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`3
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` THE COURT: Good morning. Please, take your
`
`seats.
`
` I wanted to come out and discuss a few of the
`
`voir dire questions. There is nothing major. I have three
`
`questions, and I wanted to double-check and see if there
`
`were any issues that you might have.
`
`Do you have the voir dire script with you?
`
`So, Question No. 11 reads, Finjan, Inc.
`
`currently holds or has held equity in the following
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`companies, and it goes on. I really don't know why we need
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`to ask that question. Is there a particular reason that
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`this is going to help us understand this jury's potential,
`
`these jurors' potential fairness or impartiality?
`
`MR. ANDRE: Not from our point of view, Your
`
`Honor.
`
`time.
`
`THE COURT: I am trying to pare down and save
`
`There is a stock question in here, stock
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`ownership questions in here. It just seems a little
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`frivolous.
`
`Emanuel.
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`MR. NELSON: Your Honor, Dave Nelson, Quinn
`
`That one really goes more to something that you
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`may be dealing with at the end, which is, this is kind of
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`the way that they are claiming they might be entitled to an
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`4
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`09:08:08
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`09:08:12
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`injunction, that they have an ownership interest in these
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`companies. So if Your Honor is inclined to perhaps take
`
`Civil Action
`
`No. 10-593-GMS
`
` IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
` IN AND FOR THE DISTRICT OF DELAWARE
` - - -
`FINJAN, INC.,
`)
`
`)
` Plaintiff,
`)
`
`)
` v.
`)
`
`)
`)
`SYMANTEC CORP.,
`WEBROOT SOFTWARE, INC.,
`)
`WEBSENSE INC., and SOPHOS, INC., )
`
`)
` Defendants.
`)
` - - -
`
`Wilmington, Delaware
`Friday, November 30, 2012
`
`
`9:00 a.m.
`
`Day 1 of Trial
` - - -
`BEFORE: HONORABLE GREGORY M. SLEET, Chief Judge,
` and a Jury
`APPEARANCES:
`PHILIP A. ROVNER, ESQ.
`
`Potter Anderson & Corroon LLP
`
` -and-
`PAUL J. ANDRE, ESQ.,
`
`
`LISA KOBIALKI, ESQ.,
`
`JAMES HANNAH, ESQ.,
`
`HANNAH LEE, ESQ., and
`
`JONATHAN S. CAPLAN, ESQ.
`
`Kramer Levin
`
`(Redwood Shores, CA)
` Counsel for Plaintiff
`
`
`1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
`
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`08:47:39
`
`APPEARANCES CONTINUED:
`
`2
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
` DENISE SEASTONE KRAFT, ESQ.
` DLA Piper LLP (US)
` -and-
` JOHN ALLCOCK, ESQ.,
` KATHRYN RILEY GRASSO, ESQ., and
` SEAN CUNNINGHAM, ESQ.
` DLA Piper LLP (US)
` (San Diego, CA)
`
` Counsel for Defendant
` Sophos, Inc.
`
` MARYELLEN NOREIKA, ESQ.
` Morris Nichols Arsht & Tunnell LLP
` -and-
` JENNIFER A. KASH, ESQ., and
` DAVID NELSON, ESQ.
` Quinn Emanuel
` (San Francisco, CA)
`
` Counsel for Defendant
` Symantec Group
`
` THOMAS C. GRIMM, ESQ.
` Morris Nichols Arsht & Tunnell LLP
` -and-
` ANTHONY M. STIEGLER, ESQ., and
` JOHN KYLE, ESQ.
` Cooley LLP
` (San Diego, CA)
`
` Counsel for Websense Inc.
`
`4
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`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
` - - -
`
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`1 of 99 sheets
`
`09:08:16
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`09:08:19
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`09:08:21
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`09:08:27
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`09:08:27
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`09:08:34
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`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`09:08:41
`09:08:43 10
`09:08:48 11
`09:08:52 12
`09:08:59 13
`09:09:02 14
`09:09:07 15
`09:09:08 16
`09:09:13 17
`09:09:14 18
`09:09:16 19
`09:09:18 20
`09:09:19 21
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`09:09:26 23
`09:09:27 24
`09:09:31 25
`Page 1 to 4 of 255
`
`additional evidence on that question --
`
`THE COURT: You are right, counsel, that has to
`
`do with my decision. I am eliminating that. Thank you for
`
`that.
`
`I will introduce you all just ahead of Question
`
`No. 12. And then we will ask you to identify potential
`
`witnesses by your teams.
`
`I think No. 20 is repetitive of 9 through 10.
