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`Page 272
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` IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
` FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS
` MARSHALL DIVISION
`MOBILE TELECOMMUNICATIONS )
`TECHNOLOGIES, LLC )
` ) Civil Action No.
` v. ) 2:12-cv-832-JRG-RSP
` ) (Lead Case)
`SPRINT NEXTEL CORPORATION )
`MOBILE TELECOMMUNICATIONS )
`TECHNOLOGIES, LLC )
` v. ) Civil Action No.
` ) 2:13-cv-259-JRG-RSP
`SAMSUNG TELECOMMUNICATIONS )
`AMERICA, LLC )
`MOBILE TELECOMMUNICATIONS )
`TECHNOLOGIES, LLC )
` v. ) Civil Action No.
` ) 2:13-cv-258-JRG-RSP
`APPLE INC. )
` _____________________________
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
` WILLIAM HAYS
` HELD ON APRIL 1, 2014
` VOLUME 2
`
`JOB NO.1830156
`PAGES 272 - 446
`
`Veritext National Deposition & Litigation Services
`866 299-5127
`
`MTel., Exhibit 2006, Aruba v. MTel., Page 1, IPR2016-00768
`
`

`
` I N D E X
` PAGE
`APPEARANCES................................. 274
`
`WITNESS: WILLIAM HAYS
` EXAMINATION BY TACHÉ................... 278
` EXAMINATION BY DESAI................... 310
` EXAMINATION BY TAYLOR.................. 423
`
`CHANGES AND SIGNATURE....................... 445
`REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE...................... 446
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`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION of WILLIAM HAYS, produced
`as a witness at the instance of the Defendant,
`Samsung Telecommunications America, LLC, and duly
`sworn, was taken in the above-styled and numbered
`cause on Tuesday, the 1st day of April, 2014, from
`8:55 a.m. to 2:36 p.m., before Steven Stogel, CSR,
`CLR, in and for the State of Texas, reported by
`machine shorthand, at the offices of Reed &
`Scardino, LLP, 301 Congress Avenue, Suite 1250,
`Austin, Texas, pursuant to the Federal Rules of
`Civil Procedure; that the Witness will read the
`deposition.
`
`Page 273
`
`Page 275
`
` A P P E A R A N C E S
`COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFF:
` Mr. Dustin L. Taylor
` - and -
` Mr. Steven Tepera
` REED & SCARDINO, LLP
` 301 Congress Avenue, Suite 1250
` Austin, Texas 78701
` Phone: 512.474.2449
` Email: dtaylor@reedscardino.com
` stepera@reedscardino.com
`
`COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT, Samsung Telecommunications
`America, LLC:
` Mr. Rick Taché
` - and -
` Mr. Erikson C. Squier
` GREENBERG TRAURIG, LLP
` 3161 Michelson Drive, Suite 1000
` Irvine, California 92612
` Phone: 949.732.6500
` Email: tacher@gtlaw.com
` squiere@gtlaw.com
`
`COUNSEL FOR DEFENDANT, Apple Inc.:
` Mr. Anish Desai
` - and -
` Mr. Christopher T. Marando
` WEIL, GOTSHAL & MANGES LLP
` 1300 Eye Street, NW, Suite 900
` Washington, D.C. 20005
` Phone: 202.682.7000
` Email: anish.desai@weil.com
` christopher.marando@weil.com
`
`VIDEOGRAPHER:
` Mr. Dane Depinho
`
`COURT REPORTER:
` Mr. Steven Stogel, CSR, CLR
`
` EXHIBITS FOR IDENTIFICATION
`NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE
`Exhibit 15 Australian Patent 288
` No. AU-A-79030/87
`
`Exhibit 16 "Predicting the Range and 299
` Throughput of Mobile Data
` Systems" by P.J. Mabey
`
`Exhibit 17 US Patent No. 5,659,891 361
`
`Exhibit 18 11/17/94 Interoffice 377
` Memorandum from William Hays
` to Candy Hunt
`
`Exhibit 19 11/17/94 Interoffice 382
` Memorandum from William Hays
` to Candy Hunt
`
`Exhibit 20 US Patent No. 5,786,748 383
`
`Exhibit 21 11/17/94 Interoffice 385
` Memorandum from William Hays
` to Candy Hunt
`
`Exhibit 22 2/17/95 Interoffice Memo from 389
` Dinesh Sheth
`Exhibit 23 US Patent No. 4,644,351 404
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`MTel., Exhibit 2006, Aruba v. MTel., Page 2, IPR2016-00768
