Page 1
`·1· · · IN THE UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`· · · · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`·2
`·3· YMAX CORPORATION,· · · · · ·*
`· · · · · · ·Petitioner,· · · · *
`·4· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · *· · Case No. IPR2016-01260
`· · VS.· · · · · · · · · · · · ·*
`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · *· · Case No. IPR2016-01258
`· · FOCAL IP, LLC,· · · · · · · *
`·6· · · · · ·Patent owner.· · · *
`·7
`·8
`·9
`10· ********************************************************
`11
`12· · · · · · ·ORAL DEPOSITION OF REGIS "BUD" BATES, JR.
`13
`14· ********************************************************
`15
`16
`17· · · ·ANSWERS AND DEPOSITION OF REGIS "BUD" BATES, JR.,
`18· produced as a witness at the instance of the Petitioner,
`19· taken in the above-styled and numbered cause on the 9th
`20· day of August, 2017, A.D., beginning at 9:42 a.m.,
`21· before Rachel J. Payne, a Certified Shorthand Reporter
`22· in and for the State of Texas, in the offices of Nelson
`23· Bumgardner, located at 3131 7th Street, Suite 300, Fort
`24· Worth, Texas, in accordance with the Rules of Civil
`25· Procedure and the agreement hereinafter set forth.
`
`Page 2
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·A P P E A R A N C E S
`·2
`·3· FOR THE PETITIONER:
`·4· · · ·Mr. Frank Fabiani
`· · · · ·Mr. Hassan Albakri
`·5· · · ·BRYAN CAVE, LLP
`· · · · ·1290 Avenue of the Americas
`·6· · · ·New York, New York 10104
`· · · · ·212.541.2000
`·7· · · ·frank.fabiani@bryancave.com
`·8
`·9
`· · FOR THE PATENT OWNER:
`10
`· · · · ·Mr. John Murphy
`11· · · ·NELSON BUMGARDNER
`· · · · ·3131 West 7th Street, Suite 300
`12· · · ·Fort Worth, Texas 76107
`· · · · ·817.377.9111
`13· · · ·murphy@nelbum.com
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
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`Page 3
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·I N D E X
`·2· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
`·3· Appearances . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .· · 2
`·4· Exhibit Index . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .· · 3
`·5· REGIS "BUD" BATES, JR.
`·6· · · ·Examination by Mr. Frank Fabiani . . . . . . .· · 4
`·7· Signature and Corrections . . . . . . . . . . . . .· ·63
`·8· Reporter's Certificate. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .· ·64
`·9
`10· · · · · · · · · · · ·E X H I B I T S
`11· ·(Previously marked exhibits, but were referred to and
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · attached.)
`12
`· · NO.· · · ·DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
`13
`· · 1001· · · Wood, et al Patent No. US 7,764,777 B2· · · 39
`14
`· · 1030· · · Lamb, et al Patent No. US 6,747,970 B1· · · ·7
`15
`· · 1031· · · Allen, et al Patent No. US 6,169,735 B1· · ·26
`16
`· · 2062-1· · Clean and redlined versions of the
`17· · · · · · Proposed Substitute Claims· · · · · · · · · 44
`18· 2062-2· · Clean and redlined versions of the
`· · · · · · · Proposed Substitute Claims· · · · · · · · · 54
`19
`· · 2070-1· · Declaration of Regis J. "Bud" Bates
`20· · · · · · In Support of Patent Owner's Reply in
`· · · · · · · Support of Motion to Amend· · · · · · · · · 10
`21
`· · 2070-2· · Declaration of Regis J. "Bud" Bates in
`22· · · · · · Support of Patent Owner's Reply in Support
`· · · · · · · Of Motion to Amend, Case IPR2016-01258· · · 12
`23
`24
`25
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`Page 4
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·REGIS "BUD" BATES, JR.,
`·2· having been first duly cautioned and sworn to testify
`·3· the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth,
`·4· testified on his oath as follows:
`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION
`·6· BY MR. FABIANI:
`·7· · · ·Q.· Good morning.
`·8· · · ·A.· Good morning.
`·9· · · ·Q.· Can you please state your name and address for
`10· the record, please.
`11· · · ·A.· Sure.· My name is Regis Jerome Bates, Jr.;
`12· however, I go by "Bud."
`13· · · · · · · · My address is 3413 Ponderosa Loop in Heber,
`14· H-E-B-E-R, Arizona 85928.
`15· · · ·Q.· So I know you have been deposed a number of
`16· times already in these -- in other related IPR
`17· proceedings, so presumably you are familiar with the
`18· process, but I just want to go over a couple of ground
`19· rules.
