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`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
`KAWASAKI RAIL CAR, INC.,
` Petitioner,
`v. Case IPR2017-01036
`SCOTT BLAIR,
` Patent Owner.
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
`
`Video-recorded Deposition Upon Oral Examination of:
` JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN
`
`Location: Meredith & Keyhani
` 205 Main Street
` East Aurora, New York 14052
`
`Date: February 28, 2018
`
`Time: 9:42 a.m.
`
`Reported By: MICHELLE MUNDT ROCHA
`
`12
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`Page 2
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`1 A P P E A R A N C E S
`2 Appearing on Behalf of Petitioner:
`3 Armin Ghiam, Esq.
`4 Zaed M. Billah, Esq.
`5 Andrews Kurth Kenyon LLP
`6 One Broadway
`7 New York, New York 10004-1007
`8 aghiam@andrewskurthkenyon.com
`9 zbillah@andrewskurthkenyon.com
`10
`11 Appearing on Behalf of Patent Owner:
`12 Dariush Keyhani, Esq.
`13 Meredith & Keyhani, PLLC
`14 125 Park Avenue, 25th Floor
`15 New York, New York 10017
`16 dkeyhani@meredithkeyhani.com
`17
`18 Appearing as the Videographer:
`19 Peter Colucci
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
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`Page 3
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`1 P R O C E E D I N G S
`2 WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 28, 2018;
`3 (Proceedings in the above-titled matter
`4 commencing at 9:42 a.m.)
`5 * * *
`6 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. We are
`7 on the record at 9:42 a.m. on Wednesday, February 28,
`8 2018. This is the videotaped deposition of Joseph
`9 Zicherman.
`10 My name is Peter Colucci, here with court
`11 reporter Michelle Rocha. We are here from Veritext
`12 National Deposition and Litigation Services. This
`13 deposition is being held at 205 Main Street in East
`14 Aurora, New York. The caption of this case is
`15 Kawasaki Rail Car versus Scott Blair.
`16 At this time would counsel please
`17 introduce themselves for the record.
`18 MR. GHIAM: Armin Ghiam on behalf of
`19 petitioner, Kawasaki Rail Car, Inc.
`20 MR. BILLAH: Zaed Billah on behalf of
`21 Kawasaki Rail Car Inc.
`22 MR. KEYHANI: Dariush Keyhani of
`23 Meredith & Keyhani on behalf of the patent owner,
`24 Scott Blair.
`25 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Will the court reporter
`
`Page 4
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. GHIAM
`2 please swear in the witness.
`3 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN,
`4 called herein as a witness, first being sworn,
`5 testified as follows:
`6 EXAMINATION BY MR. GHIAM:
`7 Q. Good morning. Can you please state your
`8 full name and address for the record?
`9 A. Joseph B. Zicherman. Address is 808
`10 Gilman Street in Berkeley, California 94710.
`11 Q. Have you been deposed before?
`12 A. I have.
`13 Q. When was that?
`14 A. The last deposition was perhaps two months
`15 ago.
`16 Q. How many times have you been deposed
`17 before?
`18 A. Several hundred.
`19 Q. In connection with what sort of cases have
`20 you been deposed before?
`21 A. Primarily forensic cases involving fire
`22 safety.
`23 Q. Have you been involved with any patent
`24 cases before?
`25 A. No.
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`Page 5
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. GHIAM
`2 Q. What types of opinions do you provide for
`3 the cases that you have been deposed in?
`4 MR. KEYHANI: Objection. Form.
`5 A. Can you be more specific?
`6 Q. What types of opinions do you provide for
`7 these cases that you said you've been deposed at?
`8 MR. KEYHANI: Objection.
`9 Q. Do you opine on fire issues?
`10 A. Primarily.
`11 Q. Okay.
`12 A. And then the underlying mechanical or
`13 chemical or human factors, et cetera, issues.
`14 Q. What was the subject matter of the last
`15 case that you were deposed in?
`16 A. The last case --
`17 MR. KEYHANI: Objection.
`18 You can answer.
