Case 2:19-cv-06301-AB-KS Document 113-2 Filed 11/20/20 Page 1 of 6 Page ID #:3566
`Case 2:19-cv-06301-AB-KS Document 113-2 Filed 11/20/20 Page 1 of 6 Page ID #:3566
`
`In the Matter Of:
`
`GARMIN INTERNA TIONAL
`
`JAY DEE KRULL
`
`PHILIPS NORTH AMERICA LLC VS
`
`September I 7, 2020
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`

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`· · A.· ·Yes.
`· · Q.· ·And it states:
`· · · · · · ·"Garmin's organizational structure
`· · · · ·for the following areas:· engineering,
`· · · · ·design and research and development,
`· · · · ·manufacture, fabrication and assembly,
`· · · · ·and marketing sales and promotion."
`· · · · ·Do you see that?
`· · A.· ·I see it.
`· · Q.· ·Are you prepared to testify concerning
`Topic 12?
`· · A.· ·Yes.
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· If you could go to the next page,
`page 10.
`· · A.· ·I'm there.
`· · Q.· ·Great.· And you see Topic 24?
`· · A.· ·Yes.
`· · Q.· ·It states:
`· · · · · · ·"Garmin's implementation of GPS
`· · · · ·functionality in each of the accused
`· · · · ·products."
`· · · · ·Correct?
`· · A.· ·Yes.
`· · Q.· ·Are you prepared to testify concerning
`Topic 24?
`
`· · Q.· ·Did you review any documents concerning
`these topics?
`· · A.· ·No.
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· Did you speak with anyone to prepare
`for your deposition other than counsel?
`· · A.· ·No.
`· · Q.· ·And how much time did you spend to prepare
`for today's deposition?
`· · A.· ·I didn't time it, but over an hour.
`· · Q.· ·Thank you.· I would like to discuss your
`education and employment background right now.
`· · · · ·So starting with school, where did you
`attend college?
`· · A.· ·Yes.· I attended Pittsburg State University
`in southeast Kansas.· I graduated in 1986 with a
`bachelor's degree in computer science and a minor in
`math.
`· · Q.· ·And did you do any studies after you
`received your bachelor's?
`· · A.· ·Miscellaneous continuing education but
`nothing that was a degree-seeking effort.
`· · Q.· ·What was your first job out of college?
`· · A.· ·I worked as a computer programmer for
`Cerner Corporation.
`· · Q.· ·And I'm sorry.· I don't have my realtime
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`· · A.· ·Yes.
`· · Q.· ·And then the next topic, 25.· Do you see
`that?
`· · A.· ·I see it.
`· · Q.· ·It states:
`· · · · · · ·"For each of the accused products
`· · · · ·that include GPS functionality, the
`· · · · ·operation of such functionality,
`· · · · ·including any calculated outputs derived
`· · · · ·from GPS waypoints as well as the methods
`· · · · ·by which the accused products (including
`· · · · ·any Garmin app or server) calculate those
`· · · · ·outputs."
`· · · · ·Is that correct?
`· · A.· ·That's what it says, yes.
`· · Q.· ·Are you prepared to testify concerning
`Topic 25?
`· · A.· ·Yes.
`· · Q.· ·So, without revealing any privileged
`communication between you and your counsel, what did
`you do to prepare to testify concerning Topics 12,
`24, and 25?
`· · A.· ·I've worked at Garmin for almost 31 years,
`and I met with my attorneys to prepare for these
`topics.
`
`feed.
`· · · · ·So did you say you've been at Garmin for
`31 years?
`· · A.· ·Almost.· I started October 25th, 1989.
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· What was your first position at
`Garmin?
`· · A.· ·A software engineer.
`· · Q.· ·And if you could just -- you don't have to
`go into excruciating detail, but if you could just
`give me your career path at Garmin, that would be
`great.
`· · A.· ·All right.· I started as a software
`engineer, evolved to a project lead, became a team
`leader and was assigned individuals to report
`software -- other software engineers to report to
`me.· Eventually moved to be a manager where I led
`multiple team leaders.
`· · · · ·Then I moved up to be a director where I
`led other managers who led team leaders who led
`software engineers.
`· · · · ·Then I moved sideways to be the director of
`software excellence, is my current title, where I'm
`responsible for consumer engineering, software
`development processes, tools, techniques, those
`types of things.