`20· · · ·A.· Okay.
`21· · · ·Q.· If you don't understand a question I'm asking
`22· you, just let me know and I'll do the best I can to
`23· rephrase it.
`24· · · ·A.· Okay.
`25· · · ·Q.· I might misstate some terms during the day, and
`
`000001
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`YMAX EXHIBIT 1048
`YMAX CORP. V. FOCAL IP
`IPR2016-01260
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`

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`Page 5
`·1· I just appreciate your patience, and you can always
`·2· point it out and I'll try to, you know, rephrase the
`·3· question or fix it.
`·4· · · ·A.· All right.
`·5· · · ·Q.· That being said, you must provide an answer to
`·6· each question.· An attorney may object, but you still
`·7· need to answer the question unless you're explicitly
`·8· instructed not to answer.
`·9· · · ·A.· Okay.
`10· · · ·Q.· If you need a break at any time, let me know
`11· and we'll take a break.· I'd just ask that you answer
`12· any pending question.
`13· · · ·A.· Understood.
`14· · · ·Q.· And please state your answer for the court
`15· reporter and don't use head nods or other nonverbal
`16· forms of communication.
`17· · · ·A.· I will do my best.
`18· · · ·Q.· Is there any reason you are not able to provide
`19· complete and truthful testimony today?
`20· · · ·A.· None at all.
`21· · · ·Q.· Do you understand that you are here to testify
`22· with respect to your declarations in support of patent
`23· owner's replies to petitioner's oppositions to the
`24· motions to amend in IPR numbers 2016-01258 and IPR
`25· 2016-01260?
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`Page 6
`
`·1· · · ·A.· Yes.
`·2· · · ·Q.· Is your understanding that your testimony and
`·3· opinions in these two declarations relate to certain
`·4· substitute claims that PO has proposed -- patent owner
`·5· has proposed for US patent numbers 7764777 and 8457113?
`·6· · · ·A.· Yes.
`·7· · · ·Q.· I may refer to these two patents as the '777
`·8· and '113 patents if that's okay with you.
`·9· · · ·A.· I do the same thing.
`10· · · ·Q.· So, Mr. Bates, did you write these
`11· declarations?
`12· · · ·A.· I did.
`13· · · ·Q.· Were there any sections you didn't write?
`14· · · ·A.· There were some pieces in there that the
`15· attorneys kind of fluffed up for me because of the --
`16· I'm not a lawyer.· So there are sections regarding
`17· obviousness and things of that nature where I had help
`18· with that.
`19· · · ·Q.· Okay.· And can you just give me a feel for the
`20· overall process of, you know, the back and forth or did
`21· you provide a first draft and then they edited it or did
`22· you -- did they provide you a draft?
`23· · · ·A.· Typically what I did is I read the opposition
`24· and the -- the references that you used.· I prepared a
`25· document that was a -- I don't want to call it a draft,
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`Page 7
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`·1· it was a work in progress because they build off of that
`·2· as we go along.· And then normally I don't do a lot of
`·3· the legal stuff up front.· I do put my own bio or CV in
`·4· there and things of that nature, but then as it's done,
`·5· the attorneys help me fine tune it to make sure I'm
`·6· staying within the guidelines of what I can do.
`·7· · · ·Q.· And I'm -- how much time would you say you
`·8· spent overall on this declaration or these declarations?
`·9· · · ·A.· With the reading of all the references, with
`10· the writing of the declarations and so on, there's
`11· probably about 70-plus hours.
`12· · · ·Q.· Just on these reply declarations?
`13· · · ·A.· Yeah.· A lot of documents to read.
`14· · · ·Q.· And so you read each and every reference in
`15· full?
`16· · · ·A.· No.· I read specific cases or specific parts of
`17· them, yeah.· I tried not to read them in full if it --
`18· if it only cited to a specific quote.
`19· · · ·Q.· Did you review anything else that was not
`20· already in the record?
`21· · · ·A.· Not to my knowledge.
`22· · · ·Q.· So, Mr. Bates, I'm handing you Exhibit
`23· YMAX-1030, which was previously marked in IPR 2016-01258
`24· and it's U.S. Patent Number 6747970, and I think we can
`25· call this the Lamb reference; is that okay?
`
`Page 8
`
`·1· · · ·A.· Okay.· Does she need to mark it?
`·2· · · ·Q.· I think it's already marked.
`·3· · · · · · · · MR. FABIANI:· Do you need this?
