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`1 UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`23
`
` CASE IPR2021-00145
` U.S. PATENT NO.
` 8,812,993
`
` SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO. )
`4 LTD., SAMSUNG
` )
` ELECTRONICS AMERICA,
` )
`5 INC., AND APPLE, INC.,
` )
` )
`6
` Petitioners
` )
` )
`7 VS.
` )
` )
`8 NEONODE SMARTPHONE LLC, )
` )
`9
` Patent Owner
` )
`10
`11
`******************************************************
` REMOTE ORAL DEPOSITION OF
`12
` DR. CRAIG ROSENBERG
`13
` NOVEMBER 17, 2021
`14
`15 ******************************************************
`16
` REMOTE ORAL DEPOSITION of DR. CRAIG ROSENBERG,
`17 produced as a witness at the instance of the
`Petitioners, and duly sworn, was taken in the
`18 above-styled and numbered cause on November 17, 2021,
`from 11:03 a.m. to 4:06 p.m., before Heather L. Garza,
`19 CSR, RPR, in and for the State of Texas, recorded by
`machine shorthand, at the offices of HEATHER L. GARZA,
`20 CSR, RPR, The Woodlands, Texas, pursuant to the
`Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and the provisions
`21 stated on the record or attached hereto; that the
`deposition shall be read and signed.
`22
`23
`24
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`EXHIBIT 1056
`Samsung et al. v. Neonode
`IPR2021-00144
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`1 R E M O T E A P P E A R A N C E S
`
`2 3
`
`FOR THE PETITIONERS:
`4 Ms. Tiffany Miller
` DLA PIPER (US) LLP
`5 401 B Street, Suite 1700
` San Diego, California 92101
`6 (619) 699-2700
` tiffany.miller@us.dlapiper.com
`7
` -and-
`8
` Mr. David L. Holt
`9 FISH & RICHARDSON, P.C.
` 1000 Maine Avenue SW
`10 Washington, D.C. 20024
` (202) 626-7783
`11 david.holt@fr.com
`12
`
`FOR THE PATENT OWNER:
`13
` Mr. Philip Graves
`14 HAGENS BERMAN SOBOL SHAPIRO, LLP
` 301 North Lake Avenue, Suite 920
`15 Pasadena, California 91101
` (213) 330-7150
`16 philipg@hbsslaw.com
`17
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`1 EXAMINATION INDEX
`2 WITNESS: DR. CRAIG ROSENBERG
`3 EXAMINATION PAGE
` BY MS. MILLER 4
`
`4 5
`
` SIGNATURE REQUESTED 128
`
` REPORTER'S CERTIFICATION 129
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`6 7
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`8 9
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` EXHIBIT INDEX
`10
` PAGE
`11 EXHIBIT NO.1001 4
` United States Patent No. 8,812,993 dated
`12 August 19, 2014
`13 EXHIBIT NO.1003 4
` File History of '993 Patent
`14
` EXHIBIT NO.1005 4
`15 Certified Translation of Published
` Patent Application No. 2002-55750 dated
`16 August 10, 2000
`17 EXHIBIT NO.1006 4
` Improving Selection Performance on
`18 Pen-Based Systems: A Study of Pen-Based
` Interaction for Selection Tasks by
`19 Xiangshi Ren and Shinji Moriya
`20 EXHIBIT NO.1007 4
` United States Patent No. 5,422,656 dated
`21 June 6, 1995
`22 EXHIBIT NO.1029 4
` United States Patent No. 5,821,930 dated
`23 October 13, 1998
`24 EXHIBIT NO.2013 4
` Declaration of Craig Rosenberg, Ph.D.
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`1 (Exhibit Nos. 1001, 1003, 1005, 1006,
`2 1007, 1029 and 2013 were previously marked.)
`3 DR. CRAIG ROSENBERG,
`4 having been first duly sworn, testified as follows:
`5 E X A M I N A T I O N
`6 BY MS. MILLER:
`7 Q. Good morning, Dr. Rosenberg.
`8 A. Good morning.
`9 Q. Have you been deposed before?
`10 A. I have, yes.
`11 Q. How many times?
`12 A. I believe 36.
`13 Q. 36. And were those all patent-related cases?
