Page 58
`
`Page 60
`
`1 explanation of the law to him, which is in his
`2 report. So there's nothing else to go over
`3 between --
`
`MR. PARK: We don't want to hear you
`4
`5 testify about it. Why don't you let us ask the
`6 question and he can tell us the basis for his
`7 opinion and what he relied on.
`8
`MR. KRIEGER: That's what he's doing.
`9
`MR. PARK: Okay, well, then, let's
`10 let him answer the question.
`11
`MR. KRIEGER: He did. I don't know
`
`12 what we're arguing about here.
`13
`MR. PARK:
`I wanted to make sure,
`
`14 this is Jin for Samsung, that the basis of your
`15 objection wasn't the fact that there was some other
`16 communication that he could in his mind have relied
`
`17 upon that you are saying, well, just because we
`18 talked, meaning that you and he talked, he can't
`19 disclose that. He must disclose that if it's
`
`20 something that he relied on to form his opinion.
`21
`MR. KRIEGER: Right. Yeah, we agree
`22 there. You're entitled to anything that he relied
`23 on. That's correct.
`I am not disputing that.
`24
`MR. PARK: Your objection and your
`25 direction to him blanketed all communications it
`
`1 distinguish?
`2
`A These are definitions and synonyms
`3 for distinguish, yes.
`4
`Q And how did you select those
`5 definitions?
`
`A I looked in the dictionary and
`6
`7 thesaurus.com and, to me, that encapsulates the
`8 plain and ordinary meaning of distinguish as we use
`9 it in everyday English.
`10
`Q And there was no definition of
`11 distinguish like this in previous Declarations;
`12 correct?
`13
`A I don't recall.
`
`Q And just to make sure I understand
`14
`15 what you're saying in paragraph 35, are you saying
`16 that you could replace the word distinguish with
`17 categorize? That they're interchangeable?
`18
`MR. KRIEGER: Objection, fonn.
`19
`A I don't know that they're identically
`20 interchangeable in all cases. Synonyms, to me, are
`21 words that basically mean the same thing. I think
`22 between the dictionary and the thesaurus, it gives
`23 sort of the range of meaning of distinguish in
`24 ordinary English.
`25
`Q (BY MR. BLUESTONE) All right. Let's
`
`Page 59
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`Page 61
`
`I appeared to me. So I wanted to make sure that the
`2 witness understood that he must disclose what he
`
`3 relied upon, regardless of if it came from you.
`4
`MR. KRIEGER: Correct. Yeah, no,
`
`5 that's a good clarification and if I didn't make
`6 that clarification in my objection, I didn't mean
`7 to state that. So we're on the same page.
`8
`MR. BLUESTONE: Jin, do you want to
`9 wrap up where you're going with that?
`10
`MR. PARK: It was just with that
`11 instruction and this discussion with counsel, Mr.
`
`12 Baxter, does that change your response?
`13
`THE WITNESS: No.
`
`Q (BY MR. BLUESTONE) All right. So
`14
`15 can we go to paragraph 35 of Exhibit 2, please?
`16 I'll just read this portion into the record. You
`17 state "The plain and ordinary meaning of
`18 ‘distinguish’ (from the Merriam Webster Collegiate
`19 Dictionary, 1998) is, ‘to separate into kinds,
`20 classes, or categories."'
`21
`The next sentence states, "Synonyms
`22 (from thesaurus.com) include categorize, classify,
`23 and characterize."
`
`turn to paragraph 74. I'm going to read into the
`record the first sentence here. You state,
`
`"Intrinsic evidence shows that one of ordinary
`skill in the art would understand that ‘arranging
`impedance within the at least one path‘ means
`placing an impedance in a path between contacts."
`Is that an accurate reflection of
`
`your opinion of the meaning of arranging impedance
`within at least one path?
`A Yes, it is.
`
`\OOO\lO\'JI-l>LoJl\)P-‘
`
`10
`
`Q So where it says "arranging
`11
`12 impedance," you would change it to say placing an
`13 impedance?
`14
`A I just indicated that's what
`15 arranging means to me. Placing impedance, you've
`16 got one impedance, you put the impedance in the
`17 path.
`18
`Q Now, an impedance is a measurable
`19 characteristic; correct?
`20
`A Yes.
`
`Q So how does one go about placing a
`21
`22 measurable characteristic in a path?
