Jaime G. Carbonell
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` _________________________________________
`
` FACEBOOK, INC.,
`
`Case Nos. IPR2016-01156
`
`Petitioner,
`
`-against-
`
` WINDY CITY INNOVATIONS, LLC,
`
`Patent Owner.
`
`IPR2016-01141
`
`IPR2016-01157
`
`IPR2016-01067
`
`IPR2016-01158
`
`IPR2016-01159
`
`_________________________________________
`
`IPR2016-01155
`
`DEPOSITION of JAIME G. CARBONELL,
`
` taken by Petitioner, pursuant to Notice, held
`
` at the offices of BROWN RUDNICK LLP, 7 Times
`
` Square, New York, New York commencing at 10:02
`
`a.m. on June 26, 2017, before Wayne Hock, a
`
` Notary Public of the State of New York.
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`Jaime G. Carbonell
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`1 J A I M E G. C A R B O N E L L, having
`2 been first duly sworn by a
`3 Notary Public of the State of
`4 New York, upon being examined,
`5 testified as follows:
`6 EXAMINATION BY
`7 MR. MACE:
`8 Q. What is your current address?
`9 A. 5000 Forbes Avenue,
`10 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15213.
`11 Q. Good morning, Dr. Carbonell.
`12 A. Good morning.
`13 Q. Can you state your full name
`14 for the record, please?
`15 A. It's Jaime. I usually go by
`16 my middle initial G but the full name
`17 is Guillermo, last name Carbonell.
`18 Q. Have you ever been deposed
`19 before?
`20 A. Yes.
`21 Q. Is there any reason that you
`22 can't give completely truthful and
`23 accurate testimony today?
`24 A. No reason.
`25 Q. You understand that you're
`
`1 A P P E A R A N C E S:
`
`23
`
` Attorneys for Petitioner
`4 COOLEY LLP
`5 BY: ANDREW MACE, ESQ.
`6 3175 Hanover Street
`7 Palo Alto, California 94304
`8 amace@cooley.com
`9 DANIEL J. KNAUSS, Ph.D, ESQ.
`10 amace@cooley.com
`11
`12 Attorneys for Patent Owner
`13 BROWN RUDNICK LLP
`14 BY: SHAHAR HAREL, ESQ.
`15 7 Times Square
`16 New York, New York 10036
`17 sharel@brownrudnick.com
`18 ENRIQUE W. ITURRALDE, ESQ.
`19 eiturralde@brownrudnick.com
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
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`Page 2
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`Page 4
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`1 here to testify in connection with
`2 declarations that you provided in seven
`3 IPR proceedings; right?
`4 A. That's correct.
`5 Q. Specifically those IPR
`6 proceedings are IPR 2016-01156, IPR
`7 2016-01141, IPR 2016-01157, IPR
`8 2016-01067, IPR 2016-01158, IPR
`9 2016-01159, IPR 2016-01155.
`10 Is that your understanding?
`11 A. I don't have the IPR numbers
`12 memorized.
`13 Q. I'll represent for the record
`14 that that's what you're here to testify
`15 about today.
`16 Let me hand you what's
`17 already been marked as Exhibit 2005
`18 from IPR 2016-01156.
`19 A. (Reviewing).
`20 Q. Do you recognize this
`21 document?
`22 A. This is my declaration
`23 regarding the '245 patent.
`24 Q. So this is the declaration
`25 you submitted in connection with IPR
`
`1 * * *
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`23
`
` I N D E X
`4 WITNESS EXAMINED BY PAGE
`5 J. Carbonell Mr. Mace 4, 140
`6 Mr. Harel 132
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`789
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`Jaime G. Carbonell
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`1 2016-01156; right?
`2 A. Since I don't have the IPR
`3 memorized, but if that's the one that
`4 corresponds to patent '245, yes, it is.
`5 Q. Can you turn to paragraph
`6 seven of Exhibit 2005.
`7 And the last sentence of that
`8 paragraph it says, "I have experience"
`9 -- it starts, "I have experience in
`10 many aspects of computer technology
`11 including communications programming
`12 and protocols where I regularly teach
`13 two classes every year" --
`14 A. Did you say page seven or
`15 paragraph seven?
`16 Q. Paragraph seven.
`17 Do you have it?
`18 A. I have it, yes.
