· · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`· · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`· · · · · · ·------------------------------
`
`· · · · · · · · · · ·DOCSCORP LLC,
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner,
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·v
`
`· · · · · · · ·LITERA TECHNOLOGIES, LLC,
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner,
`
`· · · · · · · ·__________________________
`
`· · · · · · · · · ·Case IPR2016-00541
`· · · · · · · · ·U.S. Patent 7,895,276
`
`· · · · · · · · · ·Case IPR2016-00542
`· · · · · · · · ·U.S. Patent 8,060,575 B2
`
`· · · · · · ·------------------------------
`
`· · · · CROSS-EXAMINATION OF CHRISTOPHER BUTLER
`
`DATE:· · · · Thursday, October 6, 2016
`
`TIME:· · · · 9:06 a.m.
`
`LOCATION:· · VINSON & ELKINS, LLP
`· · · · · · ·555 Mission Street, Suite 200
`· · · · · · ·San Francisco, California 94105
`
`REPORTED BY: LYNNE M. LEDANOIS, C.S.R. 6811
`
`JOB NO. 14609
`
`LITERA EXHIBIT 2027
`DOCSCORP v. LITERA
`IPR2016-00541 & IPR2016-00542
`
`Page 1 of 53
`
`Biogen Exhibit 2129
`Mylan v. Biogen
`IPR2018-01403
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`· · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`· · · · · · ·------------------------------
`
`· · · · · · · · · · ·DOCSCORP LLC,
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner,
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·v
`
`· · · · · · · ·LITERA TECHNOLOGIES, LLC,
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner,
`
`· · · · · · · ·__________________________
`
`· · · · · · · · · ·Case IPR2016-00541
`· · · · · · · · ·U.S. Patent 7,895,276
`
`· · · · · · · · · ·Case IPR2016-00542
`· · · · · · · · ·U.S. Patent 8,060,575 B2
`
`· · · · · · ·------------------------------
`
`· · · · CROSS-EXAMINATION OF CHRISTOPHER BUTLER
`
`DATE:· · · · Thursday, October 6, 2016
`
`TIME:· · · · 9:06 a.m.
`
`LOCATION:· · VINSON & ELKINS, LLP
`· · · · · · ·555 Mission Street, Suite 200
`· · · · · · ·San Francisco, California 94105
`
`REPORTED BY: LYNNE M. LEDANOIS, C.S.R. 6811
`
`JOB NO. 14609
`
`LITERA EXHIBIT 2027
`DOCSCORP v. LITERA
`IPR2016-00541 & IPR2016-00542
`
`Page 1 of 53
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`Biogen Exhibit 2129
`Mylan v. Biogen
`IPR2018-01403
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · A P P E A R A N C E S:
`
`·2
`
`·3· ·For the Patent Owner:
`
`·4· ·FINNEGAN, HENDERSON, FARABOW, GARRETT & DUNNER LLP
`· · ·BY: PIER D. DeROO, ESQ.
`·5· · · ·CHRISTOPHER B. McKINLEY, ESQ
`· · ·Stanford Research Park
`·6· ·Palo Alto, California 94304
`· · ·650.849.6666
`·7· ·pier.deroo@finnegan.com
`· · ·christopher.mckinley@finnegan.com
`·8
`
`·9· ·For the Petitioner:
`
`10· ·VINSON & ELKINS LLP
`· · ·BY: BROCK S. WEBER, ESQ.
`11· ·555 Mission Street, Suite 2000
`· · ·San Francisco, California 94105
`12· ·415.979.6922
`· · ·bweber@velaw.com
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
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`21
`
`22
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`23
`
`24
`
`25
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`Page 2 of 53
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`Biogen Exhibit 2129
`Mylan v. Biogen
`IPR2018-01403
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`·1· · · · · · I N D E X· O F· E X A M I N A T I O N
`
`·2· ·EXAMINATION BY:· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
`
`·3· · · · MR. DeROO· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 5, 40
`
`·4· · · · MR. WEBER· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·34
`
`·5· · · · · · · · · · ·INDEX OF EXHIBITS
`
`·6
`· · ·EXHIBIT· · · · · · · DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · ·PAGE
`·7
`· · · ·2021 Document headed, Information Requests,· · · 12
`·8· · · · · The Internet Archive's Policy for
`· · · · · · Responding to Information Requests;
`·9
`· · · ·2022 Document headed, Standard Affidavit;· · · · 12
`10
`· · · ·2023 Document headed, Frequently Asked· · · · · ·22
`11· · · · · Questions About the Affidavit;
`
`12· · ·2024 Document headed, Kraft Kennedy Lesser,· · · 31
`· · · · · · Making Technology Easy to Use;
`13
`· · · ·2025 Document headed, Kraft Kennedy Lesser,· · · 33
`14· · · · · Making Technology Easy to Use;
`
`15· · 2026· Document headed, Kraft Kennedy Lesser,· · · 34
`· · · · · · Making Technology Easy to Use;
`16
`
`17· · · · · · · · · PREVIOUSLY MARKED EXHIBITS
`
`18· · · · · · · · · · ·Exhibit 1009
`
`19· · · · · · · · · · ·Exhibit 1010
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
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`Page 3 of 53
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`Biogen Exhibit 2129
`Mylan v. Biogen
`IPR2018-01403
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`
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`·1· · · · · San Francisco, California, October 5, 2016
`
`·2· · · · · · · · · · · · · 9:06 a.m.