`
`

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` P R O C E E D I N G S
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Good morning. We 08:55
`are on the record at 8:55 a.m. on April 1st, 2014. 08:55
`This is the video reported deposition of William 08:55
`Hays, Volume 2. My name is Dane Depinho, here with 08:55
`our court reporter, Steve Stogel. We are here from 08:55
`Veritext Legal Solutions at the request of counsel 08:55
`for the defendant. 08:55
` This deposition is being held at 301 08:55
`Congress in Austin, Texas. The caption of this case 08:55
`is MTEL versus Samsung, et al., Case 08:55
`No. 2:12-CV-832-JRG-RSP. 08:56
` Please note that audio and video 08:56
`recording will take place unless all parties agree 08:56
`to go off the record. Microphones are sensitive and 08:56
`may pick up whispers and private conversations and 08:56
`cellular interference. 08:56
` I am not authorized to administer an 08:56
`oath. I am not related to any party in this action, 08:56
`nor am I financially interested in the outcome in 08:56
`any way. 08:56
` May I please have an agreement from 08:56
`all parties that we can proceed? 08:56
` MR. TACHÉ: Yes. 08:56
` MR. TAYLOR: Yes. 08:56
`Page 277
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`electrical engineering? 08:57
` MR. TAYLOR: Objection; form. 08:57
` A. Actually, I've known many technical people 08:57
`who didn't have degrees, so my answer would be no. 08:57
`BY MR. TACHÉ: 08:57
` Q. What would you think would be the minimum 08:57
`educational background that one would need to be 08:57
`considered one skilled in the art of the invention 08:57
`that's the subject of the '428 patent? 08:57
` MR. TAYLOR: Objection; form. 08:57
` A. You know, again, I look to the founders of 08:57
`Apple, for example. The people had very little 08:57
`education and they did quite well, so I'm really not 08:57
`in a position to judge that. 08:58
`BY MR. TACHÉ: 08:58
` Q. From your perspective, if one didn't have 08:58
`a four-year degree or an equivalent from a well 08:58
`recognized institution, is there sort of a work 08:58
`equivalent that you would consider to have as a base 08:58
`requirement for one to be skilled in the art? 08:58
` MR. TAYLOR: Objection; form. 08:58
` A. Again, I really can't comment on that. 08:58
`You know, if I was going to recruit somebody, I 08:58
`would ask for certain requirements, but otherwise, I 08:58
`can't -- I can't be certain of what that would be. 08:58
`Page 279
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` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: At this time, will 08:56
`counsel and all present please identify themselves 08:56
`for the record? 08:56
` MR. TAYLOR: Dustin Taylor and Steven 08:56
`Tepera from Reed & Scardino on behalf of the 08:56
`plaintiff, MTEL. 08:56
` MR. TACHÉ: Rick Taché and Erik 08:56
`Squier from Greenberg Traurig on behalf of Samsung. 08:56
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you. 08:56
` MR. DESAI: Anish Desai and Chris 08:56
`Marando from Weil Gotshal on behalf of Apple. 08:56
` WILLIAM HAYS, 08:56
`having been previously sworn, continued to testify 08:56
`as follows: 08:56
` EXAMINATION 08:56
`BY MR. TACHÉ: 08:56
` Q. Good morning, Mr. Hays. 08:56
` A. Good morning. 08:57
` Q. You testified yesterday that you have a 08:57
`degree from the University of Virginia in electrical 08:57
`engineering. Is that correct? 08:57
` A. Yes. 08:57
` Q. In order for someone to understand the 08:57
`invention that is the subject of the '428 patent, 08:57
`would they necessarily require a degree in 08:57
`Page 278
`
`BY MR. TACHÉ: 08:58
