`DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.
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`CISCO vs TQ DELTACISCO vs TQ DELTA
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`July 14, 2017July 14, 2017
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`1
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`·1· · · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·2· · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·3
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`·4· ·CISCO SYSTEMS, INC.,· · · · )
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
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`·6· · · · · · · · Petitioner,· · ) Case No.
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`·7· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·) IPR2016-01466
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`·8· · · · · · ·vs.· · · · · · · ·)
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·) U.S. Patent No.
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`10· ·TQ DELTA, LLC,· · · · · · · ) 8,611,404 B2
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`11· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
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`12· · · · · · · Patent Owner.· · )
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`13
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`14· · · · · · · The deposition of DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN,
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`15· ·Ph.D., called as a witness for examination, taken
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`16· ·before VICTORIA C. CHRISTIANSEN, a Certified
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`17· ·Shorthand Reporter of the State of Illinois, CSR
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`18· ·No. 84-3192, at Suite 3500, 500 West Madison
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`19· ·Street, Chicago, Illinois, on the 14th day of July,
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`20· ·A.D. 2017, at 9:13 a.m.
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`800.211.DEPO (3376)800.211.DEPO (3376)
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`Exhibit 1059, Page 1
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`July 14, 2017July 14, 2017
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`DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.
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`CISCO vs TQ DELTACISCO vs TQ DELTA
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`·1· ·PRESENT:
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`·2
`· · · · · ·HAYNES AND BOONE, LLP,
`·3· · · · ·(2323 Victory Avenue, Suite 700,
`· · · · · ·Dallas, Texas 75219,
`·4· · · · ·214-651-5533), by:
`· · · · · ·MR. JOHN RUSSELL EMERSON,
`·5· · · · ·russ.emerson@haynesboone.com,
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`·6· · · · · · · · · -and-
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`·7· · · · ·HAYNES AND BOONE, LLP,
`· · · · · ·(2505 North Plano Road, Suite 4000,
`·8· · · · ·Richardson, Texas 75082-4101,
`· · · · · ·972-739-8649), by:
`·9· · · · ·MR. MICHAEL S. PARSONS,
`· · · · · ·michael.parsons@haynesboone.com, and
`10· · · · ·MR. THEODORE M. FOSTER,
`· · · · · ·theo.foster@haynesboone.com,
`11
`· · · · · · · · appeared on behalf of the Petitioner;
`12
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`13· · · · ·McANDREWS, HELD & MALLOY, LTD.,
`· · · · · ·(500 West Madison Street, 34th Floor,
`14· · · · ·Chicago, Illinois 60661,
`· · · · · ·312-775-8000), by:
`15· · · · ·MR. CHRISTOPHER M. SCHARFF,
`· · · · · ·cscharff@mcandrews-ip.com, and
`16· · · · ·MR. RAJENDRA A. CHIPLUNKAR,
`· · · · · ·rchiplunkar@mcandrews-ip.com,
`17
`· · · · · · · · appeared on behalf of the Patent Owner.
`18
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`19
`· · ·ALSO PRESENT:
`20
`· · · · · ·SAYFE KIAEI, Ph.D.
`21· · · · · · Arizona State University.
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`22
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`23
`· · ·REPORTED BY:· VICTORIA C. CHRISTIANSEN, RPR, CRR,
`24· · · · · · · · ·Illinois CSR No. 84-3192.
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`DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.
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`CISCO vs TQ DELTACISCO vs TQ DELTA
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`·1· · · · · · · · · (WHEREUPON, the witness was duly
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`·2· · · · · · · · · sworn.)
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`·3· · · · · · · ·DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, Ph.D.,
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`·4· ·called as a witness herein, having been first duly
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`·5· ·sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
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`·6· · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION
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`·7· ·BY MR. EMERSON:
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`·8· · · · Q.· · Good morning, Dr. Chrissan.
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`·9· · · · A.· · Good morning.
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`10· · · · Q.· · So I'm going just go ahead and hand you
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`11· ·four exhibits that are -- have been previously
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`12· ·marked.· They are your declarations in the 1760 and
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`13· ·1466 IPRs plus the patents in those IPRs, the '268
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`14· ·and '404 patents, okay?
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`15· · · · · · · I'll hand those to you.· We'll be
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`16· ·talking about those throughout the day.
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`17· · · · MR. EMERSON:· Here you go, Chris.
