.
`
`UNITED STATES
`INTERNATIONAL TRADE COMMISSION
`
`
`
`
`
`In the Matter of:
`
`CERTAIN MOBILE DEVICES
`
`AND RELATED SOFTWARE
`
`
`
`Investigation No.
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`337—TA~750
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`9
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`OPEN SESSION
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`Pages:
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`783 through 1106 (with excerpts)
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`Place:
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`Washington, D.C.
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`Date:
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`September 28, 2011
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`HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION
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`‘
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`Ofiicial Reporters
`1220 L Street, N.W., Suite 600
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`Washington, D.C. 20005
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`(202) 628—4888
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`contracts@hrccoumeporters.com
`
`.
`
`
`
`UNITED STATES
`INTERNATIONAL TRADE COMMISSION
`
`
`
`
`
`In the Matter of:
`
`CERTAIN MOBILE DEVICES
`
`AND RELATED SOFTWARE
`
`
`
`Investigation No.
`
`337—TA~750
`
`)
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`)
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`)
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`9
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`OPEN SESSION
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`Pages:
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`783 through 1106 (with excerpts)
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`Place:
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`Washington, D.C.
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`Date:
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`September 28, 2011
`
`HERITAGE REPORTING CORPORATION
`
`‘
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`Ofiicial Reporters
`1220 L Street, N.W., Suite 600
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`Washington, D.C. 20005
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`(202) 628—4888
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`contracts@hrccoumeporters.com
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`783
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`BEFORE THE
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`UNITED STATES INTERNATIONAL TRADE COMMISSION
`
`
`
`In the Matter of:
`
`CERTAIN MOBILE DEVICES
`
`AND RELATED SOFTWARE
`
`
`
`Investigation No.
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`337-TAo750
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`)
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`)
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`Hearing Room A
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`United States
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`International Trade Commission
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`500 E Street, Southwest
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`Washington, D.C.
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`Wednesday, September 28, 2011
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`VOLUME III
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`The parties met, pursuant to the notice of the
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`Judge, at 9:00 a.m.
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`BEFORE:
`
`THE HONORABLE THEODORE R. ESSEX
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`Heritage Reporting Corporation
`(202) 628—4888
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`
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`APPEARANCES:
`
`For Complainant Apple:
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`784
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`MARK G. DAVIS, ESQ.
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`BRIAN E. FERGUSON, ESQ.
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`ROBERT T. VLASIS, ESQ.
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`EDWARD S.
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`JOU, ESQ.
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`CHRISTOPHER T. MARANDO, ESQ.
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`Weil, Gotshal & Manges LLP
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`1300 Eye Street, N.W., Suite 900
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`Washington, D.C. 20005
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`JILL J. HO, ESQ.
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`BRIAN C. CHANG, ESQ.
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`Weil, Gotshal & Manges LLP
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`201 Redwood Shores Parkway
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`Redwood Shores, CA 94065
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`MATTHEW D. POWERS, ESQ.
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`STEVEN S. CHERENSKY, ESQ.
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`PAUL T. EHRLICH, ESQ.
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`ROBERT L. GERRITY, ESQ.
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`Tensegrity Law Group LLP
`
`201 Redwood Shore Parkway
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`Redwood Shores, CA 94065
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`(202) 628—4888
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`APPEARANCES (Continued):
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`For Respondent Motorola Mobility, Inc.:
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`CHARLES K. VERHOEVEN, ESQ.
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`DAVID EISEMAN, ESQ.
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`Quinn Emanuel Urquhart & Sullivan LLP
`
`50 California Street, 22nd Floor
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`San Francisco, CA 94111
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`EDWARD J. DeFRANCO, ESQ.
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`Quinn Emanuel Urquhart & Sullivan LLP
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`51 Madison Avenue, 22nd FLoor
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`New York, New York 10010
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`DAVID A. NELSON, ESQ.
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`Quinn Emanuel Urquhart & Sullivan LLP
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`500 West Madison Street, Suite 2450
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`Chicago, Illinois 60661
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`APPEARANCES
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`(Cont’d):
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`For ITC Staff:
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`LISA KATTAN, ESQ.
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`ANNE GOALWIN, ESQ.
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`U.S. International Trade Commission
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`500 E Street, S.W.
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`Washington, D.C. 20436
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`Attorney—Advisor:
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`GREGORY MOLDAFSKY, ESQ.
