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`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`Page 1
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`SNAP INC.,
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`Petitioner
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`-v-
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`IPR2019-00714
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`BLACKBERRY LIMITED,
`
`IPR2019-00714
`
`Patent Owner
`
`Patent No. 8,326,327
`
`Patent No. 8,825,084
`
`Pursuant to Notice,
`
`the deposition of SAMRAT
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`BHATTACHARJEE, Ph.D., was taken remotely on Friday,
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`April 10, 2020, commencing at 10:37 a.m., via Zoom,
`
`in
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`Silver Spring, Maryland, before Jacqueline Kimball, a
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`Registered Professional Reporter and Notary Public.
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`Veritext Legal Solutions
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`Mid—Atlantic Region
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`36 S. Charles Street, Suite 2002
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`21201
`Baltimore, MD
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`www.veritext.com
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`Paradigm, A Veritext Company
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`888-391-3 376
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`1
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`BLACKBERRY 2010
`SNAP, INC. V. BLACKBERRY LIMITED
`IPR2019—00715
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`1
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`BLACKBERRY 2010
`SNAP, INC. V. BLACKBERRY LIMITED
`IPR2019-00715
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`APPEARANCES
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`Page 2
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`ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER:
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`CHAD J. PETERMAN, ESQ.,
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`Paul Hastings
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`200 Park Avenue
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`New York, NW 10166
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`(212)318—6797
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`ON BEHALF OF THE PATENT OWNER:
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`NICHOLAS STEPHENS, ESQ.,
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`Fish & Richardson
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`60 South Sixth Street, Suite 3200
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`Minneapolis, MN
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`55402
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`(612)766—2018
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`nstephens@fr.com
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`chadpeterman®paulhastings.com
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`www.veritext.com
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`Page 3
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`INDEX
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`WITNESS NAME: SAMRAT BHATTACHARJEE,
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`PhD
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`EXAMINATION BY MR.
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`STEPHENS
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`EXHIBITS:
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`(NONE)
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`Page 4
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`SAMRAT BHATTACHARJEE, PHD,
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`Called for examination, having been duly sworn to
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`tell the truth,
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`the whole truth and nothing but the
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`truth,
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`testified remotely as follows:
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`PROCEEDINGS
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`MR. STEPHENS:
`
`Thank you for being here
`
`today, Dr. Bhattacharjee. We met as you recall
`
`back in November for your deposition in DC, so
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`good to see you again.
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`I'd like to pause for a
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`moment, and ask Chad on the line to say your
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`name for the record so we have the record of
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`who's on the deposition.
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`MR. PETERMAN: Chad Peterman from Paul
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`Hastings on behalf Snap,
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`Inc. and the witness.
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`MR. STEPHENS: Okay,
`
`thank you. We are
`
`doing this deposition virtually remotely due to
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`the COVID 19 situation.
`
`The parties have
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`agreed to this. Does that sound good to you,
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`Mr. Peterman?
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`MR. PETERMAN: Yes.
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`EXAMINATION
`
`BY MR. STEPHENS:
`
`Q.
`
`If you're unable to hear me,
`
`Dr. Bhattacharjee, or if there's any technical issues,
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`
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`
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`please just let me know, I'll try and correct it. And
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`I'll do the same, okay?
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`A.
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`Yes.
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`Q.
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`Also if you need to take a break don't
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`hesitate to let me know, we'll do so.
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`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Thank you.
`
`Let's get started.
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`Do you understand that
`
`the parties have stipulated this deposition will be
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`applicable to IPR2019-00714,
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`that's the IPR of the 084
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`patents and IPR2019—00715, that's the IPR on the 327
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`patent?
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`A.
`
`Yes,
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`I believe those are the numbers. Yes,
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`I understand that.
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`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`Do you understand that you are under
`
`oath?
`
`A.
`
`Yes.
`
`Q.
`
`Is there any reason you cannot give truthful
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`and accurate testimony today?
`
`A.
`
`No.
`
`Q.
`
`For clarity I'd like to define some of the
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`terms that we'll be using during the questioning.
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`When I use the terms patent owner or BlackBerry I'm
`
`referring to BlackBerry, Limited, you understand?