`
`·3· ·_______________________________________________
`
`·4· · · · · · · · · · ·CHRISTOPHER BUTLER,
`
`·5· · · · having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
`
`·6· · · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION
`
`·7· ·BY MR. DeROO:
`
`·8· · · · Q· ·Good morning.· Would you please state your name
`
`·9· ·for the record?
`
`10· · · · A· ·Christopher Butler.
`
`11· · · · Q· ·My name is Pier DeRoo.· I'm with the law firm
`
`12· ·Finnegan Henderson.· I'll be taking your cross
`
`13· ·examination today.· I represent Litera in two
`
`14· ·proceedings before the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office
`
`15· ·in which you submitted an affidavit.· So I would like to
`
`16· ·thank you for appearing today to discuss your affidavit.
`
`17· · · · · · Have you been deposed before?
`
`18· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`19· · · · Q· ·Then you understand that you are testifying
`
`20· ·under oath today and you're obligated to tell the truth?
`
`21· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`22· · · · Q· ·Because we have a court reporter transcribing
`
`23· ·the cross examination today, please give verbal answers
`
`24· ·to my questions.· Is that okay?
`
`25· · · · A· ·Understood.
`
`Page 4 of 53
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`Biogen Exhibit 2129
`Mylan v. Biogen
`IPR2018-01403
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`
`
`·1· · · · Q· ·I would ask that you please wait for me to
`
`·2· ·finish my questions before you answer so that the
`
`·3· ·transcript is clear.· Is that okay?
`
`·4· · · · A· ·Understood.
`
`·5· · · · Q· ·If you need a break at any time, just let me
`
`·6· ·know.· I don't think it will be a long cross
`
`·7· ·examination.· I just ask if there is a question pending
`
`·8· ·that you answer the question before we go on break.· Is
`
`·9· ·that okay?
`
`10· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`11· · · · Q· ·Do you understand that your testimony today
`
`12· ·will be transcribed and made public in this proceeding
`
`13· ·before the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office?
`
`14· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`15· · · · Q· ·Is there any reason you can think of today why
`
`16· ·you cannot give full and truthful testimony?
`
`17· · · · A· ·No.
`
`18· · · · Q· ·What did you do, if anything, to prepare for
`
`19· ·cross examination this morning?
`
`20· · · · A· ·I looked over the affidavit that I had record
`
`21· ·of having submitted to Mr. Weber at his request.· And I
`
`22· ·sort of thought, recollected, pondered over prior
`
`23· ·depositions and testimonies I've given on the subject.
`
`24· · · · Q· ·Did you review any other documents?
`
`25· · · · A· ·No.
`
`Page 5 of 53
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`Biogen Exhibit 2129
`Mylan v. Biogen
`IPR2018-01403
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`
`
`·1· · · · Q· ·Did you meet with counsel to prepare for your
`
`·2· ·deposition?
`
`·3· · · · A· ·No.
`
`·4· · · · Q· ·Mr. Butler, you're currently employed at the
`
`·5· ·Internet Archive; correct?
`
`·6· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`·7· · · · Q· ·Is that your only current employment?
`
`·8· · · · A· ·It is.
`
`·9· · · · Q· ·What is your title?
`
`10· · · · A· ·Office manager.
`
`11· · · · Q· ·What year did you begin working at the Internet
`
`12· ·Archive?
`
`13· · · · A· ·2009.
`
`14· · · · Q· ·Did you have any involvement with the Internet
`
`15· ·Archive before 2009?
`
`16· · · · A· ·No.
`
`17· · · · Q· ·Have you held any positions other than office
`
`18· ·manager at the Internet Archive?
`
`19· · · · A· ·No.
`
`20· · · · Q· ·What are your responsibilities as office
`
`21· ·manager at the Internet Archive?
`
`22· · · · A· ·I have sort of a two-fold responsibility, one
`
`23· ·is more administrative in nature, this -- typical type
`
`24· ·of office functions, helping oversee an office staff,
`
`25· ·and the other is a little more legally oriented.· So I
`
`Page 6 of 53
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`Biogen Exhibit 2129
`Mylan v. Biogen
`IPR2018-01403
`
`
`
`·1· ·help field requests to authenticate records from our web
`
`·2· ·archive.· I also process, take down requests that we
`
`·3· ·receive for our website, and I field incoming requests
`
`·4· ·from law enforcement as well.
`
`·5· · · · Q· ·Do you do any computer programming as the
`
`·6· ·office manager at the Internet Archive?
`
`·7· · · · A· ·No.
`
`·8· · · · Q· ·Have you programmed any internet crawlers?
`
`·9· · · · A· ·No.
