Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
`June 07, 2019
`June 07, 2019
`
`1
`
`·1· · · · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`·2· · · · · · · · · · · ·________________
`
`·3· · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`·4· · · _______________________________________________
`
`·5· · · GOOGLE LLC,· · · · · · · )Patent No. 8,213,970
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·6· · · · · · ·Petitioner,· · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·7· · · · · · · vs.· · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·8· · · AGIS SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT)
`· · · · LLC,· · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.· · ·)
`10
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·- - -
`11
`
`12
`· · · · · · ·DEPOSITION OF JAIME G. CARBONELL, Ph.D.
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22· · · REPRODUCTION OF THIS TRANSCRIPT IS PROHIBITED
`· · · · WITHOUT AUTHORIZATION FROM THE CERTIFYING
`23· · · AGENCY
`
`24
`
`25
`
`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
`(877) 479-2484
`(877) 479-2484
`
`Google 1022
`IPR2018-01079
`U.S. Patent No. 8,213,970
`
`
`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
`June 07, 2019
`June 07, 2019
`
`1
`
`·1· · · · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`·2· · · · · · · · · · · ·________________
`
`·3· · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`·4· · · _______________________________________________
`
`·5· · · GOOGLE LLC,· · · · · · · )Patent No. 8,213,970
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·6· · · · · · ·Petitioner,· · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·7· · · · · · · vs.· · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·8· · · AGIS SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT)
`· · · · LLC,· · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.· · ·)
`10
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·- - -
`11
`
`12
`· · · · · · ·DEPOSITION OF JAIME G. CARBONELL, Ph.D.
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22· · · REPRODUCTION OF THIS TRANSCRIPT IS PROHIBITED
`· · · · WITHOUT AUTHORIZATION FROM THE CERTIFYING
`23· · · AGENCY
`
`24
`
`25
`
`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
`(877) 479-2484
`(877) 479-2484
`
`Google 1022
`IPR2018-01079
`U.S. Patent No. 8,213,970
`
`
`
`
`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
`
`June 07, 2019June 07, 2019
`
`2
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · · DEPOSITION OF JAIME G.
`
`·2· · · CARBONELL, Ph.D., a witness herein, called by
`
`·3· · · the Petitioner, for examination, by and before
`
`·4· · · Karen A. Nickel, a Certified Realtime Reporter
`
`·5· · · and a notary public in and for the Commonwealth
`
`·6· · · of Pennsylvania, at The Webb Law Firm, One
`
`·7· · · Gateway Center, 420 Fort Duquesne Boulevard,
`
`·8· · · Suite 1200, Pittsburgh, PA 15222, on Friday,
`
`·9· · · June 7, 2019, at 9:10 a.m.
`
`10· · · COUNSEL PRESENT:
`
`11
`· · · · For the Petitioner:· · Jonathan Tuminaro, Ph.D.
`12· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Karen A. Wong-Chan, MEE
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Sterne Kessler Goldstein
`13· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·& Fox
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·1100 New York Avenue, NW
`14· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Washington, DC 20005
`
`15· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Michael A. Berta, Esq.
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Arnold & Porter, LLP
`16· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·7th Floor
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Three Embarcadero Center
`17· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·San Francisco, CA 94111
`
`18· · · For the Patent Owner:· Enrique W. Iturralde,
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Esq.
`19· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Vincent J. Rubino, III,
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Esq.
`20· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Brown Rudnick, LLP
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Seven Times Square
`21· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·New York, NY 10036
`
`22· · · Also Present: Jim Sherwood
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`
`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORTU.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
`
`(877) 479-2484(877) 479-2484
`
`
`
`
`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
`
`June 07, 2019June 07, 2019
`
`3
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · I N D E X
`
`·2· · · WITNESS· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
`
`·3· · · Dr. Carbonell
`
`·4· · · · · ·By Mr. Tuminaro· · · · · · · · · · · 4
`· · · · · · ·By Mr. Iturralde· · · · · · · · · ·196
`·5
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·E X H I B I T S
`·6
`· · · · NUMBER· · · · DESCRIPTION· · · · · · ·MARKED
`·7· · · Exhibit 1· ·Declaration of Jaime G.
`· · · · · · · · · · Carbonell, Ph.D.· · · · · · ·11
`·8· · · Exhibit 2· ·U.S. Patent
`· · · · · · · · · · No. 8,213,970· · · · · · · · 19
`·9· · · Exhibit 3· ·Declaration of David
`· · · · · · · · · · Hilliard Williams· · · · · · 39
`10· · · Exhibit 4· ·U.S. Patent
`· · · · · · · · · · No. 2006/0218232· · · · · · ·41
`11· · · Exhibit 5· ·Petition For Inter
`· · · · · · · · · · Partes Review· · · · · · · · 52
`12· · · Exhibit 6· ·Deposition of David
`· · · · · · · · · · Hilliard Williams· · · · · · 59
`13· · · Exhibit 7· ·U.S. Patent
`· · · · · · · · · · No. 5,325,310· · · · · · · · 85
`14· · · Exhibit 8· ·U.S. Patent
`· · · · · · · · · · No. 5,742,905· · · · · · · · 85
`15· · · Exhibit 9· ·Declaration of Dr. Jaime
`· · · · · · · · · · G. Carbonell· · · · · · · · 105
`16· · · Exhibit 10· Decision· · · · · · · · · · 125
`· · · · Exhibit 11· Declaration of Jaime G.