`19 Q. So the last sentence of that
`20 begins, "I have experience in many
`21 aspects of computing technology
`22 including communications programming
`23 and protocols where I regularly teach
`24 two classes every year in databases and
`25 telecommunication methods in
`
`1 network-based systems such as
`2 master/slave control devices."
`3 Do you see that?
`4 A. Yes.
`5 Q. What do you mean by
`6 communications programming and
`7 protocols?
`8 A. The two classes I'm teaching
`9 now are primarily in the area of
`10 electronic commerce or the technology
`11 underlying electronic commerce to be
`12 more precise. A large part of that is
`13 in the communication protocols, the
`14 display of information, the
`15 transmission of multimedia information,
`16 the security of the communication
`17 links, the analysis of the data that is
`18 transmitted, and the underlying
`19 databases and search engine support for
`20 these activities.
`21 Q. So does that include
`22 experience in the TCP/IP protocols?
`23 A. Yes, it does.
`24 Q. Do you have any experience
`25 designing or building computer
`
`1 network-based videoconferencing
`2 systems?
`3 A. I have experience in the
`4 components thereof. I have not built
`5 an end-to-end teleconferencing system.
`6 Q. So which components do you
`7 have experience in?
`8 A. I have expertise in the
`9 transmission of multimedia information
`10 including the real-time aspects
`11 thereof, which are part of
`12 teleconferencing systems. I have
`13 familiarity with the security
`14 protocols, the password and related
`15 mechanisms. I have experience with the
`16 locking and unlocking functions of
`17 communication protocols in general. I
`18 am familiar with the underlying
`19 databases that support these
`20 activities, these being relational
`21 databases including multimedia
`22 components and so forth.
`23 Q. Can you describe the nature
`24 of your experience in the transmission
`25 of multimedia information?
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`1 A. Yes.
`2 So multimedia information can
`3 be transmitted in different ways, as a
`4 file in a one-way transmission, in an
`5 interactive way which is broken up into
`6 smaller parts, transmitted and
`7 reassembled at the other end. I have
`8 experience with compression mechanisms
`9 to reduce the size of the information,
`10 packets of information and files that
`11 are being sent. The complement of this
`12 is the decompression at the other end.
`13 And I am familiar with using the same
`14 channel to send multiple items of
`15 information, what's typically called
`16 multiplexing and, at the other end,
`17 demultiplexing which is breaking apart
`18 the information into the individual
`19 channels to that you can use a single
`20 virtual channel to have multiple
`21 communications.
`22 Q. Since when have you had this
`23 experience?
`24 A. I have been working in
`25 electronic commerce since the
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`Jaime G. Carbonell
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`1 beginnings, since the 90s. I had my
`2 first experience of the Internet
`3 aspects of that with Mosaic when that
`4 was a primary browser prior to
`5 Netscape, so that would be in the mid
`6 to early 90s. Prior to that, I had
`7 experience using primarily over local
`8 area networks prior to the Internet.
`9 It would include things like the
`10 Ethernet, token ring network, and so
`11 forth.
`12 Q. So by early 1990s you had
`13 experience with using the same channel
`14 to send multiple items of information
`15 and -- sorry, it will help if we don't
`16 talk over each other.
`17 A. I will wait.
`18 Q. So since the early 1990s
`19 you've had experience with using the
`20 same channel to send multiple items of
`21 information, breaking apart the
`22 information into individual channels so
`23 that you can use a single virtual
`24 channel to have multiple
`25 communications?
`
`1 A. If I may clarify, at that
`2 time that was done over local area
`3 networks. Later it was also done over
`4 the Internet. The original work that I
`5 did over the Internet related to Mosaic
`6 did not involve the transmission of
`7 complex information like multimedia.
`8 Q. So what you referred to
`9 earlier as multiplexing, you used that
`10 in the local area network context in
`11 the early 1990s; is that right?
`12 A. That is essentially right.
`13 Q. Is that also true for the
`14 reverse of that process,
`15 demultiplexing?
`16 A. Yes, that is correct.
`17 Q. In the local area network
`18 context that you're speaking about, was
`19 that using TCP/IP?
`20 A. In the local, no, it was
`21 using earlier, different protocols.
`22 Q. Which protocols was it using?
`23 A. Well, the Ethernet has its
`24 own protocol, so does the token ring
`25 network. They started out as
`
`1 proprietary protocols.
