`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
`June 07, 2019
`June 07, 2019
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`·1· · · · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · · ·________________
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`·3· · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·4· · · _______________________________________________
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`·5· · · GOOGLE LLC,· · · · · · · )Patent No. 8,213,970
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·6· · · · · · ·Petitioner,· · · ·)
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`·7· · · · · · · vs.· · · · · · · )
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`·8· · · AGIS SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT)
`· · · · LLC,· · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.· · ·)
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`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·- - -
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`· · · · · · ·DEPOSITION OF JAIME G. CARBONELL, Ph.D.
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`22· · · REPRODUCTION OF THIS TRANSCRIPT IS PROHIBITED
`· · · · WITHOUT AUTHORIZATION FROM THE CERTIFYING
`23· · · AGENCY
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`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
`(877) 479-2484
`(877) 479-2484
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`Google 1022
`IPR2018-01079
`U.S. Patent No. 8,213,970
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`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · DEPOSITION OF JAIME G.
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`·2· · · CARBONELL, Ph.D., a witness herein, called by
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`·3· · · the Petitioner, for examination, by and before
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`·4· · · Karen A. Nickel, a Certified Realtime Reporter
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`·5· · · and a notary public in and for the Commonwealth
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`·6· · · of Pennsylvania, at The Webb Law Firm, One
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`·7· · · Gateway Center, 420 Fort Duquesne Boulevard,
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`·8· · · Suite 1200, Pittsburgh, PA 15222, on Friday,
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`·9· · · June 7, 2019, at 9:10 a.m.
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`10· · · COUNSEL PRESENT:
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`· · · · For the Petitioner:· · Jonathan Tuminaro, Ph.D.
`12· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Karen A. Wong-Chan, MEE
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Sterne Kessler Goldstein
`13· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·& Fox
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·1100 New York Avenue, NW
`14· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Washington, DC 20005
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`15· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Michael A. Berta, Esq.
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Arnold & Porter, LLP
`16· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·7th Floor
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Three Embarcadero Center
`17· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·San Francisco, CA 94111
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`18· · · For the Patent Owner:· Enrique W. Iturralde,
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Esq.
`19· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Vincent J. Rubino, III,
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`20· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Brown Rudnick, LLP
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Seven Times Square
`21· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·New York, NY 10036
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`22· · · Also Present: Jim Sherwood
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`U.S. LEGAL SUPPORTU.S. LEGAL SUPPORT
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`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
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`June 07, 2019June 07, 2019
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · I N D E X
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`·2· · · WITNESS· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
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`·3· · · Dr. Carbonell
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`·4· · · · · ·By Mr. Tuminaro· · · · · · · · · · · 4
`· · · · · · ·By Mr. Iturralde· · · · · · · · · ·196
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`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·E X H I B I T S
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`· · · · NUMBER· · · · DESCRIPTION· · · · · · ·MARKED
`·7· · · Exhibit 1· ·Declaration of Jaime G.
`· · · · · · · · · · Carbonell, Ph.D.· · · · · · ·11
`·8· · · Exhibit 2· ·U.S. Patent
`· · · · · · · · · · No. 8,213,970· · · · · · · · 19
`·9· · · Exhibit 3· ·Declaration of David
`· · · · · · · · · · Hilliard Williams· · · · · · 39
`10· · · Exhibit 4· ·U.S. Patent
`· · · · · · · · · · No. 2006/0218232· · · · · · ·41
`11· · · Exhibit 5· ·Petition For Inter
`· · · · · · · · · · Partes Review· · · · · · · · 52
`12· · · Exhibit 6· ·Deposition of David
`· · · · · · · · · · Hilliard Williams· · · · · · 59
`13· · · Exhibit 7· ·U.S. Patent
`· · · · · · · · · · No. 5,325,310· · · · · · · · 85
`14· · · Exhibit 8· ·U.S. Patent
`· · · · · · · · · · No. 5,742,905· · · · · · · · 85
`15· · · Exhibit 9· ·Declaration of Dr. Jaime
`· · · · · · · · · · G. Carbonell· · · · · · · · 105
`16· · · Exhibit 10· Decision· · · · · · · · · · 125
`· · · · Exhibit 11· Declaration of Jaime G.