`17· · · · · · · · · Carbonell, Ph.D.· · · · · · 151
`· · · · Exhibit 12· US Patent Publication
`18· · · · · · · · · (Sheha, et al)· · · · · · · 156
`· · · · Exhibit 13· U.S. Patent
`19· · · · · · · · · No. 6,366,782· · · · · · · ·156
`· · · · Exhibit 14· U.S. Patent
`20· · · · · · · · · No. 9,408,055· · · · · · · ·162
`· · · · Exhibit 15· Petition For Inter
`21· · · · · · · · · Partes Review· · · · · · · ·162
`· · · · Exhibit 16· US Patent Publication
`22· · · · · · · · · (Lazaridis, et al)· · · · · 178
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`
`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORTU.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
`
`(877) 479-2484(877) 479-2484
`
`YVer1f
`
`
`
`
`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
`
`June 07, 2019June 07, 2019
`
`4
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·P R O C E E D I N G S
`
`·2· · · · · · · ·JAIME G. CARBONELL, Ph.D., a witness
`
`·3· · · herein, having been first duly sworn, was
`
`·4· · · examined and testified as follows:
`
`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · EXAMINATION
`
`·6· · · BY MR. TUMINARO:
`
`·7· · · · · ·Q.· · Good morning, sir.
`
`·8· · · · · ·A.· · Good morning.
`
`·9· · · · · ·Q.· · Would you please state your full
`
`10· · · name for the record?
`
`11· · · · · ·A.· · It is Jaime, J-A-I-M-E, middle
`
`12· · · initial G, last name Carbonell,
`
`13· · · C-A-R-B-O-N-E-L-L.
`
`14· · · · · ·Q.· · Great.· I understand you have been
`
`15· · · deposed before; is that right?
`
`16· · · · · ·A.· · That's correct.
`
`17· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· I'm going to set a couple of
`
`18· · · ground rules for this deposition; is that fair?
`
`19· · · · · ·A.· · If the attorneys don't object, yes.
`
`20· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· So I'm going to be asking you
`
`21· · · questions, as you know.· So I'm going to need a
`
`22· · · verbal answer to my questions.
`
`23· · · · · · · · ·Do you understand that?
`
`24· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`25· · · · · ·Q.· · I'm going to try to ask clear
`
`
`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORTU.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
`
`(877) 479-2484(877) 479-2484
`
`YVer1f
`
`
`
`
`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
`
`June 07, 2019June 07, 2019
`
`5
`
`·1· · · questions, but if at any time you don't
`
`·2· · · understand one of my questions, will you let me
`
`·3· · · know?
`
`·4· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`·5· · · · · ·Q.· · If you answer one of my questions,
`
`·6· · · I'm going to assume that you understood it; is
`
`·7· · · that fair?
`
`·8· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`·9· · · · · ·Q.· · So I'm going to take periodic breaks
`
`10· · · about once every hour, but if you need a break,
`
`11· · · just let me know.· Okay.
`
`12· · · · · ·A.· · Okay.
`
`13· · · · · ·Q.· · The one thing I'll ask, though, is
`
`14· · · if there is a pending question, I ask that you
`
`15· · · answer the question before we take a break.
`
`16· · · Okay?
`
`17· · · · · ·A.· · Okay.
`
`18· · · · · ·Q.· · Do you understand that you are
`
`19· · · testifying under oath here today?
`
`20· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.· This is what we just did.
`
`21· · · · · ·Q.· · Is there any reason you can't do
`
`22· · · that?
`
`23· · · · · ·A.· · No.
`
`24· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· What did you do to prepare
`
`25· · · for your deposition here today?
`
`
`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORTU.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
`
`(877) 479-2484(877) 479-2484
`
`YVer1f
`
`
`
`
`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
`
`June 07, 2019June 07, 2019
`
`6
`
`·1· · · · · ·A.· · I reread the materials that I used
`
`·2· · · in preparing the report, including the patents,
`
`·3· · · my own reports, the IPR Petition, the response,
`
`·4· · · et cetera, the cited prior art, and I reviewed
`
`·5· · · with Mr. Iturralde yesterday.
`
`·6· · · · · ·Q.· · Let's take those in pieces.· When
`
`·7· · · you were reviewing the references that you
`
`·8· · · talked about, about how long did you spend
`
`·9· · · doing that?