`
`A.
`
`Yes.
`
`Q.
`
`When I use the terms petitioner or Snap I'm
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`
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`
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`referring to Snap, Inc., okay?
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`Page 6
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`A.
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`Yeah.
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`Q.
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`When I use the term 084 patent I'm referring
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`to U.S. patent 8825084 which is marked Exhibit 1001 in
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`the 084 IPR, okay?
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`A.
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`Yeah,
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`I don't know the full number myself
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`but okay.
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`Q.
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`Yeah, when I use the term 327 patent we'll
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`be referring to U.S. patent 8326327, okay?
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`A.
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`Yes.
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`Q.
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`When we use the term Winkler I'll be
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`referring U.S. patent 8750906 which is marked as
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`Exhibit 1004 in both IPRs, you understand?
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`A.
`
`Yes.
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`Q.
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`When I use the term Lemmela, I'll be
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`referring to U.S. patent application of 20080250337
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`which is marked as Exhibit 1005 in both IPRs, do you
`
`understand?
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`A.
`
`Yeah.
`
`Q.
`
`When I use the term Crowley we'll be
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`referring to U.S. patent number 7593740 which is
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`marked Exhibit 1008 in both IPRs, do you understand?
`
`A.
`
`Yes.
`
`Q.
`
`When I use the term Altman I'll be referring
`
`to U.S. patent application publication 20070281716
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`
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`
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`which is marked Exhibit 1006 in both IPRs, you
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`Page 7
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`understand?
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`A.
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`Yes.
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`Q.
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`Just a few more here. When I refer to your
`
`first 084 declaration or the February 2019 084
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`declaration that's the declaration that was submitted
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`at Exhibit 1002 in the 084 IPR, okay?
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`A.
`
`Yeah,
`
`the initial 084 declaration, that's
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`fine.
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`Q.
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`A.
`
`fine.
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`Correct.
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`I don't have the exhibit numbers but that's
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`Q.
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`Sure. This will be,
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`that will be the first,
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`your initial 084 declaration?
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`A.
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`That's fine.
`
`If you would like me to call
`
`it those I can, but I'm not
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`looking at anything but
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`your video right now.
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`Q.
`
`Okay. When I refer to your first 327
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`declaration that's the initial declaration that you
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`submitted in February 2019 with the 327 IPR, okay?
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`A.
`
`Yes.
`
`Q.
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`And conversely your second 084 declaration,
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`that's Exhibit 1011 in the 084 IPR, okay? That's the
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`one you just submitted a month ago?
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`A.
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`That's right, it's also called the rebuttal
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`
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`
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`of the fly declaration or something.
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`Q.
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`That's right, we can refer to it as the
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`rebuttal declaration.
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`A.
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`Q.
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`That's fine. Either way I
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`think we're fine.
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`The same with 327 rebuttal declaration I'll
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`be referring to that as —- which is Exhibit 1020 in
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`the 327 IPR, okay?
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`A.
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`Q.
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`Okay, yeah.
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`I
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`think we may use the acronym POSITA, and
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`if I use that, I'll be referring to a person of
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`ordinary skill in the art at the time of the
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`invention, okay?
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`A.
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`That's fine.
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`Q.
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`Can you describe how you prepared for
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`today's deposition?
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`A.
`
`I read the materials in the IPR and I had a
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`few calls with attorneys from Snap.
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`Q.
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`Okay. As part of your preparation
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`approximately how much time did you spend preparing
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`for the deposition?
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`A.
`
`Q.
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`I don't know, eight to 10 hours.
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`Was there any documents that you consulted
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`that were,
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`in your preparation for the deposition
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`which are not already at record in the IPR?
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`A.
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`I don't know that —-
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`I
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`looked at the
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`documents for the IPR.
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`Q.
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`Okay. Your review mostly focused on the
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`Page 9
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`record?
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`A.
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`That's correct.
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`Q.
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`Are you aware of any errors that exist in
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`either the 084 rebuttal declaration or the 327
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`rebuttal declaration?
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`A.
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`Q.
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`Not off the top of my head, no, sorry.
