DANIEL J. UNDERSANDER, PH.D. January 19, 2017
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`Page 1
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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`H&S MANUFACTURING COMPANY, INC.,
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` Petitioner,
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` vs. Case IPR2016-00950
`
` Patent 8,166,739
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`OXBO INTERNATIONAL CORPORATION,
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` Patent Owner.
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`- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
`
` Videotape Deposition of DANIEL J. UNDERSANDER, Ph.D.
`
` Thursday, January 19, 2017
`
` 9:00 a.m. to 3:28 p.m.
`
` Reported by Jennifer M. Steidtmann, RPR, CRR
`
`DTI Court Reporting Solutions - Minnesota
`1-877-489-0367
`www.deposition.com
`
`
`
`Page 1
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
`
`H&S MANUFACTURING COMPANY, INC.,
`
` Petitioner,
`
` vs. Case IPR2016-00950
`
` Patent 8,166,739
`
`OXBO INTERNATIONAL CORPORATION,
`
` Patent Owner.
`
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
`
` Videotape Deposition of DANIEL J. UNDERSANDER, Ph.D.
`
` Thursday, January 19, 2017
`
` 9:00 a.m. to 3:28 p.m.
`
` Reported by Jennifer M. Steidtmann, RPR, CRR
`
`DTI Court Reporting Solutions - Minnesota
`1-877-489-0367
`www.deposition.com
`
`
`
`DANIEL J. UNDERSANDER, PH.D. January 19, 2017
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`Page 2
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` A P P E A R A N C E S
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`FOR THE PETITIONER:
`
` Patterson Thuente Pedersen, P.A.
` Mr. Eric H. Chadwick
` 80 South Eighth Street, Suite 4800
` Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402
` chadwick@ptslaw.com
` 612-349-5740
`
`FOR THE PATENT OWNER:
`
` MERCHANT & GOULD, P.C.
` Mr. Shane A. Brunner
` 10 East Doty Street, Suite 600
` Madison, Wisconsin 53702
` SBrunner@merchantgould.com
` 608-280-6753
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
` Steve Peters, Videographer
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`1-877-489-0367
`www.deposition.com
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`DANIEL J. UNDERSANDER, PH.D. January 19, 2017
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`Page 3
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` I N D E X
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` WITNESS EXAMINATION PAGE
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`DR. DANIEL J. UNDERSANDER, Ph.D.
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` EXAMINATION BY MR. BRUNNER 5
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` E X H I B I T S
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` NUMBER PAGE IDENTIFIED
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` Exhibit 1 Deposition notice 8
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` Exhibit 2 D. Undersander report 9
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` Exhibit 3 European Patent Application 0 789 990 44
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` Exhibit 4 U.S. Patent 5,031,394 44
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` Exhibit 5 U.S. Patent 6,415,590 45
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` Exhibit 6 U.S. Patent 6,775,969 45
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` Exhibit 7 U.S. Patent 4,932,196 45
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` Exhibit 8 Video 72
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` Exhibit 9 Article, Equipment to Rake and Merge 89
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` Hay and Forage;
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` Bates H&S 093286 through -291
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` Exhibit 10 Article, Crop Mergers: Management of 100
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` Soil Contamination and Leaf Loss in
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` Alfalfa; Bates H&S 092653 through -59
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` Exhibit 11 Article, Effect of Hay-Rake Type on 114
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` Exogenous Ash Content of Alfalfa Hay
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`DANIEL J. UNDERSANDER, PH.D. January 19, 2017
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`Page 4
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` Exhibit 12 Abstract, The Effect of Hay Rake Type 119
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` on Ash Content of First Cutting
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` Alfalfa Hay
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` Exhibit 13 Poster, Effect of Hay-Rake Type on 126
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` Exogenous Ash Content of Alfalfa Hay
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` Exhibit 14 Bechdol 2010 article 155
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` Exhibit 15 Marsh 2012 article 160
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` Exhibit 16 Drying Forage for Hay and Haylage fact179
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` sheet, D. Undersander
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` Exhibit 17 PowerPoint, Don't Make Your Cows Eat 183
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` Dirt
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` Exhibit 18 31st Kentucky Alfalfa Conference 185
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` Proceedings, 2011
`
` (Original exhibits attached to original
` transcript; copies provided to attorneys ordering
` exhibit copies.)