`
`If you take a look at that, Have you or someone close to you
`
`ever used any company's products, I think 9 through 10, you
`
`specifically asked about the use of such items and
`
`technology in those questions, in 9 and 10. No? Do you not
`
`see this as repetitive?
`
`MR. NELSON: 8, 9 and 10. They ask specifically
`
`about defendants' products.
`
`THE COURT: Yes.
`
`MR. STIEGLER: Your Honor, Tony Stiegler for
`
`Websense.
`
`The only difference I would see is 8, 9, and 10
`
`are specific only to the defendants' products where 20 is
`
`much broader.
`
`THE COURT: Everybody uses computer security.
`
`Is that going to help you identify fair and impartial
`12/01/2012 01:56:25 PM
`
`Sophos, Exhibit 1030, Page 1
`
`SOPHOS
`EXHIBIT 1017 - PAGE 0001
`
`

`

`496
`
`498
`
`Yesterday counsel asked you about extracting a list of
`
`Yes.
`
`In your opinion, is identifying a list of suspicious
`
`So, I mean, by identifying a list of operations, you
`
`09:12:27 1
`applicable.
`09:12:29 2 Q.
`09:12:33 3
`suspicious operations. Do you remember that?
`09:12:37 4 A.
`09:12:38 5 Q.
`09:12:40 6
`operations the same as extracting a list of operations?
`09:12:46 7 A.
`09:12:53 8
`point them out, so you extract, I would say that could be
`09:12:58 9
`considered equivalent.
`09:12:58 10 Q.
`09:13:01 11
`suspicious operations?
`09:13:04 12 A.
`09:13:12 13
`am not talking about a specific technology in particular.
`09:13:18 14
`09:13:24 15
`09:13:31 16
`09:13:33 17
`09:13:36 18
`09:13:39 19
`09:13:46 20
`09:13:47 21
`09:13:49 22
`09:13:51 23
`24
`09:13:54 25
`
`Could you apply behavior signature to identify
`
`So, I mean, again, I have to generalize a little. I
`
`But, of course, if you have this signature of behaviors that
`
`you match against an existing program, say, that this
`
`operation and this operation and this operation happened,
`
`against an existing program, in a way you are extracting
`
`these operations and you can realize that the signature
`
`matches and therefore you extract the behavior, yes.
`
`MR. ANDRE: Your Honor, I have no further
`
`questions for Dr. Vigna.
`
`THE COURT: Doctor, you are excused.
`
`THE WITNESS: Thank you very much, Your Honor.
`
`(Witness excused.)
`
`THE COURT: Does counsel need to see me before
`
`THE COURT: Are we good now?
`
`MR. NELSON: I hope so.
`
`THE COURT: It is important that you be able to
`
`see.
`
`MR. NELSON: I appreciate it.
`
`THE COURT: Mr. Andre.
`
`DIRECT EXAMINATION
`
`09:16:06 1
`09:16:08 2
`09:16:10 3
`09:16:12 4
`09:16:12 5
`09:16:14 6
`09:16:15 7
`09:16:20 8
`BY MR. ANDRE:
`09:16:22 9 Q.
`09:16:30 10
`record?
`09:16:30 11 A.
`09:16:19 12 Q.
`09:16:22 13
`Finjan?
`09:16:22 14 A.
`09:16:26 15 Q.
`09:16:30 16
`held?
`09:16:30 17 A.
`09:16:35 18
`position. Chairman of the Board. And my last phase was
`09:16:37 19
`board member.
`09:16:38 20 Q.
`09:16:42 21 A.
`09:16:50 22 Q.
`09:16:56 23
`in your book there as well if you want to see them in your
`09:16:59 24
`binder.
`09:17:05 25 A.
`
`Mr. Touboul, would you please state your name for the
`
`Yes. Shlomo Touboul.
`
`Mr. Touboul, how did you first become affiliated with
`
`I founded Finjan in January '96.
`
`And over your time at Finjan, what positions have you
`
`I think I started as the president. Moved to CEO
`
`And your current position with Finjan right now?
`
`I am a consultant to Finjan today.
`
`And I can show him on the screen, PTX-1. You have it
`
`Yes, I have it.
`
`the next witness?
`
`MR. ANDRE: No, Your Honor. I believe the
`
`497
`
`499
`
`Mr. Touboul, are you the inventor of the '194 patent
`
`issues we have will be for the --
`
`THE COURT: Is the answer no?
`
`MR. ANDRE: Yes.
`
`Yes, I do.
`
`THE COURT: Is that our setup over there or is
`
`that somebody's cell phone? Oh.