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`For the next set of questions I plan to
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`refer to your rebuttal declaration from the 084 IPR,
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`okay?
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`A.
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`Q.
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`Okay.
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`Do you have an electronic version or a
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`physical copy available to access?
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`A.
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`I have the files that were sent from
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`BlackBerry for this deposition,
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`I can refer to them.
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`Q.
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`Sure. This would be Exhibit 1011 in the 084
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`IPR.
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`A.
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`Q.
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`A.
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`Q.
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`A.
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`Okay, would you like for me to open that?
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`Yes, go ahead.
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`Okay.
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`I'm doing the same.
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`I have a relatively small screen, so while
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`I'm looking at the document
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`I probably won't be able
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`to see you, so if I miss something please restate it.
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`
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`I'll be asking questions
`Okay, understood.
`Q.
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`referring to the 084 rebuttal declaration but just for
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`the record unless we indicate otherwise the questions
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`will apply for both the 084 and 327 proceedings.
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`I
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`believe these issues overlap between the two IPRs,
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`okay?
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`A.
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`Okay.
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`If I am either confused or —— I'll
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`clarify with you if I think that they do not.
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`Q.
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`Perfect,
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`thank you. Referring to paragraph
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`16 of the 084 rebuttal declaration, you state,
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`this
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`starts at the last line on that page, page 7 paragraph
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`16,
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`I agree with the board's institution's decisions
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`determination that the claims action spot refers to a
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`location or event
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`in which the activity is occurring
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`or has occurred, right?
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`A.
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`Q.
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`I see that line, yeah.
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`Okay.
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`In paragraph 14 just above that in
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`the 084 rebuttal declaration you acknowledge that any
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`related district court proceeding involving the 084
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`and 327 patents, The parties agree to a construction
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`for the term action spot as a location or event where
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`at least one activity is occurring relative to the
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`current location of another mobile device.
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`Do you see
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`that?
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`A.
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`Oh,
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`in paragraph 14?
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`Paragraph 14.
`Q.
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`A.
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`Q.
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`Yes,
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`I do see that.
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`Does the agreed—upon construction or the
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`term action spot as you quoted in paragraph 14
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`actually use the two—word phrase has occurred?
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`A.
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`The construction is there,
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`I can read it out
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`to you if you wish.
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`Q.
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`A.
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`Sure, yeah, can you read that out?
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`The agreed,
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`the construction for action spot
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`was a location or event where at least one activity is
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`occurring relative to the current location of another
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`mobile device.
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`Q.
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`Does that construction include the phrase
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`has occurred?
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`A.
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`No,
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`I mean I just read it out to you,
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`I
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`don't believe it does.
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`Q.
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`In your view would it be impossible to use
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`data from other mobile devices that have engaged in
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`documenting actions to reach a determination that some
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`type of activity is occurring at a location or event?
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`MR. PETERMAN: Object to the form.
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`A.
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`Yeah, could you repeat that question?
`
`I'm
`
`sorry.
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`Q.
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`Sure, would it be impossible for a system to
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`be designed that would use data from other mobile
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`devices that have engaged in documenting actions to
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`reach a determination that some type of activity is
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`occurring at a location or event?
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`Page 12
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`MR. PETERMAN: Objection.
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`THE WITNESS:
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`Go ahead, apologize.
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`MR. PETERMAN:
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`I just made the same
`
`objection to form.
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`A.
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`Yeah,
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`I think that's a very vague question
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`in the sense that I don't know when,
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`if,
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`if we relate
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`it back to the actual claim elements then I believe
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`that's impossible. But it just depends on how or what
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`the context is.
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`Q.
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`Sure. Let's construct a hypothetical.
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`If
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`you were leading a team of engineers and you were
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`trying to build a predictive model, for example, would
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`it be possible for those engineers in say the 2010
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`time frame to make a prediction about whether activity
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`is occurring based on indications of documenting the
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`actions that have occurred?
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`MR. PETERMAN: Object to form.
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`A.
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`It depends on the context but usually no.
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`I
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`don't think a predictive model to do 100 percent
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`correct -— I don't believe the predictive model would
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`be 100 percent correct.