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` R E Q U E S T S
`
` REQUEST PAGE
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` (No requests to produce documents were made.)
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`DANIEL J. UNDERSANDER, PH.D. January 19, 2017
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`Page 5
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` TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
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` VIDEOGRAPHER: My name is Steve Peters,
`
` videographer. Today I'm here on behalf of DTI.
`
` This is the beginning of the video
`
` deposition of Daniel J. Undersander, Ph.D. on
`
` January 19, 2017. The time, 9 o'clock a.m.
`
` This is the case concerning H&S
`
` Manufacturing Company, Incorporated, petitioner,
`
` versus Oxbo International Corporation, Patent Owner.
`
` Case No. IPR2016-00950. This is pending before the
`
` United States Patent and Trademark Office before the
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` Patent Trial and Appeal Board.
`
` Will counsel now please state their
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` appearances starting with the petitioner.
`
` MR. CHADWICK: Eric Chadwick on behalf of
`
` the petitioner, H&S.
`
` MR. BRUNNER: Shane Brunner of Merchant &
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` Gould on behalf of patent owner Oxbo International.
`
` VIDEOGRAPHER: The court reporter, Jenny
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` Steidtmann, will now swear in the witness.
`
` DANIEL UNDERSANDER, called as a witness
`
` herein, having been first duly sworn on oath, was
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` examined and testified as follows:
`
` EXAMINATION
`
` BY MR. BRUNNER:
`
`DTI Court Reporting Solutions - Minnesota
`1-877-489-0367
`www.deposition.com
`
`
`
`DANIEL J. UNDERSANDER, PH.D. January 19, 2017
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`Page 6
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` Q Good morning, Dr. Undersander.
`
` A Good morning.
`
` Q Could you please state your full name for the record.
`
` A Daniel John Undersander.
`
` Q And where do you reside, Dr. Undersander?
`
` A Here in Madison.
`
` Q Have you ever been deposed before?
`
` A Not for a few years. We try to avoid that.
`
` Q And when is the -- when's the last time you were
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` deposed?
`
` A Oh, it's 20 years ago.
`
` Q How many times have you been deposed?
`
` A Not often. Couple times, maybe.
`
` Q Do you know how many as you sit here today?
`
` A How many what?
`
` Q Do you know how many times you've been deposed?
`
` A I'd say a couple times.
`
` Q Two?
`
` A Two.
`
` Q What types of proceedings were those depositions in?
`
` A Oh, one years before was in divorce proceedings, not
`
` mine. And let's see. The other one was -- I can't
`
` remember exactly right now. Some company that was
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` selling a herbicide and had some injury to a field.
`
` Q Have you ever been deposed in a case involving
`
`DTI Court Reporting Solutions - Minnesota
`1-877-489-0367
`www.deposition.com
`
`
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`DANIEL J. UNDERSANDER, PH.D. January 19, 2017
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`Page 7
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` patents?
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` A No.
`
` Q And you said that the last time you were deposed was
`
` about 20 years ago?
`
` A About that.
`
` Q Okay. I'll go over a few of the ground rules for
`
` today's deposition. First of all, is there any
`
` reason you can't give truthful testimony today?
`
` A No.
`
` Q As far as the questions and answers that we give,
`
` please try to answer with words rather than gestures
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` or uh-huhs or un-huhs.
`
` A I was waiting to see how she was going to do this.
`
` Q Yeah. Those don't transcribe very well.
`
` A Okay.
`
` Q Also, I will be asking you questions and you will be
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` giving me your answers to those questions. Please
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` let me finish my question before you give your
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` answer, and I'll try to wait for you to finish giving
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` your answer before I ask my next question, okay?
`
` Yes?
`
` A Yes, yes.
`
` Q Also if you feel at any point --
`
` A Sorry.