`19 A. The last case involved a fire in a
`20 multi-story, multi-occupancy building where there was
`21 a loss of life, several dozen people were forced out
`22 of their apartments, several dozen businesses were
`23 effectively destroyed.
`24 Q. Have you been deposed in a case related to
`25 a rail car?
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`Page 6
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. GHIAM
`2 A. Related to a rail car.
`3 MR. KEYHANI: Objection. Form.
`4 You can answer the question.
`5 A. I don't recall.
`6 Q. Have you been deposed in a case related to
`7 consumer electronics?
`8 A. Yes.
`9 Q. Do you remember when this was?
`10 A. Pardon?
`11 Q. Do you remember when this deposition was?
`12 A. Well, the last case that I was involved in
`13 involved a television set that may or may not have
`14 been responsible for a fire in a hotel.
`15 Q. Do you remember when you were deposed for
`16 this case?
`17 A. I was not deposed in that case.
`18 Q. Well, do you remember the title of the
`19 case or the caption of the case?
`20 A. I just remember that LG was the defendant.
`21 Q. Any other consumer electronic cases that
`22 you have been involved with?
`23 A. Without being diffuse, when I get involved
`24 in evaluation of a fire, I'll frequently be asked to
`25 consider the role of appliances present, which can be
`
`Page 7
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. GHIAM
`2 consumer electronics, they could be a computer. There
`3 are all sorts of possibilities frequently.
`4 Q. Fair enough. Thank you very much.
`5 I'm sure your counsel has reviewed the
`6 ground rules with you. I'm going to go over the
`7 ground rules.
`8 I would like to remind you that I am going
`9 to ask questions, and you are going to answer my
`10 questions, and our court reporter is going to record
`11 the answers.
`12 It's important for you to speak up, so
`13 that the court reporter can hear you and record your
`14 answers. It's also important to provide your answers
`15 with words -- so no shaking, no nods -- so that the
`16 court reporter could record your answers.
`17 It's also important for us not to talk
`18 over each other, because she wouldn't be able to
`19 record the answer.
`20 Is that okay with you?
`21 A. Yes.
`22 Q. I would like to remind you that you're
`23 under oath today. It's the same -- so you're
`24 obligated to tell the truth. It's the same as if
`25 you're testifying in court.
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`Page 8
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. GHIAM
`2 Do you understand that?
`3 A. Yes.
`4 Q. If you don't understand any of my
`5 questions, please let me know. I will try to clarify
`6 the question and ask it again.
`7 Is that okay?
`8 A. Yes.
`9 Q. If you need a break, please let me know.
`10 However, if a question is pending, I will ask you to
`11 provide your answer for the question, and then we can
`12 go on the break.
`13 A. Yes.
`14 Q. Is there any reason why you can't provide
`15 full, complete and accurate answers today?
`16 A. No.
`17 Q. Are you sick today?
`18 A. No.
`19 Q. Are you taking any medication?
`20 A. I take blood pressure medication.
`21 Q. Could that affect your ability to provide
`22 truthful answers today?
`23 A. No.
`24 Q. Are you under the influence of any drugs
`25 today?
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`Page 9
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. GHIAM
`2 A. No.
`3 Q. Have you had any alcoholic drinks today?
`4 A. No.
`5 Q. Thank you very much.
`6 How did you prepare for today's
`7 deposition?
`8 A. How did I prepare? I reviewed materials
`9 provided to me by Mr. Keyhani, I reviewed the
`10 declaration I had prepared earlier, and I met with
`11 Mr. Keyhani briefly last evening.
`12 Q. How long did you meet with Mr. Keyhani?
`13 A. Probably an hour.
`14 Q. Can you please name a few of the documents
`15 that you reviewed for this deposition today?
`16 A. I reviewed Mr. Malo's declaration, I
`17 reviewed the full FRA proceedings, I reviewed the
`18 Blair '602 patent, and I reviewed a number of items
`19 that are listed in my declaration primarily translated
`20 from Japanese.
`21 Q. Did you review the Consumer Product Safety
`22 Commission guidelines for today's deposition?
`23 A. Yes, I did.
`24 Q. Did you review a reference named Yamada
`25 for today?