`
`10· · · · · ·A.· · Are you referring to my current
`
`11· · · review or the original review?
`
`12· · · · · ·Q.· · Well, you just told me in response
`
`13· · · to my question that you reviewed the patents
`
`14· · · and other materials in this case in preparation
`
`15· · · for your deposition.· So my question is how
`
`16· · · much time did you spend doing that?
`
`17· · · · · ·A.· · Right.· I am asking for a
`
`18· · · clarification if you meant just this latest
`
`19· · · review period, not the original review.
`
`20· · · · · ·Q.· · What did you mean when you answered
`
`21· · · my question?
`
`22· · · · · ·A.· · I meant the latter.
`
`23· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· So with respect to the
`
`24· · · latter, how long did you take?
`
`25· · · · · ·A.· · To review, specifically, the prior
`
`
`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORTU.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
`
`(877) 479-2484(877) 479-2484
`
`YVer1f
`
`
`
`
`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
`
`June 07, 2019June 07, 2019
`
`7
`
`·1· · · art?
`
`·2· · · · · ·Q.· · (Nodded head affirmatively.)· You
`
`·3· · · mentioned a --
`
`·4· · · · · ·A.· · The entirety?
`
`·5· · · · · ·Q.· · Yes.
`
`·6· · · · · ·A.· · About two days.
`
`·7· · · · · ·Q.· · Two full days, eight hours each day?
`
`·8· · · · · ·A.· · Roughly.
`
`·9· · · · · ·Q.· · And so then you also mentioned that,
`
`10· · · I'm assuming that you reviewed the references
`
`11· · · previously based on the way you answered that
`
`12· · · question; is that right?
`
`13· · · · · ·A.· · In order to prepare the report, yes.
`
`14· · · · · ·Q.· · So about how long, excluding your
`
`15· · · review of the references that you did in
`
`16· · · preparation for your deposition here today, and
`
`17· · · excluding your meeting that you had with
`
`18· · · counsel in preparation for this deposition,
`
`19· · · about how long, roughly, have you spent on this
`
`20· · · proceeding?
`
`21· · · · · ·A.· · Again, I need to ask for
`
`22· · · clarification.· You mean the entire process of
`
`23· · · reading the material, preparing the report,
`
`24· · · revising and so forth, everything excluding the
`
`25· · · last two or three days?
`
`
`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORTU.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
`
`(877) 479-2484(877) 479-2484
`
`YVer1f
`
`
`
`
`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
`
`June 07, 2019June 07, 2019
`
`8
`
`·1· · · · · ·Q.· · That's right.
`
`·2· · · · · ·A.· · Okay.· Without reviewing my record
`
`·3· · · where I actually do keep all this information,
`
`·4· · · I don't think I can answer that.· It was
`
`·5· · · clearly significantly longer than the current
`
`·6· · · review.· I have that information, I could tally
`
`·7· · · it up and answer later.
`
`·8· · · · · ·Q.· · Let's try it this way.· When were
`
`·9· · · you retained with respect to this proceeding
`
`10· · · that relates to the '970 patent?
`
`11· · · · · ·A.· · I don't recall the date.
`
`12· · · · · ·Q.· · Roughly.
`
`13· · · · · ·A.· · It was after the IPRs were filed.
`
`14· · · I'm trying to remember whether it was after
`
`15· · · they were instituted or not, and I don't recall
`
`16· · · that.
`
`17· · · · · ·Q.· · So it was sometime after the '970
`
`18· · · patent IPR was filed?
`
`19· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`20· · · · · ·Q.· · But maybe before it was instituted;
`
`21· · · is that what you're saying?
`
`22· · · · · ·A.· · I -- that's the -- I don't remember
`
`23· · · that exactly, so I cannot say that.
`
`24· · · · · ·Q.· · So just to refresh your memory, the
`
`25· · · Petition for the '970 patent was filed on May
`
`
`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORTU.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
`
`(877) 479-2484(877) 479-2484
`
`YVer1f
`
`
`
`
`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
`
`June 07, 2019June 07, 2019
`
`9
`
`·1· · · 15, 2018.· Do you recall that?
`
`·2· · · · · ·A.· · No, I do not recall the date now
`
`·3· · · that you said it.
`
`·4· · · · · ·Q.· · Does that sound right to you?
`
`·5· · · · · ·A.· · It sounds about right.· I was
`
`·6· · · engaged in this thing after that.
`
`·7· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· So you were retained by
`
`·8· · · counsel for this IPR with respect to the '970
`
`·9· · · patent sometime after May 15, 2018?
`
`10· · · · · ·A.· · That's right.
`
`11· · · · · ·Q.· · The institution decision is dated
`
`12· · · November 20, 2018.· Do you recall that?
`
`13· · · · · ·A.· · Not until you mentioned it, no.
`
`14· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· So were you retained for this
`
`15· · · proceeding sometime after May 2018 and before
`
`16· · · November 2018?