`
`Your Honor, at this time Finjan would like to
`
`MS. WALKER: Hearing aid.
`
`call Shlomo Touboul, the inventor of the two patents in
`
`suit.
`
`THE COURT: It's feedback from his hearing aid.
`
`Are you okay?
`
`THE COURT: All right.
`
`A JUROR: Yeah, I am fine.
`
`... SHLOMO TOUBOUL, having been duly sworn as a
`
`THE COURT: Sorry about that. Do we need a
`
` witness, was examined and testified as follows ...
`
`DIRECT EXAMINATION
`
` MR. NELSON: Your Honor, could we maybe move the
`
`podium just a little bit? There is not much of a window for
`
`me to see the witness.
`
`break for you to adjust that?
`
`A JUROR: Pardon me?
`
`THE COURT: Do you need break to adjust that?
`
`A JUROR: I am going to put it on.
`
`THE COURT: Counsel, the room, I thought it was
`
`Mr. Touboul, are you the sole inventor of the '194
`
`09:13:57 1
`09:13:58 2
`09:14:00 3
`09:14:04 4
`09:14:05 5
`09:14:06 6
`09:14:11 7
`09:14:14 8
`09:14:14 9
`09:14:15 10
`09:14:35 11
`09:14:46 12
`09:14:47 13
`09:15:26 14
`09:15:31 15
`09:15:33 16
`09:15:36 17
`09:15:38 18
`09:15:40 19
`09:15:42 20
`09:15:45 21
`09:15:45 22
`09:15:47 23
`09:15:50 24
`09:15:53 25
`probably.
`3 of 92 sheets
`
`09:17:08 1 Q.
`09:17:12 2
`listed at PTX-1?
`09:17:14 3 A.
`09:17:24 4
`09:17:27 5
`09:17:33 6
`09:17:34 7
`09:17:38 8
`09:17:40 9
`09:17:43 10
`09:17:49 11
`09:17:52 12
`09:17:53 13
`09:17:56 14
`09:17:59 15
`BY MR. ANDRE:
`09:18:00 16 Q.
`09:18:03 17
`patent?
`09:18:03 18 A.
`09:18:04 19 Q.
`09:18:10 20 A.
`09:18:11 21 Q.
`09:18:15 22
`patent as well?
`09:18:21 23 A.
`09:18:21 24 Q.
`09:18:26 25 A.
`Page 496 to 499 of 719
`
`working out pretty well yesterday.
`
`MR. NELSON: I couldn't see him all day
`
`yesterday.
`
`Honor.
`
`MR. ANDRE: I will not take it personally, Your
`
`THE COURT: Is there room to move it a slight
`
`bit to the left? If there is room, that is fine. I have no
`
`problem. Somebody else's view is going to be blocked
`
`Yes, I am.
`
`If you will turn to PTX-2.
`
`(Witness complies.)
`
`Mr. Touboul, are you the sole inventor of the '962
`
`Yes, I am.
`
`When did you file for patents for Finjan?
`
`When I -- when I started Finjan, I believed what we
`12/05/2012 05:05:10 PM
`
`Sophos, Exhibit 1030, Page 2
`
`SOPHOS
`EXHIBIT 1017 - PAGE 0002
`
`

`

`500
`
`502
`
`are doing at Finjan and what we intended to do at Finjan is
`
`all significant, and it was so early in the market I
`
`believed that later on, all the giant companies will come
`
`into that domain, and the only way to defend small startups,
`
`young startups was to file patents back then. It was not
`
`09:18:32 1
`09:18:35 2
`09:18:38 3
`09:18:41 4
`09:18:45 5
`09:18:48 6
`the first time I did it and I did it with Finjan, too.
`09:18:51 7 Q.
`09:18:53 8
`do you mean by that?
`09:18:54 9 A.
`09:18:56 10 Q.
`09:18:58 11
`patents for?
`12 A.
`09:18:59 13 Q.
`09:19:02 14
`later. Before we do, let's get a little background.
`09:19:05 15
`09:19:07 16 A.
`09:19:13 17
`if you can compare it the MIT of the United States.
`09:19:17 18 Q.
`09:19:20 19
`University?
`09:19:21 20 A.
`09:19:24 21 Q.
`09:19:27 22
`time period?
`09:19:28 23 A.
`09:19:29 24 Q.
`09:19:34 25
`pure science in the early '80s?
`
`When you say it's not the first time you did it, what
`
`Filing patent on my startup.
`
`So you had a company before Finjan that you filed
`
`Yes.
`
`And we will get back to Finjan and talk a little bit
`
`Where did you attend University?