`23
`A Well, because there are circuit
`
`24
`
`Is -- are those two statements, do
`
`25 they constitute your opinion of the meaning of
`
`24 elements that have impedance, and you can place
`25 them in the path.
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`Q So you place -- you arrange the
`1
`2 impedance by placing the circuit elements into the
`3 path?
`4
`A Which have impedance, yes.
`5
`Q Which have impedance. Okay. Is
`6 there any difference between arranging an impedance
`7 with a 25 kilo ohm resistor versus two 50 kilo ohm
`
`8 resistors in parallel?
`9
`MR. KRIEGER: Objection, form.
`10
`A I am not sure what you're getting at
`11 by difference.
`12
`Q (BY MR. BLUESTONE) For the purpose
`13 of assessing whether you have arranged impedance to
`14 distinguish. Does it make any difference whether
`15 you have used a 25 -- a single 25 kilo ohm
`16 resistor, for example, or two 50 kilo ohm resistors
`17 in parallel?
`18
`A It may make a difference in your
`19 circuit. I don't know. But I would think both of
`
`20 those would classify as arranging.
`21
`Q Okay. So the particular physical
`22 structure might not matter, it's the measured value
`23 that matters?
`
`A Right. It's the impedance in the
`24
`25 path is the way I would look at it.
`
`1 the definitions that we talked about, specifically,
`2 paragraphs 35, 74, 81, and 82, those definitions
`3 are nowhere in Exhibit 3; correct?
`4
`A Nowhere in this document you are
`5 saying? Is that the question?
`6
`Q Correct. Yes. In Exhibit 3.
`7
`A I don't believe they do, no.
`8
`Q I would direct you to paragraph 31
`9 and paragraph 32 in which you provide a definition
`10 for, I'll start with paragraph 31, "distinguishing
`11 information about the piece of Ethernet data
`12 terminal equipment" you state means "Information to
`13 distinguish the piece of Ethernet data terminal
`14 equipment from at least one other piece of Ethernet
`15 data terminal equipment."
`16
`That's what it says in the paragraph
`17 31; correct?
`18
`A Correct.
`
`Q Does your, referring back to Exhibit
`19
`20 2, does your proposed definition of distinguish in
`21 paragraph 35 of Exhibit 2 modify or alter your
`22 position as stated in paragraph 31? Of Exhibit 3?
`23
`MR. KRIEGER: Objection, form.
`24
`A I'm sorry, you are asking does the
`25 definitions in paragraph 35 of Exhibit 2 affect
`
`Page 63
`
`Page 65
`
`MR. BLUESTONE: Okay. Let's mark as
`1
`2 Exhibit 3 --
`
`(Exhibit 3 marked for identification
`3
`4 by the court reporter.)
`5
`Q (BY MR. BLUESTONE) Exhibit 3 is your
`6 August 11, 2014, Declaration in support of
`7 plaintiffs‘ claim construction on selected terms.
`8
`MR. KRIEGER: I thought we agreed
`9 this deposition was limited to the defmiteness
`10 Declaration.
`11
`MR. BLUESTONE: It is.
`
`MR. KRIEGER: Okay. And why are we
`12
`13 talking about this then?
`14
`MR. BLUESTONE: Because I am going
`15 through what his constructions are to see how they
`16 have changed with respect to the definiteness.
`17 There's Declarations -- there's statements on claim
`
`18 construction with respect to distinguishing
`19 information here.
`
`MR. KRIEGER: Okay. So limited to
`20
`21 that? Okay.
`22
`MR. BLUESTONE: Yeah, I don't expect
`23 to go much more into that.
`24
`MR. KRIEGER: All right.
`25
`Q (BY MR. BLUESTONE) With respect to
`
`1 what is in 31 of Exhibit 3?
`
`Q (BY MR. BLUESTONE) Correct. And
`2
`3 Exhibit 3 is what you said previous to Exhibit 2.
`4
`A Yes. No, I think those are
`5 consistent.
`
`Q Okay. Could I apply your meaning of
`6
`7 distinguish to paragraph 31 in Exhibit 3 such that
`8 you would say it's information to classify or
`9 categorize?
`MR. KRIEGER: Objection, form.