`2 Q. About when do you recall your
`3 earlier experience being with
`4 multiplexing and demultiplexing over
`5 the Internet?
`6 A. It's hard to pin it down to a
`7 particular year. It was middle/late
`8 90s, probably late.
`9 Q. So maybe 1995?
`10 A. No, it's after that.
`11 Q. Early 1996?
`12 A. It was in the '96/'98 range.
`13 Q. I think also you referred to
`14 experience with relational databases;
`15 is that correct?
`16 A. That's correct.
`17 Q. And a relational database is
`18 one where data is stored in tables and
`19 organized into columns and rows; right?
`20 A. There's more to it than that,
`21 but what you said is correct.
`22 Q. As of the early 1990s, did
`23 you have experience with commercial
`24 relational database systems?
`25 A. Yes.
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`1 Q. To the best of your
`2 recollection, did those systems all
`3 include database management software?
`4 A. All the ones that I have
`5 worked with, that's correct. In fact,
`6 I extended for the research purposes
`7 some of the DMS capabilities.
`8 Q. So you can't think of an
`9 off-the-shelf relational database
`10 product of in the early to mid 1990s
`11 that did not include a database
`12 management system?
`13 A. They all did. They were not
`14 the same database management systems.
`15 Some were more capable than others.
`16 Some contained some more rudimentary
`17 functionality. But I don't know any in
`18 which that functionality was absent.
`19 Q. So all of the relational
`20 products that you can think of included
`21 software for accessing and modifying
`22 the underlying database data; right?
`23 A. That is correct, for
`24 updating, modifying, accessing,
`25 indexing, and so forth.
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`Jaime G. Carbonell
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`1 Q. Can you turn with me to
`2 paragraph eighteen of your declaration,
`3 Exhibit 2005.
`4 Do you have it?
`5 A. Yes, I have paragraph
`6 eighteen.
`7 Q. In paragraph eighteen, it
`8 looks like you're stating your opinion
`9 regarding the level of one of ordinary
`10 skill in the art; is that right?
`11 A. Yes.
`12 Q. And it states, "at least one
`13 year of work experience in programming
`14 in computer communication methods."
`15 Do you see that?
`16 A. Yes.
`17 Q. What did you mean by computer
`18 communication methods?
`19 A. Basically
`20 computer-to-computer transmission of
`21 information.
`22 Q. So you're not referring to
`23 communication methods that are strictly
`24 internal to a single computer?
`25 A. You mean among the components
`Page 14
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`1 "however, the disclosure of a WAN
`2 network is not a disclosure of the
`3 Internet."
`4 Do you see that?
`5 A. No.
`6 Which line?
`7 Q. It's about the fourth line
`8 down.
`9 A. I see it now.
`10 Q. Now, I think you said this
`11 earlier but you used the Internet by
`12 1996; right?
`13 A. Yes.
`14 Q. And the students that you
`15 were teaching back then also used the
`16 Internet, to the best of your
`17 knowledge?
`18 A. That's a trickier question
`19 because the students at that time were
`20 just beginning to use the Internet.
`21 Q. As of 1996, early 1996, is it
`22 your understanding that the Internet
`23 was one example of a wide area network?
`24 A. The term "wide area network"
`25 is typically used to refer to a private
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`1 within the computer?
`2 Q. For example, you can have two
`3 programs on the same computer that are
`4 running and they can communicate with
`5 each other.
`6 That's not what you're
`7 referring to here; right?
`8 A. I was not referring to that
`9 here. However, some of the protocols
`10 for two programs communicating with
`11 each other, such as RPC, remote
`12 procedure call, are also used to
`13 communicate across computers.
`14 Q. I just want to make sure that
`15 your definition of one of ordinary
`16 skill in the art requires experience
`17 with computer network-based
`18 communication.
`19 Does it?
`20 A. That's what I meant by that
`21 statement.
`22 Q. Let's turn to paragraph
`23 twenty-one of your declaration,
`24 Exhibit 2005, and specifically page
`25 eleven. There's a sentence that reads,
`
`1 network rather than the public Internet
`2 network.
`3 Q. Earlier in paragraph
`4 twenty-one you referred to the Computer
`5 and Information Science Technology
`6 Abbreviations and Acronyms Dictionary
`7 from 1994.