`
`10· · · · Q· ·Have you perform any other technical work on
`
`11· ·web crawlers at the Internet Archive?
`
`12· · · · A· ·No.
`
`13· · · · Q· ·Have you written any of the code related to the
`
`14· ·Internet Archive Wayback Machine?
`
`15· · · · A· ·No.
`
`16· · · · Q· ·Would you please describe your educational
`
`17· ·background starting after you completed high school?
`
`18· · · · A· ·I have a B.A. in film studies and a B.S. in
`
`19· ·environmental science from the University of California
`
`20· ·at Berkeley.
`
`21· · · · Q· ·When did you graduate from California Berkeley?
`
`22· · · · A· ·2002.
`
`23· · · · Q· ·Any graduate degrees?
`
`24· · · · A· ·No.
`
`25· · · · Q· ·Following your graduation from the University
`
`Page 7 of 53
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`Biogen Exhibit 2129
`Mylan v. Biogen
`IPR2018-01403
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`
`
`·1· ·of California at Berkeley, did you have any other jobs
`
`·2· ·before you joined the Internet Archive?
`
`·3· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`·4· · · · Q· ·And what were those?
`
`·5· · · · A· ·I worked as a counselor for a group home. I
`
`·6· ·also worked as an office manager for a separate
`
`·7· ·nonprofit.
`
`·8· · · · Q· ·Okay.· Are those the only two?
`
`·9· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`10· · · · Q· ·When you worked at the group home, what were
`
`11· ·your responsibilities?
`
`12· · · · A· ·My responsibilities were to supervise and help
`
`13· ·maintain the daily schedule of severely emotionally
`
`14· ·disturbed children -- that's the official term that they
`
`15· ·use -- who had been placed in the home.
`
`16· · · · Q· ·Okay.· At the nonprofit, what were your
`
`17· ·responsibilities?
`
`18· · · · A· ·It was more typical office manager position
`
`19· ·with things such as ordering supplies, maintaining
`
`20· ·files, helping develop administrator procedures and
`
`21· ·policies.
`
`22· · · · Q· ·For those prior positions at the group home and
`
`23· ·the nonprofit, did either of those jobs involve
`
`24· ·archiving web pages?
`
`25· · · · A· ·No.
`
`Page 8 of 53
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`Biogen Exhibit 2129
`Mylan v. Biogen
`IPR2018-01403
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`
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`·1· · · · Q· ·This was already marked.· I'm going to hand you
`
`·2· ·a document that we've previously marked as Exhibit 1009.
`
`·3· ·Is this the affidavit that you were provided in response
`
`·4· ·to a request from Mr. Weber?
`
`·5· · · · A· ·It appears to be so.
`
`·6· · · · Q· ·Okay.· Is that your signature at the bottom of
`
`·7· ·Exhibit 1009?
`
`·8· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`·9· · · · Q· ·Did you believe your declaration is true and
`
`10· ·accurate when you signed it?
`
`11· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`12· · · · Q· ·Do you still believe it is true and accurate
`
`13· ·today?
`
`14· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`15· · · · Q· ·In Paragraph 1 you state that you make the
`
`16· ·declaration based on your own personal knowledge;
`
`17· ·correct?
`
`18· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`19· · · · Q· ·And in your affidavit you did not represent
`
`20· ·that you were testifying on behalf of the entire
`
`21· ·Internet Archive organization, did you?
`
`22· · · · · · MR. WEBER:· Objection to form.
`
`23· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I don't believe that specific
`
`24· ·statement is in this affidavit; however, it is intended
`
`25· ·to be an official document of the Internet Archive.
`
`Page 9 of 53
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`Biogen Exhibit 2129
`Mylan v. Biogen
`IPR2018-01403
`
`
`
`·1· ·BY MR. DeROO:
`
`·2· · · · Q· ·It's based on your own personal knowledge;
`
`·3· ·correct?
`
`·4· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`·5· · · · Q· ·Please turn your attention to Paragraph 6.· It
`
`·6· ·states that you attached electronic copies of printouts
`
`·7· ·as Exhibit A; correct?
`
`·8· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`·9· · · · Q· ·I'll hand you a document previously marked as
`
`10· ·Exhibit 1010.· Please review this carefully and let me
`
`11· ·know whether or not this is the same as the Exhibit A
`
`12· ·that you attached to your declaration or your affidavit
`
`13· ·in Exhibit 1009.
`
`14· · · · A· ·This appears to be the Exhibit A that was
`
`15· ·attached to the affidavit in front of me.
`
`16· · · · Q· ·And you're certain even though it does not have
`
`17· ·an Attachment A page on it?
`
`18· · · · A· ·I don't see anything that indicates that these
`
`19· ·pages are different than those which I provided with the
`
`20· ·affidavit.
`
`21· · · · Q· ·Okay.· Thank you.· Did you provide all of the
`
`22· ·printouts in Exhibit 1010 to counsel as a single
`
`23· ·attachment or did you provide them separately?
`
`24· · · · A· ·They were all provided as a single attachment
`
`25· ·to my recollection.