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`Q.
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`Is it a criteria of predictive models in
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`your experience to be 100 percent correct?
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`A.
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`It is —- it depends upon what your baud is,
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`you know.
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`I could predict that lots of people are
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`doing Zoom right now but would I swear to it, no.
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`But, again, it all depends upon the definition of
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`activity occurring and so on.
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`I don't believe that
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`based upon past information one can assert that
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`something is occurring.
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`Q.
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`If I received a text message from you that
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`said, or that included a video clip of a baseball
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`game, could a system reasonably infer that a baseball
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`game is occurring based on analysis of that message?
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`A.
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`No,
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`I mean it could be a video from a past
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`baseball game, baseball game could be over,
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`I don't
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`think you could necessarily assert that.
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`Q.
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`Not necessarily,
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`I'm asking if it's a
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`possibility.
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`If there were metadata, for example,
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`that indicated the current date and time would it be
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`possible?
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`MR. PETERMAN: Object to form.
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`A.
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`Again, it entirely depends on what the
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`criteria is or is occurring and the activity.
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`It
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`could have been the last pitch of the game, so I don't
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`know that I can say that you cannot —— you can assert
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`that something is occurring.
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`
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`Okay. Let's go to paragraph 12 of your 084
`Q.
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`Page 14
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`rebuttal declaration. There you indicated that you
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`reviewed a pair of documents from, related to the
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`district court proceeding, one being a corrected final
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`ruling on claim construction which is the marked in
`
`order, marked Exhibit 2002 and the second document
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`being a final ruling on Defendant Snap's Motion for
`
`Summary Judgment of Invalidity under section 101 which
`
`is Exhibit 1012, do you see that?
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`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes,
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`I do.
`
`Do you understand that the summary judgment
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`order which is Exhibit 1012 in contrast to
`
`Exhibit 2002 was not a Markman order that decided
`
`claim construction issues?
`
`A.
`
`I do,
`
`I think so, yeah.
`
`I'd have to take a
`
`look at those just to make sure there wasn't any claim
`
`construction in that order, but
`
`in its place I believe
`
`that's correct.
`
`Q.
`
`Is it your opinion that the portion of the
`
`summary judgment order that you cited in paragraph 17
`
`of the 084 rebuttal declaration altered the district
`
`court's formal construction for actions brought from
`
`the Markman order?
`
`MR. PETERMAN: Object to form.
`
`A.
`
`I need to take a look at paragraph 17 for
`
`
`
`
`
`anything specific that you're asking me.
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`Q.
`
`Yeah, do you believe that the summary
`
`judgment order altered the construction of the action
`
`spot that was set forth in the Markman order?
`
`MR. PETERMAN: Object to form.
`
`A.
`
`I frankly don't recall the details
`
`sufficient enough to give you a reasonable answer to
`
`that.
`
`Q.
`
`I'm going to refer to paragraph 21 of your
`
`084 rebuttal declaration, and there you stated that,
`
`you interpreted the claim phrase, determine at least
`
`one action spot within a predetermined distance from
`
`the current location of the first mobile device to
`
`mean determine each action spot within a specific
`
`distance from the current location of the first mobile
`
`device,
`
`the specific distance being set prior to the
`
`determining spot, do you see that?
`
`A.
`
`Yes.
`
`Q.
`
`I want to turn, go to your first 084
`
`declaration, that's Exhibit 1002 in paragraph 35.
`
`Just let me know when you're able to see that.
`
`A.
`
`I see it.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`So in paragraph 35 you quoted the 084
`
`patent and provided several examples of specific
`
`distances such as five blocks, 10 blocks, 10 yards,
`
`
`
`
`
`Do you see that?
`100 feet and other distances.
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`A.
`
`Yeah.
`
`Q.
`
`Is it fair to say that you used the phrase
`
`"specific distance from" as relating to some radius
`
`that extends from the current location of the first
`
`mobile device?
`
`MR. PETERMAN: Object to form.
`
`A.
`
`I wouldn't necessarily say radius.