`A Well, I mean, this sentence doesn't
`
`[\)[\)[\)>—I>—->—A>—Ar—I>—->—A>—A>—A>—AN»--o\ooo\1o~uu.I>u2N»—-o
`
`really make sense if you substitute those words in
`there. Classify or distinguish -- classify or
`categorize from at least one other piece doesn't
`really -- I think that's what classify or
`categorize means is that there's different kinds
`and you know it's this one, not some other one.
`Q (BY MR. BLUESTONE) So does classify
`or categorize mean that you can put it in one of
`two groups?
`A There doesn't have to be two.
`
`Q But it -- two or more?
`A I think so, yeah.
`23
`Q So would it be fair under claim 31 to
`24
`25 say that "distinguishing information about the
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`1 piece of Ethernet data terminal equipment“ means
`2 information to characterize the piece of Ethernet
`3 data terminal equipment?
`4
`A Yeah, I suppose it might be.
`5 Characterize, classify, or it just says here
`6 distinguish them with at least one other thing.
`7
`Q Okay. So it would be fair to accept
`8 the definition of information to characterize the
`
`9 piece of Ethernet data terminal equipment?
`10
`MR. KRIEGER: Objection, form.
`11
`A Well, let me just think about this
`12 for a second.
`
`Q (BY MR. BLUESTONE) Please.
`13
`A And your proposed change was what?
`14
`Q Well, I'm trying to go and take the
`15
`16 language you used to see if I can synthesize it
`17 down to understand what your position is. But I
`18 would say is it fair to accept the definition of
`19 information to characterize the piece of Ethernet
`20 data terminal equipment?
`21
`A I like distinguish better, but, I
`22 mean, that's just -- just my opinion, but...
`23
`Q But I mean is there anything that you
`24 would say is inaccurate as a reflection of your
`25 opinions with that statement as applying to
`
`information about the piece of Ethernet data
`1
`2 terminal equipment"?
`3
`MR. KRIEGER: Objection, form.
`MR. BLUESTONE: And would the court
`
`0O\lO’\UI-R
`
`reporter just repeat back what I said? That was a
`little bit long, I want to make sure he heard it
`completely.
`THE REPORTER: What, if anything,
`9 would you say is an accurate reflection of your
`10 opinion to apply a definition of information to
`11 characterize the piece of Ethernet data terminal
`12 equipment as being applicable to the claim language
`13 "distinguishing information about the piece of
`14 Ethernet data terminal equipment"?
`15
`A You lmow, I don't really like it all
`16 that much, to be honest with you.
`17
`Q (BY MR. BLUESTONE) What is it that
`18 you don't like?
`19
`A I think distinguishing conveys more
`20 the separating into kinds, classes, categories;
`21 whereas, characterization is just, you know,
`22 something about it.
`23
`Q Okay. What if we said information to
`24 separate into kinds, classes or categories the
`25 piece of Ethernet data terminal equipment?
`
`Page 67
`
`Page 69
`
`1 "distinguishing information about the piece of
`2 Ethernet data terminal equipment"?
`3
`A Well, to me, the distinguishing
`4 implies, as used here, implies that there's types
`5 or categories that you're putting it into. And
`6 that's what we mean when we say distinguishing at
`7 least one other piece is that there's types or
`8 categories and there's something -- at least one
`9 other thing is different that's not in this
`10 category. And I don't know that characterize
`11 really conveys that as well. Characterize is just
`12 saying something about it.
`13
`Q But that's a term that you have used
`14 to define distinguish; correct?
`15
`MR. KRIEGER: Objection, form.
`16
`A It's one of the terms that I used
`
`17 about plain and ordinary meaning of distinguish,
`18 and specifically to show that it doesn't imply that
`19 it has to be uniquely identified.
`20
`Q (BY MR. BLUESTONE) Okay. So back to
`21 my question, what, if anything, would you say is an
`22 accurate reflection of your opinion to apply a
`23 definition of infonnation to characterize the piece
`24 of Ethernet data terminal equipment as being
`25 applicable to the claim language "distinguishing
`
`A I think that's more in line with the
`
`meaning of the term, but I kinda like the claim as
`it's written, personally.
`Q And, of course, I appreciate that,
`but part of this is trying to figure out what the
`claim constructions would be, and the situation to
`
`explain why I'm even going with any of this is we
`had one definition, we have additional
`
`constructions as we see them, and I am trying to
`reconcile them. Soto the extent that I can kind
`
`of get a sense of how we reconcile that, that's
`where I'm going with this.