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`18· ·BY MR. EMERSON:
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`19· · · · Q.· · Before we get started on those
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`20· ·particular documents, any reason why you can't
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`21· ·testify truthfully and accurately today?
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`22· · · · A.· · None that I know.
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`23· · · · Q.· · Okay.· When were you retained in this
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`24· ·case for these IPRs?
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`DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.
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`·1· · · · A.· · For these particular IPRs, I believe it
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`·2· ·was towards the beginning -- around the beginning
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`·3· ·of this year.
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`·4· · · · Q.· · It was in 2017?
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`·5· · · · A.· · Well, I have to ask a clarification
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`·6· ·question.· What exactly do you mean by I was
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`·7· ·retained?· I mean, I was told that I was going to
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`·8· ·be working on these particular IPRs?
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`·9· · · · Q.· · Sure.· When someone came to you and
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`10· ·said, "Can you serve as our expert witness in these
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`11· ·IPRs?"
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`12· · · · A.· · For these particular IPRs?
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`13· · · · Q.· · Yes, sir.
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`14· · · · A.· · Because I believe, as you know, I've
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`15· ·been involved in other IPRs.· One other on the '268
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`16· ·and two other on the '404.
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`17· · · · · · · So I don't remember the exact date for
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`18· ·these particular IPRs, but as I said, I believe it
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`19· ·was in 2017, earlier this year.
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`20· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And did you begin working on
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`21· ·those immediately after being retained?
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`22· · · · A.· · I don't remember the exact dates that I
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`23· ·was told, "You are --" I am going to be working on
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`24· ·these IPRs.· As I mentioned, I believe that around
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`DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.
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`CISCO vs TQ DELTACISCO vs TQ DELTA
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`July 14, 2017July 14, 2017
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`·1· ·that date I at least scanned some of the initial
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`·2· ·materials, but beyond that, the specific -- the
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`·3· ·specific progression of the work I don't remember
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`·4· ·exactly other than the fact that it certainly
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`·5· ·increased significantly near the due date of the
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`·6· ·declaration.
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`·7· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Would you turn to your
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`·8· ·declaration in the '404 IPR, which is IPR
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`·9· ·2016-04166?
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`10· · · · A.· · So you said Page?
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`11· · · · Q.· · Would you just get that -- that
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`12· ·declaration out?· Do you have it?
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`13· · · · A.· · Uh-huh.
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`14· · · · Q.· · All right.· And let's go to Page 47.
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`15· · · · A.· · Okay.
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`16· · · · Q.· · And specifically I'm looking at
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`17· ·Paragraph 87.
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`18· · · · · · · Do you see that?
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`19· · · · A.· · Yes.
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`20· · · · Q.· · All right.· And there you give us a
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`21· ·construction of the term "at least one parameter
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`22· ·associated with the full power mode operation."
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`23· · · · · · · Do you see that?
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`24· · · · A.· · Yes.
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`DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.
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`·1· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And in that dec- -- in that
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`·2· ·definition, you include the phrase "transmission
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`·3· ·and/or reception of data during normal operation,"
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`·4· ·correct?
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`·5· · · · A.· · Yes.
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`·6· · · · Q.· · All right.· We're agreed those words are
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`·7· ·not in the patent claims of the '404 patent,
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`·8· ·correct?
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`·9· · · · MR. SCHARFF:· Objection, form.
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`10· ·BY THE WITNESS:
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`11· · · · A.· · I believe the '404 had patent lists a
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`12· ·number of parameters that are clearly and
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`13· ·definitively associated with the transmission
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`14· ·and/or reception of data.· I can find that list.
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`15· · · · · · · One of skill in the art looks at
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`16· ·those -- looks at that list understands that those
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`17· ·are transmission and/or reception of data
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`18· ·parameters and clearly understands this
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`19· ·construction.
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`20· ·BY MR. EMERSON:
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`21· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Let me just clarify my question.
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`22· ·I'm talking specifically about the claim language
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`23· ·in the -- in the asserted or the challenged claims
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`24· ·of the '404 patent, so let me ask it again.
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`DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.
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`CISCO vs TQ DELTACISCO vs TQ DELTA
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`July 14, 2017July 14, 2017
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`·1· · · · A.· · If we're talking about literal claim
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`·2· ·language, let's at least do a review of the claims
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`·3· ·of the '404.
