IPR2018-00933; IPR2018-00934; IPR2018-00935
`Fischer, Ph.D., Gregory - Vol. II
`February 20, 2019
`
`253
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` Case IPR2018-00933, IPR2018-00934,
` IPR2018-00935
`
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x
`INTUITIVE SURGICAL, INC.,
` Petitioner,
` v.
`ETHICON LLC,
` Patent Owner.
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x
`
` Volume II
`
` CONTINUED DEPOSITION of
` GREGORY FISCHER, Ph.D.
` February 20, 2019
` Boston, Massachusetts
`
`Reporter: Michael D. O'Connor, RMR, CRR, CRC
`Job No. 46129
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2008.001
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-00934
`
`
`Fischer, Ph.D., Gregory - Vol. II
`February 20, 2019
`
`253
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` Case IPR2018-00933, IPR2018-00934,
` IPR2018-00935
`
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x
`INTUITIVE SURGICAL, INC.,
` Petitioner,
` v.
`ETHICON LLC,
` Patent Owner.
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - x
`
` Volume II
`
` CONTINUED DEPOSITION of
` GREGORY FISCHER, Ph.D.
` February 20, 2019
` Boston, Massachusetts
`
`Reporter: Michael D. O'Connor, RMR, CRR, CRC
`Job No. 46129
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2008.001
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-00934
`
`
`
`IPR2018-00933; IPR2018-00934; IPR2018-00935
`Fischer, Ph.D., Gregory - Vol. II
`February 20, 2019
`
`254
`
` Wednesday, February 20, 2019
` 9:08 a.m.
`
` CONTINUED DEPOSITION of GREGORY
`FISCHER, Ph.D., held at Fish & Richardson,
`P.C., One Marina Park Drive, Boston,
`Massachusetts, pursuant to notice, before
`Michael D. O'Connor, Registered Merit
`Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter,
`Certified Realtime Captioner, and Notary
`Public in and for the Commonwealth of
`Massachusetts.
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`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2008.002
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-00934
`
`
`
`IPR2018-00933; IPR2018-00934; IPR2018-00935
`Fischer, Ph.D., Gregory - Vol. II
`February 20, 2019
`
`255
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`APPEARANCES:
`
`ATTORNEYS FOR PETITIONER:
` FISH & RICHARDSON, P.C.
` One Marina Park Drive
` Boston, Massachusetts 02210
` (617) 521-7803
` BY: STEVEN R. KATZ, ESQ.
` katz@fr.com
`
`ATTORNEYS FOR PATENT OWNER:
` WEIL, GOTSHAL & MANGES LLP
` 201 Redwood Shores Parkway
` Redwood Shores, California 94065
` (650) 802-3985
` BY: ROBERT S. MAGEE, ESQ.
` robert.magee@weil.com
`
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`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2008.003
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-00934
`
`
`
`IPR2018-00933; IPR2018-00934; IPR2018-00935
`Fischer, Ph.D., Gregory - Vol. II
`February 20, 2019
`
`256
`
`APPEARANCES (Cont'd):
`
`ATTORNEYS FOR PATENT OWNER:
` WEIL, GOTSHAL & MANGES LLP
` 2001 M Street, N.W., Suite 600
` Washington, D.C. 20036
` (202) 682-7000
` BY: CHRISTOPHER MARANDO, ESQ.
` christopher.marando@weil.com
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`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2008.004
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-00934
`
`
`
`IPR2018-00933; IPR2018-00934; IPR2018-00935
`Fischer, Ph.D., Gregory - Vol. II
`February 20, 2019
`
`257
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` I N D E X
`Deposition of: Page
`GREGORY FISCHER, Ph.D.