`
`17· · · · · ·A.· · It was after May, and I do not
`
`18· · · recall the date with respect to November.· It
`
`19· · · was around that time.
`
`20· · · · · ·Q.· · Around November of 2018?
`
`21· · · · · ·A.· · It was around that time, but I don't
`
`22· · · recall the date.
`
`23· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· So is it fair to say that you
`
`24· · · have been engaged on this matter with respect
`
`25· · · to the '970 patent for about eight months?
`
`
`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORTU.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
`
`(877) 479-2484(877) 479-2484
`
`YVer1f
`
`
`
`
`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
`
`June 07, 2019June 07, 2019
`
`10
`
`·1· · · · · ·A.· · Again, I mean, I can subtract one
`
`·2· · · date from another and that's roughly what it
`
`·3· · · comes out to, but I cannot -- unless I go back
`
`·4· · · and look at my records, I cannot cite the
`
`·5· · · specific date.· Therefore, I cannot cite the
`
`·6· · · exact --
`
`·7· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· I'm not asking for a specific
`
`·8· · · date.· Roughly you have been engaged in this
`
`·9· · · matter for about eight months; is that fair?
`
`10· · · · · ·A.· · That is approximately right.
`
`11· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· Great.· So over those eight
`
`12· · · months, about how much time have you spent on
`
`13· · · this matter?
`
`14· · · · · ·A.· · I have the records of that back in
`
`15· · · my office, so I could tell you quite exactly,
`
`16· · · but I haven't tallied it up.
`
`17· · · · · ·Q.· · As you sit here right now, do you
`
`18· · · have a rough estimate of about how much time
`
`19· · · over the past eight months you have worked on
`
`20· · · this matter?
`
`21· · · · · ·A.· · Not a good estimate.
`
`22· · · · · ·Q.· · Well, let me ask it this way.· Did
`
`23· · · you work some amount every month over the last
`
`24· · · eight months on this matter?
`
`25· · · · · ·A.· · Most months I did work.
`
`
`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORTU.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
`
`(877) 479-2484(877) 479-2484
`
`YVer1f
`
`
`
`
`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
`
`June 07, 2019June 07, 2019
`
`11
`
`·1· · · · · ·Q.· · You did some work?
`
`·2· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`·3· · · · · ·Q.· · Were there some months that you
`
`·4· · · worked more than others?
`
`·5· · · · · ·A.· · Yes, there were.
`
`·6· · · · · ·Q.· · Which months would have been more?
`
`·7· · · · · ·A.· · That was in the preparation of the
`
`·8· · · report.
`
`·9· · · · · ·Q.· · Preparation of the Declaration that
`
`10· · · you --
`
`11· · · · · ·A.· · The Declaration.
`
`12· · · · · ·Q.· · --· that you submitted?
`
`13· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`14· · · · · · · · · · · MR. TUMINARO:· I'll just have
`
`15· · · this marked.
`
`16· · · · · · · · · · · (Deposition Exhibit No. 1 was
`
`17· · · marked for identification.)
`
`18· · · BY MR. TUMINARO:
`
`19· · · · · ·Q.· · You have been handed what's been
`
`20· · · marked as Exhibit 1 for identification
`
`21· · · purposes.· This is titled Declaration of Jaime
`
`22· · · G. Carbonell, Ph.D., in IPR 2018-01079.· Do you
`
`23· · · see that?
`
`24· · · · · ·A.· · Yes, I do see that.
`
`25· · · · · ·Q.· · And if you would turn with me to the
`
`
`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORTU.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
`
`(877) 479-2484(877) 479-2484
`
`YVer1f
`
`
`
`
`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
`
`June 07, 2019June 07, 2019
`
`12
`
`·1· · · last page, Page 43 --
`
`·2· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`·3· · · · · ·Q.· · Is that your signature?
`
`·4· · · · · ·A.· · It is.
`
`·5· · · · · ·Q.· · And it's dated March 29, 2019?
`
`·6· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`·7· · · · · ·Q.· · So you signed this Declaration on
`
`·8· · · March 29, 2019?
`
`·9· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`10· · · · · ·Q.· · So in preparing this Declaration,
`
`11· · · the bulk of your time in preparing this
`
`12· · · Declaration, was that in the month of March?
`
`13· · · · · ·A.· · It probably started the previous
`
`14· · · month.
`
`15· · · · · ·Q.· · In February?
`
`16· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`17· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· So from February to March
`
`18· · · when you submitted this Declaration, about how
`
`19· · · much time did you spend on this matter?
`
`20· · · · · ·A.· · Again, I would have to go back to
`
`21· · · the record to say that, to address your
`
`22· · · previous question.· I spent more time during
`
`23· · · that period than during other periods.
`
`24· · · · · ·Q.· · So was it a hundred hours that you
`
`25· · · spent on this Declaration?