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`·4· · · · · · · So the asserted claims that you're
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`·5· ·referring to?
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`·6· · · · Q.· · Challenged claim I know 6.· In fact,
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`·7· ·we're talking about claim 6 right now, I believe.
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`·8· · · · A.· · Okay.
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`·9· · · · · · · · · (WHEREUPON, there was a short
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`10· · · · · · · · · ·interruption.)
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`11· ·BY THE WITNESS:
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`12· · · · A.· · Okay.· And then what was your question
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`13· ·again?
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`14· ·BY MR. EMERSON:
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`15· · · · Q.· · Claim 6 doesn't recite the phrase
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`16· ·"transmission and/or reception of data during
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`17· ·normal operation," right?
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`18· · · · A.· · As I said, one of skill in the art
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`19· ·reading the claims in light of the specification
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`20· ·would clearly come up with the construction that I
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`21· ·gave.
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`22· · · · Q.· · Do you not understand my question?
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`23· · · · A.· · I believe your question is is the
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`24· ·literal phrase "transmission and/or reception" in
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`DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.
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`CISCO vs TQ DELTACISCO vs TQ DELTA
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`·1· ·claim 6.
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`·2· · · · Q.· · Correct.
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`July 14, 2017July 14, 2017
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`8
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`·3· · · · A.· · And my answer is in reading every single
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`·4· ·word of claim 6, I think anyone reading every
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`·5· ·literal word of claim 6 would agree that those
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`·6· ·words are not literally there, but one of skill in
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`·7· ·the art understands that "full power mode operation
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`·8· ·parameters" in light of the spec and the list of
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`·9· ·parameters listed in the spec follows the
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`10· ·construction that I provided here.· I believe I
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`11· ·answered your question.
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`12· · · · Q.· · In Paragraph 88 of your declaration, you
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`13· ·cite to the '404 patent at columns -- column 6,
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`14· ·line 67 through column 7, line 9.
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`15· · · · · · · Do you see that?
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`16· · · · A.· · Yes.
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`17· · · · Q.· · All right.· And is this what you're
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`18· ·relying on for your construction of the term "at
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`19· ·least one parameter associated with the full power
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`20· ·mode operation"?
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`21· · · · A.· · This is one of the things that I rely
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`22· ·upon.· There are other things.· Even the claim
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`23· ·itself --
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`24· · · · Q.· · So you rely at least in part on this
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`DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.
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`·1· ·citation to column 6, line 7- -- 67 through column
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`·2· ·7, line 9 for your definition of that term,
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`·3· ·correct?
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`·4· · · · A.· · Let's refer to column 6, line 67 to make
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`·5· ·sure it's in context.
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`·6· · · · · · · · · (WHEREUPON, there was a short
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`·7· · · · · · · · · ·interruption.)
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`·8· ·BY THE WITNESS:
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`·9· · · · A.· · I rely at least in part on the cited
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`10· ·phrase, and it's cited as such.
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`11· ·BY MR. EMERSON:
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`12· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Anything else that you rely on
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`13· ·for that definition?
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`14· · · · · · · · · (WHEREUPON, there was a short
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`15· · · · · · · · · ·interruption.)
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`16· ·BY THE WITNESS:
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`17· · · · A.· · In the patent -- I don't know if you
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`18· ·want me to take the time to read the entire patent
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`19· ·or scan the entire patent.· I wanted to find at
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`20· ·least one additional example.· Plus we have the
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`21· ·claim itself that I'll get to.
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`22· · · · · · · So at column 5, it says, "Finally, a
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`23· ·State Memory connected to the controller 32 records
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`24· ·the state of the transceiver --"
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`DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.
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`CISCO vs TQ DELTACISCO vs TQ DELTA
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`·1· ·BY MR. EMERSON:
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`July 14, 2017July 14, 2017
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`10
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`·2· · · · Q.· · You're going to need to give us the line
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`·3· ·number.
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`·4· · · · A.· · Oh, column 5, line 12.
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`·5· · · · Q.· · Okay.
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`·6· · · · A.· · "Thus, the counter 34 typically
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`·7· ·maintains mod- --" actually, that's -- it's line
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`·8· ·13.· "Finally, a State Memory connected to the
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`·9· ·controller records the state of the transceiver for
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`10· ·reasons discussed more fully below."