`
`I study in the Technion Hafia in a Israel. It's like
`
`And what was your major course of study at the
`
`Computer science, BSC in computer science.
`
`And what type of -- what time frame was this? What
`
`The early '80s.
`
`So what type of course of study were you taking of
`
`collaboration, you need to have network. And when the
`
`network was introduced, I was building my company to deliver
`
`And did you develop any products at Shany?
`
`We did multiple products. I think the flagship was a
`
`desktop and every client of PC. Whenever the end user will
`
`have problems, if you remember the end days of M.S. Doss, we
`
`are talking a long time ago when you get those frustrating
`
`blue screens and you don't know what happened to your
`
`screen, so our system will take all the information about
`
`the problem you have and use the network to send it to the
`
`help desk so the help desk can help you figure out what
`
`happened wrong and help you to fix it. So that was the main
`
`09:20:59 1
`09:21:02 2
`09:21:06 3
`products that will help that field to get progressed.
`09:21:10 4 Q.
`09:21:12 5 A.
`09:21:17 6
`product we called Alert View, which basically we run every
`09:21:20 7
`09:21:23 8
`09:21:27 9
`09:21:30 10
`09:21:32 11
`09:21:34 12
`09:21:36 13
`09:21:40 14
`09:21:43 15
`product of Shany.
`09:21:45 16 Q.
`09:21:47 17
`anything to do with the computer security software industry?
`09:21:51 18 A.
`09:21:57 19 Q.
`09:22:00 20
`industry while you were at Shany?
`09:22:02 21 A.
`09:22:05 22 Q.
`09:22:08 23
`software when you were at Shany?
`09:22:10 24 A.
`09:22:13 25
`think that's the year that I started Shany, it was not a big
`
`Did any of the work that you were doing at Shany have
`
`No.
`
`Did you have any concerns about the computer software
`
`Did I have -- I am sorry. I didn't hear you well.
`
`Did you have any concerns with computer security
`
`I don't think so. First, security in '86, which I
`
`So I liked, from the early days, I liked very much
`
`issue at that time. And I was focusing on what I thought
`
`501
`
`503
`
`was the big issue, which was announcing the interocular
`
`And what did you do after you finished University?
`
`So my first real job was in company called Fibronics,
`
`What happened to Shany?
`
`Shany was acquired by Intel.
`
`And when did you start at Fibronics?
`
`I think '85. Around '85.
`
`And what did you do at Fibronics?
`
`I was a young engineer that got a lot of
`
`And did you go to work for Intel after they purchased
`
`Yes. Intel appointed me to run a business unit, the
`
`09:22:17 1
`09:19:36 1 A.
`09:22:20 2
`09:19:38 2
`local Internet communication, operating systems, databases.
`09:22:23 3
`09:19:43 3
`networks, and security was not yet an issue of PCs.
`And I would focus and that field of study.
`09:22:26 4 Q.
`09:19:45 4 Q.
`09:22:27 5 A.
`09:19:49 5 A.
`09:22:31 6 Q.
`09:19:55 6
`doing communication in Israel.
`09:22:34 7
`09:19:58 7 Q.
`your company?
`09:22:36 8 A.
`09:20:02 8 A.
`09:22:40 9
`09:20:04 9 Q.
`network management business of Intel of about 300 people,
`09:22:45 10
`09:20:07 10 A.
`and I was working for Intel.
`09:22:47 11 Q.
`09:20:11 11
`responsibility for engineer. I was responsible for
`09:22:49 12 A.
`09:20:13 12
`09:22:52 13 Q.
`09:20:19 13
`09:22:54 14 A.
`09:20:22 14
`the communication layers, I was designing system for that.
`09:22:58 15
`09:20:26 15 Q.
`You know, in big companies like Intel are, you have many
`09:23:01 16
`09:20:29 16 A.
`09:23:04 17
`09:20:32 17 Q.
`09:23:08 18
`09:20:33 18 A.
`09:23:11 19
`09:20:36 19 Q.
`our plans, and I decided to move on and I didn't continue.
`09:23:16 20 Q.
`09:20:40 20
`Shany?
`09:23:19 21 A.
`09:20:40 21 A.
`09:23:23 22
`09:20:45 22
`get, you know, play with my hobbies and have some free time,
`local area networks. So if you remember in the early '80s,
`09:23:26 23
`09:20:48 23
`09:23:29 24
`09:20:52 24
`09:20:55 25
`09:23:33 25
`and interact between them. In order to get functionality,
`12/05/2012 05:05:10 PM
`Page 500 to 503 of 719
`
`development of the communication between IBM mainframes
`
`terminal communication and the terminals themselves, so all
`
`I stayed until mid '95.