`·4· · · · · · · · THE REPORTER:· If it's already marked, I
`·5· don't need it.
`·6· · · · · · · · MR. MURPHY:· These things, if they're
`·7· already in the record, I don't think there's a reason to
`·8· mark them.
`·9· · · · · · · · MR. FABIANI:· So we'll just go ahead and
`10· hand them the documents directly.
`11· · · · · · · · MR. MURPHY:· As long as you identify what
`12· it is.
`13· · · · · · · · MR. FABIANI:· Right.
`14· · · · · · · · MR. MURPHY:· Yeah.· I don't think we need
`15· to do anything other than that.
`16· · · ·Q.· (BY MR. FABIANI)· So have you seen this
`17· document before?
`18· · · ·A.· I have.
`19· · · ·Q.· And what is it exactly?
`20· · · ·A.· Could you repeat that?
`21· · · ·Q.· What is the document?
`22· · · ·A.· This is U.S. Patent 6747970B1, which is the
`23· Lamb, et al, patent.
`24· · · ·Q.· Does Lamb ever use the term edge switch?
`25· · · ·A.· The -- do you suppose I could have a copy of my
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`Page 9
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`·1· declaration?· I'd like to --
`·2· · · ·Q.· I think we can just stick with Lamb right now
`·3· just to see if it -- the question is about Lamb, so I
`·4· think we can just --
`·5· · · · · · · · MR. MURPHY:· This is not a memory test.
`·6· This is like a 200-page document, 69 pages, you're
`·7· asking him if this one word is used, you can let him
`·8· look at his declaration.
`·9· · · ·Q.· Okay.· So you're saying you can't recall right
`10· now if Lamb uses the term edge switch?
`11· · · ·A.· Off the top of my head, I don't believe so.
`12· · · ·Q.· Do you think you'd be able to find it if I gave
`13· you a chance?
`14· · · ·A.· Would you like me to go through it and see if I
`15· can find it?
`16· · · ·Q.· I'm just asking if you think you could find
`17· edge switch if you were given the chance.
`18· · · ·A.· I don't -- I don't know that I can answer that
`19· right now.· What I do recall from the bulk of what
`20· everything is, Lamb uses the term "central office." I
`21· don't recall off the top of my head, and I would have to
`22· look it over to determine if they used the term "edge
`23· switch."
`24· · · ·Q.· Okay.· So can you turn to Column 27, Line 17
`25· through 18 of Lamb, please?
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`Page 10
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`·1· · · ·A.· Column 27.
`·2· · · ·Q.· Line 17 through 18.
`·3· · · ·A.· 17 through 18.· I'll ask you to bear with me, I
`·4· don't hear well.· If you drop your voice, I won't hear
`·5· it.
`·6· · · ·Q.· No worries.
`·7· · · ·A.· Thank you.
`·8· · · ·Q.· I don't take it personally.
`·9· · · ·A.· Column 17, lines --
`10· · · ·Q.· Column 27?
`11· · · ·A.· Line 27.
`12· · · ·Q.· Column 27?
`13· · · ·A.· Column 27, sorry.
`14· · · ·Q.· I believe it's Lines 17 through 18.· So it says
`15· "The public phone switch 202-2 may be a public telephone
`16· switch."· Do you see that?
`17· · · ·A.· I do.
`18· · · ·Q.· In the 1999 to 2000 time frame, would a person
`19· of ordinary skill in the art understand a tandem switch
`20· to be a public phone switch?
`21· · · ·A.· A person of ordinary skill in the art at that
`22· time would understand many switches to be public phone
`23· switches.
`24· · · ·Q.· Would one of those switches be a tandem switch?
`25· · · · · · · · MR. MURPHY:· Objection, form.
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`Page 11
`·1· · · ·A.· One of those switches could be any number of
`·2· other switches, but if you're just calling out one
`·3· particular line here called public switch, as I
`·4· remember, and I told you that Lamb referred to their
`·5· public phone switch as in the central office.· A person
`·6· of ordinary skill in the art at that time would
`·7· understand central office to be that classified or edge
`·8· switch.
`·9· · · ·Q.· Once again, the question is in the 1999 to 2000
`10· time frame, would a person of ordinary skill in the art
`11· understand a tandem switch to be a public phone switch?
`12· · · · · · · · MR. MURPHY:· Objection, form.
`13· · · ·A.· A person of ordinary skill in the art would
`14· understand that a tandem switch is part of the public
`15· switch telephone network.
`16· · · ·Q.· (BY MR. FABIANI)· And what is a tandem switch?