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`11· · · · · · · That's one cite.· That indicates to me
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`12· ·that the state of the transceiver, which is the
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`13· ·parameters associated with transmission and
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`14· ·reception, as discussed within the patent.
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`15· · · · · · · Another example is the claim itself --
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`16· · · · Q.· · Before you go on to your next example,
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`17· ·what you just pointed us to you did not cite in
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`18· ·your declaration, correct?
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`19· · · · A.· · I would have to read my whole
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`20· ·declaration.· I'll take your word that I did not
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`21· ·cite it.· What I cited to in my declaration was
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`22· ·what I felt was sufficient to justify my opinion in
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`23· ·light of my skill in the art and how one of skill
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`24· ·in the art would interpret these patents.
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`DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.
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`·1· · · · · · · I could find more -- I'm pretty sure if
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`·2· ·I read through this patent, I'll find more examples
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`·3· ·and lines that lead one of skill in the art to
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`·4· ·understand that full mode transmission parameters
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`·5· ·are as I explain them.· I think that the relevant
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`·6· ·DSL specifications, if you want me to look through
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`·7· ·those, would say the same thing, but let me --
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`·8· · · · Q.· · I'll ask you to if I want you to.
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`·9· · · · A.· · So claim 6 says -- gives examples of --
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`10· ·let's see.· Yeah, claim 6 says, "wherein the at
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`11· ·least one parameter comprises at least one of a
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`12· ·fine gain parameter and a bit allocation
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`13· ·parameter."· That's another, you know, indication
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`14· ·that guides my opinion.
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`15· · · · Q.· · So then are you relying on that claim
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`16· ·language to define the "at least one parameter"
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`17· ·limitation?
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`18· · · · MR. SCHARFF:· Objection, form.
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`19· ·BY MR. EMERSON:
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`20· · · · Q.· · Let me restate it.
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`21· · · · · · · Are you relying on that wherein clause
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`22· ·to define the term "at least one parameter
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`23· ·associated with the full power mode operation"?
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`24· · · · A.· · I am not using that one clause to define
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`DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.
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`·1· ·the parameter.· The parameter is -- as I construe
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`·2· ·the parameter, the parameter is broader than only
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`·3· ·the fine gain and bit parameter, but it includes
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`·4· ·those.
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`·5· · · · · · · I think your -- your question was, you
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`·6· ·know, what formulated -- what formulated or -- your
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`·7· ·construction of at least one parameter associated
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`·8· ·with the full power mode operation to be a
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`·9· ·parameter associated with the transmission and/or
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`10· ·reception of data during normal operation, and I
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`11· ·gave you an example from claim 6.
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`12· · · · Q.· · Are there parameters that are associated
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`13· ·with full power mode that are not associated with
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`14· ·the transmission or reception of data?
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`15· · · · · · · · · (WHEREUPON, there was a short
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`16· · · · · · · · · ·interruption.)
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`17· ·BY THE WITNESS:
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`18· · · · A.· · Could you ask your question again?
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`19· ·BY MR. EMERSON:
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`20· · · · Q.· · Are there parameters that are associated
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`21· ·with full power mode that are not associated with
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`22· ·the transmission or reception of data?
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`23· · · · A.· · I believe that one of skill in the art
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`24· ·in reading the patents and in understanding the
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`·1· ·specifications and -- and in understanding the DSL
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`·2· ·specifications would interpret "parameters
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`·3· ·associated with full power mode operation" to be
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`·4· ·parameters associated with the transmission and
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`·5· ·reception of data.
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`·6· · · · Q.· · Are there parameters that are associated
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`·7· ·with full power mode that are not associated with
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`·8· ·the transmission or reception of data?
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`·9· · · · MR. SCHARFF:· Objection, asked and answered.
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`10· ·BY THE WITNESS:
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`11· · · · A.· · Yeah, I believe I asked and answered
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`12· ·that.
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`13· · · · · · · One would -- one of skill in the art
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`14· ·understanding and reading the patents,
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`15· ·understanding and reading the DSL specifications
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`16· ·and the DSL art would interpret the set of
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`17· ·parameters associated with the full power mode
`
`18· ·operation with parameters associated with the
`
`19· ·transmission and/or reception of data during normal
`
`20· ·operation.
