had I used any Fitbit
`· · ·devices before Philips -- I didn't
`· · ·catch the end of it, David.· Sorry.
`BY MR. OKANO:
`· · ·Q.· ·Has Philips approached you or
`worked on any of the matters in which
`you've been retained?
`· · ·A.· ·I didn't own any.· I think I used
`them at conferences, expositions, things
`like that.
`· · · · · MR. RODRIGUES:· Mr. Okano, would
`· · ·you mind if we take a quick break? I
`· · ·have a little situation that I