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`Page 10
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. GHIAM
`2 A. Yes.
`3 Q. Did you review a reference named Namikawa
`4 for today's deposition?
`5 A. I believe I did. I don't remember all the
`6 names. It might be good to have my declaration in
`7 front of me, because that has a listing, and then I
`8 won't be speculating.
`9 Q. Did you review the Japan train operation
`10 association magazine for today's deposition?
`11 A. The parts of it that were provided to me.
`12 Q. Did you review the reference named
`13 Sedighzadeh?
`14 A. I'm guessing. The names are somewhat
`15 unfamiliar to me.
`16 Q. Thank you.
`17 I would like to ask about your educational
`18 background. What did you study in college?
`19 A. I studied wood products engineering at the
`20 State University College of Forestry, which is
`21 basically an industrial engineering kind of a degree
`22 related to the utilization of wood and wood products.
`23 Q. Let me go back for a second.
`24 Did you talk to anybody else besides
`25 Mr. Keyhani for today's deposition?
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`Page 12
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. GHIAM
`2 classes?
`3 A. Those are the ones that I recall. It's
`4 been about 50 years, so...
`5 Q. I understand.
`6 Did you take any mechanical engineering
`7 classes?
`8 A. Well, I took mechanics courses. They were
`9 called wood mechanics, but they were essentially
`10 analogous to statics and dynamics in mechanical
`11 engineering.
`12 Q. Any other mechanical engineering classes
`13 that you can recall?
`14 A. Not named mechanical engineering classes.
`15 Q. Any other classes that were not named
`16 mechanical engineering but pertained to subjects
`17 related to mechanical engineering?
`18 A. Fractured mechanics, orthogonal behavior
`19 of wood-based materials.
`20 Q. All of these mechanics classes were
`21 related to wood-based products; right?
`22 A. Well, wood and composites.
`23 Q. And composites.
`24 Did you take any electrical engineering
`25 classes in college?
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`Page 11
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. GHIAM
`2 A. I spoke with his partner.
`3 Q. Do you know the name of the partner?
`4 A. Jennifer Meredith.
`5 Q. Did you talk to Mr. Long for today's
`6 deposition?
`7 A. I did not.
`8 Q. Back to the question about your academic
`9 background. You said you studied wood science
`10 engineering; am I correct?
`11 A. Wood products engineer is what the program
`12 was called.
`13 Q. Can you tell me more about the program and
`14 what it's focused on?
`15 A. Sure. It had basic mathematics,
`16 engineering, chemistry, some botany and then applied
`17 technology areas like adhesives technology and
`18 conversion of wood into wood products.
`19 Q. What sort of engineering classes did you
`20 take for the program?
`21 A. I took two semesters of physics, three
`22 semesters of chemistry, three semesters of calculus,
`23 took a year of biology and then specialized courses in
`24 the major wood mechanics, things of that sort.
`25 Q. Did you take any other engineering
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`Page 13
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. GHIAM
`2 A. No.
`3 Q. When were you engaged by Mr. Keyhani for
`4 this IPR proceeding?
`5 A. Probably in the fall of 2017.
`6 Q. Did he reach out to you?
`7 A. He reached out to the company I work for.
`8 Q. What did he ask you to do?
`9 A. His firm asked me --
`10 MR. KEYHANI: I'm going to object, just to
`11 the extent it gets into work product privilege.
`12 So just be careful. We're not going to
`13 get in there. We don't need to get into
`14 communications related to work product privilege.
`15 THE WITNESS: Okay.
`16 So what was the question?
`17 Q. What did Mr. Keyhani ask you to do for
`18 this case?
`19 A. I was asked to review some materials
`20 associated with the Blair patent issues and consider
`21 those and consider writing a declaration.
`22 Q. And what did you do after considering
`23 these materials?
`24 A. Pardon?
`25 Q. What did you do after considering these
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`Page 14
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. GHIAM
`2 materials?
`3 A. I wrote a declaration.
`4 Q. So you wrote the declaration yourself?
`5 A. I wrote the declaration with the
`6 assistance of Jennifer Meredith.