` By Mr. Magee 258
`
` E X H I B I T S
`No. Page
`Exhibit 12 Document entitled,
` "Comparison of Control
` Modes of Handheld
` Robot Laparoscopic
` Surgery" 331
`Exhibit 13 U.S. Patent 5,779,130 377
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`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2008.005
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-00934
`
`
`
`IPR2018-00933; IPR2018-00934; IPR2018-00935
`Fischer, Ph.D., Gregory - Vol. II
`February 20, 2019
`
`258
`
` P R O C E E D I N G S
`
` GREGORY FISCHER, Ph.D.
`
`having been previously satisfactorily
`identified by the production of his driver's
`license, and duly sworn by the Notary
`Public, was examined and testified as
`follows:
`
`EXAMINATION
`BY MR. MAGEE:
` Q. Good morning. Dr. Fischer.
` A. Good morning.
` Q. Welcome back.
` MR. MAGEE: Can we hand Dr.
` Fischer what was previously marked as
` Exhibit 1.
` Q. It's a very thin document labeled
`"Patent Owner's Revised Notice of Deposition of
`Gregory Fischer, Ph.D."
` A. Okay. Yes.
` Q. Have you seen this document
`before?
` A. I don't recall reviewing this
`
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`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2008.006
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-00934
`
`
`
`IPR2018-00933; IPR2018-00934; IPR2018-00935
`Fischer, Ph.D., Gregory - Vol. II
`February 20, 2019
`
`259
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`before.
` Q. Okay. If you just turn to the
`first page here, and read. It's only two
`paragraphs. Just let me know when you're done.
` A. Yes.
` Q. And you understand that you're
`here to testify today about your opinions in
`connection with your declaration, IPRs ending
`in 0933, 934 and 935, correct?
` A. I'm here to provide clarification
`on any opinions that I've made in my
`declaration, yes.
` Q. Okay. And what did you do to
`prepare for today's deposition?
` MR. KATZ: That can enter into the
` area of work product privileged
` communications under the Federal Rules.
` So you can state broadly what documents
` you read, who you spoke with, how much
` time you spent. That's pretty much
` what's permitted. Don't go into any
` more detail other than that.
` A. In terms of preparation for today
`specifically or the two depositions in general?
` Q. Why don't we start with today.
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2008.007
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-00934
`
`
`
`IPR2018-00933; IPR2018-00934; IPR2018-00935
`Fischer, Ph.D., Gregory - Vol. II
`February 20, 2019
`
`260
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` A. For today, I reviewed the material
`and I spoke with Steve Katz to discuss --
` MR. KATZ: Don't go into what you
` discussed. Just the amount of time you
` spent.
` Q. So when did you meet with Mr.
`Katz?
` A. I met with Mr. Katz yesterday
`morning.
` Q. Okay. And roughly how long did
`you spend with Mr. Katz?
` A. We met for approximately an hour
`and a half.
` Q. And what did you do to prepare for
`Monday's deposition?
` A. I believe I met with two attorneys
`from Fish & Richardson and a phone call with
`Steve Katz the week before.
` Q. Who were the two attorneys from
`Fish & Richardson you met with?
` A. Let me make sure I get you the
`right last names. Off the top of my head, I
`don't have their full names. I believe it was
`Brian O'Connor and John, and I don't recall
`John's last name off the top of my head.
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2008.008
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-00934
`
`
`
`IPR2018-00933; IPR2018-00934; IPR2018-00935
`Fischer, Ph.D., Gregory - Vol. II
`February 20, 2019
`
`261
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` Q. Okay. When did you meet with
`them?
` A. I believe that would have been
`last Thursday.
` Q. Roughly how long did you meet with
`them for?
` A. I believe it was for a couple
`hours. I really do not know the exact amount
`of time that I met with them.
` Q. Okay. And did you -- I apologize,
`did you review any documents in preparation for
`either today's or Monday's deposition?
` A. I focused on reviewing the
`documents, including my declaration, as well as
`the exhibits.
` Q. Did you review any documents that
`were not exhibits to any of the three IPRs
`we're discussing today?
