UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`SNAP INC.,
`
`Petitioner
`
`v.
`
`BLACKBERRY LIMITED
`
`Patent Owner
`
`Patent No. 8,825,084
`
`and
`
`Patent No. 8,326,327
`
`DEPOSITION OF
`
`SAMRAT BHATTACHARJEE, PH.D.
`
`875 15TH STREET, NORTHWEST, SUITE 10
`
`WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005
`
`NOVEMBER 18, 2019
`
`JOB NO. 19-85326
`
`Reported by: Cindy L. Sebo, RMR, CRR, RPR, CSR,
`
`CCR, CLR, RSA, LiveDeposition Authorized Reporter
`
`S THE SULLIVAN GROUP
`
`OF COURT REPORTERS
`SULLIVANCOURTREPORTERS.COM
`
`PHCNJE853523386O |3239388750
`
`1
`
`BLACKBERRY 2004
`SNAP, INC. V. BLACKBERRY LIMITED
`|PR2019-00715
`
`1
`
`BLACKBERRY 2004
`SNAP, INC. V. BLACKBERRY LIMITED
`IPR2019-00715
`
`
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`SNAP INC.,
`
`Petitioner
`
`v.
`
`BLACKBERRY LIMITED
`
`Patent Owner
`
`Patent No. 8,825,084
`
`and
`
`Patent No. 8,326,327
`
`DEPOSITION OF
`
`SAMRAT BHATTACHARJEE, PH.D.
`
`875 15TH STREET, NORTHWEST, SUITE 10
`
`WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005
`
`NOVEMBER 18, 2019
`
`JOB NO. 19-85326
`
`Reported by: Cindy L. Sebo, RMR, CRR, RPR, CSR,
`
`CCR, CLR, RSA, LiveDeposition Authorized Reporter
`
`S THE SULLIVAN GROUP
`
`OF COURT REPORTERS
`SULLIVANCOURTREPORTERS.COM
`
`PHCNJE853523386O |3239388750
`
`1
`
`BLACKBERRY 2004
`SNAP, INC. V. BLACKBERRY LIMITED
`|PR2019-00715
`
`1
`
`BLACKBERRY 2004
`SNAP, INC. V. BLACKBERRY LIMITED
`IPR2019-00715
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`·2· · · · · · · · · · · _________________
`
`·3· · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`·4· · · · · · · · · · · _________________
`
`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · · SNAP INC.,
`
`·6· · · · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner
`
`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · v.
`
`·8· · · · · · · · · · · BLACKBERRY LIMITED
`
`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner
`
`10· · · · · · · · · · · _________________
`
`11· · · · · · · · · · ·Patent No. 8,825,084
`
`12· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·and
`
`13· · · · · · · · · · ·Patent No. 8,326,327
`
`14· · · · · · · · · · · _________________
`
`15· · · · · · · · · · · · DEPOSITION OF
`
`16· · · · · · · · ·SAMRAT BHATTACHARJEE, PH.D.
`
`17· · · · · · ·875 15TH STREET, NORTHWEST, SUITE 10
`
`18· · · · · · · · · · WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005
`
`19· · · · · · · · · · · NOVEMBER 18, 2019
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23· ·Reported by:· Cindy L. Sebo, RMR, CRR, RPR, CSR,
`
`24· ·CCR, CLR, RSA, LiveDeposition Authorized Reporter
`
`25· ·JOB NO. 19-85326
`
`2
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · A P P E A R A N C E S:
`
`·2
`
`·3· ·COUNSEL FOR PETITIONER:
`
`·4· ·BY - DAVID OKANO, ESQ.
`
`·5· ·PAUL HASTINGS LLP
`
`·6· ·1117 S. California Avenue
`
`·7· ·Palo Alto, California 94304
`
`·8· ·davidokano@paulhastings.com
`
`·9
`
`10· ·COUNSEL FOR PATENT OWNER:
`
`11· ·BY - NICHOLAS STEPHENS, ESQ.
`
`12· ·FISH & RICHARDSON P.C.
`
`13· ·3200 RBC Plaza
`
`14· ·60 South Sixth Street
`
`15· ·Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402
`
`16· ·nstephens@fr.com
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`3
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · INDEX
`
`·2
`
`·3· ·SAMRAT BHATTACHARJEE, PH.D.
`
`·4· · · ·BY MR. STEPHENS· · · · · · · · · · · · ·4, 105
`
`·5· · · ·BY MR. OKANO· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·102
`
`·6
`
`·7
`
`·8
`
`·9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`4
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · ·P R O C E E D I N G S
`
`·2
`
`·3· · · · · · · · · · · Washington, D.C.
`
`·4· · · · · · · · November 18, 2019; 9:17 a.m.
`
`·5
`
`·6· · · · · · · · · · · · · -· - -
`
`·7· · · · · · · · SAMRAT BHATTACHARJEE, PH.D.,
`
`·8· · · · · after having been first duly sworn, was
`
`·9· · · · · · ·examined and testified as follows:
`
`10· · · · · · · · · · · · · -· - -
`
`11· · · · · · · · · · · · · -· - -
`
`12· · · · · EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PATENT OWNER
`
`13· · · · · · · · · · · · · -· - -
`
`14· ·BY MR. STEPHENS:
`
`15· · · · ·Q.· · Thank you for being here today.