`
`Why did you leave?
`
`And how long did you stay at Intel?
`
`And what did you do after you left Fibronix?
`
`I found my first company, Shany.
`
`How do you spell that?
`
`S-H-A-N-Y.
`
`And what was the idea that you had when you started
`
`Around mid '95, Intel, there was a reorganization.
`
`reorganizations once in a while and that was another one,
`
`but that one required me to relocate to Utah from Israel,
`
`and on a personal level, on a family level, it didn't fit
`
`And what did you do after leaving Intel?
`
`At the middle of the '80s, it was a big renovation by
`
`Well, I thought for the first time I had some time to
`
`we start, we have personal computers, that's why we call
`
`and my hobbies are computers, that's what I like to do, I
`
`them "PCs." In the middle of the '80s, we start to connect
`
`get blamed by my wife so many times but that's what I like,
`
`so I bought a few computers and I started to reprogram and
`4 of 92 sheets
`
`Sophos, Exhibit 1030, Page 3
`
`SOPHOS
`EXHIBIT 1017 - PAGE 0003
`
`

`

`504
`
`506
`
`learn again all different new stuff which came which was
`
`What kind of new stuff came out in '95?
`
`'95 was exiting for two aspects. First, the Internet
`
`Internet, and that was a big use.
`
`But what really "drived" my attention more than
`
`anything else was the appearance of Java. Sun Microsystems
`
`introduced the Java computing language in '95, which was
`
`very exiting in language by itself, but on top of that, also
`
`introduced the revolution, what I thought was the revolution
`
`in the computing industry that would change the world, and
`
`if you look now back to '95, you understand it really
`
`happened, and I was getting so excited with that, that I was
`
`And what was it about Java that you felt was so
`
`09:23:37 1
`09:23:40 2
`very exciting to do in '95.
`09:23:44 3 Q.
`09:23:45 4 A.
`09:23:49 5
`become commercial and everybody could start to connect to
`09:23:52 6
`09:23:55 7
`09:23:58 8
`09:24:02 9
`09:24:05 10
`09:24:09 11
`09:24:12 12
`09:24:14 13
`09:24:17 14
`09:24:20 15
`focusing on studying Java and learning Java.
`09:24:24 16 Q.
`09:24:26 17
`revolutionary that it was going to change the computing
`09:24:30 18
`world?
`09:24:30 19 A.
`09:24:34 20
`would a person in '95 looking at a computer, if you would
`09:24:39 21
`09:24:44 22
`09:24:46 23
`09:24:49 24
`09:24:52 25
`
`So we need to go back to '95 and think about what
`
`like to get an extra functionality or education. In '95, if
`
`you wanted to get a new application running on your
`
`computer, on your desktop, you need to obtain a copy of the
`
`install product and then run the install on your -- it
`
`wasn't Windows, it was M.S. Doss, and Windows 95 came up a
`
`think of them in order to infect your computer, they need --
`
`you need to get an infected file and bring it to your
`
`computer, but now infection become legal. Every Java code
`
`coming to your machine is infecting your machine. So the
`
`name of the game is infection all the time. How do you
`
`defend? How do you know if a piece of code is a friend or
`
`foe? How can you do the -- tell the difference?
`
`So, you know, that was so exciting to me and
`
`And after you made them -- once you learned Java --
`
`Yes.
`
`-- what did that lead you to?
`
`That was funny. First, Sun Microsystems, the owner of
`
`09:26:22 1
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`that's why I was focusing on that domain in '95.
`09:26:53 10 Q.
`09:26:59 11 A.
`09:27:01 12 Q.
`09:27:03 13 A.
`09:27:07 14
`Java in early '95, in order to promote Java, announced he
`09:27:11 15
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`had a competition with $1 million prize for the best Java
`
`application that would be written in '95. But it's not the
`
`$1 million in cash that you get, but you get Sun Microsystem
`
`computers which vary for $1 million that you can decide to
`
`who to contribute, a school or some university that would
`
`contribute.
`
`So it was very attractive to me, so I said, I am
`
`going to utilities my new knowledge to build a nice
`
`application to submit.
`
`So I started to build an application. As I
`
`build application, I am seeing more and more how the problem
`
`505
`
`507
`
`little bit later. There was some early version of that,
`
`Windows 1, 2, and 3, but you still need to install it.
`
`Once you install it and finish with that
`
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`09:29:02 25
`huge risk because, because viruses, until that time, if you
`5 of 92 sheets
`Page 504 to 507 of 719
`
`process, you need to alt control delete, if you remember
`
`those awful buttons, to restart the machine, and only after
`
`the restart you would have the new tooling on your machine.