`
`I think
`
`the distances are, you know, 10 yards may be a radius
`
`but 10 blocks may not be. You may not have a lO—block
`
`radius if, you now, one side of it is in the ocean.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`A lO-block distance may not
`
`necessarily be a radius but it's some distance that
`
`extends from the current location of that first mobile
`
`device?
`
`A.
`
`That's correct, so I mean radius refers to a
`
`circular measure which I don't think it necessarily
`
`implies in what
`
`I quoted. Radius I believe is a
`
`circular measure and I don't believe a circular
`
`measure is necessarily implied in what I quoted.
`
`Q.
`
`Let's turn to the Lemmela reference which is
`
`Exhibit 1005.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`The first thing I'd like to discuss is how
`
`Lemmela's system attributes a location to messages
`
`
`
`
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`that are posted by mobile devices. This is described
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`Page 17
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`around paragraph 33.
`
`So if you need to refresh and
`
`take a look at paragraph 33 please do so.
`
`Then I'd
`
`like to ask, can you explain how Lemmela's system
`
`associates a location with a post?
`
`MR. PETERMAN: Counsel, which exhibit in
`
`paragraph 33 were you referring to?
`
`MR. STEPHENS:
`
`Lemmela Exhibit 1005.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`How does, based on paragraph 33 can you
`
`explain how Lemmela's system associates a location
`
`with a post from a mobile device?
`
`A.
`
`I think,
`
`I mean I can read out paragraph 33
`
`but Lemmela is pretty agnostic and very broad as to
`
`how a location can be determined. As it says in
`
`paragraph 33, Such location postings include an
`
`indication of a location for the posting.
`
`In some
`
`cases the user may manually enter the location using
`
`coordinates, map sectors, street names, et cetera.
`
`However, when the posting is created by a mobile
`
`terminal the location posting may automatically
`
`include the location of the mobile terminal at the
`
`time the posting was created or posted.
`
`Such location
`
`data can be obtained from GPS, Global Positioning
`
`System device, although other means of automatically
`
`
`
`
`
`determining location such as inertial centers,
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`Page 18
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`LORAN —-
`
`MR. PETERMAN:
`
`Can you slow down a little
`
`bit, Doctor.
`
`A.
`
`Such location data would be obtained from a
`
`GPS,
`
`(Global Positioning System) device, although
`
`other means of automatically determining location such
`
`as inertial centers, LORAN, L-O—R—A—N systems,
`
`proximity detectors, et cetera, are also possible.
`
`Let me just leave it at that, yeah.
`
`Q.
`
`Last line of paragraph 33 refers to location
`
`coordinates, are you familiar with how GPS formats
`
`location coordinates?
`
`A.
`
`It depends upon at what level you're asking
`
`whether the GPS protocol itself, no.
`
`Commonly the
`
`output of GPS is given in latitude/longitude —— and
`
`also altitude. But internally I don't believe that's
`
`necessarily how it is processed.
`
`Q.
`
`The output of a GPS module or chip is
`
`plotted in latitude/longitude coordinates?
`
`A.
`
`That is my understanding.
`
`Now,
`
`there could
`
`be software that's running between the GPS chip and
`
`the user interface call that is translating the raw
`
`output of the GPS, and making it into latitude,
`
`longitude, altitude, which off the top of my head I
`
`
`
`
`
`don't recall the GPS protocol sufficiently to give you
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`Page 19
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`much more detail.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`So regardless of how the location
`
`coordinates are determined or how they're formatted,
`
`Lemmela's system associates the location coordinates
`
`with posts made by user devices,
`
`is that right?
`
`A.
`
`Location postings include an indication of
`
`the location for the posting, correct.
`
`Q.
`
`In paragraph 35 of Lemmela they describe a
`
`clustering algorithm, and one example is the K—means
`
`clustering algorithm.
`
`Can you describe how the
`
`clustering algorithm works?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`In general or the K-means?
`
`K—means would be fine.
`
`Okay, so the easiest way to think about this
`
`is suppose we have some form of a metric space where
`
`metric space just means we have some notion of a
`
`distance.
`
`I'm not being particularly technical here.