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`

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`· · · · ·My job description includes a bullet that's
`labeled "other duties as assigned."· And over the
`last decade I've done lots of other duties beyond
`just the software engineering mainly because of my
`history and experience at Garmin, so forth.
`· · Q.· ·So software excellence.· That's your --
`· · A.· ·That is my current title, the director of
`software for consumer engineering.
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· And how long have you held this
`position?
`· · A.· ·On the order of ten years.· I don't
`remember the exact transition date.
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· So that's a really wide variety --
`trajectory you've had at Garmin.· So you had
`mentioned before that you had -- you've worked in
`GPS.· And I think we should probably just start with
`what does GPS stand for?
`· · A.· ·The global positioning system.
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· And how does it work?
`· · A.· ·All right.· In layman's terms, there is a
`constellation of satellites.· There needs to be a
`minimum of 21 to be considered a complete
`constellation.· Generally, there are 24 or more that
`are considered to be hot spares.· They're in orbit
`and functioning.· In the beginning of Garmin, there
`
`traveling and the speed.· Those two things combined,
`there's a velocity vector, very important for GPS,
`and one of the things that makes GPS far superior to
`any of the previous navigation systems.
`· · · · ·And then time.· GPS provides very accurate
`time source.
`· · · · ·There are ground stations that monitor the
`GPS system.· That's all done by the U.S. military.
`The ground stations determine, okay, where the
`satellites are and continually keep them up to date
`with correction information.
`· · · · ·There are also augmentation systems in
`place to model atmospheric interference and be able
`to provide that to local devices to enhance the
`accuracy of the base GPS capability.
`· · Q.· ·Thank you.
`· · A.· ·You're welcome.
`· · Q.· ·So, with that explanation of GPS, let's get
`more granular.· And if you would describe how Garmin
`has used GPS -- the GPS functionality in its
`products.· And if it would be helpful to talk about
`a specific product, the fenix 3 or am I saying the
`brand correctly?· Is it fenix?
`· · A.· ·fenix is one of our smart watch families.
`· · Q.· ·And does it have a GPS sensor?
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`were less than 21 satellites available.
`· · · · ·So the system was not operational yet when
`we first began.· So that was very important, a huge
`milestone for the U.S. government and military who
`sponsored the GPS system.· It is free to use
`worldwide.
`· · · · ·The word "global" really refers to the fact
`that you can use it anywhere in the world 24/7, from
`pole to pole, anywhere around the equator.
`· · · · ·These satellites are moving at a very high
`rate.· We can leverage that to improve the accuracy
`of how the GPS works.· The basic functionality of
`GPS is position, velocity, and time.
`· · · · ·So a user/receiver, right, a device,
`electronic device, that a user possesses and carries
`with them and can reference is receiving satellites
`and data from -- measurements, I should say,
`distance to the satellite measurements plus data
`that defines where the satellites are in orbit, what
`their orbital path is.· It's fairly complex.
`· · · · ·But, in the end, what the receiver provides
`is where you are in terms of latitude, longitude,
`and altitude, or elevation if you're on the ground,
`right, how far above mean sea level that you are.
`And then velocity would be the direction you're
`
`· · A.· ·Yes.
`· · Q.· ·And how does the GPS sensor in the fenix 3
`work?· What does it do?
`· · A.· ·It does all of those things that we just
`talked about.· So the sensor -- the GPS sensor
`itself provides that position, velocity, and time;
`right?· So it is a very accurate watch for that
`reason.· But it can also monitor a user's movement
`among many more things that are not GPS-related.
`· · Q.· ·So does the fenix 3 then calculate outputs
`from the GPS sensor?· Is that ...
`· · A.· ·It provides information based on the GPS
`sensor.
`· · Q.· ·What type of information?
`· · A.· ·Well, again, position, velocity, and time.
`So, for instance, it can record a track log of where
`you traveled.
`· · · · ·As a fitness device, if you want to go out
`and exercise for a particular time or a particular
`distance, it will time that for you.· It will keep
`track of how far you've traveled.· You don't have to
`go run around a, you know, measured track in
`circles.· You can take off and go anywhere, any
`distance, and it will keep track of, you know, how
`far you've gone.