`
`With Java, you can put that aside. From now on,
`
`with Java, you don't need all of that in many aspects. One
`
`will look before -- before the Java revolution, if you would
`
`take your browser in '95, before Java, you connect to a
`
`server like was demonstrated here, you would get text, you
`
`would get graphics, you would jump from one picture to
`
`another page to a different service, but that's in. That
`
`cannot do a lot of harm to you.
`
`When Java came, you suddenly started to get code
`
`coming to your machine, so the code would travel for the
`
`first time to your machine, so forget about installing,
`
`forget about restarting your machine. The code would come
`
`to your machine and you have no idea what's happened.
`
`That's amazing because productivity can jump so
`
`quickly. Here it's happening finally. When I was a
`
`student, my professors talked about this with computing and
`
`now suddenly I see it's happening, so it's very exiting.
`
`But at the same token, it was bringing such a
`
`is even bigger than I initially thought. I said, wait a
`
`second, let's put aside that contest and start to focus on
`
`how can we make sure that people enjoy the productivity of
`
`that new application without taking the risks by eliminating
`
`that huge risk that is associated with it.
`
`So I start to think about, okay, what kind of
`
`new solution, because the existing solution would never be
`
`able to apply to that new problem because when those new
`
`solutions came, we didn't have that problem. You know, it's
`
`a new dimension of problem. You need a new dimension of
`
`solution.
`
`So I was starting to sit and think: What may be
`
`the solution? I drove some ideas. I did some feasibility
`
`tests and slowly and slowly I was trying to crystalize a new
`
`idea of how to --
`
`MR. NELSON: Your Honor, I hate to interrupt.
`
`It's becoming very difficult when we have a big, long
`
`narratives, so if we could punctuate with some questions and
`
`we might able to interpose some objections and maybe a
`
`little clearer record?
`
`THE COURT: Mr. Andre, the objection is somewhat
`
`well taken. I would like to reduce the narrative aspect.
`
`But some of it is unavoidable, I understand that, okay, so
`
`if you can intersperse with questions more frequently, I
`
`think, is a reasonable request to give people an opportunity
`12/05/2012 05:05:10 PM
`
`Sophos, Exhibit 1030, Page 4
`
`SOPHOS
`EXHIBIT 1017 - PAGE 0004
`
`

`

`508
`
`510
`
`to object.
`
`MR. ANDRE: And, Your Honor, Mr. Touboul has a
`
`hard time with English --
`
`THE COURT: I appreciate that, but counsel
`
`points out that they may want the opportunity to interpose
`
`an objection a time or two and it's difficult to do that
`
`without appearing rude and all of the things that you
`
`lawyers worry about. Okay?
`
`MR. ANDRE: I will do my best, Your Honor.
`
`Thank you.
`
`So you stated that in 1995, you recognized that the
`
`09:29:06 1
`09:29:06 2
`09:29:08 3
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`09:29:12 5
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`09:29:23 9
`09:29:24 10
`09:29:25 11
`BY MR. ANDRE:
`09:29:29 12 Q.
`09:29:38 13
`existing security solutions would not work for Java.
`09:29:41 14
`Correct?
`09:29:41 15 A.
`09:29:42 16 Q.
`09:29:43 17 A.
`09:29:50 18
`relying on the list of known threats, and we are trying to
`09:29:55 19
`09:29:58 20
`09:30:02 21
`09:30:06 22
`09:30:09 23
`09:30:13 24
`09:30:18 25
`
`Right.
`
`And why is that?
`
`Because in '95, the existing solutions would be
`
`find, if a file is infected by a virus, using that list and
`
`using maybe some infection code, remember that in '95, a
`
`virus need to have infection code in order to infect.
`
`After Java, you don't need that infection code.
`
`All the effort in finding infection code becomes obsolete
`
`because it's very legal to infect and it's a day-to-day
`
`operation to infect.
`
`Exactly.
`
`Do you know the date when you had it crystallized in
`
`It's like 12, 13 years, I can't tell exactly which
`
`So after you formed Finjan and you hired these two
`
`The product name was SurfinBoard, the first client
`
`Why did you name it SurfinBoard?
`
`I am sorry. I don't hear too well.
`
`Why did you name the product SurfinBoard?
`
`Well, you know, it was a combination of surfing and
`
`09:32:03 1
`before you founded Finjan in January '96?
`09:32:06 2 A.
`09:32:06 3 Q.
`09:32:09 4
`your mind before you founded Finjan?