`
`16· · · · · · · ·To start, I'd like to recognize that
`
`17· ·our conversation today is being transcribed by
`
`18· ·the court reporter.· And to make her job easier,
`
`19· ·please ensure that we don't talk over each other.
`
`20· · · · · · · ·So I'll ask a question, give you an
`
`21· ·opportunity to respond.· And once you've
`
`22· ·completed, we'll -- I'll go on with the
`
`23· ·questioning.
`
`24· · · · · · · ·Does that make sense?
`
`25· · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`5
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· And just to stipulate, this
`
`·2· ·single deposition will be applicable to both IPR
`
`·3· ·2019/00714 pertaining to U.S. Patent 8,825,048,
`
`·4· ·and IPR 2019/0071- -- -15 pertaining to
`
`·5· ·U.S. Patent 8,326,327.
`
`·6· · · · · · · ·Do you understand?
`
`·7· · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`·8· · · · · · · ·MR. OKANO:· Counsel for Petitioner,
`
`·9· · · · Snap Inc., agrees with that stipulation.
`
`10· · · · · · · ·MR. STEPHENS:· Thank you.
`
`11· ·BY MR. STEPHENS:
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· · Can you please state your full name?
`
`13· · · · ·A.· · Samrat Bhattacharjee.
`
`14· · · · ·Q.· · And in which city and state do you
`
`15· ·reside?
`
`16· · · · ·A.· · Silver Spring, Maryland.
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· · Where do you currently work?
`
`18· · · · ·A.· · University of Maryland.
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· · Do you understand that you are under
`
`20· ·oath?
`
`21· · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`22· · · · ·Q.· · Is there any reason that you cannot
`
`23· ·give truthful and accurate testimony today?
`
`24· · · · ·A.· · No.
`
`25· · · · ·Q.· · To ensure clarity, I will define
`
`6
`
`
`
`·1· ·several terms that I'll use throughout the
`
`·2· ·deposition.
`
`·3· · · · · · · ·When I use the terms "patent owner"
`
`·4· ·or "BlackBerry," I'm referring to
`
`·5· ·BlackBerry Limited.
`
`·6· · · · · · · ·Do you understand?
`
`·7· · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`·8· · · · ·Q.· · When I use the terms "Petitioner" or
`
`·9· ·"Snap," I'm referring to Snap Inc.
`
`10· · · · · · · ·Do you understand?
`
`11· · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· · When I use the term "'084 patent,"
`
`13· ·I'm referring to U.S. Patent Number 8,825,084.
`
`14· · · · · · · ·Do you understand?
`
`15· · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`16· · · · ·Q.· · When I use the term "'327 patent,"
`
`17· ·I'm referring to U.S. Patent 8,326,327.
`
`18· · · · · · · ·Do you understand?
`
`19· · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`20· · · · ·Q.· · When I use the terms "'084 IPR" or
`
`21· ·"'084 proceeding," I'm referring to IPR
`
`22· ·2019/00714.
`
`23· · · · · · · ·Do you understand?
`
`24· · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`25· · · · ·Q.· · When I use the terms "'327 IPR" or
`
`7
`
`
`
`·1· ·"'327 proceeding," I'm referring to IPR
`
`·2· ·2019/00715.
`
`·3· · · · · · · ·Do you understand?
`
`·4· · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`·5· · · · ·Q.· · When I refer to the "'084 patent,"
`
`·6· ·I'm referring to Snap's IPR petition submitted in
`
`·7· ·IPR 2019/00714.
`
`·8· · · · · · · ·Do you understand?
`
`·9· · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`10· · · · ·Q.· · When I refer to the "'327 petition,"
`
`11· ·I'm referring to Snap's IPR petition submitted in
`
`12· ·IPR 2019/00715.
`
`13· · · · · · · ·Do you understand?
`
`14· · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`15· · · · ·Q.· · When I use the term "Winkler," I am
`
`16· ·referring to U.S. Patent 8,750,906, which has
`
`17· ·been marked Exhibit 1004 in both the '084 IPR and
`
`18· ·the '327 IPR.
`
`19· · · · · · · ·Do you understand?
`
`20· · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`21· · · · ·Q.· · When I use the term "Lemmela," I'm
`
`22· ·referring to U.S. Patent Publication
`
`23· ·2008/0250337, marked Exhibit 1005 in both the
`
`24· ·'084 IPR and the '327 IPR.
`
`25· · · · · · · ·Do you understand?
`
`8
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`·2· · · · ·Q.· · When I use the term "Waldman," I am
`
`·3· ·referring to U.S. Patent publication
`
`·4· ·2011/0199479, marked Exhibit 10011 in IPR
`
`·5· ·2019/00715.
`
`·6· · · · · · · ·Do you understand?