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`Attorney—Advisor
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`Office of Administrative Law Judges
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`U.S. International Trade Commission
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`500 E Street, S.W.
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`Washington, D.C. 20436
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`For Witness
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`Simmons:
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`ALAN J. HEINRICH, ESQ.
`
`Irell & Manella LLP
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`1800 Avenue of the Stars, Suite 900
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`Los Angeles, CA 90067
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`*** Index appears at end of transcript ***
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`Heritage Reporting Corporation
`(202) 628—4888
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`787
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`P R O C E E D I N G S
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`(9:00 a m.)
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`JUDGE ESSEX: All right.
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`Do we have
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`any housekeeping to take up before we begin?
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`MR. POWERS: Yes, we do, Your Honor,
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`briefly. We have been meeting and discussing
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`on a number of subjects, and first there is a
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`number of witnesses who are being dropped, so
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`we can give you the updated witness order for
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`the rest of the trial.
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`Second,
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`there have been a number of
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`prior art references that have been dropped by
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`Motorola, so we will have a list and a
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`stipulation for you that details which ones are
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`in and which ones are out.
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`And, finally,
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`the parties have met and
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`conferred and agreed on scheduling, and have
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`agreed that because of some schedule issues, we
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`will do the remaining fact witnesses for
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`Motorola today, and we will give you that list
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`of who they are, who are coming live. We will
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`then, with Your Honor’s permission, stop for
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`the day. That won’t take the entire day and
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`begin crosses of Motorola’s two experts
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`tomorrow morning with the View that that will
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`take most of the day tomorrow.
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`JUDGE ESSEX: Let me stop you just
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`there. Does that mean we’re going to set aside
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`our good Doctor and sandwich him around fact
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`witnesses?
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`MR. POWERS: We will begin, of course,
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`finishing Dr. Subramanian.
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`JUDGE ESSEX: Of course.
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`If you can
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`do it,
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`I won’t object to it necessarily, but I
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`would have to explain to him that his
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`conversations are being restricted.
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`Go ahead.
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`MR. POWERS: We will finish
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`Dr. Subramanian this morning, and then begin
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`the fact witnesses.
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`JUDGE ESSEX: All right.
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`MR. POWERS:
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`Even that won’t consume
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`the entirety of the day.
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`JUDGE ESSEX: All right. That’s fine.
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`MR. POWERS:
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`The last bit is that the
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`parties have all agreed that we will finish the
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`evidentiary hearing on Friday,
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`that to
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`accommodate schedules and everything else,
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`everybody agrees that the testimony will be
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`completed by the end of the day Friday.
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`JUDGE ESSEX: Again, if we do that,
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`that will be splendid.
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`If we don’t,
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`I want you
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`to develop your cases as you think they need to
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`be developed.
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`So that’s —— I work here.
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`I
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`will be here Monday whether I am listening to
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`you all or whether I am doing something else.
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`Again, don’t start talking faster just to try
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`to hold to that, but I appreciate your
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`cooperation.
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`It is very wonderful.
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`MR. POWERS: All right.
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`JUDGE ESSEX: All right.
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`MR. VERHOEVEN:
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`I think we’re ready to
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`go, Your Honor.
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`JUDGE ESSEX: All right.
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`Do we have
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`Doctor —— yes, very good.
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`Whereupon——
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`VIVEK SUBRAMANIAN,
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`a witness, called for examination, having previously
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`been duly sworn, was examined and testified further as
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`follows:
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`Honor.
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`THE WITNESS: Good morning, Your
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`JUDGE ESSEX: Good morning, Doctor.
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`Welcome back.
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`Please be seated.
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`I remind you,
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`you are still under oath.
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`THE WITNESS:
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`I understand that.
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`JUDGE ESSEX: Appreciate it.
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`CROSS—EXAMINATION —— Resumed
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`BY MR. VERHOEVEN:
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`Q.
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`We are still on the confidential
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`Motorola/Atmel record.
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`JUDGE ESSEX: All right. We’re
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`appropriately configured by sign.
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`(Whereupon,
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`the trial proceeded in
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`confidential session.)
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`839
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`O P E N
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`S E S S I O N
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`BY MR. VERHOEVEN:
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`Q.
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`Ryan, can we put up RDX—ZO, slide 51,
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`please.
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`I am just going to refer to you as
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`Doctor,
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`so I don’t butcher your last name.
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`A.
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`Q.
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`That's fine.