` A. I do not believe I reviewed any
`documents, to the best of my knowledge, outside
`of my declaration and the exhibits.
` Q. And I believe on Monday you
`testified that you worked with robotically
`controlled surgical systems in your
`professional career; is that correct?
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2008.009
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-00934
`
`
`
`IPR2018-00933; IPR2018-00934; IPR2018-00935
`Fischer, Ph.D., Gregory - Vol. II
`February 20, 2019
`
`262
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` A. I don't recall the exact wording
`that I used, but I have worked with robotic
`surgical systems in my career, yes.
` Q. Understood. Roughly how many
`different types of robotic surgical systems
`have you worked with?
` A. That would be very difficult to
`answer, unless you clarify in what capacity.
` Q. Roughly how many different types
`of robotic surgical systems have you worked
`with in your professional career since 2002?
`Well, you know what, for clarity, why don't we
`just go through in order.
` From 2002 to 2008, when you were
`working for Johns Hopkins University, roughly
`how many robotic surgical systems did you work
`with?
` A. I worked with a lot of custom and
`not commercially available systems through
`various embodiments and iterations. It would
`be very difficult to put an exact number on
`that.
` MR. KATZ: I will just caution you
` this is on the public record, so if you
` have confidential information, don't
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2008.010
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-00934
`
`
`
`IPR2018-00933; IPR2018-00934; IPR2018-00935
`Fischer, Ph.D., Gregory - Vol. II
`February 20, 2019
`
`263
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` share it, and we'll try to figure out if
` it's relevant and what to do about it.
` Q. That's fine. I'm not asking you
`for any confidential information. I'm just
`trying to get a feel for the total number here.
` Did you work on any commercially
`available systems during your time at Johns
`Hopkins University?
` A. I did not develop any systems that
`later became commercially available, to the
`best of my knowledge. I certainly used systems
`that were commercially available.
` Q. What do you mean by "used systems
`that were commercially available"?
` A. There were components of robotic
`systems that I was working with that came from
`commercially available sources.
` Q. Do you remember what commercially
`available systems you used?
` A. Are you referring specifically to
`commercially available surgical robots?
` Q. Yes.
` A. There were at least two smaller
`needle-based systems that I don't recall the
`company name off the top of my head. I have
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2008.011
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-00934
`
`
`
`IPR2018-00933; IPR2018-00934; IPR2018-00935
`Fischer, Ph.D., Gregory - Vol. II
`February 20, 2019
`
`264
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`done work with the da Vinci surgical system for
`Intuitive Surgical. I have done work with or
`at least used the computer motion surgical
`robot.
` It's difficult for me to say if
`other systems that I worked with were
`commercially available or not at the time, but
`that's not necessarily an exhaustive list, but
`I believe it's representative.
` Q. Okay. But as you sit here today,
`the only commercially available robotic
`surgical systems that you worked on at Johns
`Hopkins are the two smaller needle-based
`systems, the da Vinci robot and the computer
`motion surgical robot; is that correct?
` A. To the best of my recollection,
`those were the commercially available
`surgically robotic systems that I worked with
`during that time.
` Q. Okay. Did you work with any other
`commercially available robotic surgical systems
`during your work at Surgisense Corporation?
` A. No, I did not, to the best of my
`knowledge.
` Q. Okay. Did you work with the
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2008.012
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-00934
`
`
`
`IPR2018-00933; IPR2018-00934; IPR2018-00935
`Fischer, Ph.D., Gregory - Vol. II
`February 20, 2019
`
`265
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`da Vinci robot while you were at Surgisense?
` A. As part of my role at Surgisense,
`I did not work with the da Vinci robot, to the
`best of my knowledge.
` Q. Did you work with any commercially
`available robotic surgical systems during your
`work at Surgisense?
` A. I don't recall working with any
`surgical robotic systems during my role at
`Surgisense.
` Q. Did you work with any robotic
`surgical systems during your work at Medical
`Motion Corporation?