`7 Q. Did you come up with the first draft of
`8 the declaration?
`9 A. No.
`10 Q. Did you -- in the process of drafting the
`11 declaration, did you ever talk to Mr. Long?
`12 A. No.
`13 Q. Have you ever talked to Mr. Long?
`14 A. I think I answered that.
`15 Q. So you've never spoken to Mr. Long?
`16 A. No.
`17 Q. You don't know Mr. Long?
`18 A. I don't.
`19 Q. Thank you.
`20 I am trying to ascertain the scope of your
`21 expertise. So if you wouldn't mind, I'm going to ask
`22 you a few questions about the area of your expertise.
`23 If you would start yourself and describe to me your
`24 expertise.
`25 MR. KEYHANI: Objection.
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`Page 16
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. GHIAM
`2 Q. Can you please tell me more about the
`3 system-wide analysis that you perform, what it
`4 entails?
`5 A. Yes. It entails -- well, when the
`6 original system-wide analyses requirement was added by
`7 the FRA in the 1990s, there was a requirement to
`8 complete a preliminary fire safety analysis which took
`9 into account the operating environment of a rail
`10 passenger system and the history of the system and
`11 subjected that to an analysis -- essentially an
`12 incident style analysis, which was based on a military
`13 spec, which involves system safety and codifies system
`14 safety. And what the goal of those analyses was to
`15 identify unsafe conditions and provide documentation
`16 of that to the system operators.
`17 And under the FRA rule, there was some
`18 time period -- it was either a year or 18 months --
`19 for the identified shortcomings to be addressed and
`20 mitigated. And at some point following that there
`21 would be a final fire safety analysis.
`22 Q. For which operators did you perform these
`23 analysis?
`24 A. For Caltrain in the San Francisco Bay
`25 area, for Metra in Chicago, for Metrolink in Los
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`Page 15
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. GHIAM
`2 A. I'm a consulting fire scientist, and I
`3 work in a wide variety of areas, both forensic and
`4 what we call prospective. The forensic being
`5 retrospective. The consulting, other than for
`6 attorneys, is prospective work.
`7 I also do some work on review of
`8 environmental impact statements where fire safety are
`9 issues.
`10 Most relevant to this litigation it would
`11 seem is my work with rail fire safety and rail car
`12 design and qualification that started in 1979.
`13 Q. What type of expertise do you offer when
`14 you do rail fire safety work?
`15 A. I offer formal -- what was the word you
`16 asked me, what services? Was it services?
`17 Q. What sort of expertise do you offer?
`18 A. What expertise? I offer expertise in
`19 doing fire safety analyses both of rail passenger
`20 systems, which the Federal Railway Agency calls
`21 system-wide analyses; and I offer expertise with
`22 regards to individual cars, car designs and products
`23 used in cars that are subject to a fire safety
`24 analysis if they're used for cars regulated by the
`25 FRA.
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`Page 17
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. GHIAM
`2 Angeles. Those were complete studies.
`3 And I've conducted studies on individual
`4 components, like rail cars and locomotives and things
`5 like that, for car manufacturers, for operators as
`6 part, again, of the FRA system safety requirements.
`7 Q. You also mentioned that --
`8 A. Let me also add that that fire safety
`9 analysis work may involve an entire rail car design or
`10 locomotive design, or it may involve the evaluation of
`11 a cooking device going into a club car, a
`12 refrigerator, electronic components, things of that
`13 nature.
`14 Q. You mentioned that you have worked on car
`15 design projects?
`16 A. Yes.
`17 Q. Is that correct? What services have you
`18 offered when you worked and offered expertise for car
`19 design?
`20 A. Well, in particular, the FRA requirements
`21 and the FTA guidelines require that a fire safety
`22 analysis be conducted of the design. And that started
`23 with the FRA rules and became codified.
`24 And that means that I would look at a
`25 complete design of a vehicle, including the
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`Page 18
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. GHIAM
`2 combustible contents, do a survey of every single item
`3 that will burn, ensure that its fire performance
`4 properties are listed and summarized and submitted to
`5 the FRA, look at electrical systems for the presence
`6 of thermal protection and consumer protection, look at
`7 lockers, integrity of lockers where electrical gear is
`8 included to ensure that it meets codes and standards
`9 that are applicable.