`09:32:12 5 A.
`09:32:14 6
`date. But it was before I was founding Finjan and once I
`09:32:18 7
`had everything in my mind, I founded the company.
`09:32:20 8 Q.
`09:32:28 9
`young engineers to write code, you state that you had Finjan
`09:32:34 10
`SurfinBoard. What is SurfinBoard?
`09:32:38 11 A.
`09:32:42 12
`product.
`09:32:42 13 Q.
`09:32:44 14 A.
`09:32:46 15 Q.
`09:32:49 16 A.
`09:32:53 17
`dashboard. The idea was, a dashboard, when you surf, you
`09:32:57 18
`09:33:00 19
`combined it and called it SurfinBoard.
`09:33:02 20 Q.
`09:33:06 21
`you name it?
`09:33:08 22 A.
`09:33:15 23
`And the Sun Microsystems developer, all the different coffee
`09:33:21 24
`09:33:23 25
`
`have the mobile controls, so you can control it. So I
`
`When you formed the new company in January, what did
`
`Finjan, yes, first, Java was named on the Java beans.
`
`makers they had, they really liked the Java. It was their
`
`big thing from Java coffee and they named their technology
`
`509
`
`511
`
`And you said that you built a, I think I understood
`
`09:33:26 1
`09:30:19 1 Q.
`09:33:30 2
`09:30:23 2
`you correctly, you built a prototype to do a feasibility
`09:33:35 3
`09:30:27 3
`test to see if your idea would work?
`09:33:40 4
`09:30:30 4 A.
`09:33:44 5
`09:30:34 5
`back then was to, once I identified a problem, to try to
`09:33:47 6
`09:30:38 6
`09:33:50 7
`09:30:41 7
`09:33:52 8
`09:30:45 8
`09:33:56 9
`09:30:48 9
`09:33:59 10
`09:30:52 10
`and embark on a new invention, and that's what happened.
`09:34:02 11
`09:30:57 11 Q.
`09:34:06 12
`09:31:11 12
`tests, what was that prototype?
`09:34:07 13
`09:31:17 13 A.
`09:34:11 14
`09:31:20 14
`just built a prototype and I registered the company in
`09:34:14 15
`09:31:24 15
`09:34:14 16
`09:31:33 16
`called SurfinBoard.
`09:34:15 17
`09:31:34 17 Q.
`09:34:37 18
`09:31:36 18 A.
`09:34:38 19
`09:31:39 19
`I established -- Finjan wanted to realize a solution. I
`09:34:40 20
`09:31:42 20
`09:34:43 21
`09:31:45 21
`09:34:55 22
`09:31:50 22
`09:34:57 23
`09:31:52 23
`09:34:59 24
`09:31:56 24
`me build the first product, which was the client product.
`09:31:59 25 Q.
`09:35:03 25
`You said you had this idea crystallized in your mind
`12/05/2012 05:05:10 PM
`Page 508 to 511 of 719
`
`Right. The way I have done my couple of invention
`
`come with a solution, then test my solution and see if, in
`
`different places, it's really solid and can hold the water.
`
`So for those points, I will do feasibility test,
`
`and once I am convinced my solution is good, we will merge
`
`And the prototype you built for your feasibility
`
`I don't remember exactly the date and what I did. I
`
`January '96 then moved to develop client software, which we
`
`Was the your first client product?
`
`Yes, SurfinBoard was our first client product. In '96
`
`started a company. I hired two young engineers, not
`
`engineers, high school developers, that knew Java, I
`
`couldn't find developers that know Java. It was that new.
`
`But I recognized two young high school students who helped
`
`Java. And Finjan in the Middle East is a term which is a
`
`container of coffee, and for me, it so nicely fit because we
`
`would like to help Sun Microsystems to serve Java in a safe
`
`manner and so that the people can benefit from the coffee.
`
`If I leave the coffee without the pot, you can't drink it.
`
`But with Finjan, you can drink it very safely.
`
`So that was the idea of Finjan. That is why we
`
`named the company Finjan.
`
`MR. ANDRE: Your Honor, we have some exhibits
`
`that we would like to put into his binder. Is it okay if I
`
`approach? And into the Court's as well. We have some
`
`exhibits as well.
`
`THE COURT: Into the jury's binder?
`
`MR. ANDRE: Yes -- not in the jury's binder,
`
`Your Honor.
`
`THE COURT: Sure.
`
`Which binder for the Court are you talking
`
`about?
`
`MR. ANDRE: This is the first binder that has
`
`three witnesses' names on it.
`
`THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
`
`MR. ANDRE: While we pull those together, I can
`
`go to the projector on the screen.