` Q. Let's take your scenario, then. Assuming 08:58
`that you were going to hire someone at MTEL, what 08:58
`would the requirements be from an educational 08:58
`perspective and a work experience perspective? 08:58
` A. We would ask for them to have a work 08:58
`history in this industry, and we would add the words 08:58
`"or equivalent." 08:59
` Q. And define, from your perspective, what 08:59
`the industry would be. 08:59
` A. Well, that's why we'd keep it very broad. 08:59
`I don't think we'd zero in on the degree of it. I 08:59
`think, as I said before, there are many talented 08:59
`people out there who are very successful in 08:59
`technical areas that weren't constrained by training 08:59
`or background. 08:59
` Q. Would one need to have an understanding of 08:59
`the paging -- of paging systems to be considered for 08:59
`a position? 08:59
` MR. TAYLOR: Objection; form. 08:59
` A. I don't think that would be a requirement. 08:59
`BY MR. TACHÉ: 08:59
` Q. Would one need to have an understanding of 08:59
`cellular networks to be considered one skilled in 08:59
`the art relating to the '428 patent? 08:59
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`
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` MR. TAYLOR: Objection; form. 08:59
` A. That would not be a primary requirement, 09:00
`no. 09:00
`BY MR. TACHÉ: 09:00
` Q. Is there -- are there any other special 09:00
`knowledge or skill required that you would consider 09:00
`necessary for one to be skilled in the art relating 09:00
`to the '428 patent? 09:00
` MR. TAYLOR: Objection; form. 09:00
` A. The '428 patent has many broad concepts 09:00
`expressed in it, and lots of disciplines would be -- 09:00
`would benefit from the execution of it, I'm sure, 09:00
`but I can't -- I can't think of any particular one 09:00
`that stands out. 09:00
`BY MR. TACHÉ: 09:00
` Q. Okay. I sort of have the same series of 09:00
`questions with respect to the '946 patent. In your 09:00
`own mind, can you explain what you would consider 09:00
`one skilled in the art to be relating to the '946 09:00
`patent? 09:00
` MR. TAYLOR: Objection; form. 09:00
` A. Well, again, that's conjecture on my part. 09:00
`I -- I would go back to the fact that there have 09:00
`been many skilled people who don't have particular 09:01
`educational backgrounds that would be very capable 09:01
`Page 281
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`BY MR. TACHÉ: 09:02
` Q. Prior to being -- prior to joining MTEL -- 09:02
`and I know we went through your educational 09:02
`background yesterday -- how much direct experience 09:02
`did you have in paging systems? 09:02
` A. I didn't have any direct experience in 09:02
`paging systems per se, only in electronics 09:02
`development, testing of systems. 09:02
` Q. During your days at MTEL, did the 09:02
`individuals named as inventors on either -- on the 09:02
`'428 patent have a common set of minimum educational 09:02
`requirements? 09:02
` A. Not to my knowledge. 09:02
` Q. So the named inventors did not all have 09:03
`four-year degrees? 09:03
` A. Well, I understood your question to say 09:03
`were there any requirements, and I'm saying I don't 09:03
`know that there were any requirements. So I'm not 09:03
`sure about their individual backgrounds. Many of 09:03
`them did have degrees, I know. 09:03
` Q. Do you know of anyone that's a named 09:03
`inventor on the '428 patent that didn't have a 09:03
`four-year degree? 09:03
` A. Let me -- let me refresh my list on that. 09:03
` Q. I believe that's Exhibit 3. 09:03
`Page 283
`
`of using this information. 09:01
`BY MR. TACHÉ: 09:01
` Q. The same question with respect to the '946 09:01
`patent as it relates to work experience. Is there a 09:01