`14 A. No. But the majority were.
`15 Q. When was the last time you were deposed?
`16 A. I'd say about two months ago roughly, two to
`17 three months ago.
`18 Q. What did you do to prepare for today's
`19 deposition?
`20 A. I read my report, my declarations. I
`21 reviewed the '993 patent. I reviewed some of the
`22 prior art that was asserted in this case. I spoke
`23 with Phil Graves and Mark Carlson.
`24 Q. Did you speak with anyone else to prepare for
`25 your deposition besides Phil and Mark?
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`1 A. I did not.
`2 Q. (BY MS. MILLER) So we'll start with Exhibit
`3 2013, which is your declaration that was submitted in
`4 this IPR proceeding.
`5 A. Okay.
`6 Q. Do you have that in front of you?
`7 A. I do, yes.
`8 Q. Is this the declaration you submitted in IPR
`9 2021-00145?
`10 A. 2021-00145. That's correct.
`11 Q. And are these still your opinions?
`12 A. Yes. They are.
`13 Q. Do you have any corrections to your opinions
`14 that are in this declaration?
`15 A. No corrections to my opinions. I think in
`16 going through and reviewing it, I found few minor
`17 typos, but -- but no substantive changes at all.
`18 Q. Are you aware that there's a district court
`19 case between Samsung and Neonode and Apple and
`20 Neonode?
`21 A. Yes. I'm aware.
`22 Q. Did you review any documents from that
`23 district court proceeding?
`24 A. I certainly didn't in preparing for this
`25 deposition. I really can't recall if I had reviewed
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`1 documents in the past, you know, for the lifetime of
`2 me working on this case. But if I had, it hasn't been
`3 a long time.
`4 Q. Did you review any dictionary definitions in
`5 preparing your opinions on this -- for this IPR?
`6 A. I don't believe so. I don't -- I don't
`7 believe that I've quoted any dictionary definitions in
`8 my declaration. Perhaps when writing it, I may have
`9 referred to -- to them, but -- but I really don't
`10 recall one way or the other.
`11 Q. Okay. I'd like to -- to walk through a
`12 couple things in the background just for your
`13 background qualifications section in the -- in the
`14 declaration.
`15 A. Okay.
`16 Q. Actually, do you have -- do you have any
`17 paper copies of documents in front of you?
`18 A. I do. I have a clean version of the '993
`19 patent and a clean version of my declaration,
`20 unmarked, no annotations.
`21 Q. Okay. If you could go to Paragraph 12 in
`22 your declaration, which is on Page 5.
`23 A. Okay. I'm there.
`24 Q. Okay. Paragraph 12, you refer to a two-way
`25 pager produced by AT&T. Do you see that?
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`1 A. Yes. I see that.
`2 Q. Okay. Did that device have a touchscreen?
`3 A. It did not.
`4 Q. What size was that device?
`5 A. Oh, you know, I guess the court reporter
`6 can't -- if I hold up my hands, but I would say
`7 roughly 5 to 6 inches in length, maybe 2 inches in
`8 height, and a half-inch on thickness would be the
`9 approximate dimensions.
`10 Q. Okay. Let's go on to the next paragraph,
`11 Paragraph 13.
`12 A. All right.
`13 Q. And that paragraph talks about -- let's see
`14 -- some work for a company called Eyematic Interfaces?
`15 A. Yes.
`16 Q. Did you work for Eyematic Interfaces while
`17 developing the touchscreen?
`18 A. No. No. The Eyematic Interfaces device did
`19 not have a touchscreen.
`20 Q. Okay. Let's go on to Paragraph 14, which is
`21 on the next page, and that refers to work for a
`22 company called Ahaza. Do you see that?
`23 A. I do, yes.
`24 Q. Did you work with Ahaza while developing the
`25 touchscreen interface?
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`1 A. No. Ahaza was -- their device also did not
`2 have a touchscreen. As you see, it was network
`3 routing technology. They typically used Web
`4 interfaces and physical interface on the front of the
`5 device, as well.
`6 Q. Moving to the next paragraph, Paragraph 15,
`7 that refers to an ObjectSpeed device; is that right?
`8 A. That's correct.