`17· · · · · · · · · Carbonell, Ph.D.· · · · · · 151
`· · · · Exhibit 12· US Patent Publication
`18· · · · · · · · · (Sheha, et al)· · · · · · · 156
`· · · · Exhibit 13· U.S. Patent
`19· · · · · · · · · No. 6,366,782· · · · · · · ·156
`· · · · Exhibit 14· U.S. Patent
`20· · · · · · · · · No. 9,408,055· · · · · · · ·162
`· · · · Exhibit 15· Petition For Inter
`21· · · · · · · · · Partes Review· · · · · · · ·162
`· · · · Exhibit 16· US Patent Publication
`22· · · · · · · · · (Lazaridis, et al)· · · · · 178
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`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·P R O C E E D I N G S
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`·2· · · · · · · ·JAIME G. CARBONELL, Ph.D., a witness
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`·3· · · herein, having been first duly sworn, was
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`·4· · · examined and testified as follows:
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · EXAMINATION
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`·6· · · BY MR. TUMINARO:
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`·7· · · · · ·Q.· · Good morning, sir.
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`·8· · · · · ·A.· · Good morning.
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`·9· · · · · ·Q.· · Would you please state your full
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`10· · · name for the record?
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`11· · · · · ·A.· · It is Jaime, J-A-I-M-E, middle
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`12· · · initial G, last name Carbonell,
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`13· · · C-A-R-B-O-N-E-L-L.
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`14· · · · · ·Q.· · Great.· I understand you have been
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`15· · · deposed before; is that right?
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`16· · · · · ·A.· · That's correct.
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`17· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· I'm going to set a couple of
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`18· · · ground rules for this deposition; is that fair?
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`19· · · · · ·A.· · If the attorneys don't object, yes.
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`20· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· So I'm going to be asking you
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`21· · · questions, as you know.· So I'm going to need a
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`22· · · verbal answer to my questions.
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`23· · · · · · · · ·Do you understand that?
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`24· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
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`25· · · · · ·Q.· · I'm going to try to ask clear
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`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
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`June 07, 2019June 07, 2019
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`·1· · · questions, but if at any time you don't
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`·2· · · understand one of my questions, will you let me
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`·3· · · know?
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`·4· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
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`·5· · · · · ·Q.· · If you answer one of my questions,
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`·6· · · I'm going to assume that you understood it; is
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`·7· · · that fair?
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`·8· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
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`·9· · · · · ·Q.· · So I'm going to take periodic breaks
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`10· · · about once every hour, but if you need a break,
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`11· · · just let me know.· Okay.
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`12· · · · · ·A.· · Okay.
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`13· · · · · ·Q.· · The one thing I'll ask, though, is
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`14· · · if there is a pending question, I ask that you
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`15· · · answer the question before we take a break.
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`16· · · Okay?
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`17· · · · · ·A.· · Okay.
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`18· · · · · ·Q.· · Do you understand that you are
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`19· · · testifying under oath here today?
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`20· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.· This is what we just did.
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`21· · · · · ·Q.· · Is there any reason you can't do
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`22· · · that?
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`23· · · · · ·A.· · No.
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`24· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· What did you do to prepare
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`25· · · for your deposition here today?
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`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
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`June 07, 2019June 07, 2019
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`·1· · · · · ·A.· · I reread the materials that I used
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`·2· · · in preparing the report, including the patents,
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`·3· · · my own reports, the IPR Petition, the response,
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`·4· · · et cetera, the cited prior art, and I reviewed
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`·5· · · with Mr. Iturralde yesterday.
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`·6· · · · · ·Q.· · Let's take those in pieces.· When
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`·7· · · you were reviewing the references that you
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`·8· · · talked about, about how long did you spend
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`·9· · · doing that?
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`10· · · · · ·A.· · Are you referring to my current
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`11· · · review or the original review?