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`Doctor,
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`I would like to switch to the
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`claim construction issue,
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`in particular,
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`this
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`phrase "lines" that appears in claim 1, among
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`other places.
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`I have just highlighted it to
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`give you some context before I go into it.
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`So you see where it appears in claim
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`1?
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`A.
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`Yes,
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`there is a few other places it
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`appears, but you have certainly highlighted two
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`of them.
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`Q.
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`A first layer having a plurality of
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`transparent first conductive lines, second
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`layer spatially separated from the first layer
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`and having a plurality of transparent second
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`conductive lines, right?
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`A.
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`Q.
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`Correct.
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`And if we go —— there is a claim
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`construction issue with respect to lines,
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`correct?
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`A.
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`Yes,
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`if you mean there is a
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`disagreement,
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`I agree.
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`Q.
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`Right. Well, exactly.
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`So on slide 52, which I have put up on
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`the screen,
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`this is simply the chart
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`-— and
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`hopefully I got this one right with respect to
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`the Staff’s position, Your Honor.
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`The claim term is lines. Apple and
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`the Staff says plain and ordinary meaning.
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`Is
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`that your understanding?
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`A.
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`Q.
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`I believe that’s right.
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`And Motorola has proposed a
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`construction of lines, "narrow, continuous
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`extents of length with constant line width."
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`And you disagree that that’s an appropriate
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`construction, correct?
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`A.
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`Q.
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`Correct.
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`And you think lines could mean any
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`shape;
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`is that right?
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`A.
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`I didn't say it could mean any shape.
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`I said it is the plain and ordinary meaning.
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`And I have provided two descriptions within the
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`specification that indicate what it could be.
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`Q.
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`Okay.
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`Now, if we were to look at —-
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`let’s take a step back.
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`So let’s talk about
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`plain and ordinary meaning for a second.
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`If we were to look at a dictionary
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`definition of the word lines,
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`there is going to
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`be a whole bunch of plain and ordinary meanings
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`of the word lines that are all different,
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`aren’t there?
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`A.
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`I don’t know what you mean, if you are
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`being field specific with respect ——
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`Q.
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`Well, here.
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`I have put up on slide
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`53, Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary,
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`11th edition, 2005.
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`Do you see up there, it
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`says line?
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`A.
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`Q.
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`I do.
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`There is two full screen shots full of
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`definitions, different definitions for line,
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`isn’t there?
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`A.
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`Q.
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`There appear to be, yes.
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`I mean,
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`there is line of argument,
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`length of cord, a device for catching fish,
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`piping,
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`telephone connection, a short letter.
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`And it goes on and on.
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`A.
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`Yes,
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`I am disappointed, given that it
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`is fall,
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`that you left out line of scrimmage,
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`but I agree.
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`Q.
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`There you go. Not all of these
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`definitions are appropriate for the meaning of
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`line in the patent, fair?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
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`Within this RDX~20.053, yes,
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`I agree.
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`I mean, even if you all agree that
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`we’re going to pick a plain and ordinary
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`meaning, you have got to —— it is not all of
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`this, right?
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`A.
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`Q.
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`Yes,
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`I agree.
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`You have got to look at the context
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`and figure out which plain and ordinary meaning
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`you’re talking about, right?
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`A.
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`Well, plain and ordinary meaning is
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`always done through the eyes of one of skill in
`
`the art.
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`So, yes,
`
`I agree with that.
`
`Q.
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`Definition number 8 here is a plain
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`and ordinary meaning for line, it says,
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`"a
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`straight or curved geometric element that is
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`generated by a moving point and that has
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`extension only along the path of the curve."
`
`Do you see that?
`
`A.
`
`I see that. That is not a plain and
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`ordinary meaning with respect to the field of
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`the invention.
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`Q.
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`This is the geometric definition of
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`line, right?
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`A.
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`Yes,
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`I agree,
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`that appears to be
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`geometry—related.
`
`Q.
`
`Now,
`
`isn’t it fair that one of
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`ordinary skill in the art looking at the
`
`specification here and thinking, well, even if
`
`I am going to apply plain and ordinary meaning,
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`that they would understand that the patent,
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`when it is talking about these conductive
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`lines,
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`is talking about a geometric meaning of
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`line?
`
`A.
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`No,
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`I disagree completely. Firstly,
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`if you read the —— firstly, as used in
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`electrical engineering,
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`lines are routinely
`
`used to describe things that would not meet the
`
`requirements of the definition you have
`
`provided in RDX-20.056,
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`item 8.