`9 Q. Did the ObjectSpeed device have a touchscreen
`10 interface?
`11 A. Yes, it did.
`12 Q. And you describe that as a portable handheld
`13 device; is that right?
`14 A. Yes. Yes. It basically brought the
`15 functionality that we -- we know and love of our
`16 cellphones to a portable office cordless phone, if you
`17 will. So meant for use in offices and homes but
`18 having the smart features of the cellphone.
`19 Q. That touchscreen interface on the ObjectSpeed
`20 device, did that have tap activatable targets?
`21 A. I don't recall actually if it was tap or
`22 touch or a combination, as you see in many interfaces.
`23 Sometimes you see interfaces that have combinations.
`24 So I don't recall. That device never made it all the
`25 way to -- to market.
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`1 Q. And what was your role in developing the
`2 device?
`3 A. As the lead user interface designer.
`4 Q. So were you making decisions on whether to
`5 use tap or touch or some other activation gesture?
`6 A. I certainly would -- would be the one to make
`7 that call, but I don't recall -- mostly, I was
`8 designing the flow from all of the different screens,
`9 the requirements, the functionality, the graphical
`10 design for the look of each screen, what elements were
`11 on the screen, how you transition from one screen to
`12 the next, the various -- all the flowcharts that
`13 describe the user interaction and user experience. As
`14 far as whether the selection of a specific icon or
`15 element on the screen was activated via tap or touch
`16 may not have gotten down to that level of design.
`17 That obviously was a design choice, but there were, I
`18 guess, larger decisions to be made first before you --
`19 you go down to -- to that level of granularity in the
`20 design.
`21 Q. Let's look at Paragraph 16, which references
`22 WhereWuz, W-H-E-R-E-W-U-Z.
`23 A. Yes.
`24 Q. And what was that? Was that a device?
`25 A. It was software. No, it wasn't a device. It
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`1 ran on Android and iOS phones. I conceived WhereWuz
`2 in 2010, and it was born out of the desire to be able
`3 to know where you've been. If I asked you, where were
`4 you February 17th, 2011, you know, at 4:40 in the
`5 afternoon, most people would not know. They'd have to
`6 do some research on that. So the WhereWuz device
`7 essentially is a personal tracker to track yourself,
`8 keep track of where you've been, and so I wrote the
`9 software and released it on Android Play Store and the
`10 iTunes App Store to allow for tracking of where you've
`11 been. So to anticipate your question, yes, it was
`12 meant to be interacted with touch screens because it
`13 was meant to be used on Android and iOS devices.
`14 Q. And did that have tap-activatable targets?
`15 A. It likely did. It likely did. I did not
`16 change the default behavior of the UI element
`17 selection so when I was using the standard widgets for
`18 iOS or Android, I didn't go in and override the
`19 default behavior for a button or a dropdown list or
`20 maximize so -- so oftentimes, you do find -- it's very
`21 common to find tap on that. It depends on the
`22 element. Oftentimes, buttons are -- are touch, but --
`23 and drop down lists will drop down with a touch, but
`24 selection of an item within it will be tap,
`25 essentially finger up. Minimize, maximize, close,
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`1 those are typically tap. So oftentimes, you get --
`2 depending on the user interface library that you're
`3 using, whatever the default behavior is, and typically
`4 it's a mix of tap and touch.
`5 Q. For the Android platform, when you were
`6 working on the WhereWuz software, was the default
`7 behavior tap?
`8 A. What I'm describing is that different types
`9 of UI elements have different defaults, but these are
`10 typically touch. The drop down of a dropdown is
`11 typically touch. The selection of an item within a
`12 dropdown is typically tap. So you -- it's not proper
`13 to say was everything in the UI tap or was everything
`14 touch. It's a mixture is what I'm trying to describe.
`15 Q. Was the default behavior for the Android
`16 platform when you were developing this WhereWuz
`17 software for selection of an item, was that a tap?
`18 A. Selection of an item? I have to think of how
`19 it worked. Typically you just sort of start the
`20 process, and you -- you start the process, so it's
`21 always collecting time stamp position data, storing it
`22 in a local database on the phone, and then really the
`23 use of the device has to do with querying where you
`24 were. Like I said, you can put in a date and a time.