`
`21· ·BY MR. EMERSON:
`
`22· · · · Q.· · At the top of column 7, you -- actually,
`
`23· ·you can stay on Paragraph 88 of your declaration,
`
`24· ·if you'd like.· You recite or quote language from
`
`
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`DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.
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`July 14, 2017July 14, 2017
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`
`·1· ·the top of par- -- of line -- sorry, the top of
`
`·2· ·column 7 of the '404 patent where there is a list
`
`·3· ·of parameters.
`
`·4· · · · · · · Do you see that?
`
`·5· · · · A.· · Yes.· Where it says, "equalizer
`
`·6· ·coefficients, echo-canceller coefficients,"
`
`·7· ·et cetera?
`
`·8· · · · Q.· · Right.· Do you see where the -- where
`
`·9· ·the '404 patent states that "The state of the
`
`10· ·transceivers preferably includes," and then it goes
`
`11· ·on to give this list?
`
`12· · · · A.· · Okay.
`
`13· · · · Q.· · Do you see that?
`
`14· · · · A.· · I see that.
`
`15· · · · Q.· · All right.· What is the -- what does the
`
`16· ·word "preferably" mean in this context?
`
`17· · · · A.· · My understanding reading this as one of
`
`18· ·skill in the art interprets this as a preferred
`
`19· ·embodiment.
`
`20· · · · · · · That said, one of skill in the art
`
`21· ·understanding the DSL technology of the era of this
`
`22· ·patent plus working in DSL modems and reading the
`
`23· ·DSL spec would understand that every one of these
`
`24· ·parameters listed is part of and included in the
`
`
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`DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.
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`CISCO vs TQ DELTACISCO vs TQ DELTA
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`July 14, 2017July 14, 2017
`
`15
`
`·1· ·state of a CO and CBE transceiver.
`
`·2· · · · Q.· · So everything in that list is
`
`·3· ·necessarily part of the transceiver?
`
`·4· · · · MR. SCHARFF:· Objection, form.
`
`·5· ·BY MR. EMERSON:
`
`·6· · · · Q.· · I'm sorry.· Let me restate that.
`
`·7· · · · · · · Everything in that list is a parameter
`
`·8· ·that is necessarily part of and included in the
`
`·9· ·state of the transceivers?
`
`10· · · · A.· · I can say I have never seen or known of
`
`11· ·a DSL -- a multicarrier DSL transceiver that didn't
`
`12· ·maintain these things.· Under certain circumstances
`
`13· ·it is possible that the time domain equalizer is
`
`14· ·unneeded, it's also possible that the
`
`15· ·echo-canceller is unneeded, but even then those
`
`16· ·blocks are built into the design and there is some
`
`17· ·knowledge at least that they're disabled.
`
`18· · · · Q.· · Is it possible that there could be other
`
`19· ·parameters not listed in this section of column 7
`
`20· ·that you recite in Paragraph 88 of your declaration
`
`21· ·that could be used for the same purposes?
`
`22· · · · A.· · Could you clarify what you mean by "for
`
`23· ·the same purposes"?
`
`24· · · · MR. SCHARFF:· Objection, foundation.
`
`
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`DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.
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`CISCO vs TQ DELTACISCO vs TQ DELTA
`
`·1· ·BY MR. EMERSON:
`
`July 14, 2017July 14, 2017
`
`16
`
`·2· · · · Q.· · You state that -- in your declaration,
`
`·3· ·you state that, "The 404 patent lists the
`
`·4· ·parameters included in its state memory that are
`
`·5· ·stored in the low power mode."
`
`·6· · · · · · · Do you see that?· Second sentence of
`
`·7· ·Paragraph 88.
`
`·8· · · · A.· · Okay.· I see that.
`
`·9· · · · Q.· · Okay.· And then -- then you quote the
`
`10· ·'404 patent, and that enumerates a list of
`
`11· ·parameters, correct?
`
`12· · · · A.· · Right.
`
`13· · · · Q.· · Are there any other parameters that
`
`14· ·could be included in transceiver state memory
`
`15· ·stored in a low power mode?
`
`16· · · · A.· · That's a question I would have to
`
`17· ·analyze on a case-by-case basis outside of this
`
`18· ·discussion today.
`
`19· · · · Q.· · So you're not prepared to say that that
`
`20· ·is an exhaustive list?
`
`21· · · · A.· · As I said, it's implementation
`
`22· ·dependent.· It's possible for a specific
`
`23· ·implementation, but that is not an exhaustive list.