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`12· · · · · ·Q.· · Well, you just told me in response
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`13· · · to my question that you reviewed the patents
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`14· · · and other materials in this case in preparation
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`15· · · for your deposition.· So my question is how
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`16· · · much time did you spend doing that?
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`17· · · · · ·A.· · Right.· I am asking for a
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`18· · · clarification if you meant just this latest
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`19· · · review period, not the original review.
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`20· · · · · ·Q.· · What did you mean when you answered
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`21· · · my question?
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`22· · · · · ·A.· · I meant the latter.
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`23· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· So with respect to the
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`24· · · latter, how long did you take?
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`25· · · · · ·A.· · To review, specifically, the prior
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`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
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`June 07, 2019June 07, 2019
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`·1· · · art?
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`·2· · · · · ·Q.· · (Nodded head affirmatively.)· You
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`·3· · · mentioned a --
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`·4· · · · · ·A.· · The entirety?
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`·5· · · · · ·Q.· · Yes.
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`·6· · · · · ·A.· · About two days.
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`·7· · · · · ·Q.· · Two full days, eight hours each day?
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`·8· · · · · ·A.· · Roughly.
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`·9· · · · · ·Q.· · And so then you also mentioned that,
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`10· · · I'm assuming that you reviewed the references
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`11· · · previously based on the way you answered that
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`12· · · question; is that right?
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`13· · · · · ·A.· · In order to prepare the report, yes.
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`14· · · · · ·Q.· · So about how long, excluding your
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`15· · · review of the references that you did in
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`16· · · preparation for your deposition here today, and
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`17· · · excluding your meeting that you had with
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`18· · · counsel in preparation for this deposition,
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`19· · · about how long, roughly, have you spent on this
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`20· · · proceeding?
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`21· · · · · ·A.· · Again, I need to ask for
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`22· · · clarification.· You mean the entire process of
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`23· · · reading the material, preparing the report,
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`24· · · revising and so forth, everything excluding the
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`25· · · last two or three days?
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`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
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`·1· · · · · ·Q.· · That's right.
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`·2· · · · · ·A.· · Okay.· Without reviewing my record
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`·3· · · where I actually do keep all this information,
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`·4· · · I don't think I can answer that.· It was
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`·5· · · clearly significantly longer than the current
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`·6· · · review.· I have that information, I could tally
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`·7· · · it up and answer later.
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`·8· · · · · ·Q.· · Let's try it this way.· When were
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`·9· · · you retained with respect to this proceeding
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`10· · · that relates to the '970 patent?
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`11· · · · · ·A.· · I don't recall the date.
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`12· · · · · ·Q.· · Roughly.
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`13· · · · · ·A.· · It was after the IPRs were filed.
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`14· · · I'm trying to remember whether it was after
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`15· · · they were instituted or not, and I don't recall
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`16· · · that.
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`17· · · · · ·Q.· · So it was sometime after the '970
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`18· · · patent IPR was filed?
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`19· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
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`20· · · · · ·Q.· · But maybe before it was instituted;
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`21· · · is that what you're saying?
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`22· · · · · ·A.· · I -- that's the -- I don't remember
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`23· · · that exactly, so I cannot say that.
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`24· · · · · ·Q.· · So just to refresh your memory, the
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`25· · · Petition for the '970 patent was filed on May
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`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
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`·1· · · 15, 2018.· Do you recall that?
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`·2· · · · · ·A.· · No, I do not recall the date now
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`·3· · · that you said it.
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`·4· · · · · ·Q.· · Does that sound right to you?
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`·5· · · · · ·A.· · It sounds about right.· I was
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`·6· · · engaged in this thing after that.
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`·7· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· So you were retained by
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`·8· · · counsel for this IPR with respect to the '970
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`·9· · · patent sometime after May 15, 2018?
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`10· · · · · ·A.· · That's right.
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`11· · · · · ·Q.· · The institution decision is dated
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`12· · · November 20, 2018.· Do you recall that?
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`13· · · · · ·A.· · Not until you mentioned it, no.