`A Yeah, right. And what I was doing
`here was just trying to talk about the plain and
`ordinary meaning of distinguish, which is what I
`view as being used here.
`Q And "The plain and ordinary meaning
`of distinguish," as you have said, "is," as you've
`said in Exhibit 2, paragraph 35, "is to separate
`into classes, kinds, or categories." Right?
`A Yes.
`
`[\)r—A>—Ir—->—-r—A>—A>—-r—->—-r—-O\D0O\lO'\UI-l>LoJl\)>#O\DOO\lO\UI-ht»-3l\Jr-‘
`
`21
`
`Q So if we're going to say
`22
`23 distinguishing information, it would be accurate to
`Ix)-5 say that that is information that separates into
`I\)LII kinds, classes, or categories; right?
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`MR. KRIEGER: Objection to form.
`1
`A Yeah, that, I mean, that's kinda what
`2
`3 distinguishing means.
`4
`Q (BY MR. BLUESTONE) Is there anything
`5 inaccurate about what I just said?
`6
`MR. KRIEGER: Objection, form.
`7
`A I don't know that it's necessarily
`8 inaccurate, but it seems less precise to me. I
`9 mean, I think the claim as it's written says what
`10 it means to say and when we start changing other
`11 words in, you know, we may not get as precise a
`12 meaning as we had originally.
`13
`Q (BY MR. BLUESTONE) But you have
`14 opined as to the meaning of the claim terms;
`15 correct?
`16
`A Yes.
`17
`Q And you have come to the point which
`18 you've decided to introduce alternative meanings
`19 for the word distinguish; correct?
`20
`A I -- explain what the common meanings
`21 are, yes.
`22
`Q Correct. And my question for you,
`23 sir, is in looking at what you've said in paragraph
`24 35 of Exhibit 2, am I free to use that word to
`25 substitute out distinguish in distinguishing
`
`1 about the plain and ordinary meaning of distinguish
`2 as defined in the dictionary and some synonyms for
`3 it, and concludes, "Thus, contrary to Defendants‘
`4 proposed construction, ‘Distinguish’ does not imply
`5 that a particular item is necessarily uniquely or
`6 individually identified."
`7
`So what the purpose of that paragraph
`8 is to refiite the notion that distinguish must mean
`9 that you individually identify things. That if you
`10 put them into classes or categories, you have
`11 satisfied the meaning of distinguish. It wasn't
`12 necessarily to say that you could take any one of
`13 these words and use them instead of distinguish in
`14 the claim.
`15
`Q (BY MR. BLUESTONE) Okay. But do you
`16 agree still with the first sentence in which you
`17 said that "The plain and ordinary meaning of
`18 ‘distinguish’ is ‘to separate into classes"' --
`19 sorry, '"separate into kinds, classes, or
`20 categories”?
`21
`A Yes. That's the plain and ordinary
`22 meaning.
`Okay. And that's the plain and
`23
`Q
`24 ordinary meaning after your review of the intrinsic
`25 evidence as well; correct?
`
`1
`
`information?
`
`Page 71
`
`1
`
`A Mm-hmm.
`
`Page 73
`
`A I think it provides a context for the
`2
`3 meaning of distinguish. To the extent that these
`4 oflrer words may have implications that distinguish
`5 doesn't have, then I would say maybe not. So
`6 that's my -- my hesitancy in agreeing with that.
`7
`Q So do you --
`8
`A I mean, I don't think distinguish is
`9 a hard Word.
`10
`Q So in looking at paragraph 35 now of
`11 Exhibit 2, do you still stand by your statement in
`12 paragraph 35?
`13
`A 35?
`
`Q Yeah.
`14
`A Well, again, what paragraph 35 says
`15
`16 is it gives the plain and ordinary meaning of
`17 distinguish and synonyms include, and then it says
`18 "Thus, contrary to Defendants‘ proposed
`19 construction, 'Distinguish' does not imply that a
`20 particular item is necessarily uniquely or
`21 individually identified."
`22
`THE REPORTER: Sir.
`23
`A Oh. I'm reading paragraph 35.
`24
`(Off the record discussion.)
`25
`A Start again. Paragraph 35 talks
`
`Q And the intrinsic evidence would be
`2
`3 the claims, specification, and the prosecution
`4 history; correct?