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`Second,
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`the specification makes very
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`clear what it is, and it is,
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`in fact,
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`consistent with how it is used in this field.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`All right.
`
`It is not
`
`~—
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`Go ahead.
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`It is not limited to something that is
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`a straight or curved geometric element that is
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`generated by a moving point and that has
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`extension only along the path of the point.
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`Q.
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`Well,
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`let’s go to the specification.
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`You are referring to what I have just put up on
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`the screen, column 14,
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`lines 23 through 36;
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`is
`
`that right?
`
`A.
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`That is one of the things I am
`
`referring to, yes.
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`Q.
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`Let’s just walk through what this
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`paragraph is saying.
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`It says, again, for the
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`record,
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`I am on JX—ZO, slide 57, which is
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`depicting column 14,
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`lines 23 through 36 of the
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`’607 patent.
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`It says,
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`the lines 152 may be formed
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`from almost any shape whether rectilinear or
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`curvilinear.
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`Do you see that?
`
`A.
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`Q.
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`I do.
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`Now,
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`I see it says almost any shape,
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`but then it says whether rectilinear or
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`curvilinear?
`
`A.
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`It does say rectilinear and
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`curvilinear.
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`Q.
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`And rectilinear is a geometric term,
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`isn’t it?
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`A.
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`Rectilinear itself, yes,
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`I agree.
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`Q.
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`Here is the definition from Merriam
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`Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary, 11th edition,
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`2005.
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`I have displayed it on slide 58.
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`"Rectilinear: Moving in or forming a straight
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`line."
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`Do you see that?
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`A.
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`That is one of them.
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`I would also
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`point to number 2, which is Characterized by
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`straight lines,
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`for example,
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`the skyline of a
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`modern city.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay. And then curvilinear I have put
`
`on the screen,
`
`.059, slide 059. And there is
`
`Merriam Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary, 2005
`
`as well. Curvilinear is consisting of or
`
`bounded by curved lines, represented by a
`
`curved line, right?
`
`A.
`
`Yes, and, again,
`
`I would also point to
`
`the second one, marked by flowing tracery.
`
`Q.
`
`So when we go back to the spec,
`
`isn’t
`
`it clear that they are talking about the
`
`geometric meaning of lines? They are not
`
`talking about writing a letter,
`
`they are not
`
`talking about waiting in a queue,
`
`they are
`
`talking about geometrics?
`
`A.
`
`No,
`
`I disagree. First,
`
`I do agree
`
`they are not talking about writing a letter or
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`waiting in a queue.
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`I agree with that.
`
`They
`
`are talking about lines as used in this
`
`application. And it says that the lines may be
`
`formed from almost any shape.
`
`The shapes themselves, it applies
`
`geometric characterizations to those, where it
`
`says whether they are rectilinear or
`
`curvilinear and,
`
`in fact,
`
`this is exactly what
`
`I have mentioned —— what I have shown to you
`
`earlier in my direct.
`
`I have pointed out that
`
`you could construct lines out of, for example,
`
`a series of diamonds connected together. That
`
`would be fine.
`
`Because the diamonds are rectilinear.
`
`They are characterized by lines.
`
`They could be
`
`little ovals connected end to end.
`
`Those would
`
`be curvilinear.
`
`They are bounded by curves.
`
`And the lines are formed out of them.
`
`Q.
`
`Let’s go on to the next sentence.
`
`Oops,
`
`I just did something wrong.
`
`Sorry about
`
`that, Your Honor.
`
`Let’s go to the next sentence. And I
`
`have depicted this. We’re now on slide 60,
`
`RDX—ZO,
`
`same paragraph, column 14, 23 through
`
`36 and I have just highlighted the next two
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`sentences.
`
`Do you see that, sir?
`
`Yes.
`
`And I will read them into the record.
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`”The lines on each layer may be the same or
`
`different.
`
`For example,
`
`the lines may
`
`alternate between rectilinear and curvilinear."
`
`Now,
`
`I have depicted on the right what
`
`I think is what they are saying. You could
`
`have straight lines or curved lines.
`
`Isn’t
`
`that what that is saying?
`
`A.
`
`With respect to what you have drawn,
`
`I
`
`agree that what you have drawn would,
`
`in fact,
`
`be encompassed by the language you have
`
`highlighted, but it is not the only
`
`possibility.