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`14· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· So were you retained for this
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`15· · · proceeding sometime after May 2018 and before
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`16· · · November 2018?
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`17· · · · · ·A.· · It was after May, and I do not
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`18· · · recall the date with respect to November.· It
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`19· · · was around that time.
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`20· · · · · ·Q.· · Around November of 2018?
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`21· · · · · ·A.· · It was around that time, but I don't
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`22· · · recall the date.
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`23· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· So is it fair to say that you
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`24· · · have been engaged on this matter with respect
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`25· · · to the '970 patent for about eight months?
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`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
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`·1· · · · · ·A.· · Again, I mean, I can subtract one
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`·2· · · date from another and that's roughly what it
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`·3· · · comes out to, but I cannot -- unless I go back
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`·4· · · and look at my records, I cannot cite the
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`·5· · · specific date.· Therefore, I cannot cite the
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`·6· · · exact --
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`·7· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· I'm not asking for a specific
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`·8· · · date.· Roughly you have been engaged in this
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`·9· · · matter for about eight months; is that fair?
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`10· · · · · ·A.· · That is approximately right.
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`11· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· Great.· So over those eight
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`12· · · months, about how much time have you spent on
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`13· · · this matter?
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`14· · · · · ·A.· · I have the records of that back in
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`15· · · my office, so I could tell you quite exactly,
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`16· · · but I haven't tallied it up.
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`17· · · · · ·Q.· · As you sit here right now, do you
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`18· · · have a rough estimate of about how much time
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`19· · · over the past eight months you have worked on
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`20· · · this matter?
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`21· · · · · ·A.· · Not a good estimate.
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`22· · · · · ·Q.· · Well, let me ask it this way.· Did
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`23· · · you work some amount every month over the last
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`24· · · eight months on this matter?
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`25· · · · · ·A.· · Most months I did work.
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`·1· · · · · ·Q.· · You did some work?
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`·2· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
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`·3· · · · · ·Q.· · Were there some months that you
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`·4· · · worked more than others?
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`·5· · · · · ·A.· · Yes, there were.
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`·6· · · · · ·Q.· · Which months would have been more?
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`·7· · · · · ·A.· · That was in the preparation of the
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`·8· · · report.
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`·9· · · · · ·Q.· · Preparation of the Declaration that
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`10· · · you --
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`11· · · · · ·A.· · The Declaration.
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`12· · · · · ·Q.· · --· that you submitted?
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`13· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
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`14· · · · · · · · · · · MR. TUMINARO:· I'll just have
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`15· · · this marked.
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`16· · · · · · · · · · · (Deposition Exhibit No. 1 was
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`17· · · marked for identification.)
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`18· · · BY MR. TUMINARO:
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`19· · · · · ·Q.· · You have been handed what's been
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`20· · · marked as Exhibit 1 for identification
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`21· · · purposes.· This is titled Declaration of Jaime
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`22· · · G. Carbonell, Ph.D., in IPR 2018-01079.· Do you
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`23· · · see that?
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`24· · · · · ·A.· · Yes, I do see that.
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`25· · · · · ·Q.· · And if you would turn with me to the
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`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
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`·1· · · last page, Page 43 --
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`·2· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
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`·3· · · · · ·Q.· · Is that your signature?
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`·4· · · · · ·A.· · It is.
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`·5· · · · · ·Q.· · And it's dated March 29, 2019?
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`·6· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
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`·7· · · · · ·Q.· · So you signed this Declaration on
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`·8· · · March 29, 2019?
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`·9· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
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`10· · · · · ·Q.· · So in preparing this Declaration,
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`11· · · the bulk of your time in preparing this
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`12· · · Declaration, was that in the month of March?
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`13· · · · · ·A.· · It probably started the previous
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`14· · · month.
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`15· · · · · ·Q.· · In February?
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`16· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
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`17· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· So from February to March
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`18· · · when you submitted this Declaration, about how
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`19· · · much time did you spend on this matter?
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`20· · · · · ·A.· · Again, I would have to go back to
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`21· · · the record to say that, to address your
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`22· · · previous question.· I spent more time during
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`23· · · that period than during other periods.