`17· · · ·A.· A tandem switch is as defined in the claim
`18· language here, the tandem switch is a switch that
`19· connects to edge switches and connects to other tandem
`20· switches in both the local as well as the different
`21· geographical area.
`22· · · ·Q.· Okay.· I'm going to hand you Exhibit 2070,
`23· Exhibit Focal IP 2070, which was previously marked in
`24· IPR -- strike that.· Sorry.
`25· · · · · · · · It's Exhibit 2040 in IPR 01260 and it's
`
`Page 12
`·1· entitled "Declaration of Regis J. Bud Bates in Support
`·2· of Patent Owner's Contingent Motion to Amend."
`·3· · · · · · · · Can you turn to paragraph -- I believe it's
`·4· 36.· If you could read off Paragraph 36.
`·5· · · ·A.· 46?
`·6· · · ·Q.· 36, sorry.
`·7· · · ·A.· 36.· I'm reading Paragraph 36 from my
`·8· declaration.· "A POSA would understand that a PSTN
`·9· tandem switch be construed as a switch in the PSTN that
`10· interconnects other PSTN tandem switches and edge
`11· switches."
`12· · · ·Q.· Is that -- is that definition the same
`13· definition you just gave in your last answer?
`14· · · ·A.· I believe so.
`15· · · · · · · · MR. FABIANI:· Can you read back his
`16· testimony to him, is that possible?
`17· · · · · · · · (Requested portion was read.)
`18· · · ·Q.· (BY MR. FABIANI)· I believe it's about -- so is
`19· that the same or a different definition?
`20· · · ·A.· It was a little bit different, I added that,
`21· but if I read up on Paragraph 35, I say something to the
`22· effect about halfway down, a POSA in 2000 would have
`23· known that several tandem switches would serve large
`24· metropolitan areas in the United States and would
`25· consider these switches to be local tandem switches from
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`Page 13
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`·1· the perspective of a POSA in that particular
`·2· geographical area, which is how I lumped those two kind
`·3· of statements together.
`·4· · · ·Q.· So I'm going to hand you Exhibit 2070, IP 2070,
`·5· which was marked in IPR 2016-01260 and it's entitled
`·6· "Declaration of Regis Bud Bates in Support of Patent
`·7· Owner's Reply in Support of Motion to Amend."
`·8· · · ·A.· Thank you.
`·9· · · ·Q.· Can you turn to Paragraph 40, please.· And you
`10· see where it says "Petitioner's arguments, however, do
`11· not consider that O'Neal and Lamb disclose their
`12· respective call establishment methodologies in the
`13· context of a controller connected to an edge switch.· In
`14· such an arrangement, the controller will not receive
`15· call signaling, i.e., call request, since such signaling
`16· does not pass beyond edge switches."
`17· · · · · · · · Do you see that?
`18· · · ·A.· I do.
`19· · · ·Q.· Does this mean that for a controller to receive
`20· call signaling it must be connected to something other
`21· than an edge switch?
`22· · · · · · · · MR. MURPHY:· Objection, form.
`23· · · ·A.· The controller that we're referring to is the
`24· TAC, the tandem access controller, which is connected to
`25· a tandem switch, it's associated with a tandem switch.
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`Page 14
`·1· If we're beyond the edge switch, which is what I've been
`·2· saying, the signaling would not be passed through the
`·3· edge switch to the end device.
`·4· · · ·Q.· (BY MR. FABIANI)· Okay.· So again, if something
`·5· receives signaling, in your opinion, it must be
`·6· connected to something other than an edge switch?
`·7· · · ·A.· If something receives signaling, am I saying it
`·8· would be connected to something other than an edge
`·9· switch?
`10· · · ·Q.· Yes.
`11· · · ·A.· That is not what I just said.· I said the
`12· signaling does not go beyond the edge switch.· An edge
`13· switch will receive signaling, a tandem switch will
`14· receive signaling, that's the SS7 network that I've
`15· described in several of my declarations.
`16· · · ·Q.· So what must the controller be connected to to
`17· receive signaling, can you give me an example?
`18· · · · · · · · MR. MURPHY:· Objection, form.
`19· · · ·A.· Let's back up just a second here.· All right.
`20· There's different types of signaling in this network.
`21· Okay?· The signaling that we're referring to as being
`22· edge switch, controller, tandem switches, things of that
`23· nature, will receive SS7 signaling.· Okay?· There are
`24· other types of signaling that we're talking about.· To
`25· ask me what must something be connected to in order to
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`Page 15
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`·1· receive signaling, all right -- you know, I mean, a
`·2· basic telephone generates in-band signaling information,
`·3· but that is not SS7, that is not the signaling that
`·4· we're talking about.· We send the digits down the wires.