`
`It makes very clear that the
`
`lines themselves can be formed from almost any
`
`shape, whether rectilinear or curvilinear.
`
`In fact, you have formed it out of a
`
`single line in each case, either a single
`
`straight line or a curve.
`
`Q.
`
`Well, do you see where it says, "for
`
`example,
`
`the lines may alternate between
`
`rectilinear and curvilinear? Do you see that
`
`sentence?
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`A.
`
`Q.
`
`I do.
`
`That depiction on the right,
`
`that
`
`matches that sentence, right?
`
`A.
`
`I agree that what you have drawn on
`
`the right of RDX—20.06O is an example of a set
`
`of lines where some of the lines are straight.
`
`Therefore,
`
`they are composed of rectilinear
`
`elements. And some of the lines are curved.
`
`Therefore,
`
`they are composed of a curvilinear
`
`element.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Okay.
`
`I am not saying what you have drawn
`
`here does not meet
`
`the requirements.
`
`I am not
`
`saying —— I am just saying it is not
`
`the only
`
`possibility.
`
`Q.
`
`And then the specification goes on and
`
`now I have highlighted this next slide, 61,
`
`the
`
`next two sentences, which I will read into the
`
`record from column 14,
`
`lines 23 through 36.
`
`And those say, "further still, the shape of the
`
`opposing lines may have identical shapes or
`
`they may have different shapes.
`
`For example,
`
`the driving lines may have a first shape while
`
`the sensing lines may have a second shape that
`
`is different than the first shape."
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`Do you see that?
`
`I do.
`
`So that’s talking about you might have
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`rectilinear lines on one layer and curvilinear
`
`lines on another layer, right?
`
`A.
`
`That is certainly one possibility.
`
`It
`
`is also a possibility to have one set of lines
`
`constructed out of diamonds connected end to
`
`end, and the other constructed out of ovals
`
`connected end to end.
`
`Q.
`
`If we go to slide 63,
`
`I have
`
`highlighted the next two sentences in the
`
`paragraph. And I will read them into the
`
`record.
`
`"The geometry of the lines" —— let me
`
`stop right there.
`
`That’s clearly talking about lines in
`
`a geometric sense? Yes?
`
`A.
`
`Yes, with respect to the individual
`
`lines,
`
`the word here is geometry. And here ——
`
`as used here, it is referring to the shape of
`
`the line.
`
`Q.
`
`I mean,
`
`isn’t it true this whole
`
`paragraph is talking about the geometry of the
`
`lines?
`
`A.
`
`Geometry is certainly part of what ——
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`is part of what this paragraph is talking
`
`about. What it is indicating,
`
`in fact,
`
`is
`
`exactly what we’re saying. You can use
`
`different geometries.
`
`They can be rectilinear.
`
`They can be curvilinear. And you can use those
`
`to form lines.
`
`For example, you could take a
`
`rectilinear shape, such as a diamond or a
`
`crosshatch,
`
`those are rectilinear shapes, and
`
`you can connect
`
`them end to end to form a line
`
`or you could take a curvilinear shape, such as
`
`a crescent or an oval and connect it end to end
`
`to form a line and that would be fine. And
`
`that would meet the requirements of this
`
`language.
`
`Q.
`
`I was only asking you whether it was
`
`talking about it in the geometric sense.
`
`Do
`
`you agree?
`
`A.
`
`With respect to this sentence, it is
`
`self—evident.
`
`It says the geometry.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`"The geometry of the lines
`
`(e.g.,
`
`line widths and spacing) may also be
`
`widely varied.
`
`The geometry of the lines
`
`within each layer may be identical or
`
`different."
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`851
`
`And so, for example,
`
`the illustration
`
`on slide 63 to the right would be an example
`
`where you alternate between a wide line and a
`
`thin line, right?
`
`A.
`
`If the blue is the lines,
`
`I think
`
`that’s what you are indicating here;
`
`is that
`
`correct?
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Yes.
`
`Yeah,
`
`this would certainly meet
`
`the
`
`requirements,
`
`I agree.
`
`Q.
`
`And then the last bit here says —— and
`
`this, again,
`
`is column 14,
`
`lines 23 through 36.
`
`And I am now on slide 64.
`
`The last bit of the
`
`excerpt says,
`
`"and further,
`
`the geometry of the
`
`lines for both layers may be" —— I’m sorry,
`
`I
`
`just read that.