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`24· · · · · ·Q.· · So was it a hundred hours that you
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`25· · · spent on this Declaration?
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`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
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`June 07, 2019June 07, 2019
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Counsel, asked
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`·2· · · and answered.· You have been at this for a
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`·3· · · while now.· He can give you his numbers after
`
`·4· · · reviewing his records.
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Yeah.· I don't
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`·6· · · like to guess when I don't have a good basis
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`·7· · · for doing so.
`
`·8· · · BY MR. TUMINARO:
`
`·9· · · · · ·Q.· · So as you sit here right now, you
`
`10· · · have no estimation of about how much time you
`
`11· · · spent on your Declaration?
`
`12· · · · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Objection,
`
`13· · · asked and answered.
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`14· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I don't have it
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`15· · · precise enough in order to voice a reliable
`
`16· · · estimate.
`
`17· · · BY MR. TUMINARO:
`
`18· · · · · ·Q.· · Is that something you could look up
`
`19· · · and get back to me?
`
`20· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`21· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· So I will come back to that
`
`22· · · question.
`
`23· · · · · · · · ·Over the last four years, you have
`
`24· · · been involved in 11 different engagements; is
`
`25· · · that right?
`
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`June 07, 2019June 07, 2019
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`·1· · · · · ·A.· · Sounds about right.
`
`·2· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.
`
`·3· · · · · ·A.· · I would have to then review the
`
`·4· · · records and the dates to make sure that 11 is
`
`·5· · · the right number, but it's about right.
`
`·6· · · · · ·Q.· · And over that time that you were
`
`·7· · · engaged in those 11 engagements, Brown Rudnick
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`·8· · · is the only law firm that retained you more
`
`·9· · · than once; is that true?
`
`10· · · · · ·A.· · I have been engaged by Skiermont
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`11· · · more than once, but it may not have been in the
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`12· · · last four years, the first one.
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`13· · · · · ·Q.· · Now, I'm limited to the last four
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`14· · · years.
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`15· · · · · ·A.· · Yeah.· I'm trying to remember the
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`16· · · date of the prior engagement.· The two firms in
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`17· · · the past few years I have been engaged with
`
`18· · · more than once have been Skiermont Derby and
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`19· · · Brown Rudnick.
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`20· · · · · ·Q.· · To be clear, over the last four
`
`21· · · years, Brown Rudnick, of the 11 engagements
`
`22· · · that you have been involved in, Brown Rudnick
`
`23· · · has engaged you seven times; is that right?
`
`24· · · · · ·A.· · Again, I don't recall the exact
`
`25· · · number, but it's been multiple times, yes.
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`15
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`·1· · · · · ·Q.· · Does seven sound like a reasonable
`
`·2· · · number?
`
`·3· · · · · ·A.· · I would have thought more like five
`
`·4· · · or six, but it may well be seven.
`
`·5· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· If you would turn with me to
`
`·6· · · Paragraph 34 of your report on Page 20.
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`·7· · · · · ·A.· · Do you want me to read the
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`·8· · · paragraph?
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`·9· · · · · ·Q.· · No, no.· Just turn to the page.
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`10· · · Well, actually, I just want to confirm, in this
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`11· · · section, Section A, that spans from Paragraph
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`12· · · 34 to Paragraph 37 on Page 22 and 37 --
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`13· · · Paragraph 37 goes on to Page 23; is that right?
`
`14· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`15· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· So in this section, your --
`
`16· · · if I'm reading your Declaration correctly,
`
`17· · · you're offering the opinion that Kubala and
`
`18· · · Hammond don't disclose the forced message
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`19· · · alert; is that your opinion?
`
`20· · · · · ·A.· · I am disclosing that they do not
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`21· · · disclose -- the title is just an abbreviation
`
`22· · · for the claim element that -- in which this is
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`23· · · included.