`
`24· · · · Q.· · Is it possible for a specific
`
`
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`DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.
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`CISCO vs TQ DELTACISCO vs TQ DELTA
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`July 14, 2017July 14, 2017
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`17
`
`·1· ·implementation to use fewer than all of the
`
`·2· ·parameters that you enumerate in Paragraph 88?
`
`·3· · · · A.· · Okay.· Could I get your question again?
`
`·4· · · · Q.· · Is it possible for a specific
`
`·5· ·implementation to use fewer than all of the
`
`·6· ·parameters that you enumerate in Paragraph 88?
`
`·7· · · · A.· · Could you further clarify your question?
`
`·8· ·For what purpose?
`
`·9· · · · Q.· · You said in response to my earlier
`
`10· ·question that -- I asked you, "So you're not
`
`11· ·prepared to say that that is an exhaustive list?"
`
`12· ·You said, "As I said, it's implementation
`
`13· ·dependent.· It's possible for specific
`
`14· ·implementation, but that is not an exhaustive
`
`15· ·list," okay?
`
`16· · · · · · · So you used the term "specific
`
`17· ·implementation," so according to your definition of
`
`18· ·the phrase "specific implementation," is it
`
`19· ·possible to use fewer than all the parameters
`
`20· ·listed in Paragraph 88?
`
`21· · · · A.· · Based on my knowledge of DSL systems, a
`
`22· ·system implementing the low power mode of the '404
`
`23· ·would need to store all the parameters listed.
`
`24· · · · Q.· · A system implementing a low power mode
`
`
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`DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.
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`CISCO vs TQ DELTACISCO vs TQ DELTA
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`July 14, 2017July 14, 2017
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`18
`
`·1· ·of the '404 could also store additional parameters,
`
`·2· ·correct?
`
`·3· · · · A.· · I think that's been asked and answered.
`
`·4· ·I said for every particular implementation, that
`
`·5· ·might not be an exhaustive list.
`
`·6· · · · Q.· · Can you think of any other items that
`
`·7· ·might fit on that list?
`
`·8· · · · A.· · Well, as I said and answered -- I didn't
`
`·9· ·remember the words after that.· I would need to
`
`10· ·analyze that separately.
`
`11· · · · Q.· · All right.· Let's turn to Paragraph 94
`
`12· ·of your '404 declaration, and the third sentence --
`
`13· ·I'll direct your attention to the third sentence,
`
`14· ·which begins, "Specifically."
`
`15· · · · A.· · Yes.
`
`16· · · · Q.· · "Specifically, fine gain and bit
`
`17· ·allocation parameters are transmission parameters
`
`18· ·that are determined using the loop
`
`19· ·characteristics."
`
`20· · · · A.· · Yes.
`
`21· · · · MR. SCHARFF:· Objection, form.· I just want to
`
`22· ·clarify that wasn't the whole sentence.
`
`23· ·BY MR. EMERSON:
`
`24· · · · Q.· · Then you give some examples -- well,
`
`
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`DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.
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`CISCO vs TQ DELTACISCO vs TQ DELTA
`
`·1· ·some -- let me back up.
`
`July 14, 2017July 14, 2017
`
`19
`
`·2· · · · · · · You say, "fine gain and bit allocation
`
`·3· ·parameters are transmission parameters that are
`
`·4· ·determined using the loop characteristics."
`
`·5· · · · · · · What do you mean by "the loop
`
`·6· ·characteristics"?
`
`·7· · · · A.· · I believe that that is spelled out in my
`
`·8· ·declaration as characteristics of the physical
`
`·9· ·loop, and the example given in at least the Bowie
`
`10· ·patent is attenuation.· I can find that specific
`
`11· ·part of my declaration.· It shouldn't take very
`
`12· ·long.
`
`13· · · · Q.· · Let me direct your attention to
`
`14· ·Paragraph 94 of your declaration.
`
`15· · · · A.· · Okay.
`
`16· · · · Q.· · Thank you.
`
`17· · · · A.· · Okay.· Right, as I said, "intrinsic
`
`18· ·attributes of a loop."
`
`19· · · · Q.· · And those include loop attenuation, loop
`
`20· ·background noise, loop link, wire gauge, wire
`
`21· ·composition, resistance, inductance, capacitance,
`
`22· ·et cetera, right?