`
` Q If you feel at any point today you need to take a
`
`DTI Court Reporting Solutions - Minnesota
`1-877-489-0367
`www.deposition.com
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`DANIEL J. UNDERSANDER, PH.D. January 19, 2017
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`Page 8
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` break, just ask me, and you know, we can take a break
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` as long as there's no question pending. We try to
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` take a break approximately every hour or so.
`
` A Okay.
`
` Q Also, when I ask questions today, Mr. Chadwick may
`
` object. Unless he instructs you not to answer, you
`
` should still answer the question to the best that you
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` can.
`
` A Okay.
`
` (Exhibit 1 marked for identification.)
`
` BY MR. BRUNNER:
`
` Q I'm going to hand you what we've marked as
`
` Undersander Exhibit 1. Have you seen Exhibit 1
`
` before?
`
` A Which -- no.
`
` Q Exhibit 1 is the deposition notice for the proceeding
`
` here.
`
` A Yeah, I did not see this number. I saw a previous
`
` one, but not this. Go ahead.
`
` Q So do you understand that you're here today
`
` testifying in -- on behalf of H&S in this IPR
`
` proceeding?
`
` A Yes.
`
` (Exhibit 2 marked for identification.)
`
` BY MR. BRUNNER:
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`www.deposition.com
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`DANIEL J. UNDERSANDER, PH.D. January 19, 2017
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`Page 9
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` Q Also going to hand you, we'll mark it as Undersander
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` Exhibit 2, it is also Exhibit 1008 filed by H&S in
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` this proceeding. Do you recognize Exhibit 2?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q What is Exhibit 2?
`
` A Assuming there have been no changes made, this is the
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` document that I filed, my expert report.
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` Q I'd like you to turn to Attachment A of Exhibit 2.
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` A Referee journal articles?
`
` Q It's attach -- Attachment A.
`
` A Where is that?
`
` Q Let me see that.
`
` A Oh, okay.
`
` Q It's double-sided, so maybe that was a bit confusing.
`
` A Okay.
`
` Q So can you tell me what Attachment A is?
`
` A Attachment A is my vitae.
`
` Q And is that -- is that vitae complete and accurate?
`
` A Well, it's accurate. Complete depends on what you
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` expect to be in there. For example, I've done 100
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` refereed journal articles, and I only list the last
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` five years. So it's accurate but not complete for my
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` history.
`
` Q Okay. So when you list your journal articles, you
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` only list the last five years of journal articles?
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`1-877-489-0367
`www.deposition.com
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`DANIEL J. UNDERSANDER, PH.D. January 19, 2017
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`Page 10
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` A That's our standard, yes.
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` Q All right. With respect to other publications or
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` talks or other items listed in your CV, do you make
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` limitations on -- on the years in which you list?
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` A Oh, then you're talking -- so just a second. So then
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` Attachment A goes back and includes the publications
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` report. Is that a part of Attachment A?
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` Q As I understand it, yes.
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` A Okay. Well, then it would include all of the
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` refereed journal articles.
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` Q Okay. So there is -- you do not have a five-year
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` limitation, you actually have included all of the
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` articles that you have written?
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` A If you look on the third page, it says publications
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` last five years. That's what I was referring to as
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` my vitae, and then the list of journal articles is a
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` total listing.
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` Q Okay. And the list of journal articles, that is --
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` starts with the document that says publications
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` report of Dr. Dan Undersander?
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` A That is correct. I'd forgotten that was in there.
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` Q Are there any updates or corrections that you would
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` need to make to your curriculum vitae?
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` A Again, depending on your terminology, we consider the
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` curriculum vitae to be the first three pages, and the
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`DTI Court Reporting Solutions - Minnesota
`1-877-489-0367
`www.deposition.com
`
`
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`DANIEL J. UNDERSANDER, PH.D. January 19, 2017
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`Page 11
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` refereed journal articles is a separate effort. I'm
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` continually writing articles, so there would be 100
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` or more listings beyond what -- when this was turned
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` in a year or so ago.
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` Q So you have approximately 100 more items that you
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` would list in your publications report since you
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` provided this?
`
` A That's a rough estimate. Let's see. Because this
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` includes station publications and proceedings and
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` number -- and articles for magazines, so roughly.