`
`Then, and so what that means is if I have a set of
`
`items then we can define a notion of distance or
`
`similarity between those items over the space. And
`
`you can think of the mean as the, outside of the
`
`center of the space or the center of the item that
`
`would be in a way represent the mean or average item
`
`given all of the additions. And K-means will try to
`
`
`
`
`
`output K of the items that are the K most, not quite
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`Page 20
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`central but in terms of the distance measure, one way
`
`to look at it would be these are the items such that
`
`the maximum distance from any other item in the space
`
`is minimized if I were to use these K items.
`
`I think
`
`that's a reasonable high—level description.
`
`Q.
`
`That was good,
`
`thank you. What is the
`
`similarity measure or the distance measure that is
`
`used among Lemmela's algorithm?
`
`A.
`
`The, Lemmela I
`
`think is relatively broad in
`
`terms of the measure that is being used.
`
`If we take a
`
`look at paragraph 35 Lemmela says that we can use the
`
`suitably defined similarity measure taking into
`
`account both the similarity between the postings by
`
`salient words or some other measure and the geographic
`
`distance.
`
`Then it says and other embodiments, other
`
`methods may utilize ontologies, common-sense knowledge
`
`sources, calculating semantic distances between words
`
`and phrases, or given sufficient amounts of data
`
`unsupervised learning methods like self—organizing
`
`maps.
`
`So Lemmela is pretty broad.
`
`It's talking about
`
`semantic distance. There are very well known ways of
`
`trying to find salient words in documents or something
`
`like that. An early example which would have been
`
`known at that time would be something called PFIDF,
`
`
`
`
`
`something like that could be used. Ways of finding
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`Page 21
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`salient words was known in that time frame. One
`
`example might be something called PFIDF.
`
`Q.
`
`In Lemmela's system a cluster of postings is
`
`a set of postings that are related semantically and
`
`geographically, for example?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Some embodiment,
`
`that would be correct.
`
`Okay, let's, I'd like to look at paragraphs
`
`39 and 40 of Lemmela.
`
`Do you see that paragraph 39
`
`identifies the Nokia 770 Internet tablet as one type
`
`of mobile terminal that can be used in Lemmela's
`
`system?
`
`A.
`
`Yes.
`
`Q.
`
`And then paragraph 40 identifies a number of
`
`other devices besides the Nokia 770 tablet that could
`
`alternatively be used in the system, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Among other things, yeah.
`
`Okay.
`
`Such as a cellular phone, a laptop
`
`computer, PDA, GPS receiver or car navigation device?
`
`A.
`
`I don't think you read them, maybe you
`
`did -—
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`I may not have the right order —-
`
`—— in order, but I have found cellular
`
`phone, a laptop computer or combination thereof, car
`
`navigation device. Yeah,
`
`I see,
`
`I believe I see all
`
`
`
`
`
`the examples you pointed to.
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`Page 22
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`Q.
`
`The second to last sentence in paragraph 40
`
`describes how Lemmela's mobile device can communicate
`
`with a web server using either a wired connection or a
`
`wireless connection, do you see that?
`
`A.
`
`Yes,
`
`I see that it says, Mobile device 50
`
`may also communicate with a web server one or more
`
`ports not shown on the mobile device that may allow a
`
`wired connection to the Internet, such as universal
`
`serial bus, USB, connection and/or via the short—range
`
`wireless connection not shown, such as the Bluetooth
`
`link or a wireless connection to WLAN access point.
`
`And I think we should keep in mind that that was not
`
`the only way that Lemmela's mobile device could
`
`communicate with a web server because in the very
`
`previous line it talks about cellular communication as
`
`other types of network that could be used.
`
`Q.
`
`Sure.
`
`Paragraph 40 describes a number of
`
`different examples that could each be used to
`
`implement Lemmela's techniques, right?
`
`A.
`
`That's correct.
`
`Q. Were broadband Internet connections
`
`available in the late 2000s via a wired connection to
`
`a computing device?
`
`A.
`
`You're asking me in the late 20005 could one
`
`
`
`
`
`connect to the Internet using a broadband wired
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`Page 23
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`connection?
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`That's correct.
`
`Yeah.