`5
`A Yes.
`6
`Q And after reviewing all that, you've
`7 come to the conclusion that the plain and ordinary
`8 meaning of distinguish is to separate into kinds,
`9 classes, or categories?
`10
`MR. KRIEGER: Objection, form.
`11
`Q (BY MR. BLUESTONE) You can answer if
`12 you understand.
`13
`A Yes.
`
`Q Okay. And if we were at trial before
`14
`15 the judge or the jury, you would not be presenting
`16 any testimony that says that your first sentence in
`17 paragraph 35 is not untrue, would you?
`18
`MR. KRIEGER: Objection, form.
`19
`A That says it's not untrue?
`20
`Q (BY MR. BLUESTONE) You wouldn't walk
`21 away from your statement, for example, in your
`22 first sentence in paragraph 35, would you?
`23
`MR. KRIEGER: Objection, form.
`24
`A I think that the first sentence in
`25 paragraph 35 is accurate. That's the meaning of
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`1 distinguish from that particular dictionary, and I
`2 am not necessarily comfortable substituting
`3 different words into the claim because, you know, I
`4 don't think distinguish is that tough a word to
`5 understand. And I think the claim is fine the way
`6 it is.
`
`Q (BY MR. BLUESTONE) I understand that
`7
`8 you're saying there's a preference of distinguish
`9 but, as you are aware, there is a dispute over what
`10 distinguish means in this case.
`11
`A Now, are you referring to the
`12 uniquely identify versus not?
`13
`Q No, just in general there's --
`14 there's differences of opinions of distinguish,
`15 let's just start with that. What I need to lmow
`16 from you is what your position is on the meaning of
`17 distinguish without using the term itself. And
`18 what I'm trying to get is, in para -- in the first
`19 sentence of paragraph 31, if I went up and said
`20 before the judge, you know, it's 1V[r. Baxter's
`21 testimony that the plain and ordinary meaning of
`22 distinguish, upon review of the intrinsic evidence,
`23 is to separate into kinds, classes, or categories,
`24 I want to make sure I'm accurately reflecting your
`25 opinion.
`
`1 am going to parse that down to just arranging
`2 impedance to distinguish. I just want to talk
`3 about what the meaning of arranging impedance to
`4 distinguish is.
`5
`Is it accurate that you are --
`6 arranging the impedance, you are separating the
`7 impedance into kinds, classes, or categories?
`8
`A No. We are arranging the impedance.
`9 We are distinguishing the terminal equipment.
`10
`Q Okay. When you do that, where --
`11 when do you know whether you have distinguished the
`12 terminal equipment?
`13
`A When does who know?
`
`Q When do you know if you're successful
`14
`15 in distinguishing the terminal equipment?
`16
`A If--iflamwho? Iflamthe
`
`17 designer?
`18
`Q Sure.
`19
`A If I am the designer? If I design it
`20 so that it will use the impedance in the path to
`21 distinguish the terminal equipment, then I test it
`22 and it does, then I am successful.
`
`23
`24
`
`Q How would you test it?
`A
`I would, the same way you test any
`25 piece of equipment. You build one, you put it
`
`Page 75
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`Page 77
`
`So my question for you now is, is
`1
`2 that statement an accurate reflection of your
`3 opinion?
`4
`MR. KRIEGER: Objection, form.
`5
`A Yes, I think that's the plain and
`6 ordinary meaning of distinguish as I have said in
`7 35.
`
`Q (BY MR. BLUESTONE) So that would --
`8
`9 what I said would be accurate if I represented that
`10 was your opinion?
`11
`MR. KRIEGER: Objection, form.
`12
`A If I said "The plain and ordinary
`13 meaning of ‘distinguish’ is ‘to separate into
`14 kinds, classes, or categories,” you're asking if
`15 that's accurate?
`
`Q (BY MR. BLUESTONE) In view of the
`16
`17 intrinsic evidence, does that meaning apply to the
`18 '012 patent?
`19
`A Yes, I believe it does.
`
`Q If we -- we were talking about claim
`20
`21 31 for a bit. There's also language where we have,
`22 in claim 67, that it's "arranging impedance within
`23 the at least one path" to distinguish the piece of
`24 terminal equipment.