`
`·7· · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`·8· · · · ·Q.· · When I refer to the "'084
`
`·9· ·declaration" or "your '084 declaration," I'm
`
`10· ·referring to your declaration that was submitted
`
`11· ·as Exhibit 1002 in the '084 IPR.
`
`12· · · · · · · ·Do you understand?
`
`13· · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`14· · · · ·Q.· · When I refer to the "'327
`
`15· ·declaration" or "your '327 declaration," I'm
`
`16· ·referring to your declaration that was submitted
`
`17· ·as Exhibit 1002 in IPR 2019/00715.
`
`18· · · · · · · ·Do you understand?
`
`19· · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`20· · · · ·Q.· · And when I use the term "POSITA," I'm
`
`21· ·referring to an acronym for a person of ordinary
`
`22· ·skill in the art at the time of the alleged
`
`23· ·invention.
`
`24· · · · · · · ·Do you understand?
`
`25· · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`9
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q.· · Thank you.
`
`·2· · · · · · · ·Okay.· Can you please describe how
`
`·3· ·you prepared for today's deposition?
`
`·4· · · · ·A.· · I looked at a lot of documents,
`
`·5· ·including all of the documents that we have just
`
`·6· ·provided acronyms for; I looked at, also, the
`
`·7· ·declarations of Dr. McDaniel; I looked at
`
`·8· ·the patent owner's response in both of the IPRs;
`
`·9· ·I looked at the institution decisions; then, of
`
`10· ·course, I looked at the references, and so on.
`
`11· ·And I met with counsel.
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· Beyond any file exhibits that
`
`13· ·have been submitted in the proceeding thus far,
`
`14· ·did you refer to any additional material?
`
`15· · · · · · · ·MR. OKANO:· And -- and,
`
`16· · · · Dr. Bhattacharjee, I just caution you not
`
`17· · · · to reveal the substance of any privileged
`
`18· · · · communication with your attorneys.
`
`19· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I -- I mean, I looked
`
`20· · · · at all of the relevant documents, as I
`
`21· · · · said.
`
`22· ·BY MR. STEPHENS:
`
`23· · · · ·Q.· · Approximately how much time did you
`
`24· ·spend preparing for today's deposition?
`
`25· · · · ·A.· · You know --
`
`10
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · ·MR. OKANO:· I'm --
`
`·2· · · · Dr. Bhattacharjee, I give you the same
`
`·3· · · · caution.
`
`·4· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· -- I would say -- I
`
`·5· · · · don't know -- more than 10 hours.
`
`·6· ·BY MR. STEPHENS:
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· Did you conduct any
`
`·8· ·independent searches, such as searches on the
`
`·9· ·Internet, in preparation for the deposition?
`
`10· · · · ·A.· · No.
`
`11· · · · ·Q.· · When were you first contacted by
`
`12· ·someone on behalf of Snap to work on the IPRs or
`
`13· ·any other matters concerning the '327 or
`
`14· ·'084 patents?
`
`15· · · · · · · ·MR. OKANO:· And I give you the same
`
`16· · · · caution in terms of revealing the
`
`17· · · · substance of any privileged
`
`18· · · · communications.· Anything -- you know,
`
`19· · · · initial contact is -- you can -- you can
`
`20· · · · discuss.
`
`21· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't recall the
`
`22· · · · precise date.· I think it was last year,
`
`23· · · · but I don't recall the precise date.
`
`24· ·BY MR. STEPHENS:
`
`25· · · · ·Q.· · Have you ever previously worked for
`
`11
`
`
`
`·1· ·or performed services on behalf of Snap?
`
`·2· · · · ·A.· · No.
`
`·3· · · · ·Q.· · Are you supporting Snap in any other
`
`·4· ·proceedings besides the '084 IPR and the '327
`
`·5· ·IPR?
`
`·6· · · · · · · ·MR. OKANO:· And, again, I caution
`
`·7· · · · you to not reveal the substance of any
`
`·8· · · · privileged communication with your
`
`·9· · · · attorneys.
`
`10· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I --
`
`11· · · · · · · ·MR. OKANO:· You can answer yes or
`
`12· · · · no.
`
`13· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· -- well, first, you
`
`14· · · · know, I'm an independent expert. I
`
`15· · · · wouldn't say I'm supporting Snap.· I give
`
`16· · · · my opinions, which are my own.
`
`17· · · · · · · ·And beyond this matter, there's
`
`18· · · · nothing else that I've worked on -- or
`
`19· · · · given any opinions for -- on behalf of
`
`20· · · · Snap or -- yeah.
`
`21· ·BY MR. STEPHENS:
`
`22· · · · ·Q.· · To the best of your knowledge, have
`
`23· ·you ever encountered the '084 patent or the
`
`24· ·'327 patent before being contacted to work on
`
`25· ·these IPRs?
`
`12
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·A.· · Not to the best of my knowledge.
`
`·2· · · · ·Q.· · And prior to your work on these IPRs,
`
`·3· ·can you describe your familiarity or experience
`
`·4· ·with any products from Snap?
`
`·5· · · · ·A.· · I knew that the product existed.