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`24· · · · · ·Q.· · The claim element being in Claim 1,
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`25· · · its means for attaching a forced message alert
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`16
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`·1· · · software packet to a voice or text message,
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`·2· · · creating a forced message alert that is
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`·3· · · transmitted by said sender PDA/cell phone to
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`·4· · · the recipient PDA/cell phone; is that right?
`
`·5· · · · · ·A.· · With the context of what it means to
`
`·6· · · be a forced message that requires a response.
`
`·7· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· And there is a similar
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`·8· · · limitation in Claim 6 that you're saying is not
`
`·9· · · met, creating the forced message alert on said
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`10· · · sender PDA/cell phone by attaching a voice or
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`11· · · text message to a forced message alert
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`12· · · application software packet to said voice or
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`13· · · text message.
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`14· · · · · · · · ·Is that right?
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`15· · · · · ·A.· · Again, requiring the context of this
`
`16· · · requires a response and that previously the
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`17· · · forced message software is loaded onto the
`
`18· · · devices.
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`19· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· And what you said is that the
`
`20· · · reason that, in your opinion, this limitation
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`21· · · is not met, you said it's in the context of
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`22· · · what it means to be a forced message alert
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`23· · · that's required by a response; is that right?
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`24· · · · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Objection,
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`25· · · mischaracterizing the witness' testimony.
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · MR. TUMINARO:· I read it from
`
`·2· · · the transcript.· Is that right?
`
`·3· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Yes, and then I
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`·4· · · added the additional context of the forced
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`·5· · · message software being loaded and running in
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`·6· · · the other devices.
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`·7· · · BY MR. TUMINARO:
`
`·8· · · · · ·Q.· · What do you mean by "other devices"?
`
`·9· · · · · ·A.· · The other telephones, PDAs.
`
`10· · · · · ·Q.· · Oh.· The PDAs that are talking to
`
`11· · · each other?
`
`12· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`13· · · · · ·Q.· · So if you turn with me to Page, or
`
`14· · · Paragraph 36 of your Declaration, I believe
`
`15· · · this is what you were referring to as what's
`
`16· · · required by the forced message alert; is that
`
`17· · · right?
`
`18· · · · · · · · ·Well, let me read it.· It says, it
`
`19· · · is my opinion that the review and
`
`20· · · acknowledgement of an E-mail message is
`
`21· · · optional rather than forced as required by the
`
`22· · · claims.· Is that your opinion?
`
`23· · · · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Objection to
`
`24· · · form.
`
`25· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· In brief you
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`18
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`·1· · · read only one sentence of my entire opinion,
`
`·2· · · but that is correct.
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`·3· · · BY MR. TUMINARO:
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`·4· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· And you say that it's
`
`·5· · · required by the claims in Paragraph 36; right?
`
`·6· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`·7· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· And in support of that
`
`·8· · · statement, everything else in Paragraph 36, the
`
`·9· · · citations are to the specification and not the
`
`10· · · claims of the '970 patent; right?
`
`11· · · · · ·A.· · Let me read the paragraph so I can
`
`12· · · answer.
`
`13· · · · · ·Q.· · Sure.· And then I'll ask my question
`
`14· · · again.
`
`15· · · · · ·A.· · Ask the question again to make sure
`
`16· · · I am answering the correct question.
`
`17· · · · · ·Q.· · So in the first sentence of
`
`18· · · Paragraph 36, you talk about something that's
`
`19· · · required in the claims; is that right?
`
`20· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`21· · · · · ·Q.· · In your support for that statement,
`
`22· · · you cite other portions of the '970 patent in
`
`23· · · Paragraph 36, but all of those citations to the
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`24· · · '970 patent are to the specification and not
`
`25· · · the claims; right?
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`June 07, 2019June 07, 2019
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`·1· · · · · ·A.· · That is right.· The specification
`
`·2· · · provides the appropriate support for what a
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`·3· · · forced message alert means in the context of
`
`·4· · · the claims.
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`·5· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· Let's look at the '970
`
`·6· · · patent.
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`·7· · · · · · · · · · · (Deposition Exhibit No. 2 was
`
`·8· · · marked for identification.)