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`

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`Case 2:19-cv-06301-AB-KS Document 113-2 Filed 11/20/20 Page 4 of 6 Page ID #:3569
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`· · · · ·You can monitor that and decide, okay, I'm
`halfway the distance; I want to turn around and go
`home.· You don't even have to go the same path, but
`it would help you if you wanted to.· Especially if
`you were in an unfamiliar area and you just wanted
`to retrace your steps, since it knows how you got
`there, it can guide you back.
`· · · · ·So it provides navigation based on the --
`let's refer to it as a breadcrumb trail like Hansel
`and Gretel.· We refer to that as a track log, but
`it's very smart about how it determines when to
`record points.· And then you can configure that to
`be more or less so that it can guide you back.
`· · · · ·That data can then be transferred through
`your mobile phone to the cloud at Garmin and store
`all your activities.· You can come back later,
`review them.· You can superimpose that track log on
`a map.· You can review your performance and other
`metrics, such as heart rate, while you're running.
`· · Q.· ·So what you just described in general, is
`that what is meant by GPS speed and distance in some
`of the materials that come with your products,
`because it's --
`· · A.· ·So speed and distance would be determined
`by the GPS information.
`
`from the satellites, right, you can take those,
`triangulate, do the math, come up with, okay, here's
`where we're at in the four coordinates -- latitude,
`longitude, elevation, and time -- right?· All four
`are important.
`· · · · ·And then, if you're moving, that
`calculation for position is not as accurate as
`velocity.
`· · · · ·So -- let me pause and ask my attorney.
`· · · · ·Do we have IP protection for this?· We're
`getting into some stuff that's Garmin proprietary.
`· · · · ·MS. LAMKIN:· We can mark the transcript
`confidential, Mr. Krull.
`· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Okay.· Good.
`· · · · ·MS. LAMKIN:· So note to the stenographer to
`please mark confidential going forward.
`· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Now, some of this is just
`general GPS.· That's what makes GPS better than
`other navigation systems and so forth.· But I don't
`want to have to stop and point out each piece.· All
`right?
`· · · · ·So, for instance, in the early days at
`Garmin, one of the things that really surprised me,
`right, as us geeky engineers are sitting around the
`lunch table and talking about our various areas of
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`· · Q.· ·And this is pulling the information from
`the GPS satellites to identify where you were and
`when you were there and then doing the calculations
`how long it took you to the next location?
`· · A.· ·Almost.· Don't forget the -- the velocity,
`the speed, is very important.· It's very complicated
`in terms of when you're moving that slow, especially
`when you're walking or running.· The difference in
`speed is tricky to measure.
`· · · · ·Yes, GPS provides a very accurate value,
`but then how we apply that and display that to the
`user is very important, especially if you have that
`strapped to your wrist.· You're talking about the
`fenix.· It's a watch.
`· · · · ·As you swing your arm, if you can
`visualize, as the arm is coming forward, it's going
`faster than the rest of your body.· As your arm is
`going backwards, it is going slower than the rest of
`your body.· And it takes a bit of math and tuning to
`get that right.
`· · Q.· ·So can you describe in more detail the
`method that Garmin is using to calculate these
`outputs that it's gathering through the GPS sensor?
`· · A.· ·Sure.
`· · · · ·The next level of -- any one measurement
`
`what we're working on, the fact that GPS velocity --
`because it's not based on delta position.· All
`right?
`· · · · ·The old systems, what we had to do was you
`calculated a fix.· You said, okay, we were here at
`this point in time.· And then some time period
`later -- the faster the better, of course -- but
`sometimes it was tens of seconds.· And you got a new
`answer.· Now we are here; right?· So how much time
`elapsed and how far did we travel?
`· · · · ·So that determines your speed.· So you can
`display that.· It also determined the direction
`you're traveling; right?· So the two together are
`your velocity vector.
`· · · · ·I remember doing a test at a previous
`employer.· We were in an airplane, and we were
`testing a LORAN system.· And I remember starting the
`clock when we initiated a turn.· So now we're
`banking, we're turning the airplane, and we're --
`you know, time's counting.· And the system was able
`to determine we were turning in 20 seconds.· And we
`were excited.· Wow.· It can do that.