` A. Yes, I have.
` Q. Did you work with the two smaller
`needle-based systems you referred to earlier?
` A. No, I did not.
` Q. Okay. Did you work with the
`da Vinci robot during your time at Medical
`Motion Corporation?
` A. Yes, I had.
` Q. Did you work with the computer
`motion surgical robot during your time at
`Medical Motion Corporation?
` A. No, I did not.
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2008.013
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-00934
`
`
`
`IPR2018-00933; IPR2018-00934; IPR2018-00935
`Fischer, Ph.D., Gregory - Vol. II
`February 20, 2019
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` Q. Are there any other robotic
`surgical systems that you worked with at
`Medical Motion Corporation?
` A. I have worked with other surgical
`robotic systems at Medical Motion Corporation,
`none of which were commercially considerable.
` Q. So without getting into
`confidential information, when working at
`Medical Motion Corporation on the robotic
`surgical systems that were not commercially
`available, were you involved in the design of
`those robotic surgical systems?
` A. I have been involved in aspects of
`design of surgical robotic systems as part of
`my role at Medical Motion Corporation.
` Q. I'm sorry, I think I misheard you.
`Did you say you were involved in all aspects or
`just aspects?
` A. In aspects.
` Q. Got it. Which aspects were you
`involved in the design of?
` A. I have been involved in mechanical
`design, electrical design, and software design.
` Q. And in your role in mechanical
`design, did you design any portion of the
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2008.014
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-00934
`
`
`
`IPR2018-00933; IPR2018-00934; IPR2018-00935
`Fischer, Ph.D., Gregory - Vol. II
`February 20, 2019
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`interface between the surgical robotic system
`and the surgical tool to be used with that
`system?
` A. In collaboration with others, yes.
` Q. Roughly how many others?
` A. Approximately two others.
` Q. To the extent you remember, what
`was the educational level of those other people
`you were working with?
` A. One of them was a Ph.D. with a
`number of years in industry experience. The
`other, I don't recall his educational level.
` Q. For the individual who you don't
`remember their educational level, do you
`remember roughly how many years of industry
`experience they had?
` A. That individual has many years of
`industry experience.
` Q. Like more than a dozen?
` A. I really could not comment on the
`record. I don't know.
` Q. Do you have any estimate for how
`many years?
` A. I honestly would have a very
`difficult time answering that question.
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2008.015
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-00934
`
`
`
`IPR2018-00933; IPR2018-00934; IPR2018-00935
`Fischer, Ph.D., Gregory - Vol. II
`February 20, 2019
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` Q. Okay. And in connection with your
`electrical design of surgical robotic systems,
`were you involved in the design of the
`electrical connections between the surgical
`robotic system and the tools to be used on that
`system?
` A. That particular system had no
`electrical connections to the instrument
`attached to it.
` Q. And you said "that particular
`system." Was there only one non-commercially
`available robotic surgical system that you
`worked on during your time at Medical Motion
`Corporation?
` A. There is one system in mind that
`we developed during that time. I really don't
`have a recollection of another system that we
`developed.
` Q. I believe you said during your
`time at Johns Hopkins, you also worked on
`non-commercially available robotic systems; is
`that correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Were you involved in the design of
`any elements of those non-commercially
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2008.016
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-00934
`
`
`
`IPR2018-00933; IPR2018-00934; IPR2018-00935
`Fischer, Ph.D., Gregory - Vol. II
`February 20, 2019
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`available robotic surgical systems while at
`Johns Hopkins?
` A. Yes, I was.
` Q. What aspects were you involved in
`the design of?
` A. There were a number of different
`systems, but in general, I have been involved
`in mechanical, electrical, and software
`aspects.
` Q. Do you remember how many different
`non-commercially available robotic surgical
`systems you worked on at Johns Hopkins?
` A. I worked on a number of
`non-commercially available surgical robotic
`systems at Johns Hopkins. I can think of two
`that I worked very closely with during my time
`there.