`10 Q. You mentioned every item. Do you mean
`11 items inside rail cars or items outside of rail cars?
`12 A. Both.
`13 Q. Do you mean items within the passenger
`14 compartment of rail cars?
`15 A. Yes, absolutely.
`16 Q. Are you an expert in design of rail cars?
`17 MR. KEYHANI: Objection.
`18 You can answer.
`19 A. I'm sorry. Can you repeat it?
`20 Q. Are you an expert in design of rail cars?
`21 MR. KEYHANI: Objection.
`22 A. I'm an expert in the fire safety aspects
`23 of design of rail cars.
`24 Q. Have you designed any components for a
`25 rail car?
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`Page 19
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. GHIAM
`2 A. Have I designed any components? I have
`3 assisted with designs, working with engineering
`4 personnel who are actually building cars. That work
`5 typically takes the form of an engineer wanting to use
`6 a particular combustible product. It might be a
`7 rubber or plastic or a device. And then I provide
`8 assistance on how best to install that device in the
`9 rail car.
`10 Q. But you haven't yourself designed any
`11 components for a rail car?
`12 MR. KEYHANI: Objection.
`13 A. I've participated in a design of
`14 components.
`15 Q. But let's say if I asked you to design a
`16 specific component for me, you probably would need the
`17 assistance of other engineers to design the component;
`18 is that correct?
`19 A. Depends what the component was.
`20 Q. Let's say if I ask you to design a
`21 specific electrical component for a rail car, you
`22 would not be able to do it on your own; is that
`23 correct?
`24 MR. KEYHANI: Objection.
`25 A. I could see instances where I could design
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`Page 20
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. GHIAM
`2 a component to go into an assembly and other
`3 situations where I would work with other people.
`4 Q. So at best, you could design a component
`5 in an assembly, minor component of an assembly, but
`6 not the whole component itself?
`7 MR. KEYHANI: Objection.
`8 A. Might not be a minor component. Might be
`9 a headliner or a wall, which takes up many square feet
`10 and is subject to a fire hazard. Might be a type of
`11 glazing, whether it's Lexan or acrylic, which have
`12 dramatically different fire safety properties.
`13 Q. Are you an expert in design of passenger
`14 components in rail cars?
`15 MR. KEYHANI: Objection.
`16 A. One --
`17 Q. Excuse me. I misspoke. Let me say it
`18 again.
`19 Are you an expert in design of passenger
`20 compartments in a rail car?
`21 MR. KEYHANI: Objection.
`22 A. Again, I assist in the design of
`23 compartments for passengers in a rail car.
`24 Q. Are you an expert in design of LCD
`25 televisions?
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`Page 21
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. GHIAM
`2 MR. KEYHANI: Objection.
`3 A. I've never designed an LCD television.
`4 Q. Are you an expert in placement of LCD
`5 televisions in a passenger compartment of a subway
`6 car?
`7 MR. KEYHANI: Objection.
`8 A. Yes.
`9 Q. What is your basis for saying that?
`10 A. Well, if someone came to me and said, "I
`11 want to put an LCD monitor system in a subway car," I
`12 would provide information relating to how to install
`13 it from a fire-safe perspective.
`14 Q. But you would not be able to provide any
`15 information as for the mechanical aspects of any
`16 placement in a passenger compartment of a rail car?
`17 MR. KEYHANI: Objection.
`18 A. What do you mean by "mechanical"?
`19 Q. How it's mounted, where it's mounted, what
`20 structure is used to mount it, what design is better
`21 to withstand stress, et cetera.
`22 A. Well, where it's mounted I would certainly
`23 be able to provide an opinion. How it's mounted I
`24 would provide an opinion on its thermal performance.
`25 I think you're missing the point of a lot of what I
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`Page 22
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. GHIAM
`2 do.