`
`I apologize.
`
`The next sentence says,
`
`"by way of
`
`example,
`
`the line widths of the sensing lines
`
`152B to driving lines 152A may have a ratio of
`
`about 2:1."
`
`SO -—
`
`A.
`
`It does say that. And I think you did
`
`mean to read that sentence you didn’t read.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`I apologize.
`
`It is fine. But I know what you are
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`talking about.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay.
`
`So this last clause depicted on
`
`the right would show sensing lines —- I don’t
`
`know if I got the scale exactly right, sir ~—
`
`but sensing lines and driving lines have
`
`different widths. That’s what that is saying?
`
`A.
`
`In the illustration shown to the right
`
`of RDX—20.064,
`
`I agree,
`
`the ratio appears to be
`
`about 4 to I.
`
`Q.
`
`Now,
`
`in your review of the
`
`specification,
`
`there is no illustration of any
`
`stars being lines, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Within the specification?
`
`Yeah.
`
`You mean —— there is no drawing of a
`
`star connected end to end being a line, but it
`
`certainly meets the requirements of a line
`
`formed from any shape, whether rectilinear or
`
`curvilinear. Stars are rectilinear shapes
`
`because they are composed of lines. And when
`
`connected end to end,
`
`they would then,
`
`therefore,
`
`form a line along the lines of 152.
`
`Q.
`
`I suppose if you want to get
`
`metaphysical about it, any shape is composed of
`
`lines if you draw it with lines, right?
`
`Is
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`that what you are saying?
`
`A.
`
`A shape is composed of lines if you
`
`draw it of lines. There is nothing
`
`metaphysical about it. That’s fact.
`
`Q.
`
`Is it your opinion lines in the claims
`
`could be any shape whatsoever?
`
`A.
`
`No,
`
`I didn’t say that.
`
`I have never
`
`said,
`
`for example,
`
`that a single star would be
`
`a line.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`square?
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`What about a single square?
`
`A single square, a rectangle or a
`
`I said square.
`
`I guess if I were to have a sheet of
`
`plastic and the ratios were chosen such that
`
`the height of the plastic or the glass,
`
`the
`
`glass member, was exactly equal to the line
`
`width,
`
`then a square in that instance would
`
`indeed form a line.
`
`Q.
`
`What about a diamond, a single
`
`diamond?
`
`Is that a line?
`
`A.
`
`It would depend on —— a single diamond
`
`in the abstract, it would not be a line, but if
`
`you had a glass member that is exactly as tall
`
`as the line width,
`
`then, yes, it would be a
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`line.
`
`Q.
`
`Is it fair to say if you look at the
`
`illustrations in the spec and you look at the
`
`written detailed description of the spec,
`
`there
`
`is no disclosure of a diamond, a single diamond
`
`being a line or single star being a line or
`
`anything other than straight lines or curved
`
`lines?
`
`A.
`
`No,
`
`I disagree.
`
`I agree that there is
`
`no explicit disclosure that says a diamond is a
`
`line or a star is a line. However,
`
`there is
`
`explicit disclosure of the fact that the lines
`
`may be formed from any shape, whether
`
`rectilinear or curvilinear. Therefore,
`
`that
`
`disclosure is there.
`
`Q.
`
`This is what we just looked at, column
`
`14, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`That’s correct.
`
`Besides column 14,
`
`is there any other
`
`place that you would like to refer me to in the
`
`specification that says a line could be
`
`anything?
`
`A.
`
`I think that’s the only one I cited.
`
`I’d have to confirm.
`
`I believe that’s the only
`
`one I have cited.
`
`I can confirm,
`
`if you want.
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`
`Yes,
`
`the only citation I have provided is the
`
`column 14 citation that we have discussed.
`
`Q.
`
`All right.
`
`In your witness statement,
`
`you cite to CDX—2.042,
`
`the slide that you
`
`submitted together with your witness statement
`
`in which you listed intrinsic figures that you
`
`claim support your proposed construction of
`
`lines.
`
`I can put it on the screen if you want.
`
`Why don’t we do that, CDX—2.042.
`
`Do
`
`you remember this?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes.
`
`And this is from your witness —— these
`
`go with your witness statement, correct?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes,
`
`I believe so.
`
`And this is referring to claim
`
`construction of lines, right, up at the top?
`
`A.
`
`This is from the section on claim
`
`construction of lines.
`
`Q.