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` I'm guessing. I could be off a little, but
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` significantly more.
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` Q Have -- do you have in your possession a more updated
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` version of your publications report?
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` A No.
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` Q How often do you go about updating your publications
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` report?
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` A Well, the publications report is -- is not used
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` within the university, so I just update that
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` infrequently. And I did it about a year ago for this
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` and was not intending to do it again.
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` Q So -- so as of today, your -- your most current
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` version of the publication report that you maintain
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` is what we're looking at here?
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` A Yeah, that is correct. Yes. Again, you know, I'm
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`DTI Court Reporting Solutions - Minnesota
`1-877-489-0367
`www.deposition.com
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`DANIEL J. UNDERSANDER, PH.D. January 19, 2017
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`Page 12
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` doing a couple a week, so I can't keep updating every
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` week.
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` Q Sure. So then with your curriculum vitae, which you
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` consider to be the first three pages of Attachment A,
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` are there any updates or corrections that you would
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` need to make to this as you sit here today?
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` A Oh, I've got a few more awards and I think one or two
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` refereed -- well, at least one refereed journal
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` article. Let's see. When was the last one in here?
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` 2015. Oh, maybe just one more refereed journal
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` article and three awards.
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` Q What is the additional refereed journal article?
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` A I'd have to go back and check.
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` Q So as you sit here today, you don't know what it is?
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` A That's correct. I'm sorry.
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` Q Do you know -- do you know what the subject matter of
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` it is?
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` A We have a couple in press relating to ash content of
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` forage, and then another one relating to an
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` environmental aspect of forage composition.
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` Q Is the ash content of forage article an article that
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` has been published?
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` A That's in review at this point. There's graphs that
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` are being circulated. It has not been published.
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` Q Do you know which journal will publish it?
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`DTI Court Reporting Solutions - Minnesota
`1-877-489-0367
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`DANIEL J. UNDERSANDER, PH.D. January 19, 2017
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`Page 13
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` A Not 100 percent sure, but probably the Agronomy
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` Journal. A graduate student is writing it, and I am
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` a secondary author. So it is up to her to decide
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` where it will be published.
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` Q Are you -- what's the name of the graduate student?
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` A Abbey Neu.
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` Q How do you spell that last name?
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` A A-B-B-E-Y, N-E-U.
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` Q Are there any other authors on that article?
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` A Yes. There's five or six. Greg Sheaffer from
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` Minnesota, Marvin Hall from Pennsylvania, and it
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` seems like there's another person -- I guess another
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` person from Pennsylvania. So maybe just three more.
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` Q So you don't recall the last person?
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` A No. No, no.
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` Q And this article relation -- relating to the ash
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` content of forage, is that based upon a study that
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` you conducted?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q When did you conduct that study?
`
` A In 2015.
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` Q Do you possess a copy of the -- of the draft
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` manuscript?
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` A Yes.
`
` Q Did you present any abstracts or posters regarding
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`www.deposition.com
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`DANIEL J. UNDERSANDER, PH.D. January 19, 2017
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`Page 14
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` this article and the study behind it?
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` A The student did one last summer in 2016, which also
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` would be in addition to my publications as an
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` abstract.
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` Q Have you provided the draft manuscript to H&S's
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` lawyers?
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` A No.
`
` Q Have you provided draft -- the poster or abstract to
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` H&S's lawyers?
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` A No.
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` Q Do you have a copy of the abstract and the poster?
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` A Yes.
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` Q Can you maintain that at your -- at your business?
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` A It's on my --
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` MR. CHADWICK: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: Okay.
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` MR. CHADWICK: You can answer. If I
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` object, you can answer.
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` THE WITNESS: Excuse me?
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` MR. CHADWICK: You can answer the question
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` after I object.
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` THE WITNESS: It's on my computer.
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` BY MR. BRUNNER:
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` Q Did this article relating to ash content of forage
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` relate at all to windrow mergers?
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`DANIEL J. UNDERSANDER, PH.D. January 19, 2017
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`Page 15
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` A Yes.
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` Q In what way did it relate to windrow mergers?