`
`·6· ·I -- I may have tested it out or -- I'm not -- I
`
`·7· ·don't use any social media, so it's un- -- I
`
`·8· ·don't have an account or anything, but I knew of
`
`·9· ·the product.
`
`10· · · · ·Q.· · In the time since you prepared your
`
`11· ·two declarations for the '084 IPR and the '327
`
`12· ·IPR, have any of your opinions changed from those
`
`13· ·that you originally provided in the declarations?
`
`14· · · · ·A.· · No.
`
`15· · · · ·Q.· · Are you currently aware of any errors
`
`16· ·that exist in either declaration?
`
`17· · · · ·A.· · No.· I don't think so.
`
`18· · · · ·Q.· · And during your career, approximately
`
`19· ·how many times have you been retained as an
`
`20· ·expert in litigation matters either as a
`
`21· ·testifying expert or a nontestifying expert?
`
`22· · · · ·A.· · I have given you, as part of my CV, a
`
`23· ·list of litigations, and that's the sum total of
`
`24· ·all litigations that I'm -- that I have ever
`
`25· ·worked on.· And those actually include everything
`
`13
`
`
`
`·1· ·in which I've ever been retained.
`
`·2· · · · · · · ·In many cases, I've been retained
`
`·3· ·but then not asked to do anything at all.· And I
`
`·4· ·would expect in most of them, I've not even been
`
`·5· ·deposed --
`
`·6· · · · ·Q.· · Okay.
`
`·7· · · · ·A.· · -- the only thing I will point out is
`
`·8· ·that just recently, I found out that there was
`
`·9· ·one case from 2017 which somehow -- I don't
`
`10· ·know -- due to a version error or something, it's
`
`11· ·not listed on there.· And I can provide an
`
`12· ·updated copy of that litigation.
`
`13· · · · ·Q.· · Do you recall who the parties to that
`
`14· ·litigation were?
`
`15· · · · ·A.· · Yes.· Phillips -- it's Phillips
`
`16· ·versus Microsoft.
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· · And have you ever previously
`
`18· ·submitted a declaration in an inter partes review
`
`19· ·proceeding?
`
`20· · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`21· · · · ·Q.· · Were you deposed in that proceeding?
`
`22· · · · ·A.· · I would expect so, but I can't recall
`
`23· ·precisely off the top of my head.
`
`24· · · · ·Q.· · I'd now like to refer to your '084
`
`25· ·declaration that's Exhibit 1002 in the '084 IPR.
`
`14
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·A.· · In the binder?
`
`·2· · · · ·Q.· · Yeah, it's in the binder.
`
`·3· · · · ·A.· · Okay.
`
`·4· · · · · · · ·Let me try to work with this.
`
`·5· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Would you mind moving
`
`·6· · · · this?
`
`·7· · · · · · · ·MR. OKANO:· Yeah, that's fine.
`
`·8· · · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Thank you.
`
`·9· ·BY MR. STEPHENS:
`
`10· · · · ·Q.· · This would be Tab 1 in the binder.
`
`11· · · · ·A.· · Okay.
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· · Referring to Paragraph 6, you state,
`
`13· ·Since 2009, I have been a tenured professor at
`
`14· ·University of Maryland.
`
`15· · · · · · · ·Can you briefly describe your areas
`
`16· ·of teaching research that you focus on as a
`
`17· ·professor?
`
`18· · · · ·A.· · Sure.
`
`19· · · · · · · ·Just to clarify, as it says in the
`
`20· ·previous paragraph, I received tenure in 2005.
`
`21· ·It's -- I've been a full professor with tenure
`
`22· ·since 2009 --
`
`23· · · · ·Q.· · Okay.
`
`24· · · · ·A.· · -- and my work is on systems,
`
`25· ·security, networking, as it says in the rest of
`
`15
`
`
`
`·1· ·the paragraph, and that includes work on mobile
`
`·2· ·systems, privacy and security, and so on -- and
`
`·3· ·operating systems.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· · Paragraph 6 further states that My
`
`·5· ·teaching and research have focused on all aspects
`
`·6· ·of the technologies pertaining to the
`
`·7· ·'084 patent.
`
`·8· · · · · · · ·Correct?
`
`·9· · · · ·A.· · Yeah, they're sentence fragments;
`
`10· ·but, yes, it does state that.
`
`11· · · · ·Q.· · Yes.
`
`12· · · · · · · ·What did you mean when you refer to
`
`13· ·"all aspects of the technologies pertaining to
`
`14· ·the '084 patent"?
`
`15· · · · ·A.· · So if we take a look at the
`
`16· ·background of the '084 patent, it's describing
`
`17· ·a -- describing the general field of the patent.
`
`18· ·So, for instance, mobile devices, servers,
`
`19· ·sending locations to servers, emergent properties
`
`20· ·due to activities of mobile devices, and so on.
`
`21· ·And I have worked in all of those areas.
`
`22· · · · ·Q.· · Can you describe any experience you
`
`23· ·have in developing, teaching or researching on
`
`24· ·topics related to mapping applications?
`
`25· · · · ·A.· · The -- at the time or . . .
`
`16
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q.· · At any time.