` Q. Can you remember roughly how many
`you worked on in total, not just very closely?
` A. I think that's awfully vague. I
`apologize, but I really can't answer that
`question, because in some cases it was simply
`using it or seeing it in the lab or providing
`advice or guidance to someone. And in other
`cases, it was years of work in developing
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2008.017
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-00934
`
`
`
`IPR2018-00933; IPR2018-00934; IPR2018-00935
`Fischer, Ph.D., Gregory - Vol. II
`February 20, 2019
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`270
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`something.
` Q. Understood. Can you remember how
`many non-commercially available robotic
`surgical systems you were involved in the
`design of some aspect of?
` A. During my time at Johns Hopkins, I
`can really think of two systems that I was
`significantly involved in the design of.
` Q. What does it mean to be
`significantly involved in the design of?
` A. I would define that as something
`that was related to my research efforts
`typically resulting in publications or
`presentations.
` Q. And in recalling your time at
`Johns Hopkins, what sort of work would you
`consider insignificant involvement in the
`design of a robotic surgical system?
` A. Being in a laboratory with a large
`number of graduate students and faculty members
`that is very collaborative. It's very common
`for many people in that environment to have
`some involvement in a very large number of
`projects.
` Q. Okay. So turning to the two
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2008.018
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-00934
`
`
`
`IPR2018-00933; IPR2018-00934; IPR2018-00935
`Fischer, Ph.D., Gregory - Vol. II
`February 20, 2019
`
`271
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`non-commercially available robotic surgical
`systems that you were significantly involved in
`the design of, were you involved in the
`mechanical, electrical and software design of
`those instruments?
` A. I was involved in all of those
`aspects of both of those instruments.
` Q. Okay. Can we just call them
`instrument 1 and instrument 2 for simplicity?
` MR. KATZ: Or thing 1 or thing 2.
` A. However you prefer.
` Q. Turning to instrument 1. Were you
`involved in designing the mechanical interface
`between the robotic surgical system and the
`tool to be used on that system?
` A. Yes, I believe I was involved in
`that design.
` Q. And were you involved in the
`design of the electrical connections between
`that robotic surgical system and the tools to
`be used on that system?
` A. That particular system I do not
`believe had any electronics in the instruments
`that were held by the surgical robot.
` Q. So turning to what we're calling
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2008.019
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-00934
`
`
`
`IPR2018-00933; IPR2018-00934; IPR2018-00935
`Fischer, Ph.D., Gregory - Vol. II
`February 20, 2019
`
`272
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`instrument 2, were you involved in the
`mechanical design of the interface between the
`robotic surgical system and the tools to be
`used on that system?
` A. Yes. I was involved in the
`mechanical interface between the robotic device
`and the instrument that it held.
` Q. And were you involved in the
`design of any electrical connections between
`the robotic device and the tools to be used on
`that device?
` A. That particular instrument did not
`have any electrical connections between the
`robotic manipulator and the instrument that it
`held.
` Q. Is it common for a robotic
`surgical system to have no electronic or
`electrical connections between the robotic
`system and the instrument that it holds?
` A. Yes. I would say that's very
`common.
` Q. And in those systems, how is the
`surgical instrument actuated?
` A. As we discussed in our previous
`deposition, much of my work has been related to
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2008.020
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-00934
`
`
`
`IPR2018-00933; IPR2018-00934; IPR2018-00935
`Fischer, Ph.D., Gregory - Vol. II
`February 20, 2019
`
`273
`
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`percutaneous interventions. So often this is
`related to manipulating a needle, often with no
`additional actuation components.
` Q. So when you're doing percutaneous
`operations, is it correct that there are no
`moving parts on the surgical instrument held by
`the robot?
` A. If for the surgical instrument
`we're referring to the needle it is holding, in
`some cases it is a solid needle and in some
`cases it's a multipart needle and in some cases
`it might be a biopsy gun.