`
`Why don't we go to Exhibit JTX-8.
`
`BY MR. ANDRE:
`
`6 of 92 sheets
`
`Sophos, Exhibit 1030, Page 5
`
`SOPHOS
`EXHIBIT 1017 - PAGE 0005
`
`

`

`512
`
`514
`
`Mr. Touboul, I will get you a hard copy of this. In
`
`Do you recognize what has been marked as JTX-8?
`
`Yes, I do.
`
`What is this?
`
`It's a press release announcing SurfinBoard, our
`
`And as of July 1996, did you have a client application
`
`Well, I don't remember if I have the exact date. But
`
`09:35:03 1 Q.
`09:35:06 2
`the meantime, you can look on the computer screens.
`09:35:08 3
`09:35:15 4 A.
`09:35:16 5 Q.
`09:35:17 6 A.
`09:35:22 7
`client product, in July 29, 1996.
`09:35:25 8 Q.
`09:35:35 9
`that was functioning?
`09:35:38 10 A.
`09:35:43 11
`by that press release, yes, that is the date where we were
`09:35:47 12
`announcing the release of the client product.
`09:35:49 13 Q.
`09:35:54 14
`release of SurfinBoard, under that it says Industry's first
`09:35:59 15
`09:36:02 16
`09:36:04 17 A.
`09:36:05 18 Q.
`09:36:08 19
`SurfinBoard in July of 1996 it was the first Java security
`09:36:11 20
`product?
`09:36:11 21 A.
`09:36:16 22
`then when we talked about it, people even had a hard time
`09:36:20 23
`09:36:24 24
`anything else like that in the industry.
`09:36:26 25 Q.
`
`If you look at the headline for the Finjan software
`
`Java security product for the worldwide Web.
`
`Do you see that?
`
`Yes, I do.
`
`Was it your understanding that when you released
`
`Yes. That's my understanding and my belief. Back
`
`understanding what we were talking about. We couldn't see
`
`If you look at the second paragraph, it states,
`
`What is this document?
`
`That's the press release announcing our first gateway
`
`And what was the difference between your SurfinBoard
`
`09:37:57 1 Q.
`09:37:59 2 A.
`09:38:02 3
`product, SurfinGate, in November 18, 1996.
`09:38:06 4 Q.
`09:38:11 5
`product in July '96 and the SurfinGate product in November
`09:38:15 6
`'96?
`09:38:15 7 A.
`09:38:19 8
`would like to have multiple lines of defense. Look at the
`09:38:24 9
`09:38:27 10
`09:38:29 11
`09:38:32 12
`09:38:35 13
`09:38:40 14
`09:38:42 15
`09:38:45 16
`09:38:50 17
`09:38:53 18
`09:38:56 19
`09:38:57 20
`09:39:01 21
`09:39:05 22
`09:39:08 23
`09:39:11 24
`09:39:13 25
`
`Right. If you think about security in general, you
`
`money that the bank holds. It would be held in a safe, and
`
`there will be a guard in the door of the bank. We have
`
`multiple lines of defense. Now, the principle is you want
`
`to have different types of technology or operations in each
`
`line of defense. So the guard will look at people and the
`
`safe will block people from reaching the assets.
`
`By the same token, what we have come up with in
`
`'96 was presenting two lines of defense. One of them is the
`
`client, which is the applet got into my machine, my
`
`computer, I will prevent it from doing malicious acts in run
`
`time, in realtime.
`
`But with your corporations, wouldn't it be nice
`
`to stop the threat at the door, at the point where the
`
`corporation connects to the Internet? That was SurfinGate.
`
`It was a product that was like guarding the connection to
`
`the Internet for the company. And if you find something
`
`malicious at that level, it will stop it even from entering
`
`513
`
`515
`
`09:36:34 1
`09:36:39 2
`09:36:43 3
`09:36:48 4
`09:36:48 5
`09:36:50 6 A.
`09:36:50 7 Q.
`09:36:54 8
`functionality of SurfinBoard back in July of 1996?
`09:36:57 9 A.
`09:37:01 10
`described earlier, was that when Java applet was getting
`09:37:04 11
`09:37:07 12
`09:37:10 13
`09:37:15 14
`09:37:17 15
`09:37:18 16
`09:37:21 17
`09:37:24 18
`09:37:27 19
`09:37:29 20
`that, that it is happening, and prevent it from happening.
`09:37:32 21 Q.
`09:37:37 22 A.
`09:37:38 23 Q.
`09:37:53 24
`JTX-542. Mr. Touboul, do you recognize this document