`
`·2· · · · ·A.· · Oh, okay.· Let me just -- so I have
`
`·3· ·done a lot of work on location of devices, not
`
`·4· ·the actual cartography part of it but, certainly,
`
`·5· ·geolocating devices and also locating devices
`
`·6· ·using different methods, including audio
`
`·7· ·location.
`
`·8· · · · · · · ·And, of course, these are mobile
`
`·9· ·devices; otherwise, it's relatively --
`
`10· ·relatively easy to know where they are.· But
`
`11· ·I've done work on geolocating both static
`
`12· ·devices by their addresses and also much finer
`
`13· ·grained location mapping of mobile devices.
`
`14· · · · ·Q.· · Do you have experience working with
`
`15· ·GPS technologies?
`
`16· · · · ·A.· · Not specifically beyond -- I have --
`
`17· ·okay.· So I have specifically worked on actually
`
`18· ·getting data from GPS devices in terms of
`
`19· ·location.· It's one of the things we would
`
`20· ·compare to.· The GPS doesn't work particularly
`
`21· ·well in those, usually.
`
`22· · · · · · · ·The other thing is in my privacy
`
`23· ·work, I do look at being able to turn off GPS in
`
`24· ·a completely assured manner, for instance, so
`
`25· ·that the device cannot be tracked by GPS.
`
`17
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q.· · Can you describe your -- any
`
`·2· ·experience that you may have related to
`
`·3· ·navigation applications?
`
`·4· · · · ·A.· · Let's see.· Not -- I wouldn't say
`
`·5· ·that I have any specific work on navigation. I
`
`·6· ·would consider that, for the most part, to be a
`
`·7· ·solved problem.· And in my research, I don't
`
`·8· ·encounter navigation beyond -- as I said, in some
`
`·9· ·cases, we are geolocating a large number of
`
`10· ·mobile devices in a confined space.
`
`11· · · · · · · ·And then we often have problems of
`
`12· ·symmetry because, you know -- let's say there's
`
`13· ·a speaker, and then I've geolocated 100 devices.
`
`14· ·There might be different planes over which we
`
`15· ·might get the map wrong.· So we have to worry
`
`16· ·about breaking symmetries, which is related to
`
`17· ·navigation, potentially, but I think that's
`
`18· ·about as close as we get.
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· · Are you aware that the '327 patent
`
`20· ·was filed on August 27th, 2010?
`
`21· · · · ·A.· · I believe that's on the face of
`
`22· ·the patent, but I can also confirm it on, I
`
`23· ·guess, Tab 4.
`
`24· · · · ·Q.· · Tab 4?
`
`25· · · · ·A.· · Yes, I see that on the face of
`
`18
`
`
`
`·1· ·the patent, yes.
`
`·2· · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· Were you familiar with any
`
`·3· ·portable navigation devices before August 27th,
`
`·4· ·2010?
`
`·5· · · · ·A.· · I would think so, yes.· GPS
`
`·6· ·devices -- certainly, I own one.
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· · What kind of device do you own?
`
`·8· · · · ·A.· · I own a little Garmin, you know, GPS
`
`·9· ·device.· I think my car had a GPS -- I mean, it's
`
`10· ·portable, I guess -- well, I couldn't carry it
`
`11· ·out of the car, but I certainly knew of
`
`12· ·navigational devices prior to 2010.
`
`13· · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· Was -- was your device -- was
`
`14· ·it integrated in the car, or was it something
`
`15· ·that you brought to the car and mounted in it?
`
`16· · · · ·A.· · I had both.
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· · You had both?
`
`18· · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· · Okay.
`
`20· · · · ·A.· · And I think, by 2010 -- I'm trying to
`
`21· ·think whether the phones had it also, but
`
`22· ·anyway -- I certainly had stand-alone navigation
`
`23· ·devices by 2010.
`
`24· · · · ·Q.· · And the stand-alone navigation
`
`25· ·devices -- did they use GPS technology to
`
`19
`
`
`
`·1· ·determine its current location on earth?
`
`·2· · · · ·A.· · Certainly, some of them did.
`
`·3· · · · ·Q.· · Did some of them not?
`
`·4· · · · ·A.· · Some of them may have been augmented
`
`·5· ·with more than GPS.· Right -- I don't know if the
`
`·6· ·car used more than just GPS --
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· · Okay.
`
`·8· · · · ·A.· · -- but I know that at least for some
`
`·9· ·of them, I'd have to wait for the satellites to
`
`10· ·sync with the device, so they were certainly
`
`11· ·using GPS.
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· · Did your portable navigational
`
`13· ·devices, as far as you are aware, include a
`
`14· ·memory and a processor?
`
`15· · · · ·A.· · I would think they would, yes.
`
`16· · · · ·Q.· · What information would have been
`
`17· ·stored in the memory of a portable navigation
`
`18· ·device before August of 2010?
`
`19· · · · ·A.· · That's a very broad question.
`
`20· · · · · · · ·Certainly, the -- a few programs for
`
`21· ·interfacing with the GPS module on the device
`
`22· ·itself, parts of the map of the space that I was
`
`23· ·in on earth, a program for displaying and
`
`24· ·interacting with the user, and so on.