`
`23· · · · A.· · Yes.· Those are intrinsic attributes of
`
`24· ·the subscriber line itself.
`
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`DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.
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`CISCO vs TQ DELTACISCO vs TQ DELTA
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`July 14, 2017July 14, 2017
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`20
`
`·1· · · · Q.· · And the other things that you list in
`
`·2· ·your -- in the third sentence of Paragraph 94 are
`
`·3· ·power and spectral constraints, device
`
`·4· ·configuration, transmission and reception data
`
`·5· ·rates and device performance.
`
`·6· · · · · · · Do you see those?
`
`·7· · · · A.· · Yes.
`
`·8· · · · Q.· · And those are additional parameters that
`
`·9· ·are used to determine fine gain and bit allocation
`
`10· ·parameters, is that correct?
`
`11· · · · A.· · The sentence states, "fine gain and bit
`
`12· ·allocation parameters are transmission parameters
`
`13· ·that are determined using loop characteristics,
`
`14· ·power and spectral constraints of the communication
`
`15· ·protocol, device configuration, transmission and
`
`16· ·reception data rates and device performance."
`
`17· · · · Q.· · And I just want to make sure we're
`
`18· ·clear.
`
`19· · · · · · · Power and spectral constraints, device
`
`20· ·configuration, transmission reception data rates
`
`21· ·and device performance, those are not included in
`
`22· ·loop characteristics, right?
`
`23· · · · A.· · In my opinion, those are -- those things
`
`24· ·that you listed are not part of -- intrinsic
`
`
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`DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.
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`CISCO vs TQ DELTACISCO vs TQ DELTA
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`July 14, 2017July 14, 2017
`
`21
`
`·1· ·characteristics of the loop.· They are part of the
`
`·2· ·modems and the protocol.
`
`·3· · · · Q.· · What kinds of things can change the
`
`·4· ·intrinsic characteristics of the loop?
`
`·5· · · · MR. SCHARFF:· Objection, form.
`
`·6· ·BY THE WITNESS:
`
`·7· · · · A.· · Well, I list loop length, wire gauge,
`
`·8· ·wire composition, resistance, conductance,
`
`·9· ·capacitance, et cetera.· I believe one of the
`
`10· ·patent or prior art documents mentions temperature.
`
`11· ·BY MR. EMERSON:
`
`12· · · · Q.· · So temperature would be something that
`
`13· ·could affect the intrinsic attributes of the loop?
`
`14· · · · A.· · I believe one of skill in the art
`
`15· ·accepts that temperature could affect the intrinsic
`
`16· ·attributes of a loop.
`
`17· · · · Q.· · Temperature could affect things like
`
`18· ·resistance, conductance and capacitance, right?
`
`19· · · · A.· · I would want to under- -- I would want
`
`20· ·to analyze the particular loop.· I believe one of
`
`21· ·skill in the art understands that temperature could
`
`22· ·potentially affect at least one of those things.
`
`23· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Anything other than temperature
`
`24· ·that might go on this list of things that could
`
`
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`DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.
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`CISCO vs TQ DELTACISCO vs TQ DELTA
`
`July 14, 2017July 14, 2017
`
`22
`
`·1· ·affect loop characteristics?
`
`·2· · · · A.· · I would want to review and analyze that
`
`·3· ·outside of our discussion right here.
`
`·4· · · · Q.· · You can't give me anything else right
`
`·5· ·now?· You can't think of anything else?
`
`·6· · · · A.· · As I said, in order to give a complete
`
`·7· ·answer, I would want to analyze this separately. I
`
`·8· ·do mention that loop background noise is an
`
`·9· ·attribute of the loop, and there are different
`
`10· ·things that could affect loop background noise such
`
`11· ·as noise -- a variety of noise sources.
`
`12· · · · Q.· · Okay.· Anything else that would go on
`
`13· ·that list?
`
`14· · · · A.· · As I said, I would want to analyze that
`
`15· ·separately.· I gave you one example.
`
`16· · · · Q.· · Are loop characteristics associated with
`
`17· ·the transmission or reception of data?
`
`18· · · · A.· · I don't think so.
`
`19· · · · Q.· · Why not?
`
`20· · · · A.· · I say that -- let me get the exact
`
`21· ·wording.
`
`22· · · · · · · · · (WHEREUPON, there was a short
`
`23· · · · · · · · · ·interruption.)