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` A We set up a study in three states, Minnesota,
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` Wisconsin and Pennsylvania, and we tested the effect
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` of three rake types and a merger on ash content of
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` the hay.
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` Q And can you summarize the conclusions of that study?
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` A The conclusion in crude form was that rotary rakes
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` and mergers had 1 percent less ash than the other
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` rake types in the hay.
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` Q Did mergers perform better in ash content than rotary
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` rakes?
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` A No.
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` Q Did you recommend that users looking to reduce ash
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` content should use windrow mergers?
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` A As -- as an option, yes.
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` Q Did you recommend that users -- did you recommend
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` that to reduce ash content, users should use rotary
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` rakes?
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` A I have reported the data basically as I stated to you
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` that if a rotary rake is properly adjusted, it
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` appears that the ash content is not significantly
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` different than hay handled by a merger.
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` Q But the windrow merger had less ash content than
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` rotary rakes --
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`DANIEL J. UNDERSANDER, PH.D. January 19, 2017
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`Page 16
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` A No.
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` Q -- or any other rake?
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` A No. What -- what I think I just said was that the
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` rotary rake and the merger had the same ash content,
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` and 1 percent -- both were 1 percent less ash than
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` the other two rake types.
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` Q So it's your testimony today that this article and
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` study that you did concluded that windrow mergers and
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` rotary rakes had the same ash content?
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` MR. CHADWICK: Objection. Form.
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` BY MR. BRUNNER:
`
` Q In the windrow crop.
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` A That's what the data appears to present.
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` Q Unequivocally?
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` MR. CHADWICK: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: Yeah, never unequivocally.
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` There's always a probability with the results. So
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` our data would say there was no statistically
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` significant difference.
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` BY MR. BRUNNER:
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` Q Setting aside whether it was statistically
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` significant, did the windrow merger have less ash in
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` the windrow crop?
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` A I don't remember the specific number.
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` Q Why did you do that study?
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`DANIEL J. UNDERSANDER, PH.D. January 19, 2017
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`Page 17
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` A There's need to do research on -- on management and
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` use of machinery and hay harvesting, and in
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` particular one of the other partners is a horse
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` specialist, and horses are particularly sensitive to
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` ash content in forage. They get a condition called
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` sand colic, which can make them sick and maybe kill
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` them.
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` Q So you did -- did the study because of -- there's a
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` need to study the management, hay management, and the
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` effect on horses?
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` A Right.
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` Q Ash's effect on horses?
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` A Right. And of course it's also effective for cattle.
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` Each 1 percent more ash is 1 percent less TDN. .98,
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` technically.
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` Q So is a 1 percent difference in ash content
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` significant to feeding the cattle?
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` MR. CHADWICK: Object to form.
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` THE WITNESS: It does mean that the forage
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` will have less energy on a dry matter basis. That
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` may or may not be significant.
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` BY MR. BRUNNER:
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` Q Well, what do you mean, "it may or may not be
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` significant"?
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` A Well, depends on the energy need of the animal; and
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`DANIEL J. UNDERSANDER, PH.D. January 19, 2017
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`Page 18
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` if we're feeding it to animals where we have adequate
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` energy, then 1 percent less is not significant. If
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` we're right on the edge, then 1 percent less could
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` mean less milk, less meat.
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` Q So 1 -- a 1 percent difference in ash content can be
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` significant?
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` A Yes, it can.
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` Q Where do you currently work?
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` A University of Wisconsin.
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` Q And what is your title?
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` A As indicated in the CV there, I'm professor of
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` agronomy.
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` Q Do you teach classes?
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` A No.
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` Q What -- what does your job consist of?
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` A I'm one of the half a dozen or so people at the
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` university that are research and extension as this
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` says, so my job is to work with farmers. And so I
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` work with them at meetings and visit farms, and
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` because I'm having to do that and travel so much, I
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` can't be teaching courses.
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` Q And you indicate on your CV that you spend 85 percent
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` of your time on extension and 15 percent on research?
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` A That's the official designation, yeah.