`
`25· · · · ·Q.· · Were you able to input a destination
`
`20
`
`
`
`·1· ·and have the device determine a route to the
`
`·2· ·destination?
`
`·3· · · · ·A.· · In some cases, yes.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· · When you -- when you input a
`
`·5· ·destination to calculate a route, did the
`
`·6· ·navigation device query a server on a network, or
`
`·7· ·did it perform that processing locally?
`
`·8· · · · ·A.· · I don't know whether -- so I'm trying
`
`·9· ·to remember when my first iPhone was.· I don't
`
`10· ·know if it was before 2010 or not.· I just don't
`
`11· ·recall.
`
`12· · · · · · · ·And, certainly, for something like
`
`13· ·the iPhone and -- back then, I expect -- well,
`
`14· ·it might have been talking to a server.
`
`15· · · · · · · ·Some of the devices were
`
`16· ·stand-alone.· The hand-held ones, I don't
`
`17· ·believe had networking communication that I can
`
`18· ·recall.· The car could have been doing something
`
`19· ·else.· It had the capability to communicate with
`
`20· ·servers.
`
`21· · · · ·Q.· · So the stand-alone ones -- those
`
`22· ·would have had a GPS receiver, correct?
`
`23· · · · ·A.· · I would expect they would, yes.
`
`24· · · · ·Q.· · And they could determine a route to a
`
`25· ·destination using local programs without querying
`
`21
`
`
`
`·1· ·a server?
`
`·2· · · · ·A.· · I mostly actually put in GPS
`
`·3· ·coordinates.· It wasn't actually -- it was -- for
`
`·4· ·geotagging is what I used to use it for.· And,
`
`·5· ·yeah -- it didn't give me turn-by-turn directions
`
`·6· ·that I can recall -- it's been a while -- but it
`
`·7· ·would certainly tell me how far I was and things
`
`·8· ·like that.
`
`·9· · · · ·Q.· · Do you recall when you bought the
`
`10· ·device, was it supplied with maps already stored
`
`11· ·on the device?
`
`12· · · · ·A.· · I think it came with some maps but
`
`13· ·not of the whole world, I don't think.
`
`14· · · · ·Q.· · Sure.
`
`15· · · · · · · ·If you needed to update the maps,
`
`16· ·what would you do on a device that -- on a
`
`17· ·stand-alone device?
`
`18· · · · ·A.· · On a stand-alone device, most
`
`19· ·likely -- I actually don't remember what
`
`20· ·interface it had.· I might have had to plug it
`
`21· ·into USB to get a map or get a new chip with a
`
`22· ·map.
`
`23· · · · ·Q.· · Why would you plug it into USB?
`
`24· · · · ·A.· · In order to get a map from a server.
`
`25· ·But I actually -- frankly, don't remember whether
`
`22
`
`
`
`·1· ·you'd have to just buy a map or whether you had
`
`·2· ·to plug it into a server or both.
`
`·3· · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· Did any of the stand-alone
`
`·4· ·devices have data indicating points of interest
`
`·5· ·on a map?
`
`·6· · · · ·A.· · They might have had.
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· · Would those points of interest have
`
`·8· ·been preloaded on the device when you bought
`
`·9· ·them?
`
`10· · · · ·A.· · Again, I think I had an iPhone by
`
`11· ·then, and that could have been getting it off of
`
`12· ·the -- that could have been getting it off of the
`
`13· ·network.
`
`14· · · · · · · ·The stand-alone ones, I don't recall
`
`15· ·interacting with points of interest, because as
`
`16· ·I told you, I mostly use it for geotagging.
`
`17· ·So . . .
`
`18· · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· When you geotag a location,
`
`19· ·where was the information representing a geotag
`
`20· ·location stored?
`
`21· · · · ·A.· · Well, mostly in my head.· I would
`
`22· ·just type in the latitude and longitude
`
`23· ·coordinates.
`
`24· · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· I'd like to refer again to the
`
`25· ·declaration that you submitted in the '084 IPR.
`
`23
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · · ·On Page 7 of the declaration, you
`
`·2· ·began a section entitled Background of the
`
`·3· ·Relevant Field.
`
`·4· · · · · · · ·Correct?
`
`·5· · · · ·A.· · Correct.
`
`·6· · · · ·Q.· · And in this section, at Paragraph 24,
`
`·7· ·you state, At the time the patent was filed, the
`
`·8· ·basic technology for determining the location of
`
`·9· ·a mobile device was well-known.
`
`10· · · · · · · ·Correct?
`
`11· · · · ·A.· · Correct.
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· · What technologies were you referring
`
`13· ·to that were well-known?
`
`14· · · · ·A.· · All of -- at least the '084, '327 and
`
`15· ·the Winkler patents give a list of different
`
`16· ·technologies, but, certainly, GPS was well-known.
`
`17· · · · · · · ·One could also augment GPS.· We had
`
`18· ·augmented GPS, which -- it is my understanding
`
`19· ·that the satellite signals are augmented with
`
`20· ·signals on terrestrial -- let's say using
`
`21· ·terrestrial stations.