`·5· The controller that we're talking about here, the TAC,
`·6· would be connected as its defined as a tandem access
`·7· controller, so it's going to be in communications with
`·8· the tandem switch.
`·9· · · ·Q.· (BY MR. FABIANI)· Okay.· So when they say the
`10· controller will not receive call signaling, such as --
`11· you mean SS7 signaling here; is that correct?
`12· · · ·A.· Say that again, please.
`13· · · ·Q.· In Paragraph 40, you say "In such an
`14· arrangement, the controller will not receive call
`15· signaling."· Here you mean SS7 signaling as an example;
`16· is that correct?
`17· · · · · · · · MR. MURPHY:· Objection, form.
`18· · · ·A.· What I'm referring to here is that in
`19· describing O'Neil and Lamb and so on, their respective
`20· call establishment methodologies in the context of a
`21· controller that is connected to an edge switch, so
`22· they're on the other side of the edge switch in such an
`23· arrangement, what I am saying is that controller will
`24· not receive the call signaling, the SS7 type signaling
`25· since the signaling does not pass beyond the edge
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`Page 16
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`·1· switch.
`·2· · · ·Q.· So you're saying that Lamb's TA -- TNS or THS
`·3· doesn't receive call signaling, that's your opinion?
`·4· · · ·A.· What I'm saying is Lamb is defining an edge
`·5· switch, okay, and it's TNS and THS.· The TNS is
`·6· connected at the central office, the edge switch.· The
`·7· THS is a board of that.· They can signal each other.
`·8· · · ·Q.· Can we go to Column 12, Lines 50 through 65 of
`·9· Lamb?
`10· · · ·A.· I'm sorry.· I missed --
`11· · · ·Q.· Column 12, Line 50.
`12· · · ·A.· Column 12, Line 50 of Lamb.
`13· · · ·Q.· Do you see where it says "A call signal message
`14· is generally a specific signaling protocol message, such
`15· as a message provided by the PINT or SS7 protocols" --
`16· · · ·A.· I do.
`17· · · ·Q.· -- "that is transferred between the
`18· telecommunications hosting server and telecommunications
`19· network server."
`20· · · · · · · · Do you see that?
`21· · · ·A.· Correct.
`22· · · ·Q.· So here Lamb is saying an example of call
`23· signaling is SS7 signaling; is that correct?
`24· · · ·A.· Either SS7 or PINT, sure.
`25· · · ·Q.· So can we go to Column 20, Lines 46 through 58.
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`Page 17
`·1· Do you see where it says "The processor executes the
`·2· first user agent to receive in its telecommunications
`·3· hosting server at least one first call signaling message
`·4· from the connection based network indicating a request
`·5· to establish at least one call connection"?
`·6· · · ·A.· I see that.
`·7· · · ·Q.· What is the connection based network?
`·8· · · ·A.· The connection based network is what we refer
`·9· to as the PSTN.
`10· · · ·Q.· So does this state that the THS,
`11· telecommunications hosting server, receives call
`12· signaling from PSTN?
`13· · · · · · · · MR. MURPHY:· Objection, form.
`14· · · ·A.· Does the THS receive call signaling from --
`15· · · ·Q.· (BY MR. FABIANI)· The PSTN?
`16· · · ·A.· -- the PSTN?· It would basically be controlled,
`17· the TNS is controlled by the THS and it sends
`18· information to the processor to produce a connection.
`19· · · ·Q.· Is TNS the connection based network?
`20· · · ·A.· The TNS is connected to the edge switch.· It's
`21· right there in -- with the edge switch in the central
`22· office as Lamb describes it.
`23· · · ·Q.· But it's a part of the connection based
`24· network?
`25· · · ·A.· It is connected to the edge switch.· It's not
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`Page 18
`·1· part of the edge switch network.· The PSTN is the PSTN.
`·2· This is a device that's connected to it.
`·3· · · ·Q.· So when it receives -- when Lamb says it
`·4· receives call signaling message from the connection
`·5· based network, it receives it from the edge switch?
`·6· · · ·A.· The TNS is controlling that edge switch and
`·7· telling it to create a connection, so it's receiving it
`·8· from that TNS.
`·9· · · ·Q.· I'm sorry.· It says it receives it from the
`10· connection based network and you said that the TNS isn't
`11· part of the connection based network?
`12· · · ·A.· It's connected to the edge switch.· It's
`13· controlling that edge switch.