`minimum requirement? 09:01
` MR. TAYLOR: Objection; form. 09:01
` A. I would say the same answer, that there 09:01
`have been many people in history in technology that 09:01
`have not had particular educational backgrounds that 09:01
`do quite well. And so I would not restrict their -- 09:01
`their involvement. 09:01
`BY MR. TACHÉ: 09:01
` Q. Okay. So an understanding of paging, 09:01
`two-way paging systems, or two-way paging networks 09:01
`would not be required from your perspective to be 09:01
`one skilled in the art? 09:01
` MR. TAYLOR: Objection; form. 09:01
` A. It would certainly be helpful, but not 09:01
`essential. 09:01
`BY MR. TACHÉ: 09:01
` Q. What about an understanding of cellular 09:02
`networks in terms of being one skilled in the art? 09:02
` MR. TAYLOR: Objection; form. 09:02
` A. Again, it would be good background but not 09:02
`essential. 09:02
`
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` A. Just a second. Well, I don't think I have 09:03
`Exhibit 3. 09:03
` Q. We have an extra copy, if that would help 09:03
`you. 09:04
` A. Okay. 09:04
` Q. We're also going to be asking the same 09:04
`questions with respect -- 09:04
` A. Okay. I did -- 09:04
` Q. -- to Exhibit 9 if that's -- 09:04
` A. You might want to get it. 09:04
` Q. -- really concurrent. 09:04
` THE WITNESS: Is that 3? 09:04
` MR. TAYLOR: That's 3. 09:04
` THE WITNESS: Oh, this is 3. All 09:04
`right. 09:04
` A. Masood Garahi did have a degree and -- 09:04
`BY MR. TACHÉ: 09:04
` Q. Do you happen to recall what that was in? 09:04
` A. No. It was a technical degree, but I 09:04
`don't know what the -- what the actual degree was. 09:04
` Pinter also had a degree, and I'm not 09:04
`sure what the degree was in. Gregory Pinter had a 09:04
`degree. 09:04
` John Hale, I am -- I am not certain 09:04
`about John. 09:04
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` Q. Do you know how much work experience John 09:04
`had prior to joining MTEL? 09:04
` A. No. 09:04
` Q. Was there anyone else named as a 09:04
`co-inventor on the '428 patent that, to your 09:04
`knowledge, did not have a degree other than 09:05
`Mr. Hale? 09:05
` A. That covers the list, so, no. 09:05
` Q. Thank you. If you could turn to 09:05
`Exhibit 9, which is the '946 patent. 09:05
` MR. TAYLOR: Let me take this one, 09:05
`just to keep everything. 09:05
` A. Oh, here it is. Exhibit 9? 09:05
`BY MR. TACHÉ: 09:05
` Q. 9, yes. 09:05
` A. Okay. 09:05
` Q. Thank you. If you could walk through the 09:05
`list of inventors named other than the ones already 09:05
`covered in the '428 patent, and let me know if any 09:05
`of them did or didn't have a degree. 09:05
` A. Dennis Cameron has a -- has a degree. 09:05
` Q. Do you happen to recall what that degree 09:05
`is in? 09:05
` A. It's in -- it's in some electronics 09:05
`related field, but I don't know the exact -- 09:05
`Page 285
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` A. He was in his -- he was older than his 09:07
`20's. 09:07
` Q. So is it fair to say that he would have 09:07
`had at least ten years work experience prior to 09:07
`joining MTEL? 09:07
` A. That would be an assumption on my part. I 09:07
`would -- I would think so, but I don't know. 09:07
` Q. If you had to characterize from your 09:07
`perspective who your contemporaries would have been 09:07
`at the time of the '428 and '946 inventions in terms 09:07
`of an educational background and a technical 09:07
`background, can you articulate that for me, please? 09:07
` MR. TAYLOR: Objection; form. 09:07
` A. The named inventors are certainly -- I 09:08
`would certainly be comfortable in their group in a 09:08
`technical forum. 09:08