`
`And then you cite to figures 2, 3, 9,
`
`10, ll, 18, 19 in support of your proposed
`
`construction of lines, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`This is some of the support, yes.
`
`So if we go back to the slide deck,
`
`please, Ryan, here is figure 2 that you cite
`
`to. That just depicts crosshatched straight
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`lines, right?
`
`A.
`
`Q.
`
`Yes,
`
`I agree with that.
`
`And the lines that are illustrated in
`
`figure 2 are narrow, continuous, extensive
`
`length with constant line width, right?
`
`A.
`
`They certainly appear to be.
`
`I mean,
`
`as they are represented here,
`
`they are
`
`represented as a series of dots connected end
`
`to end, so you could argue that those are not
`
`narrow, continuous of constant line width.
`
`In
`
`fact,
`
`they are narrow,
`
`I agree,
`
`they do appear
`
`to be continuous, but they are not of constant
`
`line width but
`
`they are a series of dots
`
`connected end to end.
`
`Q.
`
`A person of ordinary skill in the art
`
`knows that’s not a series of dots,
`
`that those
`
`are the conductive lines, right?
`
`A.
`
`They are indeed conductive lines.
`
`They could be a series of dots connected end to
`
`end provided they actually touch each other.
`
`That would be allowed, based on the section of
`
`figure 14 —~ of column 14 that we read earlier.
`
`Q.
`
`Is it your contention that one
`
`embodiment of this invention is a series of
`
`dots?
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`(202) 628—4888
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`857
`
`A.
`
`A series of dots connected to each
`
`other end to end would indeed meet the
`
`requirements of lines. That would certainly be
`
`allowed.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`Okay.
`
`Provided they were connected end to
`
`end and ran from one end to the other,
`
`they
`
`would certainly meet the requirements of lines.
`
`Q.
`
`Figure 3, you cite to.
`
`I have put it
`
`on the screen. This is slide 66.
`
`In figure 3,
`
`the lines depicted are
`
`narrow, continuous extensive length with
`
`constant line width, right?
`
`A.
`
`With respect to figure 3, yes,
`
`I
`
`agree. That’s correct.
`
`I mean, if by narrow
`
`you mean they are thin compared to the overall
`
`pitch,
`
`they certainly appear to be narrow. And
`
`they are continuous. And within the error of
`
`the drafting,
`
`they certainly appear to have
`
`constant line width.
`
`Q.
`
`And you cite to figure 9, which we
`
`looked at before.
`
`I will put that on the
`
`screen in slide 67.
`
`Figure 9 also depicts the first and
`
`second conductive lines as narrow, continuous
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`extensive length with constant line width,
`
`right?
`
`A.
`
`Figure 9,
`
`they are continuous.
`
`I
`
`would argue that they are not particularly
`
`narrow.
`
`In fact, it appears that if we look at
`
`the lines on the bottom,
`
`they are relatively
`
`wide, but they are indeed continuous and they
`
`do appear to have constant line width.
`
`Q.
`
`A.
`
`These lines here are wide?
`
`Yes,
`
`they appear to be relative —— I
`
`mean,
`
`they appear to have a pitch —— a line
`
`width that is greater than 50 percent of the
`
`pitch.
`
`Q.
`
`You also cite to figures 11A and B.
`
`And I have put those up on the screen in slide
`
`68. And the associated text, column 16,
`
`lines
`
`50 through 54 on the right.
`
`It says, "figures 11A and B are
`
`partial top view diagrams of a driving line 200
`
`and a sensing layer 202,
`
`in accordance with one
`
`embodiment.
`
`In this embodiment, each of the
`
`layers 200 and 202 includes dummy features 204
`
`disposed between the driving lines and the
`
`sensing lines," driving lines 206,
`
`that’s those
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`lines right there (indicating), right?
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`(202) 628—4888
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`A.
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`Q.
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`Yes.
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`And sensing lines 208,
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`those are the
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`crosshatched lines in the bottom figure 11B,
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`right (indicating)?
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`A.
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`Q.
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`Yes,
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`that’s correct.
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`And those lines are also narrow,
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`continuous extensive length, aren’t they?
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`A.
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`They are continuous.
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`The driving
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`lines 204 appear to have a line width that is
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`less than —— on the order of 20 percent or
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`25 percent of the pitch.
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`So if we define that
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`as narrow,
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`that’s fine,
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`I will say they are
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`narrow.