`14· · · ·Q.· Can we go to Column 24, Line 28 of that?
`15· · · ·A.· Column 24, line what?
`16· · · ·Q.· 28.
`17· · · ·A.· 28.· Thank you.
`18· · · ·Q.· Do you see where it says "Also included is a
`19· means for processing at least one call signaling message
`20· to provide enhanced calling services including at least
`21· one of conference calling, whisper room conference
`22· calling, time-based whisper room conference calling" --
`23· · · ·A.· Okay.· You referred me to line 28 and you
`24· started reading some place else.
`25· · · ·Q.· I'm sorry.· It's line 32.
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`Page 19
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`·1· · · ·A.· Okay.· I see that.
`·2· · · ·Q.· What does that mean to you?
`·3· · · ·A.· Well --
`·4· · · · · · · · MR. MURPHY:· Objection, form.
`·5· · · ·A.· -- it's an embodiment that basically the user
`·6· agent process, which is software in the THS is going to
`·7· perform within the hosting server, the THS.· The user
`·8· agent process includes a means for receiving at least
`·9· one call signaling message indicating an incoming call
`10· connection.· So the THS is getting an information that
`11· there's an incoming call connection, that's what it
`12· means.· I can read on that it -- also included is the
`13· means for at least one call signaling message to provide
`14· enhanced calling services, including one of at least
`15· conference calling, whisper room conferencing,
`16· time-based whisper, all of the different features that
`17· the THS itself provides.
`18· · · ·Q.· So in a context of the PSTN, are you familiar
`19· with the term STP?
`20· · · ·A.· I am.
`21· · · ·Q.· And what is an STP?
`22· · · ·A.· Signaling transfer point.· An STP sits on the
`23· SS7 network and it is a message packet switching that
`24· sends SS7 messages from STP to STP or STP to SCP and so
`25· on.
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`Page 20
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`·1· · · ·Q.· Is an edge switch an example of an STP?
`·2· · · ·A.· No.· An edge switch is an edge switch.· An STP
`·3· does not provide voice communications.
`·4· · · ·Q.· Okay.· So are STPs directly connected to the
`·5· telephones?
`·6· · · ·A.· No.· They're connected to switches and
`·7· databases, and things of that nature.
`·8· · · ·Q.· Can you give me an example of an STP?
`·9· · · ·A.· Could you be more specific?
`10· · · ·Q.· Any kind of example of an STP, I just want
`11· you -- do you know an example of an STP?
`12· · · · · · · · MR. MURPHY:· Objection, form.
`13· · · ·A.· I mean, that's a question that could cover a
`14· wide range, but I will give you a little bit of an idea
`15· what an STP is.· It's a packet switching system that
`16· processes SS7 messages.· SS7 messages are very specific
`17· protocols that are used for the call setup, call
`18· teardown signaling, signaling, okay, not the actual
`19· call, but the signaling.· So it's a packet based
`20· switching system.
`21· · · ·Q.· And in the context of the PSTN, are you
`22· familiar with the term SSP?
`23· · · ·A.· SSP is -- yes.
`24· · · ·Q.· And what is an SSP?
`25· · · ·A.· It's a switching service -- or service
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`Page 21
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`·1· switching point.
`·2· · · ·Q.· Can you give me some examples of SSPs?
`·3· · · · · · · · MR. MURPHY:· Objection, form.
`·4· · · ·A.· SSPs are add-on-type processors that are added
`·5· onto an edge switch or any other switch across the
`·6· network, the hierarchy of switchings that will process
`·7· the messages that have to go to an STP.
`·8· · · ·Q.· So you said that an SSP will be connected to an
`·9· edge switch; is that true?
`10· · · · · · · · MR. MURPHY:· Objection, form.
`11· · · ·A.· An edge switch would be connected to an SSP,
`12· vice versa.
`13· · · ·Q.· (BY MR. FABIANI)· And would a tandem switch be
`14· connected to an SSP?
`15· · · ·A.· More than likely, yes.
`16· · · ·Q.· Does an STP interconnect SSPs?
`17· · · · · · · · MR. MURPHY:· Objection, form.
`18· · · ·A.· An STP services SSPs.· The SSPs are connected
`19· to the STP.
`20· · · ·Q.· (BY MR. FABIANI)· Does an STP connect -- sorry,
`21· strike that.
`22· · · · · · · · Does an STP route SS7 signals between SSPs?
`23· · · · · · · · MR. MURPHY:· Objection, form.