`8 Do you see that?
`9 A. Yes, I see that.
`10 Q. Let me hand you what's been
`11 marked as Patent Owners Exhibit 2012 in
`12 IPR 2016-01156.
`13 Is this the exhibit that
`14 you're referring to in paragraph
`15 twenty-one?
`16 A. I do not know. I would need
`17 to check back with the original exhibit
`18 to see if this is a reprinted or newer
`19 edition.
`20 Q. Let me also hand you this,
`21 too.
`22 MR. HAREL: Do we want to be
`23 marking these as exhibits within
`24 the context of this deposition?
`25 MR. MACE: I don't think we
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`Jaime G. Carbonell
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`1 need to do that. They've already
`2 been marked in each of the
`3 proceedings.
`4 Q. So I've just handed you
`5 another document that's marked as
`6 Exhibit 2012 in IPR 2016-01156 and on
`7 the first page it says the Computer and
`8 Information Science Technology
`9 Abbreviations and Acronyms Dictionary.
`10 Do you see that?
`11 A. Yes, I do.
`12 Q. And on the last page which
`13 has been marked page four there's a
`14 definition for networks-wide area,
`15 WANs.
`16 Do you see that?
`17 A. Yes, I see that.
`18 Q. And it starts, "a WAN is any
`19 network covering a wide area."
`20 Do you see that?
`21 A. Yes, I see that.
`22 Q. Do you agree that the
`23 Internet is a network that covers a
`24 wide area?
`25 A. The Internet covers the
`
`1 entire world.
`2 Q. So the Internet is obviously
`3 then a network that covers a wide area;
`4 correct?
`5 A. It depends whether you
`6 entered a wide area to exclude some
`7 part. Wide area can be interpreted to
`8 mean large geographical extent but not
`9 the entirety of the planet.
`10 Q. But the Internet is a network
`11 that covers a wide geographical extent;
`12 correct?
`13 A. It covers the totality of the
`14 geographical extent.
`15 Q. Do you know of any wide area
`16 network that covers a geographical
`17 extent greater than the Internet?
`18 A. No.
`19 Q. Let me just hand it to you so
`20 you have it, Facebook's Exhibit 1003.
`21 Exhibit 103 is the Roseman
`22 patent; right?
`23 A. Yes.
`24 Q. And you reviewed the Roseman
`25 patent in connection with the
`
`1 declarations that you have offered in
`2 these proceedings?
`3 A. Yes, I have.
`4 Q. Did you find anything in
`5 Roseman that would preclude using an
`6 Internet wide area network?
`7 A. I did not see anything in
`8 Roseman that would indicate or teach
`9 using the Internet.
`10 Q. I understand that's your
`11 opinion. You're not quite answering my
`12 question.
`13 Did you see or find anything
`14 in Roseman that would preclude using
`15 the Internet as the wide area network
`16 for the system that's described in the
`17 patent?
`18 A. I'm sorry, I find that
`19 question a little strange. I don't
`20 find anything in the Bible that would
`21 preclude using the Internet, so you
`22 must be meaning something other than
`23 what I'm understanding by your
`24 question.
`25 Q. Well, the Roseman patent
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`1 generally describes a conferencing
`2 system that allows people at different
`3 locations to communicate with each
`4 other over a computer network; right?
`5 A. It's more specific than that,
`6 but that statement is correct.
`7 Q. When you reviewed Roseman,
`8 did you see anything that would
`9 preclude using the Internet as the
`10 computer network that connected the
`11 conference users?
`12 A. The Roseman patent is
`13 engineered towards using these private
`14 networks and so many of the teachings
`15 in it fail to address the requirements
`16 of the Internet, such as packet
`17 switching, reassembling the information
`18 at the other end, the
`19 multiplexing/demultiplexing aspects,
`20 the security and identification of
`21 individuals, and so on. So these, in
`22 my mind, teach away from using the
`23 Internet.
`24 Q. Do you agree that the
`25 Internet is an example of a
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`Jaime G. Carbonell
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`1 commercially available wide area
`2 network?
`3 A. The Internet is universally
`4 available. I don't know what you mean
`5 by commercially. There's commercial
`6 activities on the Internet. No company
`7 owns the Internet. So there isn't is
`8 single commercial provider/maintainer
`9 of the Internet.