`3 For instance, when you say do you design a
`4 compartment, passenger compartment, a plastics
`5 engineer or an industrial engineer will design the
`6 sidewalls and headwalls. But in order to provide a
`7 safe headliner or sideliner, they have to know that it
`8 is fire safe. And that's where my work comes in in
`9 the design process.
`10 Q. So your work comes in as offering
`11 expertise and opinions related to fire issues of
`12 designer components, and it's limited to fire advice;
`13 is that correct?
`14 MR. KEYHANI: Objection.
`15 A. More or less. And that will extend to
`16 efficacy of products, is this product a good product.
`17 Not just will it burn, but does it have a track record
`18 that would make it useful; is there anything in my
`19 30-plus years of experience that I know about a given
`20 product.
`21 Good example are seats that go into cars,
`22 which are very, very, very critical in terms of fire
`23 safety. And there are dozens of options for
`24 materials. And I've worked with the Department of
`25 Transportation, I ran the -- supervised the testing
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`Page 24
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. GHIAM
`2 you would end up with a different thermal inertia; and
`3 that's going to be part of the measure. And that's
`4 driven by density, which was obviously one of those
`5 factors.
`6 Q. Are you an expert in the heat emitted by
`7 televisions?
`8 MR. KEYHANI: Objection.
`9 A. Enough to understand how televisions
`10 should and should not be installed.
`11 Q. Can you elaborate on that?
`12 A. Sure. A television set as it comes
`13 through testing and qualification from third-party
`14 listing companies, like Underwriter Labs, off the
`15 shelf is studied for its heat production and heat
`16 dissipation.
`17 So you buy one, I buy one, Dariush buys
`18 one at Best Buy. We take it and put it in our home.
`19 If Dariush has a flat screen TV and he really likes
`20 it, but he wants to have a custom installation in his
`21 home and he surrounds it with wood on five sides, it's
`22 going to cut off the ventilation.
`23 Now, that TV was manufactured for ordinary
`24 consumer use, but that's a consumer use that's a
`25 little bit out of the norm. And if the TV enclosure
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`Page 23
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. GHIAM
`2 and qualification of the seats that are on the
`3 American Flyer trains for Amtrak. So that -- I think
`4 I'm probably rambling, but...
`5 Q. You mentioned efficacy of products beyond
`6 fire. I did not quite follow what expertise you offer
`7 beyond choice of materials, let's say, which would
`8 withstand fire. If you would elaborate on that.
`9 A. Well, if we have two products that are
`10 going to be used as a cushion -- and a cushion is an
`11 important thing; when you sit down, you want to be
`12 comfortable -- there are some products that may be
`13 fire retardant, but they'll only last a year. There
`14 are others that will last far longer. There are
`15 others that weigh two or three times as much as
`16 others. And that all enters into the design decisions
`17 for what's going to be used in the car.
`18 Q. And do you have an expertise when it comes
`19 to weight of the products used in the seats?
`20 A. Well, I'd frequently be asked to look at
`21 the density. When something burns, there's a basic
`22 physical property called the thermal inertia, which is
`23 a product of density, specific gravity and thermal
`24 conductivity.
`25 And if the densities are different, then
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`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. GHIAM
`2 has no ventilation and it's wood, more likely than not
`3 at some time there will be an overheating problem that
`4 could lead to a fire.
`5 Q. How does that make you an expert in the
`6 heat emitted by televisions?
`7 A. I simply know the power that goes in, and
`8 I know that they generate enough heat to cause fires.
`9 Q. How much heat is needed to cause fire by a
`10 television?
`11 A. A temperature rise sufficient to reach an
`12 ignition point of a nearby combustible material,
`13 whether it's a paper insulator or a plastic component
`14 or a wooden surround.
`15 Q. Are you an expert in the heat emitted by
`16 LCD televisions?
`17 MR. KEYHANI: Objection.
`18 A. I know that LCD televisions release heat.
`19 I don't know orders of magnitude.
`20 Q. Do you know if they release heat less than
`21 traditional televisions, which are cathode ray tube
`22 televisions?
`23 A. Yes, I would think so.
`24 Q. So LCD televisions release less heat than
`25 cathode ray televisions?
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`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. GHIAM
`2 A. Correct.