`BY MR. TACHÉ: 09:08
` Q. And is it fair to say that at least the 09:08
`majority had at least a four-year degree from -- a 09:08
`four-year technical degree and/or commensurate work 09:08
`experience? 09:08
` MR. TAYLOR: Objection; form. 09:08
` A. Yes. 09:08
`BY MR. TACHÉ: 09:08
` Q. Would you consider your work experience 09:09
`Page 287
`
` Q. But it's a technical degree? 09:05
` A. It's a technical degree. 09:05
` Q. Thank you. 09:05
` A. Walt Roehr was a consultant. I'm not -- I 09:05
`can't recall what his educational background was. 09:05
` Dr. Petrovic had a degree in 09:05
`electrical engineering, a doctorate degree. 09:06
` Jai Bhaget had degrees in electrical 09:06
`engineering. 09:06
` Masood Garahi, I think we just 09:06
`covered him, he has a technical degree. 09:06
` David Ackerman, I don't know his 09:06
`educational background. 09:06
` Q. Are you familiar with Mr. Ackerman's work 09:06
`experience prior to joining MTEL? 09:06
` A. I'm familiar with some of his experience. 09:06
` Q. Was any of it technical based? 09:06
` A. Yes. He worked for the -- for the -- one 09:06
`of the big telcos out of New York City. One of his 09:06
`fortes was intelligent networks. 09:06
` Q. Do you -- do you recall how many years 09:06
`experience Mr. Ackerman had prior to joining MTEL? 09:06
` A. No. 09:07
` Q. Was he a man in his 20's when he joined 09:07
`MTEL? 09:07
`
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`and technical back -- technical education to be a 09:09
`typical sort of work experience and technical 09:09
`background of your peers at the time in question? 09:09
` MR. TAYLOR: Objection; form. 09:09
` A. I would have -- I would have no basis to 09:09
`really say that. As I said before, I would be 09:09
`comfortable in a forum involving them. 09:09
`BY MR. TACHÉ: 09:09
` Q. Thank you. 09:09
` MR. TACHÉ: Could you mark that? 09:09
` (Exhibit No. 15 marked) 09:09
`BY MR. TACHÉ: 09:10
` Q. If you could, please take a look at what's 09:10
`been marked as Exhibit 15 in front of you. I would 09:10
`represent that it's an Australian patent numbered 09:10
`AU-A-79030/87. 09:10
` And what I'd like to do is focus your 09:10
`attention on Page 15, Lines 15 through 29. 09:10
`Actually, I'm sorry. Page 15, Lines 15 through 34. 09:10
`And that continues to the top of Page 16, the first 09:10
`two lines. 09:10
` And then let me show you a second 09:10
`location, because I think it might be helpful, is to 09:11
`also take a look at Figure 2, which appears three or 09:11
`four pages from the back of the document. From the 09:11
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`very end of the document, Mr. Hays. 09:11
` A. The very end? 09:11
` Q. It's three or four pages from the back. 09:11
` MR. TAYLOR: Can we please 09:11
`double-check with the Bates number? 09:11
` MR. TACHÉ: Oh, sure. It's Bates 09:11
`number SAM -- oh, I'm sorry. In terms of 09:11
`identifying -- 09:11
` MR. TAYLOR: The specific page 09:11
`numbers, yes, please. 09:11
` MR. TACHÉ: The document is 09:11
`identified beginning on Bates number SAM00032396, 09:11
`and Page 15 appears on Bates number SAM00032418 -- 09:11
`I'm sorry, 2417 and 2418 are the page numbers I'd 09:11
`like Mr. Hays to look at. And Figure 2 appears on 09:11
`SAM00032515. 09:11
` MR. TAYLOR: Thank you. 09:12
` MR. TACHÉ: Thank you. 09:12
`BY MR. TACHÉ: 09:12
` Q. Did you find that okay, Mr. Hays? 09:12
` A. Yes. 09:12
` Q. If you could, take a look at those two 09:12
`pages of prose and then the figure, and let me know 09:12
`when you're ready. 09:12
` A. Okay. Okay. 09:12
`Page 289
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` Okay. So would you agree that this 09:16