`10 Q. So if the Internet is
`11 universally available then it would be
`12 commercially available, too; right?
`13 A. It's available to nonprofits,
`14 educational institutions, individuals,
`15 commerce. It's available for
`16 everything, yes, sir.
`17 Q. Do you recall your first use
`18 of the World Wide Web?
`19 MR. MACE: Let's step back for
`20 a bit.
`21 Q. Can you briefly describe for
`22 me what the World Wide Web is.
`23 A. Yes, I can. The question is
`24 how to do it briefly. Let me give it a
`25 try.
`
`1 The precursor to the World
`2 Wide Web was the invention of
`3 hypertext. Hypertext means you can
`4 have references to some text contained
`5 in another text such that, with a
`6 single user action such as a click or a
`7 double click, you can access the
`8 content that which is referenced.
`9 That's essentially the
`10 hyperlinks/hypertext.
`11 The precursor to the
`12 hypertext definition as was used by
`13 Berners-Lee was a system called Zog, Z
`14 O G, developed by Allen Newell and
`15 others at my university. That one was
`16 not available universally, it was more
`17 for local use within a LAN, not wider.
`18 The insight that Berners-Lee an company
`19 had was that if you connect computers
`20 via the Internet, in other words
`21 anything which is global in the sense
`22 that it allows any computer to be
`23 connected to each other, not those that
`24 are defined ahead of time or the
`25 running a particular operating system
`
`1 or owned by a particular company or
`2 within a particular firewall, then you
`3 can still perform this indirect
`4 reference to content at remote
`5 locations and building a suite of tools
`6 that would permit that to happen such
`7 that the HTML, which is a markup
`8 language, Hypertext Markup Language,
`9 formalized these links and then
`10 software tools had to be built with
`11 utilized HTML. Mosaic was the first
`12 one that was widely available. It was
`13 I believe freeware at the time, not
`14 owned by a particular commercial
`15 entity, and that was the first browser
`16 which enabled a user to take advantage
`17 of the hyperlinks. Clicking in one
`18 hyperlink produced a text at the remote
`19 end by bringing that text back and then
`20 displaying it locally.
`21 That was the genesis of the
`22 World Wide Web.
`23 Q. So in early 1996 when Mosaic
`24 was used to access a Web site, the Web
`25 server would return information that
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`1 the Mosaic Web browser would display
`2 and then, using the Mosaic browser, you
`3 could send clicks to the server to
`4 retrieve additional information for
`5 display; right?
`6 A. If I may correct a couple of
`7 details, the information at that time
`8 consisted of text and hypertext and the
`9 clicks were not transmitted to the
`10 remote site. The URL, the universal
`11 resource locator, was what was actually
`12 transmitted. Part of that locator says
`13 where that site was and the other part
`14 of the locator said what file or other
`15 piece of information is requested to
`16 display. Then the receiving end has
`17 the option of honoring the request or
`18 blocking it. Typically they are
`19 honored and so you display the
`20 retrieved information -- the
`21 information comes back to the browser
`22 and then the browser is responsible for
`23 displaying it. The browser at that
`24 time could display plain text or HTML
`25 hypertext.
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`Jaime G. Carbonell
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`1 Q. So in early 1996 the Mosaic
`2 browser just displayed information from
`3 the server and sent URLs to the server;
`4 is that right?
`5 MR. HAREL: Objection. Scope.
`6 THE WITNESS: With the
`7 provisos I stated earlier, that is
`8 a summary, yes.
`9 Q. I've handed you a document
`10 marked Facebook Exhibit 2005, IPR
`11 2016-01156.
`12 Do you recognize this
`13 document?
`14 A. I believe this is what we
`15 call the Vetter reference.
`16 MR. HAREL: I'll note for the
`17 record this appears to be
`18 Exhibit 1005.
`19 Q. And you reviewed Exhibit 1005
`20 in connection with the declaration you
`21 offered in these cases; right?
`22 A. Yes, I did.
`23 Q. Can you turn to page
`24 marked 004.
`25 Do you have it?
`
`1 A. I am looking at page 004,
`2 yes.
`3 Q. And there's a box labeled
`4 available conferencing tools.
`5 Do you see that?
`6 A. Yes, I see the box.
`7 Q. And it appears to list a
`8 number of applications that were
`9 available as of 1995 for conferencing.