`3 (There was a discussion off the record.)
`4 Q. How much less heat is that?
`5 A. I haven't run the numbers. It would be a
`6 function of the power consumption of the units.
`7 Q. So if I say that you have some information
`8 or some knowledge when it comes to televisions in
`9 general related to heat emission, but you don't have
`10 enough information when it comes to LCD televisions in
`11 specific, is that correct?
`12 MR. KEYHANI: Objection.
`13 A. Yeah, I didn't understand your question.
`14 Q. You have some information when it comes to
`15 how much heat is released by televisions in general,
`16 but you do not have enough information when it comes
`17 to LCD televisions in specific?
`18 MR. KEYHANI: Objection.
`19 A. What do you mean "enough"? It's strange.
`20 Q. You would not be able to quantify how much
`21 heat is released by an LCD television; is that
`22 correct?
`23 MR. KEYHANI: Objection.
`24 A. No, I'd have no problem providing it. I
`25 can't sit here without having an LCD television and
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`Page 27
`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. GHIAM
`2 actually answering your question about that
`3 television.
`4 LCD televisions have been around for a
`5 long time. If we look at ones from 20 years ago and
`6 we look at ones today, I can guarantee you they have
`7 dramatically different properties.
`8 Q. Did you consider an LCD television from
`9 1997 and how much heat an LCD television from 1997
`10 releases for this project?
`11 MR. KEYHANI: Objection.
`12 A. In this case?
`13 Q. Yes.
`14 A. Yes.
`15 Q. How did you consider that?
`16 MR. KEYHANI: Objection. Form.
`17 A. I considered the --
`18 THE WITNESS: Can I answer?
`19 A. I considered the general functioning state
`20 of technology in the 1990s as opposed to decades later
`21 when they're much more sophisticated, much lighter
`22 weight and they consume less power.
`23 Q. Did you look at any information which
`24 could help you quantify how much heat an LCD
`25 television emitted in 1997?
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`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. GHIAM
`2 A. I did not.
`3 Q. So you would not be able to quantify how
`4 much heat an LCD television generated in 1997?
`5 MR. KEYHANI: Objection.
`6 A. Yes, if you provided me a television of
`7 that era and that was available, I could go into our
`8 laboratory and quantify that.
`9 Q. I understand. But you did not consider
`10 any information which would allow you to quantify how
`11 much heat an LCD television generated in 1997; is that
`12 correct?
`13 MR. KEYHANI: Objection.
`14 A. Your syntax is wrong. When you say -- can
`15 you repeat the question?
`16 (The reporter read the requested material.)
`17 MR. KEYHANI: Objection.
`18 A. I wasn't asked to create that -- do that
`19 hypothetical answer.
`20 Q. Fair enough.
`21 A. Or to answer that hypothetical question.
`22 It's well known that televisions produce heat, whether
`23 they're LCD, plasma, cathode ray tube, et cetera.
`24 Q. And you would not disagree that an LCD
`25 television generates less heat than a cathode ray tube
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`1 JOSEPH B. ZICHERMAN - BY MR. GHIAM
`2 television?
`3 A. I'm not sure of that. Because we would
`4 have to get specific.
`5 Q. Are you an expert in fire safety issues
`6 presented by televisions?
`7 A. Yes.
`8 Q. On what basis do you say that?
`9 MR. KEYHANI: Objection.
`10 A. Well, for 30 years I ran a company called
`11 Fire Cause Analysis, and part of our work at Fire
`12 Cause Analysis was to identify causes of fires. And
`13 frequently those causes were television sets, and
`14 those television sets were brought into our laboratory
`15 and forensically evaluated to determine whether indeed
`16 the television set caused the fire or the cord caused
`17 the fire. And in some cases that led to subrogation
`18 lawsuits against television manufacturers. And that
`19 took place on dozens of occasions in our laboratory.
`20 Q. Did you ever consider an LCD television as
`21 a cause of fire in any of the projects that you just
`22 named?
`23 A. I don't recall.
`24 Q. Do you consider yourself an expert when it
`25 comes to fire safety issues presented by LCD
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