`24· · · ·A.· An SSP will send its information up to the STP
`25· that produces a packet.· The packet then gets routed
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`Page 22
`·1· from STP to STP and so on and so forth; however, it also
`·2· will communicate down to the SSPs.
`·3· · · ·Q.· (BY MR. FABIANI)· So can we go back to
`·4· Exhibit 2040 in the 1260 proceeding.· And turn back to
`·5· Paragraph 39, please -- or 36 sorry, my fault.
`·6· · · ·A.· 36.
`·7· · · ·Q.· Yes.· Did you consider this definition when
`·8· determining that a POSA would recognize that an STP
`·9· could not function as a tandem switch?
`10· · · · · · · · MR. MURPHY:· Objection, form.
`11· · · ·A.· Would you ex -- say that one again.
`12· · · ·Q.· (BY MR. FABIANI)· Can we take you to
`13· Exhibit 2070 in the IPR 1260, Paragraph 39.
`14· · · ·A.· Paragraph?
`15· · · ·Q.· 39, please.
`16· · · ·A.· 39.· Okay.
`17· · · ·Q.· So here you say that a POSA would recognize
`18· that an STP cannot function as a tandem switch.
`19· · · ·A.· I would.· In the definition of the tandem
`20· switch that we're dealing with in the claim language,
`21· the tandem switch is a switch that is connected to edge
`22· switches and other tandem switches.
`23· · · · · · · · The STP is a message switch that carries
`24· signaling messages.· A tandem switch handles voice call
`25· setup, call teardown and carries voice.· Well, actually,
`
`Page 23
`·1· it's the edge switch that would generate the call setup
`·2· and request, the tandem is just passing it through to an
`·3· edge switch or to another tandem switch.
`·4· · · · · · · · So a POSA would recognize that an STP is
`·5· not a tandem switch as we're describing tandem switch
`·6· here.
`·7· · · ·Q.· Okay.· So you considered your proposed
`·8· instruction in Paragraph 36 of your Exhibit 2040
`·9· declaration when determining that a POSA would recognize
`10· that an STP cannot function as a tandem switch in
`11· Exhibit 2070, Paragraph 39?
`12· · · ·A.· Are you giving me a sequence that I considered
`13· this based on this?
`14· · · ·Q.· Did you consider that -- the definition in
`15· Paragraph 36 when determining in Paragraph 39 that a
`16· POSA would recognize that an STP cannot function as a
`17· tandem switch?
`18· · · ·A.· I'm trying to look at the dates on these. I
`19· think we're out of sequence here a little bit, but -- so
`20· I wrote this on 4/2 -- I signed this on 4/2 and this one
`21· is July.
`22· · · · · · · · Okay.· A POSA in April would have
`23· understood in July the same thing that I'm saying here,
`24· that an STP is not a tandem switch in the PSTN.
`25· · · ·Q.· Right.· But did you consider that explicit
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`Page 24
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`·1· definition when making that determination?
`·2· · · ·A.· I would consider that as well as a number of
`·3· other information, just reading the SS7 guidelines would
`·4· point me to that same thing.· Looking at some of the
`·5· other diagrams that we've used in these different claims
`·6· and so on, we would use that same combination.· An STP
`·7· is part of the SS7 network, which is really -- it's kind
`·8· of an overlay, not really part of the PSTN.· The PSTN
`·9· uses the SS7 for stapling, but they are different boxes.
`10· An STP is a packet switch that carries signaling
`11· messages.· A tandem switch is a tandem switch that is
`12· connected to edge switches, and yes -- so my knowledge
`13· -- and a POSA would understand that definition that I
`14· just gave you when I made this statement about an STP is
`15· not a tandem switch.
`16· · · ·Q.· So going back to Exhibit 2040, Paragraph 36,
`17· does that construction explicitly require the
`18· transmission of voice?
`19· · · · · · · · MR. MURPHY:· Objection, form.
`20· · · ·A.· Does that construction require what?
`21· · · ·Q.· (BY MR. FABIANI)· Does that proposed
`22· construction you have proposed in Paragraph 36 mention
`23· the -- or require the -- sorry.· Strike that.
`24· · · · · · · · Does that proposed construction in
`25· Paragraph 36 explicitly require the transmission of
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`Page 25
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`·1· voice?
`·2· · · · · · · · MR. MURPHY:· Objection, form.
`·3· · · ·A.· It does not explicitly require the transmission
`·4· of voice; however, a POSA would understand that a tandem
`·5· switch is going to carry voice and not the signaling.
`·6· As a matter of fact, if I recall correctly, all of
`·7· the -- or most of the experts in both side of this case
`·8· have said the same thing.