` Q. And does a multipart needle have
`elements that can be articulated?
` A. Can you clarify articulated?
` Q. Do any parts of a multipart needle
`move?
` A. In some cases, yes.
` Q. Did any of the robotic surgical
`systems that you were involved in at Johns
`Hopkins or Medical Motion use a multipart
`needle that had moveable parts?
` A. The robot that we were calling
`robot 2 or instrument 2 at Johns Hopkins was
`able to be used with needles that had multiple
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2008.021
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-00934
`
`
`
`IPR2018-00933; IPR2018-00934; IPR2018-00935
`Fischer, Ph.D., Gregory - Vol. II
`February 20, 2019
`
`274
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`parts generally concentric elements.
` Q. And how did robot 2 mechanically
`manipulate the generally concentric elements?
` A. Robot 2 aligned the needle, which
`was manually actuated by typically a physician.
` Q. So in that implementation, the
`robots positioned the needle, and the physician
`manually actuated the moveable parts of the
`needle; is that correct?
` A. In that system, the robot
`positions and aligns a guide sleeve, and the
`physician or the user is the one that would
`insert the needle and if it were a biopsy gun,
`fire the biopsy gun. If it were, for example,
`brachytherapy seed delivery that we discussed
`in the last deposition, it would be up to the
`physician to place those seeds.
` Q. Just taking a step back for a
`second. Since this is the second day of our
`deposition, can we use the same terms and
`definitions that we used in the first day's
`deposition?
` A. I would say in general, that's the
`case. But it might be helpful to refresh if
`we're going to use new terms.
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2008.022
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-00934
`
`
`
`IPR2018-00933; IPR2018-00934; IPR2018-00935
`Fischer, Ph.D., Gregory - Vol. II
`February 20, 2019
`
`275
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` Q. Of course. And then, again, just
`to repeat, if there's any word or any term I
`use in any questions that you don't understand,
`please ask me for clarity.
` A. Will do.
` Q. So I believe we've identified,
`roughly speaking, seven robotic surgical
`systems that you've worked with that you can
`specifically recall today.
` Did each of these different
`systems employ different user interfaces for
`the clinician or surgeon?
` A. They used a variety of different
`interfaces for the clinician or surgeon or
`user, yes.
` Q. Okay. For the two smaller
`needle-based systems that were commercially
`available, what was the manual interface for
`the surgeon?
` A. That is a good question. Of those
`two systems, one of them was a commercially
`available manipulator, not a commercially
`available surgical robotic system. We were
`building a custom system around it.
` Another one was commercially
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2008.023
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-00934
`
`
`
`IPR2018-00933; IPR2018-00934; IPR2018-00935
`Fischer, Ph.D., Gregory - Vol. II
`February 20, 2019
`
`276
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`available, I believe, with a joystick, but I'm
`not 100 percent sure about that.
` Q. And what's a commercially
`available manipulator?
` A. This would be something that you
`could buy or obtain from a company rather than
`building from scratch.
` Q. And what's the manipulator part of
`the commercially available manipulator?
` A. In that particular example, it was
`a device that was able to align a guide sleeve.
` Q. So earlier you distinguished one
`of the two systems as being a commercially
`available manipulator from a commercially
`available surgical robot system.
` In your understanding, what's the
`difference between a commercially available
`manipulator and a commercially available
`surgical robot system?
` A. In that particular example I just
`defined, one of them was only the physical
`device that aligned the instrument, wherein the
`other contained a significant amount more
`mechanical components, electrical components
`and software components for the application.
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2008.024
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-00934
`
`
`
`IPR2018-00933; IPR2018-00934; IPR2018-00935
`Fischer, Ph.D., Gregory - Vol. II
`February 20, 2019
`
`277
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` Q. And what's involved in the
`manipulator aligning the instrument?