`25
`For the purpose of our discussion I
`
`1 through its paces and you see if it does what you
`2 designed it to do. And if it does, then you were
`3 successful.
`
`Q But how would I know specifically
`4
`5 whether it has been arranged to distinguish?
`6 Specifically the terminal equipment has been, has
`7 been in some way distinguishable; right? That's
`8 what you're saying?
`9
`A Right. Mm-hrnrn.
`10
`Q I'm putting in impedance; correct?
`11 Once I put in that impedance, how do I know whether
`12 the overall terminal device has somehow been made
`
`13 distinguishable?
`14
`A Again, if your design goal was to use
`15 certain impedance under certain conditions to
`16 distinguish a certain characteristic, then that's
`17 how you would know. I mean, when you look at the
`18 things in those conditions, one has that
`19 characteristic, does it do this, then you know.
`20
`Q Do I -- do I know before I have even
`
`21 compared it with any other device?
`22
`A If you're a decent designer, you do,
`23 yes.
`Q And what -- what feature am I trying
`24
`25 to go and distinguish that Ethernet to data
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`let's talk specifically about the Ethernet data
`1
`2 terminal. Can you think of anything about the
`Ethernet data terminal that would not serve as
`distinguishing information?
`MR. KRIEGER: Objection, form.
`A When you say "anything about," what
`are you -- what are you talking about?
`Q (BY MR. BLUESTONE) Well, in
`paragraph 33 we have a list of a broad range of
`stuff. For example, “physical attributes" is
`11 fairly broad; correct?
`12
`A Correct.
`13
`Q I mean, it could be a lot of stuff.
`14 "Electronic attributes" is Very broad as well;
`15 correct? And as I see paragraph 33, and please
`16 correct me if I'm wrong, I see it as encompassing
`17 absolutely anything about the Ethernet data
`18 terrninal.
`19
`So my question for you is, is there
`20 anything that you can think of that would be
`21 excluded from applying as distinguishing
`22 information?
`23
`MR. KRIEGER: Objection, form.
`24
`Q (BY MR. BLUESTONE) I think the
`25 question was still open to you.
`
`1 2
`
`terminal device based on?
`MR. KRIEGER: Objection, form.
`A What feature are you --
`3
`Q (BY MR. BLUESTONE) If I am the
`4
`5 designer --
`6
`A Okay.
`7
`Q -- and I'm trying to distinguish the
`8 Ethernet data terminal device, what is the feature
`9 I am choosing as the basis of distinguishing?
`10
`A Well, that's kind of your choice as a
`11 designer. It's something you think the other end
`12 of the link would like to know, and you decide on
`13 the way to do that and you build it into the
`14 product.
`15
`Q Okay. So in -- I'm referring back to
`16 Exhibit 2 now in paragraph 33, you give a series of
`17 examples.
`18
`A Exhibit 2, which --
`19
`Q That's your October 20th Declaration,
`20 sir.
`A Oh. And paragraph what?
`21
`Q 33.
`22
`A Okay.
`23
`Q You list numerous examples,
`24
`25 "equipment processor type, hard drive capacity,
`
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`1 authorization information, physical attributes,
`2 physical configuration, electronic attributes,
`3 software configuration, and network attributes."
`4 Correct?
`
`A I'm sorry, which --
`1
`Q Is there anything that you can think
`2
`3 of that would be excluded as a distinguishing
`4 characteristic of an Ethernet data terminal?
`
`A Mm-hmm, yes.
`5
`Q All those could be bases on which you
`6
`7 would distinguish the Ethernet data terminal?
`8
`A Potentially, yeah.
`9
`Q Is there anything that you can think
`10 of that would not serve as a basis for
`11 distinguishing?
`12
`MR. KRIEGER: Objection, form.
`13
`A Well, when you're conveying
`14 information over the Ethernet, I mean, pretty much,
`15 virtually everything you send is
`16 non-distinguishable. I mean, if you're
`17 broadcasting the time of day, if you're repeating
`18 the Bloomberg stock ticker, if you're sending a
`19 video file, I mean the vast majority of information
`20 that is communicated is not distinguishing
`21 information about the terminal.
`22
`This is an unusual case where you do
`23 this. So the vast majority of stuff out there,
`24 this is not even a factor.