`10 Is that your understanding?
`11 A. That's what the author is
`12 calling it. Some of these I'm familiar
`13 with, others I am not familiar with
`14 beyond the description in the text.
`15 Q. Let's go through them.
`16 Have you ever used Collage
`17 before?
`18 A. I've -- so I am familiar with
`19 Collage. I've experimented with it
`20 back then. If that constitutes used,
`21 yes. It was not actually used in the
`22 sense of being a habitual user.
`23 Q. So in the 1995/1996 time
`24 frame you had experience with Collage
`25 software?
`
`1 A. I do not recall the exact
`2 year.
`3 Q. Would it have been before
`4 then or after?
`5 A. It was around that time but I
`6 don't recall the exact year.
`7 Q. What about CU-SeeMe, do you
`8 see that one?
`9 A. Yes.
`10 Q. Are you familiar with
`11 CU-SeeMe software?
`12 A. I never used it.
`13 Q. And so I assume then you've
`14 never used the CU-SeeMe Reflector
`15 either?
`16 A. No, I have not.
`17 Q. Have you ever used INRIA
`18 Videoconferencing System?
`19 A. When I was visiting the INRIA
`20 Laboratories in France, they were --
`21 there was a demonstration of this
`22 system scheduled but it was not
`23 functioning at the moment so I almost
`24 got to see it.
`25 Q. So then you've never used or
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`1 you have no experience with the INRIA
`2 Videoconferencing System?
`3 A. I have no personal experience
`4 with it, no.
`5 Q. What about MBone, are you
`6 familiar with MBone?
`7 A. Yes, but my understanding of
`8 MBone is that is a conduit, a
`9 transmission device, not an end-to-end
`10 conferencing system. It may have been
`11 used with some other software.
`12 Q. So what's the nature of your
`13 experience with MBone?
`14 A. I read about it.
`15 Q. Anything else?
`16 A. If you're asking whether I've
`17 actually used it, no, I have not.
`18 Q. The next one mentioned is
`19 Nevot, Network Voice Terminal.
`20 Do you have any experience
`21 with Nevot, N E V O T?
`22 A. I'm not sure how to answer
`23 this question because I've seen an
`24 example of Bell Labs' voice protocols.
`25 I've had some exchange of information
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`1 with the people there at AT&T, Bell
`2 Labs. I don't recall the name Nevot
`3 though. So I don't know if those
`4 communication protocols were part of
`5 Nevot or related to it or different.
`6 Q. What about NV, Net Video, do
`7 you have any experience with that
`8 software, that tool?
`9 A. No, I've heard this tool
`10 mentioned. I have to recall exactly
`11 the context. But no, I've had no
`12 experience.
`13 Q. What about SD, Session
`14 Director, do you have any experience
`15 with the Session Director tool?
`16 A. I don't have any personal
`17 experience with it either. But this
`18 illustrates the point I mentioned when
`19 we were discussing MBone that it's
`20 software that has to be used in
`21 conjunction with MBone to provide
`22 functionality.
`23 These tools are not at the
`24 same level. They're not equivalent to
`25 each other. Some are lower level and
`
`1 some are user level.
`2 Q. There are two more here.
`3 The VAT, Visual Audio Tool
`4 software, do you have any experience
`5 with VAT?
`6 A. Again, I have not used it. I
`7 visited the Lawrence Livermore
`8 Laboratories at this time and I know
`9 they were experimenting with methods
`10 for transmitting video and they were
`11 having trouble doing it in real-time
`12 over a packet-switched network. So I
`13 don't know if those methods were part
`14 of either SD or VAT or WB. I presume
`15 they were because that's what is
`16 required for all three of these tools.
`17 But I don't have experience with the
`18 actual tools, if that's your question.
`19 Q. Do you recall the trouble
`20 that you mentioned they were having?
`21 A. Yes, I do.
`22 So there was three kinds of
`23 problems. One them is they called it
`24 jitter, which meant that the packets
`25 were not arriving in the same sequence
`
`1 in which they were sent. So to
`2 reconstruct the video, you had to wait
`3 for the slowest packets and so the
`4 video would move for a little while,
`5 then stop because it was waiting for
`6 packets to complete the image. Then it
`7 would have enough packets for that
`8 image and the next and the next and so
`9 it would fast forward a little bit and
`10 stop again. This was judged to be an
`11 unacceptable experience for the user,
`12 so they were trying to solve it.