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` Q When you say that you are working with farmers, is
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`DANIEL J. UNDERSANDER, PH.D. January 19, 2017
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`Page 19
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` that -- is that just in the State of Wisconsin?
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` A No. All over the world.
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` Q So you cover the -- you cover the entire United
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` States?
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` A Yes. And Canada and Mexico and China and Finland,
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` Estonia, Germany.
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` Q So visiting and teaching farmers, that's the
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` extension work?
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` A Yes.
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` Q And what is the research work?
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` A I'm a forage agronomist, and so the research work
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` pertains to testing varieties, looking at forage
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` quality analysis, and then doing research on
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` harvesting and preservation of forage.
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` Q And the article that we were just discussing, the ash
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` content and forage, is that an example of the
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` research that you do?
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` A That would relate to harvesting and preservation,
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` yes.
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` Q What areas are you involved in other than forage
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` harvesting?
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` A For research?
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` Q Yes.
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` A Well, we have a number of studies on -- with our
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` animal scientists on fiber digestibility. So we're
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`DANIEL J. UNDERSANDER, PH.D. January 19, 2017
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`Page 20
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` looking at utilization and estimation of the quality
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` and feeding animals. We've done some studies in --
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` as I said, we run variety trials, so we look at
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` disease and insect resistance of crops and the effect
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` on yield. I guess those would be the major kinds of
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` things.
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` Q So in those other things, the quality and variety
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` aspects that you just mentioned, those also relate to
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` forage, though, correct?
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` A Only forages, correct.
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` Q So that's what you do is forage?
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` A Exactly. I'm the state extension forage agronomist.
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` Q Are there other forage agronomists at the University
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` of Wisconsin?
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` A There is one at River Falls who is research and
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` teaching -- extension and teaching, excuse me.
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` Q And what's that person's name?
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` A Yoana Newman, Y-O-A.
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` Q So you note in your expert report that you have 40
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` years of experience with hay and haylage making?
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` A Yes.
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` Q What is hay and haylage making?
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` A Well, hay is a dried forage product. It is harvested
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` at, depending on bale size and form, something less
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` than 15 percent moisture and preserved as a dry
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`DTI Court Reporting Solutions - Minnesota
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`DANIEL J. UNDERSANDER, PH.D. January 19, 2017
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`Page 21
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` product. So it can be baled, chopped, but usually
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` baled. Haylage is a fermented product that is put up
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` at a higher moisture level, usually something in the
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` 50 to 65 percent moisture range. So the bulk of the
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` forage for dairy animals in the Midwest is haylage,
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` and then some hay is produced here. And then in the
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` western states where drying conditions are better,
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` then it's mainly hay that is produced and no haylage.
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` Q Why is haylage the primary feed for animals in the
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` Midwest?
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` A Because it rains in the Midwest every two to four
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` days, and we have difficulty getting forage dried
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` down to 15 percent. Haylage, we can mow it and put
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` it up in a bunker or two, either in the same day or
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` often within 24 hours. Hay might take three to five
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` days to dry, and so the chances of it getting rained
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` on and being damaged are high in the Midwest.
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` Q Are -- is either hay or haylage a more desirable food
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` product for dairy cattle?
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` A Not really. There's -- in the Midwest, we can get
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` higher quality if we put up haylage because it
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` doesn't get rained on. In the west where they can
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` put up dry hay, they can put up comparable quality as
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` hay. So different environments, different products.
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` Q So what -- what areas of the country would have
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`DTI Court Reporting Solutions - Minnesota
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`DANIEL J. UNDERSANDER, PH.D. January 19, 2017
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`Page 22
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` primarily a hay product?
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` A A hay product would be in the semi-arid western
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` states, so the Dakotas, Kansas, Nebraska, Colorado,
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` Idaho, Utah, Eastern Washington and Oregon. And then
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` there's some in California.
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` Q What do you mean by "there's some in California"?
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` A Well, I guess mostly what they're putting up is hay.
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` They are doing some silage because they have dairy,
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` but it's primarily hay in California.
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` Q So when you say silage, what is that?
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` A Oh, I'm going to use the term silage and haylage
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` interchangeably. They're both a high moisture
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` fermented product.