`
`22· · · · · · · ·One could get, certainly by 2010,
`
`23· ·high resolution by looking at the Wi-Fi
`
`24· ·deployments, much like we do today.· And, of
`
`25· ·course, there are other ways of locating devices
`
`24
`
`
`
`·1· ·using radio location, and so on.· Those were
`
`·2· ·also well-known.
`
`·3· · · · ·Q.· · Can you briefly describe how a mobile
`
`·4· ·device that used GPS to determine its location
`
`·5· ·worked?
`
`·6· · · · ·A.· · The -- are you asking about -- I
`
`·7· ·mean -- okay.· At one level, the device has a --
`
`·8· ·a little GPS chip that has an antenna which is
`
`·9· ·tuned to the GPS frequencies, and it receives a
`
`10· ·stream of data from the GPS satellites.· And then
`
`11· ·there's some code within that chip to decode the
`
`12· ·data that the satellites are sending out.
`
`13· · · · · · · ·And depending upon the number of
`
`14· ·satellites it can see, the symmetry, again, is
`
`15· ·broken, so to speak, and then the device is able
`
`16· ·to figure out a precise -- or, you know,
`
`17· ·precision -- depending upon how much data it
`
`18· ·gets and what resolution GPS is being
`
`19· ·transmitted at, the GPS stream is able to get a
`
`20· ·fix on where it is on earth.
`
`21· · · · · · · ·And depending on the chip itself,
`
`22· ·the chip might just give you the actual
`
`23· ·coordinate, or it might give you the stream such
`
`24· ·that the processor on the device can figure out
`
`25· ·the coordinate.
`
`25
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q.· · So, typically, would you expect a --
`
`·2· ·a mobile device that included a GPS chip --
`
`·3· ·the -- the processor would -- the central
`
`·4· ·processor on the device, for example, would
`
`·5· ·communicate with the GPS chip to obtain an
`
`·6· ·indication of the location as identified by the
`
`·7· ·GPS chip?
`
`·8· · · · ·A.· · It would either get raw GPS data or
`
`·9· ·perhaps the actual location.
`
`10· · · · ·Q.· · Or coordinates, perhaps?
`
`11· · · · ·A.· · Coordinates, yes.
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· And it was possible for a
`
`13· ·mobile device to determine its location using GPS
`
`14· ·without connecting to the Internet or a wireless
`
`15· ·communication query, correct?
`
`16· · · · ·A.· · The coordinates do not require
`
`17· ·Internet connectivity --
`
`18· · · · ·Q.· · Okay.
`
`19· · · · ·A.· · -- or receiving the coordinates do
`
`20· ·not require Internet connectivity.
`
`21· · · · ·Q.· · Referring to the '084 declaration
`
`22· ·again, in Paragraph 27, you state that
`
`23· ·Applications that displayed a map, directions or
`
`24· ·bearing were also well-known, and denoting points
`
`25· ·of interest on a display of a mobile device by
`
`26
`
`
`
`·1· ·overlaying information on a map was common.
`
`·2· · · · · · · ·Correct?
`
`·3· · · · ·A.· · Correct.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· · Can you describe some of the
`
`·5· ·well-known applications that displayed a map,
`
`·6· ·direction or bearing before August 27, 2010?
`
`·7· · · · ·A.· · I believe iPhones were available, and
`
`·8· ·the -- I think, back then, they were probably
`
`·9· ·using Google Maps.· But that was a common way to
`
`10· ·do it, to display a map.· And I believe
`
`11· ·directions were also available.
`
`12· · · · · · · ·And these devices also had a compass
`
`13· ·application, and then the map itself would have
`
`14· ·a bearing.· And they had -- there were also
`
`15· ·handheld devices in that time frame -- or let's
`
`16· ·say portable devices -- they could be
`
`17· ·hand-held -- which also had similar
`
`18· ·functionality.
`
`19· · · · ·Q.· · And what were you referring to when
`
`20· ·you stated denoting points of interest?· So what
`
`21· ·kind of points of interest were well-known at the
`
`22· ·time?
`
`23· · · · ·A.· · Gas stations, for instance.· But,
`
`24· ·usually, one could put in a list or -- one could
`
`25· ·select from a list of the type of -- a type of
`
`27
`
`
`
`·1· ·point of interest that was of interest to the
`
`·2· ·user.· And if there was one or more nearby, then
`
`·3· ·the applications would usually be able to show
`
`·4· ·them.
`
`·5· · · · ·Q.· · Okay.
`
`·6· · · · · · · ·Okay.· Referring again to the
`
`·7· ·declaration.· On Page 8 of the '084 declaration
`
`·8· ·begins a section captioned Overview of the
`
`·9· ·'084 Patent.
`
`10· · · · · · · ·Correct?
`
`11· · · · ·A.· · Correct.
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· · And in Paragraph 28 of this section,
`
`13· ·you state, The '084 patent also recognizes that
`
`14· ·prior device users could determine events and
`
`15· ·happenings occurring proximate to a mobile
`
`16· ·device's location and manually compare the
`
`17· ·location of such events to the mobile device's
`
`18· ·location, which could be tedious.