`
`Page 10 of 53
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`Biogen Exhibit 2129
`Mylan v. Biogen
`IPR2018-01403
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`·1· · · · Q· ·I'm going to hand you a document that we will
`
`·2· ·mark as Exhibit 2021.
`
`·3· · · · · · ·(Exhibit 2021 was marked.)
`
`·4· ·BY MR. DeROO:
`
`·5· · · · Q· ·Would you please identify Exhibit 2021?
`
`·6· · · · A· ·This appears to be the printout of the page on
`
`·7· ·our website, archive.org, that outlines the procedure
`
`·8· ·for requesting authenticated printouts from our web
`
`·9· ·archive, the Wayback Machine.
`
`10· · · · Q· ·Does Exhibit 2021 accurately describe the
`
`11· ·Internet Archive's policy for responding to affidavit
`
`12· ·requests?
`
`13· · · · A· ·Yes, it does.
`
`14· · · · Q· ·Please turn to Page 2 of Exhibit 2021.· Do you
`
`15· ·see in the second full paragraph that states, "The
`
`16· ·Internet Archive will provide printed pages and the
`
`17· ·standard affidavit of authenticity"?
`
`18· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`19· · · · Q· ·I'll hand you a document that we've marked as
`
`20· ·Exhibit 2022.
`
`21· · · · · · ·(Exhibit 2022 was marked.)
`
`22· ·BY MR. DeROO:
`
`23· · · · Q· ·Would you please identify this document as the
`
`24· ·standard affidavit referenced in Exhibit 2021?
`
`25· · · · A· ·Yes, this appears to be that standard
`
`Page 11 of 53
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`Biogen Exhibit 2129
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`IPR2018-01403
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`
`
`·1· ·affidavit.
`
`·2· · · · Q· ·Is Exhibit 2022 the standard affidavit that you
`
`·3· ·sign and complete when you receive affidavit requests?
`
`·4· · · · A· ·It is the template that we use.· There may be
`
`·5· ·additions from time to time, but this is the basic
`
`·6· ·foundation that we use for all of our requests.
`
`·7· · · · Q· ·What differences are there, if any, between the
`
`·8· ·standard affidavit in Exhibit 2022 and the one you
`
`·9· ·submitted in this proceeding, Exhibit 1009?
`
`10· · · · A· ·Unless I'm mistaken, the only change is an
`
`11· ·addition to Paragraph 6 that references the fact that
`
`12· ·PDF files were supplied with the exhibit in addition to
`
`13· ·HTML files.
`
`14· · · · Q· ·I agree.· So the affidavit you submitted in
`
`15· ·Exhibit 1009 is exactly the same as the standard
`
`16· ·affidavit except for the added mention of the PDF files
`
`17· ·in Paragraph 6; correct?
`
`18· · · · A· ·Yes, I believe so.
`
`19· · · · Q· ·Does the standard affidavit in Exhibit 2022
`
`20· ·contain your name?
`
`21· · · · A· ·No.
`
`22· · · · Q· ·Did you draft the original standard affidavit
`
`23· ·for the Internet Archive?
`
`24· · · · A· ·No.
`
`25· · · · Q· ·Do you know who did draft the original standard
`
`Page 12 of 53
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`Mylan v. Biogen
`IPR2018-01403
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`
`
`·1· ·affidavit?
`
`·2· · · · A· ·I don't.· I only know that it was done in
`
`·3· ·concert with our attorneys.
`
`·4· · · · Q· ·Please turn back to Exhibit 2021, please.· Turn
`
`·5· ·to Page 1 and let me know when you're there.
`
`·6· · · · A· ·I'm sorry, 2021?
`
`·7· · · · Q· ·Correct.
`
`·8· · · · A· ·Okay.
`
`·9· · · · Q· ·In the middle of Page 1, do you see the
`
`10· ·paragraph that starts, "To initiate your request"?
`
`11· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`12· · · · Q· ·It states, "To initiate your request, you must
`
`13· ·send us payment as described below and an electronic
`
`14· ·list of the extended URLs for each page you would like
`
`15· ·us to print out."· Correct?
`
`16· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`17· · · · Q· ·Does this mean that in order to obtain an
`
`18· ·affidavit from the Internet Archive, a requesting person
`
`19· ·must provide a list of specific URLs?
`
`20· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`21· · · · Q· ·Why does the Internet Archive require a
`
`22· ·requesting person to provide a list of URLs?
`
`23· · · · A· ·We prefer to not have to do research to find
`
`24· ·specific records to print out and supply.
`
`25· · · · Q· ·If a person did not provide a list of URLs,
`
`Page 13 of 53
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`Biogen Exhibit 2129
`Mylan v. Biogen
`IPR2018-01403
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`
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`·1· ·what research would the Internet Archive have to perform
`
`·2· ·to locate the specific records?
`
`·3· · · · A· ·We would have to communicate with the requestor
`
`·4· ·to understand the specific URLs that they hoped to be
`
`·5· ·attached.