`
`
`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORTU.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
`
`(877) 479-2484(877) 479-2484
`
`YVer1f
`
`
`
`
`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
`
`June 07, 2019June 07, 2019
`
`13
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Counsel, asked
`
`·2· · · and answered.· You have been at this for a
`
`·3· · · while now.· He can give you his numbers after
`
`·4· · · reviewing his records.
`
`·5· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Yeah.· I don't
`
`·6· · · like to guess when I don't have a good basis
`
`·7· · · for doing so.
`
`·8· · · BY MR. TUMINARO:
`
`·9· · · · · ·Q.· · So as you sit here right now, you
`
`10· · · have no estimation of about how much time you
`
`11· · · spent on your Declaration?
`
`12· · · · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Objection,
`
`13· · · asked and answered.
`
`14· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I don't have it
`
`15· · · precise enough in order to voice a reliable
`
`16· · · estimate.
`
`17· · · BY MR. TUMINARO:
`
`18· · · · · ·Q.· · Is that something you could look up
`
`19· · · and get back to me?
`
`20· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`21· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· So I will come back to that
`
`22· · · question.
`
`23· · · · · · · · ·Over the last four years, you have
`
`24· · · been involved in 11 different engagements; is
`
`25· · · that right?
`
`
`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORTU.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
`
`(877) 479-2484(877) 479-2484
`
`YVer1f
`
`
`
`
`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
`
`June 07, 2019June 07, 2019
`
`14
`
`·1· · · · · ·A.· · Sounds about right.
`
`·2· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.
`
`·3· · · · · ·A.· · I would have to then review the
`
`·4· · · records and the dates to make sure that 11 is
`
`·5· · · the right number, but it's about right.
`
`·6· · · · · ·Q.· · And over that time that you were
`
`·7· · · engaged in those 11 engagements, Brown Rudnick
`
`·8· · · is the only law firm that retained you more
`
`·9· · · than once; is that true?
`
`10· · · · · ·A.· · I have been engaged by Skiermont
`
`11· · · more than once, but it may not have been in the
`
`12· · · last four years, the first one.
`
`13· · · · · ·Q.· · Now, I'm limited to the last four
`
`14· · · years.
`
`15· · · · · ·A.· · Yeah.· I'm trying to remember the
`
`16· · · date of the prior engagement.· The two firms in
`
`17· · · the past few years I have been engaged with
`
`18· · · more than once have been Skiermont Derby and
`
`19· · · Brown Rudnick.
`
`20· · · · · ·Q.· · To be clear, over the last four
`
`21· · · years, Brown Rudnick, of the 11 engagements
`
`22· · · that you have been involved in, Brown Rudnick
`
`23· · · has engaged you seven times; is that right?
`
`24· · · · · ·A.· · Again, I don't recall the exact
`
`25· · · number, but it's been multiple times, yes.
`
`
`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORTU.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
`
`(877) 479-2484(877) 479-2484
`
`YVer1f
`
`
`
`
`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
`
`June 07, 2019June 07, 2019
`
`15
`
`·1· · · · · ·Q.· · Does seven sound like a reasonable
`
`·2· · · number?
`
`·3· · · · · ·A.· · I would have thought more like five
`
`·4· · · or six, but it may well be seven.
`
`·5· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· If you would turn with me to
`
`·6· · · Paragraph 34 of your report on Page 20.
`
`·7· · · · · ·A.· · Do you want me to read the
`
`·8· · · paragraph?
`
`·9· · · · · ·Q.· · No, no.· Just turn to the page.
`
`10· · · Well, actually, I just want to confirm, in this
`
`11· · · section, Section A, that spans from Paragraph
`
`12· · · 34 to Paragraph 37 on Page 22 and 37 --
`
`13· · · Paragraph 37 goes on to Page 23; is that right?
`
`14· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`15· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· So in this section, your --
`
`16· · · if I'm reading your Declaration correctly,
`
`17· · · you're offering the opinion that Kubala and
`
`18· · · Hammond don't disclose the forced message
`
`19· · · alert; is that your opinion?
`
`20· · · · · ·A.· · I am disclosing that they do not
`
`21· · · disclose -- the title is just an abbreviation
`
`22· · · for the claim element that -- in which this is
`
`23· · · included.
`
`24· · · · · ·Q.· · The claim element being in Claim 1,
`
`25· · · its means for attaching a forced message alert
`
`
`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORTU.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
`
`(877) 479-2484(877) 479-2484
`
`YVer1f
`
`
`
`
`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
`
`June 07, 2019June 07, 2019
`
`16
`
`·1· · · software packet to a voice or text message,
`
`·2· · · creating a forced message alert that is
`
`·3· · · transmitted by said sender PDA/cell phone to
`
`·4· · · the recipient PDA/cell phone; is that right?
`
`·5· · · · · ·A.· · With the context of what it means to
`
`·6· · · be a forced message that requires a response.