`
`A I think the number of things that you
`5
`6 would communicate over a technique like this are
`7 quite limited and would you limit them to things
`8 that you had some reason to want to know at the
`9 other end. You might want to know the processor
`10 type or the serial number or some other piece of
`11 information like that.
`12
`It's doubtful to me that in a low
`13 bandwidth environment like this you would be
`>— -B
`communicating things like what the user's typing
`into the keyboard right now because you're sending
`it out over the Ethernet.
`
`So there's a lot of things that are
`happening in data terminal equipment that are just
`19 temporary statusy type things that would not be
`20 really distinguishing, as opposed to things like
`21 this, which are qualities that that unit has. Not
`22 just what it's doing right now.
`23
`Q Okay. So are there any qualities
`24 that the Ethernet data terminal has that would not
`
`>—Ir—->-r—A
`
`0O\lO'\UI
`
`25
`
`Q (BY MR. BLUESTONE) Okay. So but
`
`25 be applicable as distinguishing information?
`
`www.veritext.com
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`Veritext Legal Solutions Midwest
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`21 (Pages 78 - 81)
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`MR. KRIEGER: Objection, form.
`1
`A And I think that's largely at the
`2
`3 discretion of the designer of the equipment, who
`4 can determine what information he wants to be
`
`5 distinguishing and convey it using this technique
`6 if he wants to. Or he doesn't have to convey
`7 anything at all.
`8
`I mean, it's not like have you to
`9 convey certain of these informations. Whatever is
`10 important to your product, you can decide that's
`11 distinguishing information and design it so that it
`12 communicates that via the impedance across the
`13 contacts.
`
`Q (BY MR. BLUESTONE) But if the
`14
`15 attributes of the Ethernet data terminal are
`
`16 unbounded, how does a person of ordinary skill in
`17 the art determine whether or not they have arranged
`18 the impedance to distinguish?
`19
`MR. KRIEGER: Objection, form.
`20
`A Well, you haven't arranged it to
`21 distinguish unless you have done it to indicate
`22 some particular thing. And if you've done it to
`23 indicate some particular thing, you would know.
`24
`Q (BY MR. BLUESTONE) So one example
`25 that you have is a -- is a physical attribute in
`
`Q So is that a yes, it is a physical
`attribute, or is no?
`A Again, I would think of it more as
`being an element that's in the circuit rather than
`a physical attribute, but...
`Q Does that make it an electronic
`attribute, then?
`A I suppose it could be. I can't
`imagine why you would want it to be in a real,
`practical situation. Because they're pretty much
`always there.
`Q So if they're pretty much always
`there, does that make them not attributes that can
`
`be distinguishing information?
`A Well, if everybody has an attribute,
`then there's no real distinction to it.
`
`Q And what's the universe of
`"everybody" in that circumstance?
`A Well, "everybody" in this case would
`be the products that you anticipate this thing
`working with.
`Q Okay. So back to this -- we'll come
`back to your point there, I just want to make sure
`we wrap up the Bob Smith termination aspect of
`things here.
`
`LII-l>Lo)l\)>-'O\OOO\lO\LlI-l>Lo2l\)r-‘O\O0O\IO\UI-l>UJl\)r-‘
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`[\)[\)[\)t\)[\)[\)r—->->-r—A>—A>—->-r—Ar—A>—I
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`1 claim 33, for example.
`2
`A Okay.
`3
`Q You also have electronic attribute;
`4 correct?
`
`A Okay.
`5
`Q Going back to the Bob Smith
`6
`7 terminations, would those constitute physical
`8 attributes of the Ethernet data terminal?
`
`A I mean, I -- if I was designing the
`9
`10 terminal, I would not think of them that way, no.
`11 If you're designing something, you wanted to make
`12 it that way, you could, and if you put a unique
`13 impedance signature there to indicate that, that
`14 would be fine.
`
`Q I guess I don't understand your
`15
`16 answer, I need to follow up on this. If you've
`17 just put in a Bob Smith termination, my question
`18 is, is the Bob Smith termination in an Ethernet
`
`19 data terminal -- sorry, let me rephrase that.
`20
`Is a Bob Smith termination in a piece
`21 of Ethernet data terminal equipment a physical
`22 attribute of that piece of Ethernet data terminal
`23 equipment?
`24
`A It's a part of the circuitry in the
`25 thing, yes.
`
`If I put in a Bob Smith termination
`-- and it's an electronic attribute; correct?