`would have been published prior to the filing of 09:16
`your application for the '946 patent? 09:16
` MR. TAYLOR: Objection; form. 09:17
` A. You know, I'm not familiar with this, you 09:17
`know, Australian Patent Office, you know, how 09:17
`they -- how they do things. So the context of these 09:17
`dates, I just don't understand the process. 09:17
`BY MR. TACHÉ: 09:17
` Q. But you would agree it does say 09:17
`publication date? 09:17
` A. I would agree it says publication date, 09:17
`right. 09:17
` Q. Thank you. Let's turn back to Page 15. 09:17
`Again, it's Bates number ending in 2417. It's the 09:17
`original number I asked you to take a look at. 09:17
` A. Okay. 09:17
` Q. Have you read that section at the 09:17
`beginning -- beginning on Page 15 and ending on 09:17
`Page 16? 09:17
` A. Yes. 09:17
` Q. In your own words, can you describe what 09:17
`you've read and understand from what you've read? 09:17
` MR. TAYLOR: Objection; form. 09:17
` A. You know, again, taken out of context, you 09:17
`Page 291
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` Q. Let me correct, for the record, the patent 09:14
`number associated with Exhibit 15. It's actually 09:14
`Australian Patent No. 198779030. 09:14
` Have you seen or were you aware of 09:15
`the existence of the patent that's been identified 09:15
`as Exhibit 15 prior to today? 09:15
` A. I don't recall having seen this patent. 09:15
` Q. So you were not aware of this patent at 09:15
`the time your application was filed for the '946 09:15
`patent? 09:15
` A. I can't -- I can't recall the exact 09:15
`patents that I looked at, but -- I'm not aware of 09:15
`this one, but it's been 20 years. 09:15
` Q. Okay. If I could briefly call your 09:15
`attention to Bates number SAM00032400. It's a few 09:15
`pages from the beginning of the document. It ends 09:16
`in 2400. 09:16
` A. Okay. 09:16
` Q. Do you see under parenthetical 43 the 09:16
`publication date? And I must confess I don't know 09:16
`the Australian convention of dates, so I'm not sure 09:16
`if that's June 4th or the 6th of April, 1989. But 09:16
`do you see that date, Mr. Hays? 09:16
` A. Yeah. 1989, yeah. Is that '89 or -- 09:16
` Q. I believe that's 1989, yes. 09:16
`Page 290
`
`know, just what I read here, it talks about packet 09:17
`transmissions. It talks about CRC checks. It talks 09:17
`about error detection, and it talks about 09:18
`retransmission in certain cases where error exists. 09:18
`BY MR. TACHÉ: 09:18
` Q. Taking a look at the language on Pages 15 09:18
`and 16 of the Australian patent, Exhibit 15, and 09:18
`Figure 2 in that same patent, would you agree that 09:18
`it describes a system that looks for errors and then 09:18
`automatically retransmits other -- a portion of a 09:18
`message or the entire message, depending on whether 09:18
`a certain threshold is met? 09:18
` MR. TAYLOR: Objection; form. 09:18
` A. Well, again, trying to read this out of 09:18
`context is a bit awkward because I don't know what 09:18
`the greater context of this thing was. It does talk 09:19
`about transmissions package. It does talk about 09:19
`error control. 09:19
`BY MR. TACHÉ: 09:19
` Q. Mr. Hays, I'm not asking you to read it 09:19
`out of context. I'm simply pointing out sections of 09:19
`a particular patent. 09:19
` For purposes of what you read, would 09:19
`you agree that it describes the technology and the 09:19
`function that I've just articulated? 09:19
`Page 292
`Pages 289 to 292
`Veritext National Deposition & Litigation Services
`866 299-5127
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`MTel., Exhibit 2006, Aruba v. MTel., Page 6, IPR2016-00768
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