`25 So those -- I think that was a spinner, so a user
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`1 interface element where you sort of slide up or down
`2 and you pick the year and you pick the month and you
`3 pick the day and you pick the hour and you pick the
`4 minute. So my recollection is those spinners worked
`5 with finger up so it was more like a drag operation
`6 really. You're dragging until you have the proper
`7 element in the highlighted area, and then on finger
`8 up, it sets that, and then once you have all of the --
`9 the year, the month, the day, the hour, and the minute
`10 selected, there was a button where you can essentially
`11 query the database. So it will return the list -- it
`12 -- it will return a map of where you were at that time
`13 and show you on the map, and that button was, I
`14 believe, touch. So, again, you have a combination of
`15 mouse up for activation and mouse down. I'm using
`16 mouse, but really it's finger. Yeah, combination of
`17 -- depending on the UI element, you get a combination
`18 of interaction styles.
`19 Q. And that was -- you were developing that in
`20 2010; is that right?
`21 A. Yes. That was 2010.
`22 Q. Returning to your declaration at Paragraph
`23 17, which spans Pages 6 and 7, you refer to work for a
`24 company called Healium. Do you see that?
`25 A. I do, yes.
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`1 Q. Did your work for Healium involve developing
`2 a touchscreen interface?
`3 A. Yes. That had interfaces for tablets,
`4 phones, and Google Glass, which was Google's first
`5 augmented reality head-mounted display. So all of
`6 those utilized touch, including the head-mount
`7 display.
`8 Q. And when were you doing that work for
`9 Healium?
`10 A. That started in 2013. I will offer, though,
`11 that before all of these times, I was -- I worked for
`12 Boeing for about 16 years and was involved with
`13 development for touchscreen there starting as early as
`14 2001 working on the air traffic management program.
`15 Q. As part of your work for Boeing, did you work
`16 on any handheld devices?
`17 A. I did, yes.
`18 Q. Did those handheld devices have touch
`19 interfaces?
`20 A. They did, yes.
`21 Q. Did any of those touch interfaces have
`22 tap-activatable targets?
`23 A. I can't recall, but, again, the -- the UI
`24 widgets typically that we use, some of them default to
`25 tap and some of them default to touch. Buttons are
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`1 typically touch. Drop downs are typically tap. Open
`2 and close are typically tap, minimize/maximize/close.
`3 Q. I want to move on to your opinions on claim
`4 construction in this case. Did you construe terms in
`5 the claims for the '993 patent?
`6 A. I offer some opinions in my declaration on
`7 Page 16 through 21 on three different terms.
`8 Q. Did you construe any other terms in forming
`9 your opinions?
`10 A. I did not.
`11 Q. How did you determine which limitations to
`12 construe?
`13 A. I don't recall that exactly. You know, over
`14 the course of this case, I had discussions with
`15 counsel and -- and perhaps together through our
`16 discussions, we -- we determined that these three
`17 claim terms, it would be important to -- to the court
`18 to consider having a formal definition rather than
`19 plain and ordinary, I guess, which would be the
`20 default of an un-construed term.
`21 Q. So did you -- did you determine your
`22 constructions were the plain and ordinary meaning of
`23 the terms?
`24 A. No. No. That's not what I'm saying. I'm
`25 saying that -- and maybe this isn't correct from a
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`1 legal point of view, but if a term is un-construed, if
`2 -- if a term has never been brought up in the case as
`3 needing a special construction, I would assume that
`4 that's just how -- how one of skill in the art at the
`5 time of the invention would have understood that term
`6 to mean, which is essentially plain and ordinary, at
`7 least to a POSA at that time. But I'm not even sure
`8 if that's -- if that's accurate from a legal point of
`9 view. It's -- there -- there's -- there's three terms
`10 that I've offered construction for.
`11 Q. All right. Is the first one an electronic
`12 device?
`13 A. Yes, it is.
`14 Q. And your construction for that is a mobile
`15 handheld computer; is that correct?
`16 A. Yes, it is. Given the -- given how it's used
`17 in the '993 patent, I believe that's the most proper
`18 construction.
`19 Q. Is it your opinion that a mobile handheld
`20 computer is the plain meaning of an electronic device?