`·9· · · ·Q.· Is an STP a switch that interconnects PSTN
`10· tandem switches and edge switches?
`11· · · · · · · · MR. MURPHY:· Objection, form.
`12· · · ·A.· As I said, they are connected to an STP.· Edge
`13· switches and tandem switches are connected to an STP.
`14· · · ·Q.· Does it interconnect them?
`15· · · · · · · · MR. MURPHY:· Objection, form.
`16· · · ·A.· I think you would have to give me a definition
`17· of what you mean by interconnect.
`18· · · ·Q.· (BY MR. FABIANI)· Let's -- you're -- that comes
`19· from you, so what do you mean by interconnect?· In
`20· Paragraph 36, you used the word interconnect, what does
`21· that mean to you?
`22· · · · · · · · MR. MURPHY:· Objection, form.
`23· · · ·A.· Interconnect means they are connected to each
`24· other, uh-huh.
`25· · · ·Q.· (BY MR. FABIANI)· So I'm going to hand you
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`Page 26
`·1· Exhibit YMAX 1031, which was previously marked in IPR
`·2· 2016-01258 and is U.S. Patent Number 6169735, otherwise
`·3· known as the Allen reference.
`·4· · · · · · · · Look at that Figure 1 of Allen, please.· So
`·5· does this figure illustrate an STP connected to a tandem
`·6· switch?
`·7· · · ·A.· It does.
`·8· · · ·Q.· And does this figure illustrate an STP
`·9· connected to central office switches?
`10· · · · · · · · MR. MURPHY:· Objection, form.
`11· · · ·A.· It shows the STP communicating with the central
`12· office.· And to answer an earlier question you asked, is
`13· the tandem switch -- or is an STP a tandem switch?
`14· These are defined as completely separate and distinct
`15· items.· A tandem is designated with a T.· An STP, the
`16· signaling portion of the network, is designated with
`17· STP.· They are different.
`18· · · ·Q.· How does signaling get from CO-10, for example,
`19· to tandem T-16?
`20· · · ·A.· How does signaling get to the tandem from CO
`21· number 10?
`22· · · ·Q.· Yes.
`23· · · ·A.· Typically using the STP, the CO will send its
`24· message up.· It's information up to the STP.· The STP
`25· will then forward it back down to the tandem.
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`Page 27
`·1· · · ·Q.· Can we go back to Lamb, please.· Can we go to
`·2· Figure 1 of Lamb.· And what is that showing there?
`·3· · · · · · · · MR. MURPHY:· Objection, form.
`·4· · · ·A.· It's labeled as "Figure 1 conventional circuit
`·5· switch telephone network."· This is a great way to kind
`·6· of give you an answer, again, to what I had said earlier
`·7· that the SS7 network is kind of an overlay on the PSTN.
`·8· It's not really the PSTN, but it's an overlay.· It's a
`·9· separate signaling portion of the network.· And it also
`10· shows several central office switches, which a POSA
`11· would understand is central office switch to be an edge
`12· switch.
`13· · · ·Q.· Can we go to Column 1 of Lamb, Line 36.· And
`14· you can read through Line 45.
`15· · · ·A.· You're talking -- I couldn't hear you.
`16· · · ·Q.· Oh, you can read through Line 45.
`17· · · ·A.· Line 45, okay.· I'm there.
`18· · · ·Q.· So do you see where it says "Communications,
`19· media, e.g., telephone lines, wireless links and/or the
`20· like, interconnect the offices 110 through 113 to one
`21· another."
`22· · · · · · · · MR. MURPHY:· What line are you on?
`23· · · · · · · · MR. FABIANI:· I'm sorry.· It's Line 42.
`24· · · ·A.· Line?
`25· · · ·Q.· (BY MR. FABIANI)· 42.
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`Page 28
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`·1· · · ·A.· 42, okay.· Okay.· I see where it says that.
`·2· · · ·Q.· Does Lamb refer to Items 231 and 232 of
`·3· Figure 4 as lines or telephone lines or communication
`·4· links?
`·5· · · · · · · · MR. MURPHY:· Objection, form.
`·6· · · ·A.· Does Lamb refer to -- please --
`·7· · · ·Q.· (BY MR. FABIANI)· Items 231 and 232 of Figure 4
`·8· as lines or telephone lines or communication links?
`·9· · · ·A.· In Column 34, Lines 8 through 10, Lamb refers
`10· to "call connection 232, as well as the identity of the
`11· inactive call connection 231 (which is the call
`12· connection associated with the call destination
`13· identifier or phone number of the user tel