`
`(Inaudible) how would you connect to a
`
`broadband wired connection?
`
`MR. PETERMAN: Could you repeat the
`
`question?
`
`I actually missed it. You were
`
`talking over.
`
`Q.
`
`Thank you. What were some examples of how a
`
`user could connect his computing device with a wired
`
`connection to obtain broadband Internet?
`
`A.
`
`Okay, so this is a question which is
`
`somewhat interesting because the term broadband itself
`
`is not particularly well defined. But if we go with
`
`the colloquial, let's say, definition then one might
`
`have a cable modem connection or a DSL which may or
`
`may not be broadband, or by the late 20005 I believe
`
`we also have fiber connections to the home.
`
`Now,
`
`if
`
`it was to a place of work then you could suddenly have
`
`fiber or Ethernet or other types of connection that
`
`would eventually be connected to a service provider
`
`that was connected to the greater Internet. And then
`
`within the premises you might run your own network
`
`such as Ethernet.
`
`I don't know that anything that
`
`
`
`
`
`that much was being used as a wired connection by
`was,
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`Page 24
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`then. And one could connect using Ethernet, and in
`
`some cases maybe Ethernet connected to USB or
`
`something.
`
`Then back to the access connection you had
`
`which would be cable modem, fiber, DSL and so on.
`
`Q.
`
`So it would have been possible for Lemmela's
`
`mobile device to use an Ethernet or fiberoptic
`
`connection to obtain broadband Internet?
`
`A.
`
`I actually have one of the Nokias except for
`
`one after the 770.
`
`So I don't believe you can connect
`
`an Ethernet to that. But some laptops had Ethernet
`
`jacks at that time period so they could use a wired
`
`connection.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Look at figure 6 in Lemmela.
`
`Okay.
`
`This is a block diagram of the mobile device
`
`at the right?
`
`A.
`
`That's correct.
`
`Q.
`
`Shown in figure 6 there's a memory 56 where
`
`map information 66 and posting information 68 and
`
`processing instruction 70 is stored, do you see that?
`
`A.
`
`I believe that's just the memory of the
`
`device. And yeah,
`
`that information would be stored
`
`there.
`
`Q.
`
`Do the types of memory that are described in
`
`
`
`
`
`paragraph 45 of Lemmela, are those the type of memory
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`Page 25
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`that could used as memory 56?
`
`A.
`
`Yeah, it's pretty comprehensive, so I think
`
`56 would include RAM, probably not EEPROM or ROM,
`
`maybe, maybe if the processing instructions were on
`
`EEPROM or ROM --
`
`MR. PETERMAN:
`
`He said EPROM, E—P-R-O-M,
`
`all caps. And ROM, R—O—M, all caps.
`
`THE WITNESS:
`
`I said EEPROM, E-E-P-R—O-M
`
`and ROM. And I also said RAM, R—A—M.
`
`Q.
`
`A CD—ROM and a DVD are two of the types of
`
`memories listed in paragraph 45, correct?
`
`A.
`
`That's correct. But the types of, at least
`
`some of the types of mobile devices that have been
`
`identified in the previous paragraph and in our prior
`
`conversation don't easily connect to CD—ROM or DVD,
`
`they don't have onboard CD—ROM or DVD.
`
`Q.
`
`Do you know what the typical memory capacity
`
`of a CD-ROM was in the late 20005?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`catch 1t
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`700 megabytes give or take.
`
`Can you say that again?
`
`I didn't quite
`
`700 megabytes give or take.
`
`For like an audio CD?
`
`I mean all CDs I believe it's around 700
`
`
`
`
`
`megabytes, six to 700 megabytes.
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`Page 26
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`Q.
`
`Do you know what the typical memory capacity
`
`of a DVD was?
`
`A.
`
`4.3 gigabytes. Again, off the top of my
`
`head,
`
`I believe it's around 4.3 gigabytes.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay. Let's look at paragraph 43 of Lemmela
`
`which states, Memory 56 may also include posting
`
`information 68 which may include raw location posting
`
`information received from a network or any type of
`
`processed information, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Yeah,
`
`that's one of the lines in paragraph
`
`43, correct.