`21 A. Not necessarily in the absence of the patent,
`22 devoid of the patent. No, I wouldn't say so. I would
`23 say, you know, you could say a Cray computer, a super
`24 computer that takes up the size of the room could be
`25 called an electronic device, but in the context of
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`1 this patent, when you read the -- the claim in light
`2 of the specification, I believe that the most
`3 appropriate definition or construction is a mobile
`4 handheld computer for the reasons I cited in
`5 Paragraphs 37 through 43.
`6 Q. All right. And the other -- one of the other
`7 terms you construed is system functions; is that
`8 correct?
`9 A. Yes, that's correct.
`10 Q. And your construction for the term system
`11 functions is services or settings of the operating
`12 system; is that correct?
`13 A. Yes, that's correct.
`14 Q. And I believe you have the -- you said you
`15 have the patent in front of you there?
`16 A. I do, yes.
`17 Q. It's Exhibit 1001. So if you could turn to
`18 Claim 1.
`19 A. All right. I'm looking at Claim 1.
`20 Q. All right. The term system functions appears
`21 approximately Line 56 --
`22 A. I see that.
`23 Q. -- in Column 6.
`24 A. I see that.
`25 Q. Okay. The claim actually says,
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`1 "Predesignated system functions," correct?
`2 A. It does say that.
`3 Q. Why did you choose not to construe
`4 predesignated?
`5 A. I'm not sure if that was a conscious
`6 decision. I don't believe it was a conscious
`7 decision. I believe that if it was services or
`8 settings of the operating system, they're
`9 predesignated in the sense that the author of the
`10 operating system, the company and programmers that
`11 create the operating system, have predesignated those
`12 at the time that they design them and they wrote them
`13 so to me, it's almost understood that how can you have
`14 an operating system that wasn't conceived of earlier
`15 in time, designed and developed and deployed earlier
`16 in time? That's -- I can't think of a post-designated
`17 system function so, to me, it just seems logical.
`18 Q. What did you consider as the relevant date
`19 for your claim construction analysis?
`20 A. That would be the date of the patent or the
`21 priority date of the patent, I believe. I see on the
`22 face page, December 10th, 2002, and I believe in my
`23 report, I talk about the priority date, which I
`24 believe is the same, but it'd be nice to allow me to
`25 check that. I see that in Paragraph 33, "The priority
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`1 date of the invention claimed of the '993 patent is
`2 December 10th, 2002."
`3 Q. If I use the term POSA, or P-O-S-A, will you
`4 understand we're referring to a person of ordinary
`5 skill in the art for the '993 patent at that December
`6 10, 2002, date?
`7 A. I will understood that.
`8 Q. So as of December 10, 2002, had the first
`9 iPhone been released at that time?
`10 A. It had not.
`11 Q. Do you recall when the first iPhone was
`12 commercially available?
`13 A. 2007.
`14 Q. So you agree a POSA would not have known
`15 about the iPhone, correct?
`16 A. I'd agree they would not know about the
`17 iPhone, but -- but to the extent you're talking about
`18 touch screens, those -- those were in use well before
`19 the -- the date of the patent, the priority date.
`20 Q. You agree the iPhone was not something that
`21 would have been known to a POSA in 2002, because it
`22 had not been commercially released yet, correct?
`23 A. That is correct.
`24 Q. And it's your opinion that the plain meaning
`25 of the term electronic device is a mobile handheld
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`1 computer; is that correct?
`2 A. I --
`3 MR. GRAVES: Objection; form.
`4 A. Yeah, that's not how I testified actually. I
`5 testified that the -- the understanding by a POSA at
`6 the priority date of the patent when reading the
`7 specification, so in light of the specification, would
`8 be a mobile handheld device. I used the example of a
`9 Cray computer. If you just went to a POSA and said is
`10 a Cray computer an electronic device and they know
`11 nothing about this case, they know nothing about this
`12 patent, they may say yes, potentially, but I think the
`13 claim terms need to be understood in light of the
`14 patent, in light of the specification.
`15 Q. (BY MS. MILLER) So is it your opinion that
`16 the plain meaning of the term electronic device,
`17 within the context of the '993 patent, is a mobile
`18 handheld computer?