`
`·6· · · · Q· ·Please turn back to Exhibit 1009, which is your
`
`·7· ·affidavit in this case.· Can you please describe how you
`
`·8· ·prepared this particular affidavit in response to the
`
`·9· ·request you received from counsel?
`
`10· · · · A· ·Yes.· I have a template Word file that I review
`
`11· ·and if necessary make additions to, such as the PDF
`
`12· ·reference.· I then print out this document, I print out
`
`13· ·the exhibit, I review the exhibit, and I review this
`
`14· ·document, and then I sign this document and supply that
`
`15· ·to the requesting party.· If a notary has been
`
`16· ·requested, then it's executed with a notary.
`
`17· · · · Q· ·Did you receive a list of URLs from counsel in
`
`18· ·this case?
`
`19· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`20· · · · Q· ·And did you visit those URLs on the Wayback
`
`21· ·Machine?
`
`22· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`23· · · · Q· ·And those are the web pages that you printed
`
`24· ·out in Exhibit 1010; correct?
`
`25· · · · A· ·That's right.
`
`Page 14 of 53
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`Biogen Exhibit 2129
`Mylan v. Biogen
`IPR2018-01403
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`·1· · · · Q· ·When you visited the URLs, do you mean that you
`
`·2· ·accessed the URLs through the same public interface that
`
`·3· ·is available to anyone on the Wayback Machine?
`
`·4· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`·5· · · · Q· ·In the course of preparing your affidavit in
`
`·6· ·Exhibit 1009, did you access any Internet Archive
`
`·7· ·records that are not accessible to the public via the
`
`·8· ·Wayback Machine website?
`
`·9· · · · A· ·No.
`
`10· · · · Q· ·Does the Internet Archive charge any money to
`
`11· ·obtain an affidavit?
`
`12· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`13· · · · Q· ·Why does the Internet Archive charge money for
`
`14· ·an affidavit?
`
`15· · · · A· ·My understanding is that we charge to cover our
`
`16· ·labor costs and also to contribute a very small fraction
`
`17· ·to the cost of maintaining the Wayback Machine.
`
`18· · · · Q· ·Do you know how much was charged for the
`
`19· ·affidavit in this proceeding?
`
`20· · · · A· ·I believe it was our standard fee consisting of
`
`21· ·$250 for an affidavit and $20 for each HTML record
`
`22· ·printed out and $30 for a PDF record.
`
`23· · · · Q· ·Mr. Butler, the Internet Archive has received
`
`24· ·donations of web pages that were archived by other
`
`25· ·companies; correct?
`
`Page 15 of 53
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`·1· · · · A· ·That's right.
`
`·2· · · · Q· ·And those donated web pages are made available
`
`·3· ·through the Internet Archive's Wayback Machine website;
`
`·4· ·correct?
`
`·5· · · · A· ·Correct.
`
`·6· · · · Q· ·Can a user operating the Wayback Machine
`
`·7· ·through an internet browser distinguish between web
`
`·8· ·pages donated by third parties and web pages that were
`
`·9· ·not donated?
`
`10· · · · A· ·A user cannot do that using our standard
`
`11· ·interface.
`
`12· · · · Q· ·Does any part of your affidavit in Exhibit 1009
`
`13· ·distinguish between web pages that were donated by third
`
`14· ·parties and web pages that were not donated?
`
`15· · · · A· ·No.
`
`16· · · · Q· ·When a web page is archived by the Internet
`
`17· ·Archive, is any effort made to -- is any effort made to
`
`18· ·validate that web page with its owner?
`
`19· · · · · · MR. WEBER:· Objection to form.
`
`20· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· There is a quality assurance --
`
`21· ·there are quality assurance procedures that are
`
`22· ·performed for the crawling that we do and someone
`
`23· ·operating a crawl might, for instance, do spot checks of
`
`24· ·the archives that they've crawled and check them against
`
`25· ·what they observe when they visit the site on their own.
`
`Page 16 of 53
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`Biogen Exhibit 2129
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`·1· ·BY MR. DeROO:
`
`·2· · · · Q· ·Do you know if that quality assurance procedure
`
`·3· ·was performed with respect to the web pages in
`
`·4· ·Exhibit 1010?
`
`·5· · · · A· ·I don't know what specific quality assurance
`
`·6· ·might have been performed on the specific records in
`
`·7· ·this exhibit.
`
`·8· · · · Q· ·Has the Internet Archive ever requested that
`
`·9· ·the owner of an archived web page validate the accuracy
`
`10· ·of the content of the archived web page?
`
`11· · · · A· ·I don't know of any specific examples offhand;
`
`12· ·however, I do know that our archiving service, which is
`
`13· ·made use of buy over 400 libraries, state agencies,
`
`14· ·national libraries, and museums, is often used by those
`
`15· ·entities to crawl their own material.· They will help
`
`16· ·determine parts of their own material to be crawled and
`
`17· ·then check that material and find our service valuable
`
`18· ·and useful in performing that archiving of their own
`
`19· ·material.