`
`24· ·BY THE WITNESS:
`
`
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`DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.
`
`CISCO vs TQ DELTACISCO vs TQ DELTA
`
`July 14, 2017July 14, 2017
`
`23
`
`·1· · · · A.· · I found the word I was looking for, and
`
`·2· ·I --
`
`·3· ·BY MR. EMERSON:
`
`·4· · · · Q.· · Great.
`
`·5· · · · A.· · -- had it in my head.
`
`·6· · · · · · · "The transmission parameters are
`
`·7· ·based --"
`
`·8· · · · Q.· · I'm sorry.· Would you tell us where
`
`·9· ·you're reading from, please?
`
`10· · · · A.· · I'm reading from Page 38 of my
`
`11· ·declaration.
`
`12· · · · Q.· · Okay.
`
`13· · · · A.· · So the transmission parameters are based
`
`14· ·in part on loop characteristics.· One of skill in
`
`15· ·the art has that interpretation.
`
`16· · · · Q.· · Has what interpretation?· I'm sorry.
`
`17· · · · A.· · That one of skill in the art understands
`
`18· ·that transmission parameters are based in part on
`
`19· ·loop characteristics.
`
`20· · · · Q.· · The transmission parameters are based in
`
`21· ·part from loop characteristics?
`
`22· · · · A.· · That's right.· That's my opinion.
`
`23· ·That's written.
`
`24· · · · Q.· · I'm sorry.· Which -- which paragraph are
`
`
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`DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.
`
`CISCO vs TQ DELTACISCO vs TQ DELTA
`
`·1· ·you looking at?
`
`·2· · · · A.· · 68.
`
`July 14, 2017July 14, 2017
`
`24
`
`·3· · · · Q.· · So transmission parameters are derived
`
`·4· ·from loop characteristics?
`
`·5· · · · MR. SCHARFF:· Objection, form, asked and
`
`·6· ·answered.
`
`·7· ·BY THE WITNESS:
`
`·8· · · · A.· · Yeah, that's -- that's been asked and
`
`·9· ·answered.
`
`10· ·BY MR. EMERSON:
`
`11· · · · Q.· · So that's a yes?
`
`12· · · · MR. SCHARFF:· Objection, asked and answered.
`
`13· ·BY THE WITNESS:
`
`14· · · · A.· · The -- my -- I will also refer you to
`
`15· ·52.
`
`16· ·BY MR. EMERSON:
`
`17· · · · Q.· · To what?· Paragraph 52 or Page 52?
`
`18· · · · A.· · Page 52 of my declaration, Paragraph 94.
`
`19· · · · Q.· · Yeah.
`
`20· · · · A.· · It says that "fine and bit allocation
`
`21· ·parameters are transmission parameters that are
`
`22· ·determined using loop characteristics."
`
`23· · · · Q.· · Okay.· So you're distinguishing between
`
`24· ·loop characteristics and transmission parameters?
`
`
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`Exhibit 1059, Page 24
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`DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.DOUGLAS A. CHRISSAN, PH.D.
`
`CISCO vs TQ DELTACISCO vs TQ DELTA
`
`July 14, 2017July 14, 2017
`
`25
`
`·1· · · · A.· · I am distinguishing between loop
`
`·2· ·characteristics and transmission parameters.
`
`·3· · · · Q.· · Are loop characteristics parameters or
`
`·4· ·attributes that are associated with full power mode
`
`·5· ·operation?
`
`·6· · · · A.· · No.· I consider loop characteristics to
`
`·7· ·be intrinsic parameters of the line.
`
`·8· · · · Q.· · Loop characteristics can change over
`
`·9· ·time, correct?
`
`10· · · · A.· · We -- that's been asked and answered.
`
`11· · · · Q.· · Loop characteristics can change over
`
`12· ·time, correct?
`
`13· · · · A.· · It's in the record.
`
`14· · · · Q.· · I don't recall your answer.· Can loop
`
`15· ·characteristics change over time?
`
`16· · · · MR. SCHARFF:· Objection, argumentative.
`
`17· ·BY THE WITNESS:
`
`18· · · · A.· · While I'm quite certain that we
`
`19· ·discussed that at length, I'll answer again.
`
`20· ·BY MR. EMERSON:
`
`21· · · · Q.· · Great.
`
`22· · · · A.· ·
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