`19 A. Well, again, I don't want to -- I don't know
`20 if -- if I answer yes to that, I don't want to be
`21 stepping on any legal constructs that I don't quite
`22 understand because you're using the term "plain
`23 meaning." I feel that it would be constructive to the
`24 court to construe the term electronic device and give
`25 it a -- a construction. I'm proposing a construction
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`1 that makes sense for a POSA at the time of the
`2 invention. If you're characterizing that as now
`3 that's the plain meaning, I don't know that that's
`4 proper from a legal point of view once you have a
`5 construction to say that construction is the plain
`6 meaning, because when I think of plain meaning or
`7 plain and ordinary, I think that's associated with no
`8 construction, but here we have a proposed
`9 construction, so I'm not sure if I want to tie that in
`10 my answer to my proposed construction is plain and
`11 ordinary meaning. Do you see what I'm saying? I'm
`12 hesitant to -- to agree to that just because there --
`13 there may be some elements of the law that I don't
`14 understand, me not being an attorney.
`15 Q. Understood. But from your perspective as an
`16 expert, is your opinion that the plain and ordinary
`17 meaning of the term electronic device in the context
`18 of the '993 patent is a mobile handheld computer?
`19 A. I believe that's the exact same question you
`20 just asked, and what -- what I'm saying is I believe
`21 that should be -- I'll answer it this way: I believe
`22 that should be the understanding of a POSA, reading
`23 the specification, reading the claims at the time of
`24 the priority date of this patent. That would be the
`25 understanding of electronic device, but I'm hesitant
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`1 to say that's the plain and ordinary meaning just
`2 because I don't know if that has a legal significance
`3 to that.
`4 Q. Did you come up with the construction mobile
`5 handheld computer?
`6 A. I don't recall if -- if that was me coming up
`7 alone or if that came up through discussion with
`8 counsel and us arriving at that together. There was
`9 obviously discussion between the -- myself and the
`10 attorneys, the two attorneys that I've worked with on
`11 this case, and through lengthy discussion, that was
`12 the term that we arrived at. I can't tell you if --
`13 if that was myself alone or if it was, you know,
`14 through collaboration. If that's the nature of your
`15 question, I don't know.
`16 Q. You agree a personal digital assistant, or
`17 PDA, would meet your construction of an electronic
`18 device?
`19 A. I do. I do. I think I recall reading, it
`20 was either in Hisatomi or in '993, some passages that
`21 had to do with PDAs are coming down in size. I think
`22 it was some notion of different sizes of PDAs, but in
`23 general, I would agree with that, that a PDA would be
`24 considered a personal -- let me go to the
`25 construction. Which page was that again that we were
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`1 on? Never mind. It looks like it's Page 16. A
`2 mobile handheld computer. Was your question is a PDA
`3 is mobile handheld computer?
`4 Q. Yes. Is a PDA a mobile handheld computer?
`5 A. I'd say generally, yes.
`6 Q. Was a PDA running Windows CE something a POSA
`7 would have known about?
`8 A. Yes.
`9 Q. And Windows CE had a touch user interface,
`10 correct?
`11 A. Yes, it did.
`12 Q. Did the Windows CE interface in 2002 have
`13 tap-activatable targets?
`14 A. Likely so. I didn't study that, but likely
`15 so. And the same way that I said that UI elements
`16 typically have a mix of both touch and tap, the
`17 Windows CE operating system, as well as applications
`18 by third parties that would run under the Windows CE
`19 operating system likely had a mix of touch and tap.
`20 Q. Were the targets on a PDA running Windows CE
`21 small?
`22 A. I think that's a subjective question. You
`23 could -- you know, software designers/developers could
`24 design any size target size that they wanted for it,
`25 including large targets up -- up to the size of the
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`1 touchscreen. So I don't quite know how to answer your
`2 question.
`3 Q. Were the targets on a PDA running Windows CE
`4 approximately 1 millimeter, 3 millimeters, 5
`5 millimeters?