`
`20· · · · Q· ·For donations of archived web pages from third
`
`21· ·parties -- scratch that.· Let me start again.
`
`22· · · · · · For donations of web pages that were web
`
`23· ·crawled by a third party, has the Internet Archive ever
`
`24· ·requested that that third party validate the content
`
`25· ·accuracy of the donated web page?
`
`Page 17 of 53
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`Biogen Exhibit 2129
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`IPR2018-01403
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`·1· · · · · · MR. WEBER:· Objection to form.
`
`·2· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I don't know what specific
`
`·3· ·requests might have been made to a third party to
`
`·4· ·validate their crawls.
`
`·5· ·BY MR. DeROO:
`
`·6· · · · Q· ·Is Alexa Internet one of the companies that has
`
`·7· ·donated web pages to the Internet Archive?
`
`·8· · · · A· ·Yes.· In fact, Alexa Internet was founded by
`
`·9· ·the founder of the Internet Archive, Brewster Kahle,
`
`10· ·alongside the Internet Archive at the same time that the
`
`11· ·Internet Archive was founded, and Alexa Internet was the
`
`12· ·major source for web archive records at the inception of
`
`13· ·the Wayback Machine.
`
`14· · · · Q· ·What was the date of the inception of the
`
`15· ·Wayback Machine?
`
`16· · · · A· ·It was launched in October 2001.
`
`17· · · · Q· ·When you joined the Internet Archive in 2009,
`
`18· ·was Alexa Internet still the major source of archived
`
`19· ·web pages on the Internet Archive's Wayback Machine?
`
`20· · · · A· ·My understanding is that up through 2009, Alexa
`
`21· ·was the -- was still the primary source for archived
`
`22· ·records.· Internet Archive was performing crawls itself
`
`23· ·at that time; and subsequently, Internet Archive became
`
`24· ·the major source, although we still accept -- we still
`
`25· ·accept donations in bulk regularly from Alexa.
`
`Page 18 of 53
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`·1· · · · Q· ·What percentage of the archived web pages on
`
`·2· ·the Wayback Machine had been donated by Alexa Internet
`
`·3· ·as of 2009?
`
`·4· · · · A· ·I don't know the percentage.· I only know that
`
`·5· ·it was the majority.
`
`·6· · · · Q· ·Do you know roughly what percentage the
`
`·7· ·archived Wayback -- I'm sorry, I'll start again.
`
`·8· · · · · · Do you know roughly what percentage of the
`
`·9· ·archived web pages on the Wayback Machine have been
`
`10· ·donated by Alexa Internet in 2004, 2005?
`
`11· · · · A· ·No.
`
`12· · · · Q· ·Alexa Internet is a separate company from the
`
`13· ·Internet Archive; correct?
`
`14· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`15· · · · Q· ·Have you ever worked for Alexa Internet?
`
`16· · · · A· ·No.
`
`17· · · · Q· ·Is Accelovation another company that has
`
`18· ·donated web pages to the Internet Archive?
`
`19· · · · A· ·Yes.· Accelovation, now called NetBase, has
`
`20· ·donated some archived records that have been
`
`21· ·incorporated into the Wayback Machine.
`
`22· · · · Q· ·And Accelovation is also a separate company
`
`23· ·from the Internet Archive; correct?
`
`24· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`25· · · · Q· ·Have you ever worked for Accelovation?
`
`Page 19 of 53
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`·1· · · · A· ·No.
`
`·2· · · · Q· ·What other separate companies from the Internet
`
`·3· ·Archive have donated web pages to the Internet Archive?
`
`·4· · · · A· ·The company named CUIL, spelled C-U-I-L, and a
`
`·5· ·company named Common Crawl.
`
`·6· · · · Q· ·Any others?
`
`·7· · · · A· ·None that I am aware of.
`
`·8· · · · Q· ·Have you ever worked for CUIL or Common Crawl?
`
`·9· · · · A· ·No.
`
`10· · · · Q· ·Has KKL Software donated any web pages to the
`
`11· ·Internet Archive?
`
`12· · · · A· ·I'm not aware of any donation from that entity.
`
`13· · · · Q· ·Have you ever worked for KKL Software?
`
`14· · · · A· ·No.
`
`15· · · · Q· ·Is it possible to check any Internet Archive
`
`16· ·records to determine whether a particular web page was
`
`17· ·donated by another company?
`
`18· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`19· · · · Q· ·Did you check those records of third-party
`
`20· ·donations for the web pages printed out in Exhibit 1010
`
`21· ·when you prepared your affidavit in this proceeding?
`
`22· · · · A· ·No.
`
`23· · · · Q· ·Sitting here today under oath, can you
`
`24· ·affirmatively represent to the Court that in 2004, 2005,
`
`25· ·it was, in fact, the Internet Archive's own web crawlers
`
`Page 20 of 53
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`Biogen Exhibit 2129
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`IPR2018-01403
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`·1· ·that captured and archived the web pages in
`
`·2· ·Exhibit 1010?
`
`·3· · · · A· ·No.
`
`·4· · · · Q· ·Please turn back to Exhibit 1010, please.