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` Q So you said in California because there's some
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` daily -- because there's dairy, they do silage?
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` A Right.
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` Q Does that mean that for dairy cattle, silage is the
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` preferred food?
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` A Not necessarily. If you have good drying conditions,
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` you can put up equal quality either way. Silage is
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` difficult to move, so anything that is going to be
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` transported is generally made as hay. Anything that
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` can be harvested and put up on the farm is oftentimes
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` put up as haylage.
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` Q So I'm wondering why you said, though, that because
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`DTI Court Reporting Solutions - Minnesota
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`DANIEL J. UNDERSANDER, PH.D. January 19, 2017
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`Page 23
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` there's some dairy in California, they are doing --
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` they also do silage? Is there a connection between
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` having dairy and doing silage?
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` A Right. My point was that some of the dairies have
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` land nearby from which forage is harvested, and then
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` they're putting up corn silage and some alfalfa. But
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` a lot of the dairies have land -- have only milking
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` facilities and then they haul in hay from other parts
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` of the west. Again, hay can be transported easily.
`
` Q Can you just briefly describe your educational
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` background?
`
` A So I got my bachelor's degree at the University of
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` Minnesota. I have to check the years here.
`
` Q Feel free.
`
` A It's whatever this sheet says. About '72. I got a
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` master's and a Ph.D. from Purdue University in 1974
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` and '75, respectively.
`
` Q And your major or pursuit of study for each of your
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` degrees is agronomy?
`
` A Forage and specifically as part of agronomy, yes.
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` Not as an undergraduate. You don't declare a
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` major -- you declare a major in agronomy as an
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` undergraduate, but not a crop.
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` Q And what was your dissertation in?
`
` A My Ph.D. dissertation was on the effect of the brown
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`DTI Court Reporting Solutions - Minnesota
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`DANIEL J. UNDERSANDER, PH.D. January 19, 2017
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`Page 24
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` midrib gene on enzymes in brown midrib corn and
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` sorghum, which is a silage crop or a forage crop
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` that's fed to cattle.
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` Q Sorghum?
`
` A Sorghum and corn.
`
` Q And just generally, what is the study of agronomy?
`
` A Agronomy is generally crop production. So it is
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` everything from the establishment of a crop to the
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` management during growth, which might include
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` fertilization, fungicides, and so on, and then it is
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` the harvesting and storage of that crop.
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` Q Do you have any education in mechanical engineering?
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` A Well, I took a couple courses, but I am not an
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` engineer and don't pretend to be.
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` Q Do you have any degrees in -- involving the design of
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` agricultural machines?
`
` A No.
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` Q Do you have any professional licenses?
`
` A No.
`
` Q Are you named as an inventor on any patents?
`
` A No.
`
` Q Have you ever applied for a patent?
`
` A No.
`
` Q Do you have any education or training relating to
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` patents?
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`DANIEL J. UNDERSANDER, PH.D. January 19, 2017
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`Page 25
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` A No.
`
` Q Are you familiar with the patent examination process?
`
` A No.
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` Q Do you know what it means to infringe a patent?
`
` A Generally.
`
` Q What is your understanding?
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` MR. CHADWICK: Objection. Relevance.
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` You can answer.
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` THE WITNESS: My understanding would be
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` somebody using something similar to a patented
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` product that they do not have the rights to.
`
` BY MR. BRUNNER:
`
` Q And is that the extent of your understanding?
`
` A Yeah. I haven't been involved in the legalities
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` since I haven't patented or been involved in a patent
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` application.
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` Q Do you have an understanding of the legal standards
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` for invalidating a patent in an inter-party's review
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` proceeding?
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` A No.
`
` Q In your report here, Exhibit 2, you do not have an
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` opinion on the validity of any of Oxbo's windrow
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` merger patents, do you?
`
` A No.
`
` Q In your report you say you have great familiarity
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`DTI Court Reporting Solutions - Minnesota
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`DANIEL J. UNDERSANDER, PH.D. January 19, 2017
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`Page 26
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` with forage harvesting practices and the equipment
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` used to accomplish the harvest?
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` A Yes.
`
` Q
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