`
`·7· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· And there is a similar
`
`·8· · · limitation in Claim 6 that you're saying is not
`
`·9· · · met, creating the forced message alert on said
`
`10· · · sender PDA/cell phone by attaching a voice or
`
`11· · · text message to a forced message alert
`
`12· · · application software packet to said voice or
`
`13· · · text message.
`
`14· · · · · · · · ·Is that right?
`
`15· · · · · ·A.· · Again, requiring the context of this
`
`16· · · requires a response and that previously the
`
`17· · · forced message software is loaded onto the
`
`18· · · devices.
`
`19· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· And what you said is that the
`
`20· · · reason that, in your opinion, this limitation
`
`21· · · is not met, you said it's in the context of
`
`22· · · what it means to be a forced message alert
`
`23· · · that's required by a response; is that right?
`
`24· · · · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Objection,
`
`25· · · mischaracterizing the witness' testimony.
`
`
`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORTU.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
`
`(877) 479-2484(877) 479-2484
`
`YVer1f
`
`
`
`
`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
`
`June 07, 2019June 07, 2019
`
`17
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · · MR. TUMINARO:· I read it from
`
`·2· · · the transcript.· Is that right?
`
`·3· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Yes, and then I
`
`·4· · · added the additional context of the forced
`
`·5· · · message software being loaded and running in
`
`·6· · · the other devices.
`
`·7· · · BY MR. TUMINARO:
`
`·8· · · · · ·Q.· · What do you mean by "other devices"?
`
`·9· · · · · ·A.· · The other telephones, PDAs.
`
`10· · · · · ·Q.· · Oh.· The PDAs that are talking to
`
`11· · · each other?
`
`12· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`13· · · · · ·Q.· · So if you turn with me to Page, or
`
`14· · · Paragraph 36 of your Declaration, I believe
`
`15· · · this is what you were referring to as what's
`
`16· · · required by the forced message alert; is that
`
`17· · · right?
`
`18· · · · · · · · ·Well, let me read it.· It says, it
`
`19· · · is my opinion that the review and
`
`20· · · acknowledgement of an E-mail message is
`
`21· · · optional rather than forced as required by the
`
`22· · · claims.· Is that your opinion?
`
`23· · · · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Objection to
`
`24· · · form.
`
`25· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· In brief you
`
`
`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORTU.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
`
`(877) 479-2484(877) 479-2484
`
`YVer1f
`
`
`
`
`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
`
`June 07, 2019June 07, 2019
`
`18
`
`·1· · · read only one sentence of my entire opinion,
`
`·2· · · but that is correct.
`
`·3· · · BY MR. TUMINARO:
`
`·4· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· And you say that it's
`
`·5· · · required by the claims in Paragraph 36; right?
`
`·6· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`·7· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· And in support of that
`
`·8· · · statement, everything else in Paragraph 36, the
`
`·9· · · citations are to the specification and not the
`
`10· · · claims of the '970 patent; right?
`
`11· · · · · ·A.· · Let me read the paragraph so I can
`
`12· · · answer.
`
`13· · · · · ·Q.· · Sure.· And then I'll ask my question
`
`14· · · again.
`
`15· · · · · ·A.· · Ask the question again to make sure
`
`16· · · I am answering the correct question.
`
`17· · · · · ·Q.· · So in the first sentence of
`
`18· · · Paragraph 36, you talk about something that's
`
`19· · · required in the claims; is that right?
`
`20· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`21· · · · · ·Q.· · In your support for that statement,
`
`22· · · you cite other portions of the '970 patent in
`
`23· · · Paragraph 36, but all of those citations to the
`
`24· · · '970 patent are to the specification and not
`
`25· · · the claims; right?
`
`
`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORTU.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
`
`(877) 479-2484(877) 479-2484
`
`YVer1f
`
`
`
`
`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
`
`June 07, 2019June 07, 2019
`
`19
`
`·1· · · · · ·A.· · That is right.· The specification
`
`·2· · · provides the appropriate support for what a
`
`·3· · · forced message alert means in the context of
`
`·4· · · the claims.
`
`·5· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· Let's look at the '970
`
`·6· · · patent.
`
`·7· · · · · · · · · · · (Deposition Exhibit No. 2 was
`
`·8· · · marked for identification.)
`
`·9· · · BY MR. TUMINARO:
`
`10· · · · · ·Q.· · You have been handed what's been
`
`11· · · marked as Exhibit 2 for identification
`
`12· · · purposes.· This is U.S. Patent No. 8,213,970.
`
`13· · · · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`14· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`15· · · · · ·Q.· · This is -- I'll refer to it as the
`
`16· · · '970 patent and you'll understand what I mean?
`
`17· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`18· · · · · ·Q.· · You have seen this document before?
`
`19· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`20· · · · · ·Q.· · And in your Paragraph 36, you cite
`
`21· · · several portions of the specification.· In
`
`22· · · particular, the citations are to a cite on
`
`23· · · Column 7 and a couple of cites on Column 8; is
`
`24· · · that right?