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`·9· · · BY MR. TUMINARO:
`
`10· · · · · ·Q.· · You have been handed what's been
`
`11· · · marked as Exhibit 2 for identification
`
`12· · · purposes.· This is U.S. Patent No. 8,213,970.
`
`13· · · · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`14· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`15· · · · · ·Q.· · This is -- I'll refer to it as the
`
`16· · · '970 patent and you'll understand what I mean?
`
`17· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`18· · · · · ·Q.· · You have seen this document before?
`
`19· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`20· · · · · ·Q.· · And in your Paragraph 36, you cite
`
`21· · · several portions of the specification.· In
`
`22· · · particular, the citations are to a cite on
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`23· · · Column 7 and a couple of cites on Column 8; is
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`24· · · that right?
`
`25· · · · · ·A.· · That is correct.
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`June 07, 2019June 07, 2019
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`20
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`·1· · · · · ·Q.· · The cite on Column 7, it's from
`
`·2· · · Lines 20 to 24, it says, when the forced text
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`·3· · · or voice alert is received, the user/operator
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`·4· · · is presented with the required list response.
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`·5· · · · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`·6· · · · · ·A.· · The required response list, yes.
`
`·7· · · · · ·Q.· · Thank you for that clarification.
`
`·8· · · And in Column 8, you cite text that starts at
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`·9· · · Line 25 and that text goes all the way down to
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`10· · · Line 44; is that right?
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`11· · · · · ·A.· · That's in two separate places, but
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`12· · · in totality, yes.
`
`13· · · · · ·Q.· · Those are the sections that you rely
`
`14· · · on in Column 8 of the '970 patent in your
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`15· · · citations in Paragraph 36; right?
`
`16· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`17· · · · · ·Q.· · Now, looking at the paragraph -- I
`
`18· · · mean, looking at Column 8 at Line 37, which is
`
`19· · · a line that you cite, it says, after the
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`20· · · acknowledgment of the receipt is transmitted,
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`21· · · the forced voice alert software application
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`22· · · program effectively takes control of the
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`23· · · recipient PC or PDA/cell phone.
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`24· · · · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`25· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
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`·1· · · · · ·Q.· · And it goes on to say that if a text
`
`·2· · · message was received, the forced voice alert
`
`·3· · · software application program causes the text
`
`·4· · · message and the response list to be shown on
`
`·5· · · the display of the recipient PC or PDA/cell
`
`·6· · · phone until a manual response is selected from
`
`·7· · · the response list.
`
`·8· · · · · · · · ·Is that right?
`
`·9· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`10· · · · · ·Q.· · So this portion of the specification
`
`11· · · explains how the response list is caused to be
`
`12· · · appeared on the display; right?
`
`13· · · · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Objection,
`
`14· · · form.
`
`15· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· It needs to be
`
`16· · · taken in the context of the rest of the
`
`17· · · specification, but it certainly addresses that.
`
`18· · · BY MR. TUMINARO:
`
`19· · · · · ·Q.· · Well, in fact, the specification,
`
`20· · · the portions that I just read, say that the
`
`21· · · forced message alert software application
`
`22· · · program is the thing that actually causes the
`
`23· · · response list to be shown on the display;
`
`24· · · right?
`
`25· · · · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Objection to
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`June 07, 2019June 07, 2019
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`·1· · · form.
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· The thing is the
`
`·3· · · particular program which is running on the
`
`·4· · · receiving device -- by device I mean PC or PDA
`
`·5· · · cell phone, as stated in here -- and that
`
`·6· · · software is what causes the response list to be
`
`·7· · · displayed and, essentially, takes control of
`
`·8· · · the device until a selection -- selective
`
`·9· · · response is chosen by the user.
`
`10· · · BY MR. TUMINARO:
`
`11· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· So you agree with me that the
`
`12· · · specification says that the software takes
`
`13· · · control of the device; right?
`
`14· · · · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`15· · · · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Objection,
`
`16· · · form.· Objection, mischaracterizing the
`
`17· · · witness' testimony.