` A. If we're referring to that system
`that we were just discussing --
` Q. Yes.
` A. -- that one, I believe, has four
`degrees of freedom that can position and align
`a tube effectively which serves as a guide
`sleeve for a needle.
` Q. And is the positioning and
`alignment under the control of the surgeon or
`clinician?
` A. As I said, that was a manipulator
`only that was available, and anything put on
`top of that was custom development.
` Q. For just the commercially
`available part of the manipulator, was the
`alignment and positioning under the control of
`a surgeon?
` A. The commercially available part,
`to the best of my knowledge, it came with a
`programming interface that you could send motor
`positions to it.
` Q. Could the commercially available
`manipulator be used in surgery on a human
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2008.025
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-00934
`
`
`
`IPR2018-00933; IPR2018-00934; IPR2018-00935
`Fischer, Ph.D., Gregory - Vol. II
`February 20, 2019
`
`278
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`patient without modification?
` A. Can you clarify can be used in
`surgery?
` Q. I may have the wrong governmental
`agency, and tell me if I do. But is it FDA
`approved for use in surgery on a human patient?
` A. No, that system was not FDA
`approved for use on humans.
` Q. Is FDA the correct governmental
`agency for approving surgical instruments on
`humans?
` A. That is a government agency that
`would approve the use of devices for humans.
` Q. Okay. And just to close the loop
`on that, if it's not FDA approved, it would not
`be legally allowed to be used on a human
`patient; is that correct?
` A. To the best of my understanding,
`if it is not approved by the FDA, it would not
`be legal to use in the U.S. on live human
`patients.
` Q. Okay. For the da Vinci robot that
`you had experienced --
` A. Actually, I would like to correct
`that last answer. I apologize.
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2008.026
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-00934
`
`
`
`IPR2018-00933; IPR2018-00934; IPR2018-00935
`Fischer, Ph.D., Gregory - Vol. II
`February 20, 2019
`
`279
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` Q. That's okay.
` A. In some scenarios, an IRB,
`Institutional Review Board approval, at a
`hospital or other medical institution may also
`enable such approvals.
` Q. Okay.
` A. Just to keep the record accurate.
` Q. Going back to the da Vinci robot
`that you had experience with while at Johns
`Hopkins and Medical Motion, do you recall what
`the user interface of that is?
` A. I'm sorry, could you repeat that
`question?
` Q. The da Vinci robotic system used
`at Johns Hopkins, is that the same da Vinci
`robotic system that you used while you were at
`Medical Motion?
` A. So while at John Hopkins, I
`interacted with the da Vinci robots in a number
`of capacities, including using it simply as a
`user in a course, as well as trying to put
`instrumentation, including sensors, for
`example, onto the surgical robot.
` Q. Okay. And that, I'll call it,
`model of da Vinci robotic surgical system, is
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`Ethicon Exhibit 2008.027
`Intuitive v. Ethicon
`IPR2018-00934
`
`
`
`IPR2018-00933; IPR2018-00934; IPR2018-00935
`Fischer, Ph.D., Gregory - Vol. II
`February 20, 2019
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`that the same model that you worked with while
`you were at Medical Motion Corporation?
` A. There were, at least, two
`different models of the da Vinci surgical
`system that I worked with at Johns Hopkins
`University, including both a clinical and a
`research version of the system.
` Q. Did both models use the same user
`interface?
` A. No, they do not.
` Q. Again, for lack of better terms,
`let's talk about model 1. What was the user
`interface for a surgeon on model 1 of the
`da Vinci robotic surgical system?
` A. Model 1 will refer to the
`commercially available surgical system, which
`is well described in the prior art references.
`I believe they're incorporated by reference
`into the challenged patents.
` Q. Do you recall what the user
`interface to that surgical system looked like
`sitting here today?
` A. Yes, I do. The surgical interface
`of the system that I'm referring to in this
`discussion looks like the Figure 13 on Page 22
`
`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Lega
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