`
`25· · · · · ·A.· · That is correct.
`
`
`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORTU.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
`
`(877) 479-2484(877) 479-2484
`
`YVer1f
`
`
`
`
`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
`
`June 07, 2019June 07, 2019
`
`20
`
`·1· · · · · ·Q.· · The cite on Column 7, it's from
`
`·2· · · Lines 20 to 24, it says, when the forced text
`
`·3· · · or voice alert is received, the user/operator
`
`·4· · · is presented with the required list response.
`
`·5· · · · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`·6· · · · · ·A.· · The required response list, yes.
`
`·7· · · · · ·Q.· · Thank you for that clarification.
`
`·8· · · And in Column 8, you cite text that starts at
`
`·9· · · Line 25 and that text goes all the way down to
`
`10· · · Line 44; is that right?
`
`11· · · · · ·A.· · That's in two separate places, but
`
`12· · · in totality, yes.
`
`13· · · · · ·Q.· · Those are the sections that you rely
`
`14· · · on in Column 8 of the '970 patent in your
`
`15· · · citations in Paragraph 36; right?
`
`16· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`17· · · · · ·Q.· · Now, looking at the paragraph -- I
`
`18· · · mean, looking at Column 8 at Line 37, which is
`
`19· · · a line that you cite, it says, after the
`
`20· · · acknowledgment of the receipt is transmitted,
`
`21· · · the forced voice alert software application
`
`22· · · program effectively takes control of the
`
`23· · · recipient PC or PDA/cell phone.
`
`24· · · · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`25· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`
`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORTU.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
`
`(877) 479-2484(877) 479-2484
`
`YVer1f
`
`
`
`
`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
`
`June 07, 2019June 07, 2019
`
`21
`
`·1· · · · · ·Q.· · And it goes on to say that if a text
`
`·2· · · message was received, the forced voice alert
`
`·3· · · software application program causes the text
`
`·4· · · message and the response list to be shown on
`
`·5· · · the display of the recipient PC or PDA/cell
`
`·6· · · phone until a manual response is selected from
`
`·7· · · the response list.
`
`·8· · · · · · · · ·Is that right?
`
`·9· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`10· · · · · ·Q.· · So this portion of the specification
`
`11· · · explains how the response list is caused to be
`
`12· · · appeared on the display; right?
`
`13· · · · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Objection,
`
`14· · · form.
`
`15· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· It needs to be
`
`16· · · taken in the context of the rest of the
`
`17· · · specification, but it certainly addresses that.
`
`18· · · BY MR. TUMINARO:
`
`19· · · · · ·Q.· · Well, in fact, the specification,
`
`20· · · the portions that I just read, say that the
`
`21· · · forced message alert software application
`
`22· · · program is the thing that actually causes the
`
`23· · · response list to be shown on the display;
`
`24· · · right?
`
`25· · · · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Objection to
`
`
`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORTU.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
`
`(877) 479-2484(877) 479-2484
`
`YVer1f
`
`
`
`
`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
`
`June 07, 2019June 07, 2019
`
`22
`
`·1· · · form.
`
`·2· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· The thing is the
`
`·3· · · particular program which is running on the
`
`·4· · · receiving device -- by device I mean PC or PDA
`
`·5· · · cell phone, as stated in here -- and that
`
`·6· · · software is what causes the response list to be
`
`·7· · · displayed and, essentially, takes control of
`
`·8· · · the device until a selection -- selective
`
`·9· · · response is chosen by the user.
`
`10· · · BY MR. TUMINARO:
`
`11· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· So you agree with me that the
`
`12· · · specification says that the software takes
`
`13· · · control of the device; right?
`
`14· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`15· · · · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Objection,
`
`16· · · form.· Objection, mischaracterizing the
`
`17· · · witness' testimony.
`
`18· · · BY MR. TUMINARO:
`
`19· · · · · ·Q.· · And you would agree with me that the
`
`20· · · specification says that the application program
`
`21· · · causes the text message and the response list
`
`22· · · to be shown on the display; right?
`
`23· · · · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Objection to
`
`24· · · form.
`
`25· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I don't know if
`
`
`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORTU.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
`
`(877) 479-2484(877) 479-2484
`
`YVer1f
`
`
`
`
`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
`
`June 07, 2019June 07, 2019
`
`23
`
`·1· · · this characterizes an application program.
`
`·2· · · BY MR. TUMINARO:
`
`·3· · · · · ·Q.· · Well, the text --
`
`·4· · · · · ·A.· · Software application program, yes.
`
`·5· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· So we agree that the
`
`·6· · · specification says that the software
`
`·7· · · application program causes the text message and
`
`·8· · · the response list to be shown on the display;
`
`·9· · · right?
`
`10· · · · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Objection,
`
`11· · · form.