`
`Q. Would it have been impossible for Lemmela's
`
`mobile device to predownload posting information 68
`
`before the information was needed to be displayed?
`
`A.
`
`To implement all of what Lemmela is talking
`
`about it would have been impossible.
`
`Q. What are some of the portions of Lemmela
`
`that lead you to believe it would be impossible?
`
`A. Well, Lemmela talks about dynamically
`
`updating the location posting based upon the user
`
`location and also time period, and there is nothing in
`
`Lemmela that can change the time period to be in the
`
`past.
`
`I think a Lemmela—contemplated system where
`
`postings are downloaded as they are posted or as the
`
`
`
`
`
`user queries for them based upon their location, and
`
`
`www.veritext.com
`
`Paradigm, A Veritext Company
`26
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`888-391-3 376
`
`10
`
`ll
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`l2
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`l3
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`14
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`15
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`Page 27
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`that could not be done using an offline storage
`
`system.
`
`Q.
`
`Let's turn to figure 5 in Lemmela.
`
`A. After we're done with the Lemmela line of
`
`questioning if we could take a break that would be
`
`helpful.
`
`Q.
`
`No problem,
`
`that would be fine.
`
`Figure 5
`
`shows a timeline 46?
`
`A.
`
`That's correct.
`
`Q. What does the timeline 46 allow the user to
`
`do?
`
`A.
`
`It allows the user to constrain the location
`
`posting view using that timeline.
`
`Q.
`
`Can you give an example of how a user might
`
`interact with the user interface in figure 5 to change
`
`the timing view?
`
`A.
`
`Given that Nokia was a touch screen,
`
`though
`
`it had a little stylus,
`
`I believe you could either
`
`click on particular days or, you know, that's just a
`
`sample interface, one could presumedly get finer than
`
`the days and weeks view shown there.
`
`You might have
`
`been able to drag over that hand and presumably in a
`
`path from now until whenever or even in the past.
`
`Q.
`
`In the view in figure 5 do you see that at
`
`
`
`
`
`the left-hand side of the timeline there's a label
`
`
`www.veritext.com
`
`Paradigm, A Veritext Company
`27
`
`888-391-3 376
`
`10
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`ll
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`Page 28
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`that says week five?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`side?
`
`Yes,
`
`I do see it.
`
`Goes all the way to 13 on the right—hand
`
`A.
`
`That's correct.
`
`Q.
`
`Is there a way that a user could access
`
`earlier postings from say weeks one through four?
`
`A.
`
`Presumably there are little arrows there on
`
`the two edges of the time line. My understanding is
`
`if one were to click on those arrows it would go back
`
`to the past.
`
`Q.
`
`If you clicked on left arrows you could go
`
`back in the past?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`That is my understanding.
`
`Then on,
`
`I guess conversely on the
`
`right—hand side you could maybe go forward to week 14
`
`or 15?
`
`A. Well,
`
`that's kind of interesting because I
`
`believe this view is contemporaneous.
`
`Lemmela was,
`
`Lemmela was filed on April 6, 2007, and if we take a
`
`look at that view it in fact includes the present
`
`which is I guess week 14, beginning of April 2007,
`
`I'm
`
`not sure it could go very much farther to the right
`
`including the present in there. But of course that's
`
`
`
`
`
`a, it's a mockup, but it's kind of interesting that it
`
`
`www.veritext.com
`
`Paradigm, A Veritext Company
`28
`
`888-391-3 376
`
`10
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`ll
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`Page 29
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`actually is including the date on which it was posted
`
`or filed.
`
`Q.
`
`Is the Nokia device that you personally have
`
`a Nokia 770,
`
`is that what you said?
`
`A.
`
`No,
`
`I have an 810.
`
`I can show it to you if
`
`you like.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`You have it on your desk right now?
`
`I'll get it for you. Here is the Nokia, and
`
`over here is the stylus. One of these things pop out.
`
`It's really cool, has a little keyboard that comes
`
`out. Well,
`
`I haven't used this for years, decades,
`
`but here is the little stylus. Oh, yeah, it has a
`
`little slide-out keyboard.
`
`The 770 was very sim
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