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`18· · · BY MR. TUMINARO:
`
`19· · · · · ·Q.· · And you would agree with me that the
`
`20· · · specification says that the application program
`
`21· · · causes the text message and the response list
`
`22· · · to be shown on the display; right?
`
`23· · · · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Objection to
`
`24· · · form.
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`25· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I don't know if
`
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`June 07, 2019June 07, 2019
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`23
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`·1· · · this characterizes an application program.
`
`·2· · · BY MR. TUMINARO:
`
`·3· · · · · ·Q.· · Well, the text --
`
`·4· · · · · ·A.· · Software application program, yes.
`
`·5· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· So we agree that the
`
`·6· · · specification says that the software
`
`·7· · · application program causes the text message and
`
`·8· · · the response list to be shown on the display;
`
`·9· · · right?
`
`10· · · · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Objection,
`
`11· · · form.
`
`12· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· It says that it
`
`13· · · effectively takes control, and once it is in
`
`14· · · control of the device, then it causes a text
`
`15· · · message to be displayed, yes.
`
`16· · · BY MR. TUMINARO:
`
`17· · · · · ·Q.· · Well, in particular, Lines 40 to 42
`
`18· · · say that the software application program
`
`19· · · causes the text message and the response list
`
`20· · · to be shown on the display; right?
`
`21· · · · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Objection to
`
`22· · · form.
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`23· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· That's what that
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`24· · · line says, yes.
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`25· · · BY MR. TUMINARO:
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`Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.Jaime Carbonell, Ph.D.
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`June 07, 2019June 07, 2019
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`24
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`·1· · · · · ·Q.· · So the specification says, tells us
`
`·2· · · how the response list gets onto the display;
`
`·3· · · right?
`
`·4· · · · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Objection to
`
`·5· · · form.
`
`·6· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· It tells us that
`
`·7· · · it is done via the software application program
`
`·8· · · that had been downloaded into it.
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`·9· · · BY MR. TUMINARO:
`
`10· · · · · ·Q.· · All right.· Great.
`
`11· · · · · · · · ·Could we look at the claim, Claim 1,
`
`12· · · it starts on the bottom of Column 8 and goes on
`
`13· · · to Column 9.
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`14· · · · · ·A.· · Where Column 8 is a preamble; column
`
`15· · · 9 is the limitations.
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`16· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· You see in Column 9 around
`
`17· · · Line 10, the Claim 1, like the specification,
`
`18· · · recites a software application program; right?
`
`19· · · · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Objection to
`
`20· · · form.
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`21· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Yes.· It does it
`
`22· · · in a brief form, but yes.
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`23· · · BY MR. TUMINARO:
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`24· · · · · ·Q.· · And like the specification --
`
`25· · · withdrawn.
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`June 07, 2019June 07, 2019
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`25
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`·1· · · · · · · · ·You see in Column 9 around Line 24
`
`·2· · · through 25, Claim 1, like the specification,
`
`·3· · · talks about a response list; right?
`
`·4· · · · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Objection to
`
`·5· · · form.
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`·6· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· It talks about a
`
`·7· · · response list.
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`·8· · · BY MR. TUMINARO:
`
`·9· · · · · ·Q.· · Okay.· But Claim 1, unlike the
`
`10· · · specification, has no requirement as to how
`
`11· · · that response list gets on the display; right?
`
`12· · · · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Objection to
`
`13· · · form.
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`14· · · · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I would have to
`
`15· · · read all of Claim 1 to be able to answer the
`
`16· · · question.
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`17· · · BY MR. TUMINARO:
`
`18· · · · · ·Q.· · Please read the claim.
`
`19· · · · · ·A.· · On --
`
`20· · · · · · · · · · · MR. ITURRALDE:· Can you repeat
`
`21· · · the question, please?
`
`22· · · · · · · · · · · MR. TUMINARO:· Sure.
`
`23· · · BY MR. TUMINARO:
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`24· · · · · ·Q.· · Claim 1, unlike the specification,
`
`25· · · has no requirement as to how the response list
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