`13 Another problem that they had
`14 was packet dropout, not all packets
`15 made it, and so they were trying to
`16 figure out how to interpolate among
`17 packets of what came just before and
`18 what came just after in order to deal
`19 with the packet dropout.
`20 And I think they mentioned
`21 some other problems along the same line
`22 that I do not recall the details of.
`23 Q. Do you recall the
`24 experimental setup in which you recall
`25 them having these issues?
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`1 A. They were using a packet
`2 switching network like the Internet and
`3 I don't know if there was just a local
`4 subpart of the Internet or more
`5 locally. I don't know if they ever
`6 told me that. By the description, it
`7 was probably just a local packet
`8 because they were tracing the packets
`9 trying to figure out what caused the
`10 slowdown and it had to do with routers
`11 and things of that sort.
`12 This came up in a couple of
`13 discussions at the time that I visited.
`14 They were hoping I would be able to
`15 help them and I don't think I was very
`16 helpful.
`17 Q. What is it about tracing the
`18 packets that you think it was probably
`19 just local?
`20 A. Because they had access to
`21 the routers.
`22 Q. Do you mean physical access?
`23 A. They had access to what the
`24 router was actually doing. I did not
`25 ask them whether that meant physical
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`1 access or virtual access. The easiest
`2 way would be to have physical access.
`3 This is an experimental setup
`4 that we're discussing here so you do
`5 things in a more confined environment
`6 where you can measure what's going on
`7 at each point in a network before
`8 releasing it for wider use. That's
`9 common practice.
`10 Q. And so it's your
`11 understanding that the visual audio
`12 tool or the Whiteboard tool, you're not
`13 sure which, was being used to transmit
`14 real-time video?
`15 A. That was the object. They
`16 were trying to transmit video and they
`17 were having problems doing so.
`18 I should mention that they
`19 were also having some problems with
`20 audio.
`21 Q. Could you turn with me to
`22 paragraph fifty-seven of Exhibit 2005
`23 that we were talking about earlier,
`24 paragraph fifty-seven?
`25 A. That is my declaration?
`
`1 Q. Yes.
`2 And the first sentence of
`3 paragraph fifty-seven reads, "in a
`4 famous article, he predicted that the
`5 Internet 'will soon go spectacularly
`6 supernova and in 1996 catastrophically
`7 collapse.'"
`8 Do you see that?
`9 A. Yes. The "he" refers to
`10 Metcalfe.
`11 Q. I'll hand you what's been
`12 marked as Exhibit 2009 in IPR
`13 2016-01156.
`14 Is this the Metcalfe article
`15 that you're referring to in paragraph
`16 fifty-seven?
`17 A. I believe so. My eyes are a
`18 little bit too old to be able to read
`19 this font without blowing it up on a
`20 screen.
`21 Q. And it looks like this
`22 article was written around December,
`23 1995; is that right?
`24 A. It was published at that time
`25 so it must have been written a short
`
`1 time before.
`2 Q. Did you know about this
`3 Metcalfe article at that time?
`4 A. How could I avoid knowing
`5 about it? Of course.
`6 Q. How did you find out about
`7 it?
`8 A. It was -- people were talking
`9 about it and somebody had pointed it
`10 out to me at work. I had at that time
`11 read it. That doesn't mean I agree
`12 with it but I read it.
`13 Q. At that time when you read
`14 it, did you agree with it?
`15 A. So Metcalfe pointed to
`16 multiple good reasons why the Internet
`17 would freeze up because of the
`18 increasing volume of transmission of
`19 information, the increasing latency --
`20 latency means the time for information
`21 to arrive at the other end due to the
`22 increasing traffic. I remember
`23 thinking that we need to improve many
`24 of the components, like the speed of
`25 the routers, the buffering mechanisms,
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`1 and so forth in order for these
`2 problems to be prevented. And there
`3 was research going on at several places
`4 to do just that. And the question at
`5 the time in my mind was which one will
`6 get there first, the freeze or --
`7 catastrophic collapse is, in my
`8 opinion, slightly overstating the case.
`9 It was more like freezing up because
`10 you couldn't transmit.
`11 Q. And so when you read this
`12 article, y