`
`·5· ·Please turn to the first page and refer to the URL in
`
`·6· ·the footer of the document.· Are you there?
`
`·7· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`·8· · · · Q· ·As you stated in your affidavit, the date in
`
`·9· ·the footer is apparently the date of the archiving;
`
`10· ·correct?
`
`11· · · · A· ·That's right.
`
`12· · · · Q· ·The date of archiving is not the same date that
`
`13· ·an archived web page is made available through the
`
`14· ·Wayback Machine website, is it?
`
`15· · · · A· ·That's correct.
`
`16· · · · Q· ·From your own personal knowledge, what is the
`
`17· ·first date that you're aware of for when the web pages,
`
`18· ·Exhibit 1010, were made available on the Wayback Machine
`
`19· ·website?
`
`20· · · · A· ·I don't know when this archive would have been
`
`21· ·first made available on the Wayback Machine.
`
`22· · · · Q· ·Okay.· Let me hand you a document that we'll
`
`23· ·mark as Exhibit 2023.
`
`24· · · · · · ·(Exhibit 2023 was marked.)
`
`25
`
`Page 21 of 53
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`Biogen Exhibit 2129
`Mylan v. Biogen
`IPR2018-01403
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`·1· ·BY MR. DeROO:
`
`·2· · · · Q· ·Could you please identify Exhibit 2023, please?
`
`·3· · · · A· ·This appears to be a printout of the frequently
`
`·4· ·asked questions page from our site, archive.org.
`
`·5· · · · Q· ·Does Exhibit 2023 accurately describe the
`
`·6· ·Internet Archive's policy as regarding its standard
`
`·7· ·affidavit?
`
`·8· · · · A· ·I believe the vast majority of this document is
`
`·9· ·current; however, if there are any specifics you would
`
`10· ·like to ask me about, I would be more than happy to
`
`11· ·confirm.
`
`12· · · · Q· ·Certainly.· Thank you.· Please turn to Page 3
`
`13· ·of Exhibit 23.
`
`14· · · · A· ·Okay.
`
`15· · · · Q· ·And there is a section entitled "About the
`
`16· ·Wayback Machine."
`
`17· · · · A· ·Okay.
`
`18· · · · Q· ·Do the questions and answers on Pages 3 and 4
`
`19· ·of Exhibit 2023 provide accurate information about the
`
`20· ·functioning of the Wayback Machine?
`
`21· · · · A· ·I'm sorry, would you repeat the question again?
`
`22· · · · Q· ·Sure.· Do the questions and answers about the
`
`23· ·Wayback Machine provided on Pages 3 and 4 of
`
`24· ·Exhibit 2023 provide accurate information about
`
`25· ·functioning of the Wayback Machine?
`
`Page 22 of 53
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`Biogen Exhibit 2129
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`·1· · · · A· ·I believe the vast majority of the information
`
`·2· ·in these answers is current, but if there are specific
`
`·3· ·things you would like to ask me about, I would be more
`
`·4· ·than happy to address them.
`
`·5· · · · · · I will say that some of the references to
`
`·6· ·potential errors that one might receive when trying to
`
`·7· ·visit a Wayback Machine archive might be somewhat
`
`·8· ·outdated and reflect messages that would have been
`
`·9· ·received in a prior version of the Wayback Machine.
`
`10· · · · Q· ·I do have one specific question.· Towards the
`
`11· ·bottom of Page 4, do you see the question:· "Can the
`
`12· ·Internet Archive search for pages on the Wayback Machine
`
`13· ·using particular keywords or other search terms?"
`
`14· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`15· · · · Q· ·And in the answer it states:· "No.· The Wayback
`
`16· ·Machine is not a typical search engine in that it cannot
`
`17· ·search for specific terms for keywords."· Correct?
`
`18· · · · A· ·That's right.
`
`19· · · · Q· ·When you joined the Internet Archive in 2009,
`
`20· ·was that statement about the Wayback Machine not being
`
`21· ·able to search for specific terms or keywords true?
`
`22· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`23· · · · Q· ·And it was also true before 2009?
`
`24· · · · A· ·That's correct.· However, I will add one caveat
`
`25· ·to that, there are specific instances of Wayback Machine
`
`Page 23 of 53
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`Biogen Exhibit 2129
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`IPR2018-01403
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`
`
`·1· ·archives that are self-contained collections created by
`
`·2· ·partner organizations, the libraries, and state agencies
`
`·3· ·that I referenced earlier.· And around 2009, and perhaps
`
`·4· ·earlier, some keyword search functionality was available
`
`·5· ·for those specific collections as I understand it.
`
`·6· · · · Q· ·The web pages in Exhibit 1010 are not part of
`
`·7· ·those specific collections, are they?
`
`·8· · · · · · MR. WEBER:· Objection to form.
`
`·9· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I'm not entirely certain.· In
`
`10· ·general, any given archive that exists in the global
`
`11· ·Wayback Machine is highly unlikely to be in one of those
`
`12· ·much, much smaller collections.