`
`19· · · · · · · ·Correct?
`
`20· · · · ·A.· · Correct.
`
`21· · · · ·Q.· · And you cited Column 3, Lines 11
`
`22· ·through 23 of the '084 patent to support this
`
`23· ·assertion, correct?
`
`24· · · · ·A.· · Correct.
`
`25· · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· Referring to Paragraph 29 of
`
`28
`
`
`
`·1· ·the '084 declaration, you state that The
`
`·2· ·'084 patent explains that an action spot refers
`
`·3· ·to a location or an event where at least one
`
`·4· ·other mobile device engages in activity.
`
`·5· · · · · · · ·Correct?
`
`·6· · · · ·A.· · Correct.
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· · And you cited Column 3, Lines 3 to 5
`
`·8· ·for this description of "action spot," correct?
`
`·9· · · · ·A.· · Correct.
`
`10· · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· Let's turn for a moment to the
`
`11· ·'084 patent, at Column 3, Lines 3 to 5.
`
`12· · · · · · · ·Can you read what the '084 patent
`
`13· ·states about action spot at Column 3, Lines 3 to
`
`14· ·5?
`
`15· · · · ·A.· · The term, in quotes, action spot
`
`16· ·refers to a location or an event where at least
`
`17· ·one activity is occurring relative to the current
`
`18· ·location of another mobile device.
`
`19· · · · · · · ·I should just say that is not the
`
`20· ·only description of action spot; that's just a
`
`21· ·citation that I've given.· And action spots are
`
`22· ·defined and described in various other ways in
`
`23· ·this '08 -- in this patent as well.
`
`24· · · · ·Q.· · So is it fair to say that you were
`
`25· ·aware of and had considered this passage from the
`
`29
`
`
`
`·1· ·'084 patent when you had prepared your
`
`·2· ·declaration?
`
`·3· · · · ·A.· · Certainly.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· · Are there any differences between
`
`·5· ·your description of an action spot at
`
`·6· ·Paragraph 29 of the '084 declaration and the
`
`·7· ·passage from the '084 patent at Column 3, Lines 3
`
`·8· ·to 5?
`
`·9· · · · ·A.· · I mean, I didn't quote the lines, so
`
`10· ·certainly there were differences, as I did not
`
`11· ·write out the lines.
`
`12· · · · ·Q.· · And what differences are there in the
`
`13· ·statement that you provided at Paragraph 29 and
`
`14· ·the description at Column 3, Lines 3 to 5?
`
`15· · · · ·A.· · I mean, I can read them both --
`
`16· · · · ·Q.· · Sure --
`
`17· · · · ·A.· · -- I don't --
`
`18· · · · ·Q.· · -- sure.
`
`19· · · · ·A.· · -- I mean, you want me to read the
`
`20· ·first line of 29 and read the Lines 3 to 5 again?
`
`21· · · · ·Q.· · Yes, please, go ahead.
`
`22· · · · ·A.· · Okay.
`
`23· · · · · · · ·The '084 patent explains that an
`
`24· ·action spot refers to a location or an event
`
`25· ·where at least one other mobile device engages
`
`30
`
`
`
`·1· ·in activity.
`
`·2· · · · · · · ·And Lines 3 to 5 in Column 3 says,
`
`·3· ·The term "action spot" refers to a location or
`
`·4· ·an event where at least one activity is
`
`·5· ·occurring relative to the current location of
`
`·6· ·another mobile device.
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· · So you would agree that at Column 3,
`
`·8· ·Lines 4 to 5, the '084 patent provides in this
`
`·9· ·description that at least the activity is
`
`10· ·occurring relative to the current location of
`
`11· ·another mobile device, correct?
`
`12· · · · ·A.· · That's not the only description of an
`
`13· ·action spot in the '084 patent, but those -- I
`
`14· ·mean, the document says what it says here, and
`
`15· ·I've read it twice.
`
`16· · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· Let's refer to Paragraph 34 --
`
`17· ·excuse me -- Paragraph 30 of your '084
`
`18· ·declaration.
`
`19· · · · · · · ·In Paragraph 30, you state that The
`
`20· ·'084 patent also teaches that action spots may be
`
`21· ·determined within a predetermined distance from a
`
`22· ·mobile device and may correspond to device
`
`23· ·activity occurring within a predetermined period
`
`24· ·of time.
`
`25· · · · · · · ·Correct?
`
`31
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·A.· · That's what the document says,
`
`·2· ·correct.
`
`·3· · · · ·Q.· · And further in Paragraph 30, you
`
`·4· ·state that This predetermined period of time can
`
`·5· ·be any specific time period that's measured from
`
`·6· ·the time the mobile device arrived at the current
`
`·7· ·location.
`
`·8· · · · · · · ·Correct?
`
`·9· · · · ·A.· · Sorry.
`
`10· · · · ·Q.· · The last sentence of Paragraph 30.
`
`11· · · · ·A.· · This predetermined period of time can
`
`12· ·be any specific time period that is measured from
`
`13· ·the time the
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