`6 A. Again, that's -- those are -- those are
`7 pretty small target sizes. 1, 3, and 5 millimeters
`8 are very small target sizes, but a software developer
`9 had the flexibility to design targets as small as one
`10 pixel and as large as a hundred percent of the pixels
`11 across the whole screen, so there were -- that's
`12 really the only limitation as far as the minimum bound
`13 and maximum bound of target sizes. So I don't think
`14 any expert could say yes, target sizes on Windows CE
`15 computers were typically 1, 3, or 5 millimeters. I
`16 wouldn't trust someone that offered that opinion.
`17 Q. Were there any touch-sensitive handheld
`18 devices in 2002 that used a drag action to activate an
`19 icon?
`20 A. Oh, without -- I mean, I haven't studied
`21 this, but I would say the answer is extremely likely,
`22 yes. Drag was -- touch was extremely well known. Tap
`23 was extremely well known. Drag was extremely well
`24 known. It's -- these were all options for UI
`25 designers. Different GUI widgets had -- graphical
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`1 user interface widgets had default behaviors that
`2 exercised all of those behaviors.
`3 Q. If we could turn to Paragraph 100 in your
`4 declaration. It's at Page 48.
`5 A. Okay. I'm there.
`6 Q. All right. You identify activation
`7 strategies known to a POSA as including a drag,
`8 correct?
`9 A. I do.
`10 Q. What do you mean by a drag activation in this
`11 context?
`12 A. A drag operation typically involves a mouse
`13 down or finger down or stylus down, so essentially in
`14 -- I think that's understood, followed by a movement
`15 across the display, so if it's a finger or stylus, it
`16 is sliding across the touch-sensitive surface of the
`17 display across some, you know, vertical or horizontal
`18 distance, and then lifting up the finger or stylus or
`19 if it was a mouse, lifting up the mouse button, that
`20 would be a drag operation.
`21 Q. And when you say -- I think you said drag
`22 activation. Does the activation occur upon the drag,
`23 the actual movement, or does it occur on the mouse up?
`24 A. Can you point me to where I said drag
`25 activation? I'm not sure where I --
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`1 Q. You call it activation strategy, correct?
`2 A. Oh, activation strategies. Yes. So drag --
`3 drag, I believe, was first developed to -- well, I
`4 know it in the '90s made its way into iOS -- I'm
`5 sorry, Mac OS 7. I may be misremembering it. It's
`6 either Mac OS 7 or 9 and the ability to take a file
`7 and drag it to a trash can, and then when you let go
`8 of the mouse while the file, which was an icon
`9 representing that file, was over that trash can,
`10 that's when the location of the file would be moved to
`11 a different location which was a directory associated
`12 with the trash. So I guess you could call it the
`13 activation happened on mouse up in the same way that a
`14 tap happened, but tap is not associated with a
`15 horizontal or vertical movement. It's just finger
`16 down/finger up, mouse down/mouse up, stylus
`17 down/stylus up, depending on what you're using.
`18 Q. In the -- the scenario that you just
`19 described where a file is dragged to the trash, is
`20 that a drag and drop?
`21 A. Yes.
`22 Q. And so do you consider drag and drop to be
`23 the same activation strategy as a drag?
`24 A. I think oftentimes, those are two words for
`25 the same thing. If -- if you said to a POSA, is drag
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`1 and drop the same as drag, maybe there's differences.
`2 Opening up a drawer like in Hisatomi, are you really
`3 dropping something? I don't know if that truly
`4 corresponds to, like, dropping a file into a trash
`5 can, but it definitely is a drag. You're -- you're
`6 opening up a drawer. When you have finger up or mouse
`7 up or stylus up, that drawer will either retract to
`8 its initial position. If it's below some distance
`9 threshold or it will stay in place. So are you really
`10 dropping something? I don't know if the word drop is
`11 truly applicable, but it certainly is a drag
`12 operation.
`13 Q. Can you provide an example from the 2002 time
`14 frame and the drag activation that did not involve
`15 actually dragging something on the screen?
`16 A. A drag that does not involve a drag? Is that
`17 kind of the question? Because everything is happening
`18 on the screen.
`19 Q. Well, you would agree that a drag activation
`20 can occur where the finger moves, but what you're
`21 trying to select is not moved on the screen?
`22 A. Oh, I mean, we see that in what's being
`23 described in -- in the pa

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