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`And they are continuous. And except
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`for the stub at the end,
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`they have constant
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`line width.
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`The stub at the end appears to be
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`wider.
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`If we take lines 208,
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`those appear to
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`be at slightly more than 50 percent.
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`In fact,
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`they are more than.
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`They are about 60 percent
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`of the pitch in terms of their line width.
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`So
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`I don’t know that you could call them narrow.
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`They are certainly continuous. And
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`they are of constant line width, except for the
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`hemispherical cap on the top.
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`(202) 628—4888
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`860
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`Q.
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`Okay.
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`So all of the illustrations
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`that you point to,
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`the figures that you point
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`to from the specification,
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`they show straight
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`lines, don’t they? They don’t show stars or
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`diamonds or boxes?
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`A.
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`All of the figures that I point to do
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`indeed not show stars or diamonds.
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`I mean,
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`I
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`would argue that they are —— at least if we
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`could go back to figure 9,
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`I would argue that
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`each of those is individually a box.
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`So they
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`certainly are a box.
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`And,
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`indeed,
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`I agree,
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`if we look at
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`the vector of them,
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`they are all shown as
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`straight.
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`They are not shown as having a
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`curvature across their entire extent.
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`Q.
`
`Now,
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`I would like to move on to
`
`another thing that you addressed in your
`
`witness statement, which is to respond to
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`Motorola’s expert, Dr. Wolfe.
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`And you remember Dr. Wolfe depicted a
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`circle, a star -— I am not sure what this thing
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`is?
`
`A.
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`It looks like a ghost or somewhat of a
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`representation of Texas.
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`Q.
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`Okay. And he says a circle is not a
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`Heritage Reporting Corporation
`(202) 628-4888
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`line, a star is not a line, and this ghost
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`figure,
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`that’s not a line. You disagree with
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`that, right?
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`A.
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`I think what —— my disagreement was
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`with his characterization of the fact that I
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`said each of those individually would be a
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`line. And that’s not what I had said.
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`What I said is the lines could be
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`formed from almost any shape, whether
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`rectilinear or curvilinear. And the examples
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`on the right on RDX—20.069 show examples of
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`things that are certainly lines.
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`Q.
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`And this is what you put in response,
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`I have excerpted out, but this is what you have
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`put in response in your witness statement.
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`And,
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`look,
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`if you take a star and you add a
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`bunch of them in a row,
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`that that’s a line?
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`A.
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`Q.
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`Correct.
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`If you take this ghost figure and you
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`put 20 of them in a row,
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`that that's a line?
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`That’s what you are saying, right?
`
`A.
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`Q.
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`That’s correct.
`
`Okay.
`
`Now,
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`I think you said that you
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`agree that line in the patent is not a queue,
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`but, sir, aren’t you using the wrong definition
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`(202) 628—4888
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`of line here, an arrangement or placement of
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`persons or objects of one kind in an orderly
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`series,
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`like a line of trees or waiting in
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`line? That’s not the definition the patent is
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`using?
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`A.
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`So I agree that a line is not an
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`arrangement of trees or a placement of persons.
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`However,
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`that is certainly a line.
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`The fact
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`that I am connecting them end to end doesn’t
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`make it a queue. Or the fact that they
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`overlap,
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`in that connecting them end to end, if
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`they were replaced by people, would be a queue,
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`but this is not a queue. This is not people
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`end to end. This is shapes that are put
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`together to form a line.
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`The line can be
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`composed of almost any shape, whether
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`rectilinear or curvilinear. That’s the
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`language in the patent.
`
`Q.
`
`So in your opinion, you are not using
`
`these ghosts all lined up here as a queue?
`
`A
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`line of ghosts?
`
`A.
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`If you want to say that that’s a
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`queue, that's fine, but more importantly with
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`respect to the patent,
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`this is a line composed
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`of any shape with them connected —— composed of
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`(202) 628~4888
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`any shape, whether rectilinear or curvilinear.
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`And these appear to be predominantly
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`curvilinear.
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`Q.
`
`Let's move on to,
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`I am almost done
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`with this subject and I have one more thing I
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`want to show you.
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`What I have put on the screen at
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`RDX—ZO, slide 071 is figure 2 from RX—1836 that
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`you were shown at your deposition.
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`Do you
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`remember that?
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`A.
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`Q.
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`I don’t, but I’m sure we can proceed.
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`I will represent that this was,
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`I
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`think it was Exhibit
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