`· · · · ·With GPS and Garmin's very first
`implementation 30 years ago, we could do it in a
`second.· You could be at walking speed, not flying
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`

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`Case 2:19-cv-06301-AB-KS Document 113-2 Filed 11/20/20 Page 5 of 6 Page ID #:3570
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`speed, but walking speed, turn 90 degrees, and on
`the next update the device knew that you had turned
`and now how fast you're going that way.· That's how
`huge of an advantage the GPS had over previous
`systems.
`· · · · ·Now, part of that is we were not doing that
`traditional distance-over-time calculation.· In
`fact, much the opposite.· The geeky piece here that
`really excited me back in the day was that we're
`calculating speed based off of the carrier phase of
`the signal coming from satellites.
`· · · · ·Now, again, remember earlier I said the
`satellites are moving much faster than we are?· In
`fact, there's a component of Einstein's theory of
`relativity that comes into the fact that the timing
`systems on the satellites get out of sync with Earth
`here because they're going faster than we are,
`significantly faster.
`· · · · ·So if you picture sitting at a train
`crossing, right, and a train is coming, and you can
`hear it come; right?· It's making a noise.· And then
`it goes by you, and then it's going away from you.
`Right?· When it was coming towards you, the sound
`waves are compressed because each new sound wave, it
`was closer to you when it generated it; so those are
`
`vector.· Are you going up?· Are you going north,
`south, east, west, or some combination in between?
`And that determines, then, where you're at.
`· · · · ·Now, that is very accurate.· The math that
`you use to do the triangulation to determine, okay,
`this is the position, the coordinates of where I'm
`at on -- or above Earth, right, is dependent on the
`spacing of the satellites; right?· A triangle would
`be a perfect solution in two dimensions, a pyramid
`in three.
`· · · · ·So if you were in the middle of the
`pyramid, you'd be able to determine your solution to
`what we would calculate in scale normalized as 1.0
`dilution of precision.
`· · · · ·As you get further away from the center of
`that pyramid, then you start to lose, right, and
`your number gets higher.· So the fact of confidence
`and accuracy would drop; right?· Your confidence
`wouldn't be 1.0; it would be maybe 1.5 or 2.· And it
`comes at some point when the satellites are all in
`one quadrant of the sky.· So you're backed up
`against the building and you can't see the others.
`· · · · ·Keep in mind that at all times, when you're
`standing on the Earth, well, the Earth is this big
`honking rock that blocks the signal from the
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`closer together, which makes a higher frequency
`sound, what we perceive; right?
`· · · · ·As it goes by, then that sound drops in
`frequency because now the train is generating sound
`each time further away from us for that sound wave
`is now wider, not as narrow as it had been.· So you
`hear this Doppler effect of (indicating), and off it
`goes.
`· · · · ·And I'm sorry, Stenographer, you can't type
`that sound.
`· · · · ·But, any way, it's a sound that starts
`higher in frequency and drops as it goes by in front
`of you to a slower frequency.· All right.
`· · · · ·We leverage that component, the fact that
`some of these satellites are going away from us and
`some are coming towards us to determine -- and it's
`fancy math, and I have a minor in math.· I would
`have to review the code and study it for days to
`come back and tell you, okay, exactly how that
`works.
`· · · · ·But, conceptually, that's what we're
`leveraging.· It's that Doppler effect and the fact
`that they're moving towards or away.· And once you
`figure out, you know, where you're at, now you can
`use that to fine tune and come up with a velocity
`
`satellites on the other side of the Earth.· So we
`only get to see things beside us and above us; we
`never get to see things below us in terms of signal.
`· · · · ·So the vertical component of GPS is even
`less accurate than the horizontal component.· But if
`you have satellite spaced around you -- and the more
`the merrier; right? -- you can actually get a
`dilution of precision that's less than 1 that says,
`okay, we're overdetermining the solution and coming
`up with something even more accurate than a standard
`geometric triangle would provide.
`· · · · ·Now, all that being said, no matter how
`accurate that is, the velocity vector is better.· So
`the technique that was used to improve the
`positioning is that you leverage the velocity and
`you heavily filter the position computation, right,
`compared to where it was last.
`· · · · ·But you don't filter it to where it was
`last.· You propagate it by the velocity vector.· And
`you say, okay, if I was there and my velocity is
`this and this amount of time has passed, now I
`should be here.