`
`A If you say so.
`Q Okay. Let's assume that it is. In
`that circumstance, does the mere existence of the
`
`Bob Smith termination serve to distinguish the
`device?
`
`OO\lO\'JI-l>LoJl\)P-‘
`
`A Well, does it distinguish the device
`9 by means of impedance placed between the path
`10 across the connector.
`
`Q Okay. Sure.
`11
`A And that is not obvious at all to me
`12
`13 that it would.
`
`14
`15
`
`Q Why not?
`A It -- it isn't. I mean --
`
`Q You would agree with me that the
`16
`17 implementation of the Bob Smith termination affects
`18 the impedance that would otherwise be present
`19 across the path of the Ethernet connector; correct?
`20
`A It affects the common mode impedance
`21 between pairs. Whether you're going to see that in
`22 a path between two connectors or not, or two pins
`23 or not, I'm not sure. And they have a DC blocking
`24 cap in them so you couldn't really detect it with a
`25 DC voltage. So, you know, I -- I'm not really
`
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`1 clear if you could reliably tell that or not.
`2
`Q So you don't know whether or not you
`3 could take a measurement across two contacts in
`
`4 which a Bob Smith termination implementation is
`5 present and discern whether the impedance across
`6 those two selected contacts would have changed?
`7
`MR. KRIEGER: Objection, form.
`8
`A I would have to think about that
`9 more.
`
`Q (BY MR. BLUESTONE) Okay. Maybe
`10
`11 we'll come back to that.
`
`Okay. So can you turn to paragraph
`12
`13 50 of Exhibit 2? Let me know when you have had a
`14 chance to review it.
`
`A Okay.
`15
`Q The first sentence says, "If every
`16
`17 piece of Ethernet data terminal equipment has the
`18 same particular characteristic, then that
`19 characteristic does not distinguish a piece of
`20 Ethernet data terminal equipment from any other
`21 piece of Ethernet data terminal equipment."
`22
`How do you discern the scope of what
`23 "every piece of Ethernet data terminal equipment"
`24 constitutes?
`
`25
`
`A Well, clearly, if it's every one in
`
`1 aware of what field you're in.
`2
`Q How would she be aware of which
`3 attribute of the Ethernet data terminal equipment
`4 is relevant for that comparison?
`5
`A How would the designer be aware?
`6
`Q Correct.
`7
`MR. KRIEGER: Objection to form.
`8
`A Well, the designer typically is
`9 designing to a set of requirements, there's things
`10 he wants this product to do. Cost, among other
`11 things, but fimctionality and features and so on,
`12 and so if there's something that's important to
`13 distinguish, in my experience as a designer, you
`14 would want to identify it when you're setting out
`15 the requirements for this thing.
`16
`Q (BY MR. BLUESTONE) So if the person
`17 has -- so can you give me an example of something
`18 that you might want to use to distinguish other
`19 than the Power over Ethernet standard that's been
`20 talked about?
`
`A Well, in the O and 2 specification
`21
`22 they give a number of embodiments of systems that
`23 convey identifying information, for instance, and
`24 they give a number of other types of things that
`25 you could convey.
`
`Page 87
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`Page 89
`
`the world, then the issue is moot; right? That's
`1
`2 every.
`On a more practical level, again,
`3
`4 speaking as an engineer, you are designing this
`5 product for some particular use. And what you're
`6 concerned with is the application it's going to be
`7 used in, the system it's going to be used with.
`8 Now, if it's going to be used with everything,
`9 that's a very broad thing. If it's going to be
`10 used for a more particular purpose, then that's a
`11 narrower thing.
`12
`Q So practically speaking, how do I
`13 ever decide what my scope of comparison is?
`14
`A Well, if you're designing the
`15 product, you would know.
`16
`Q Sounds rather circular. Is there
`17 another way you can explain it?
`18
`A Product designer knows what he's
`19 designed that product for and what it's going to be
`20 used with. I mean, if you're designing some
`21 special piece of military Ethernet hardware or some
`22 special piece of medical Ethernet hardware, that's
`23 different than if you're designing a thing that's
`24 going to be sold at Radio Shack. So there may be
`25 various ones, but, as a designer, you would be
`
`\OOO\lO\'JI-l>LoJl\)P-‘
`
`Q Is the