`
`12· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· It says that it
`
`13· · · effectively takes control, and once it is in
`
`14· · · control of the device, then it causes a text
`
`15· · · message to be displayed, yes.
`
`16· · · BY MR. TUMINARO:
`
`17· · · · · ·Q.· · Well, in particular, Lines 40 to 42
`
`18· · · say that the software application program
`
`19· · · causes the text message and the response list
`
`20· · · to be shown on the display; right?
`
`21· · · · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Objection to
`
`22· · · form.
`
`23· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· That's what that
`
`24· · · line says, yes.
`
`25· · · BY MR. TUMINARO:
`
`
`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORTU.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
`
`(877) 479-2484(877) 479-2484
`
`YVer1f
`
`
`
`
`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
`
`June 07, 2019June 07, 2019
`
`24
`
`·1· · · · · ·Q.· · So the specification says, tells us
`
`·2· · · how the response list gets onto the display;
`
`·3· · · right?
`
`·4· · · · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Objection to
`
`·5· · · form.
`
`·6· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· It tells us that
`
`·7· · · it is done via the software application program
`
`·8· · · that had been downloaded into it.
`
`·9· · · BY MR. TUMINARO:
`
`10· · · · · ·Q.· · All right.· Great.
`
`11· · · · · · · · ·Could we look at the claim, Claim 1,
`
`12· · · it starts on the bottom of Column 8 and goes on
`
`13· · · to Column 9.
`
`14· · · · · ·A.· · Where Column 8 is a preamble; column
`
`15· · · 9 is the limitations.
`
`16· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· You see in Column 9 around
`
`17· · · Line 10, the Claim 1, like the specification,
`
`18· · · recites a software application program; right?
`
`19· · · · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Objection to
`
`20· · · form.
`
`21· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Yes.· It does it
`
`22· · · in a brief form, but yes.
`
`23· · · BY MR. TUMINARO:
`
`24· · · · · ·Q.· · And like the specification --
`
`25· · · withdrawn.
`
`
`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORTU.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
`
`(877) 479-2484(877) 479-2484
`
`YVer1f
`
`
`
`
`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
`
`June 07, 2019June 07, 2019
`
`25
`
`·1· · · · · · · · ·You see in Column 9 around Line 24
`
`·2· · · through 25, Claim 1, like the specification,
`
`·3· · · talks about a response list; right?
`
`·4· · · · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Objection to
`
`·5· · · form.
`
`·6· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· It talks about a
`
`·7· · · response list.
`
`·8· · · BY MR. TUMINARO:
`
`·9· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· But Claim 1, unlike the
`
`10· · · specification, has no requirement as to how
`
`11· · · that response list gets on the display; right?
`
`12· · · · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Objection to
`
`13· · · form.
`
`14· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I would have to
`
`15· · · read all of Claim 1 to be able to answer the
`
`16· · · question.
`
`17· · · BY MR. TUMINARO:
`
`18· · · · · ·Q.· · Please read the claim.
`
`19· · · · · ·A.· · On --
`
`20· · · · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Can you repeat
`
`21· · · the question, please?
`
`22· · · · · · · · · · · MR. TUMINARO:· Sure.
`
`23· · · BY MR. TUMINARO:
`
`24· · · · · ·Q.· · Claim 1, unlike the specification,
`
`25· · · has no requirement as to how the response list
`
`
`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORTU.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
`
`(877) 479-2484(877) 479-2484
`
`YVer1f
`
`
`
`
`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonel
Accessing this document will incur an additional charge of $.
After purchase, you can access this document again without charge.
Accept $ Charge
Still Working On It
This document is taking longer than usual to download. This can happen if we need to contact the court directly to obtain the document and their servers are running slowly.
Give it another minute or two to complete, and then try the refresh button.
A few More Minutes ... Still Working
It can take up to 5 minutes for us to download a document if the court servers are running slowly.
Thank you for your continued patience.
This document could not be displayed.
We could not find this document within its docket. Please go back to the docket page and check the link. If that does not work, go back to the docket and refresh it to pull the newest information.
Your account does not support viewing this document.
You need a Paid Account to view this document. Click here to change your account type.
Your account does not support viewing this document.
Set your membership
status to view this document.
With a Docket Alarm membership, you'll
get a whole lot more, including:
- Up-to-date information for this case.
- Email alerts whenever there is an update.
- Full text search for other cases.
- Get email alerts whenever a new case matches your search.
One Moment Please
The filing “” is large (MB) and is being downloaded.
Please refresh this page in a few minutes to see if the filing has been downloaded. The filing will also be emailed to you when the download completes.
Your document is on its way!
If you do not receive the document in five minutes, contact support at support@docketalarm.com.
Sealed Document
We are unable to display this document, it may be under a court ordered seal.
If you have proper credentials to access the file, you may proceed directly to the court's system using your government issued username and password.
Access Government Site