`· · · · ·So you actually filter the new math with
`the predicted new location with velocity, and now
`then you can maintain a much higher precision -- or
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`I shouldn't say precision; precision is just a
`number of decimal points -- a much higher accuracy
`of that new location or that location as it evolves.
`· · · · ·So it's almost like, okay, I was sitting in
`one place and not moving, and I just keep averaging
`more and more samples, right, together.· And as the
`noise of the system, right, each computation is
`going to move around to some level, but you'd come
`back to say, well, if I add all those together and
`average it out, right, well, I can tell I'm probably
`somewhere in the middle of all the noise.· Right?
`· · · · ·And if you plot that, you can visually look
`and go, okay, well, yeah, there's the center of the
`pattern.· And there might even be a few outliers
`that zip out if you're just looking at that track
`log that gets generated; right?· Well, obviously, I
`was here most likely.
`· · · · ·Well, we're doing that in real time even
`when you're moving because the velocity vector is so
`accurate.
`· · · · ·But that accuracy can also get in the way
`as you're trying to compute the real-time velocity
`of a runner with their arms swinging because we can
`see it speed up and slow down.· And so we have to
`accommodate that to say, okay, what speed is the
`
`that and present it to the user in a useful way that
`just feels right?
`· · · · ·I'm running.· I start jogging.· I look at
`my watch.· It shows me a smaller number.· When it
`works, you don't even think about the fact that,
`wow, somebody spent a lot of time to make it do that
`versus you'd be running and you're looking and it's
`wow, I didn't think I was going that fast; oh, now
`I'm going slower; oh, no, I'm going fast -- no, it's
`just changing.· Right?
`· · · · ·That's very -- it breaks your confidence
`the product really works.· Right?· But, really,
`that's what's happening.· We just engineer it such
`that it appears to work better.
`· · · · ·BY MS. MORAN:
`· · Q.· ·Mr. Krull, thank you.
`· · A.· ·You're welcome.
`· · Q.· ·I probably needed some coffee.
`· · A.· ·I would be happy to warm mine up as well if
`we could take a break.
`· · · · ·MS. MORAN:· That would be fine.· Go warm up
`your coffee, and we will come back on the record in
`ten minutes.· Is that good?
`· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· That will be fine for me.
`· · · · ·THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· Off record at 9:42.
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`runner really going at?· And if the runner speeds
`up, we want to be able to communicate that to the
`runner that they truly sped up, not just they
`started swinging their arm harder and so forth.
`· · · · ·So, again, there's a lot of complicated
`math that then has to be tuned for the operating
`environment.
`· · · · ·So running, cycling, driving a car on
`public streets, driving a car on a racetrack,
`driving a car on a drag strip, using a device in a
`fighter aircraft -- all of these different
`environments, right, require some level of tuning
`based on the anticipation, the expectation of, you
`know, what are the limits of acceleration?
`· · · · ·And then you can leverage that expectation
`of acceleration and put some bounds around and then
`make some assumptions such that you can come up with
`a better solution for one of those environments.
`That's not going to say it's going to work bad in a
`different environment, but it won't work as well.
`· · · · ·And so, again, that's part of Garmin's
`secret sauce is the time and effort and research and
`development that we have spent tuning how to use the
`output from the GPS beyond just the base solution or
`answer that it provides, but then how do we massage
`
`· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Thank you.
`· · · · ·(Recess taken from 9:43 to 10:01.)
`· · · · ·THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· We're back on the
`record.· The time is 10:00 a.m.
`· · · · ·BY MS. MORAN:
`· · Q.· ·So, Mr. Krull, before the break you gave a
`description of the implementation of the GPS
`functionality into Garmin's wearable devices that
`are the accused products.· And just to make sure I
`understand your testimony, Garmin has GPS capability
`in a variety of products.
`· · · · ·For the personal wearable, you fine-tune
`the math so that the speed a person is going at is
`reflected in the calculations, which would be
`different from how a product in an automobile, like
`you gave an example of a race car.
`· · · · ·So is that what you mean by the fine-tuning
`of the GPS functionality based on the expected use
`of the product?
`· · A.· ·Yes.
`· · Q.· ·Okay.· Thank you.
`· · · · ·So I would like to spend a little bit of
`time talking about Garmin's organization, and I
`think it would just be helpful to start with for --
`so Garmin International, if I understood this
`
`