`
`13· ·BY MR. DeROO:
`
`14· · · · Q· ·Please turn to the first page of Exhibit 2023.
`
`15· ·Let me know if you see the question at the bottom:
`
`16· ·"Does the Internet Archive's affidavit mean that the
`
`17· ·printout was actually the page posted on the Web at the
`
`18· ·recorded time?"
`
`19· · · · A· ·Yes, I see that.
`
`20· · · · Q· ·And the answer to that question is that, "The
`
`21· ·Internet Archive's affidavit only affirms that the
`
`22· ·printed document is a true and correct copy of our
`
`23· ·records.· It remains your burden to convince the finder
`
`24· ·of fact what pages were up when."· Correct?
`
`25· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`Page 24 of 53
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`Biogen Exhibit 2129
`Mylan v. Biogen
`IPR2018-01403
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`
`
`·1· · · · Q· ·Please turn to Exhibit 1010.· I think that's
`
`·2· ·your Exhibit A.· Can you please confirm that the footers
`
`·3· ·of the printout on Pages 1 to 11 all list dates in
`
`·4· ·either 2004 or 2005?
`
`·5· · · · A· ·I see some that list the year of 2006.
`
`·6· · · · Q· ·I just want to check Pages 1 to 11.
`
`·7· · · · A· ·Oh, 1 to 11?
`
`·8· · · · Q· ·Yes.
`
`·9· · · · A· ·Yes, all of those -- the timestamps
`
`10· ·corresponding to the record from Pages 1 to 11 are all
`
`11· ·for dates within the period 2004, 2005.
`
`12· · · · · · MR. WEBER:· Sorry, I don't see it, 2005.
`
`13· · · · · · MR. DeROO:· I believe on page -- Page 11, it's
`
`14· ·not a footer, it's just a cover page.
`
`15· · · · · · MR. WEBER:· Oh, okay.· There it is.· Got it.
`
`16· ·BY MR. DeROO:
`
`17· · · · Q· ·And do you understand those dates to mean that
`
`18· ·the web pages in Exhibit 1010 were apparently archived
`
`19· ·in 2004, 2005?
`
`20· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`21· · · · Q· ·And that would mean that they were archived
`
`22· ·before you began working at the Internet Archive in
`
`23· ·2009; correct?
`
`24· · · · A· ·Yes.
`
`25· · · · Q· ·And in 2004, 2005, before you joined the
`
`Page 25 of 53
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`Biogen Exhibit 2129
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`IPR2018-01403
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`
`
`·1· ·Internet Archive, what did you know about how the
`
`·2· ·Internet Archive's web crawlers function to archive web
`
`·3· ·pages?
`
`·4· · · · · · MR. WEBER:· Objection to form.
`
`·5· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I was not aware of the web
`
`·6· ·archiving service.
`
`·7· ·BY MR. DeROO:
`
`·8· · · · Q· ·Since the time you joined the Internet Archive
`
`·9· ·in 2009, has someone informed you how the Internet
`
`10· ·Archive's web crawlers function to archive web pages in
`
`11· ·2004 and 2005?
`
`12· · · · · · Why don't I just start over?
`
`13· · · · · · Since the time you joined the Internet Archive
`
`14· ·in 2009, has someone informed you how the Internet
`
`15· ·Archive's web crawlers functioned to archive web pages
`
`16· ·in 2004 and 2005?
`
`17· · · · A· ·Since I've joined, I've been instructed by
`
`18· ·engineers and my predecessor as well as reviewed
`
`19· ·documents and papers that describe the basic process by
`
`20· ·which crawlers archive web pages.
`
`21· · · · Q· ·Is there any other source of knowledge for how
`
`22· ·you understand that the Internet Archive's web crawlers
`
`23· ·worked in 2004, 2005?
`
`24· · · · A· ·Not that I think of sitting here right now.
`
`25· · · · Q· ·And those instructions from the engineers and
`
`Page 26 of 53
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`Biogen Exhibit 2129
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`IPR2018-01403
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`
`·1· ·your predecessor and the documents and papers that you
`
`·2· ·mentioned, those are the basis of your testimony for how
`
`·3· ·web pages were web crawled before 2009?
`
`·4· · · · A· ·Those are some of the basis.· Additionally, my
`
`·5· ·confidence in the ability of the machines involved to
`
`·6· ·accurately record and reflect a time of archive and also
`
`·7· ·a file that was transferred responsive to an http
`
`·8· ·request sent by a crawler to a specific URL, my
`
`·9· ·confidence in those systems is also based upon the fact
`
`10· ·that, as I mentioned previously, over 400 university,
`
`11· ·state, and national libraries and museums as well as
`
`12· ·government agencies rely upon the Internet Archive to
`
`13· ·not only preserve their own documents but also crawl and
`
`14· ·create collections for content that they deem especially
`
`15· ·important to preserve for their patrons and for future
`
`16· ·generations.
`
`17· · · · · · I also base my confidence on the thousands of
`
`18· ·interactions that I have had with site owners who have
`
`19· ·contacted us about archives of their websites in the
`
`2
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