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`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` ____________________________
` APPLE INC.,
` Petitioner
` v.
` VIRNETX, INC.,
` Patent Owner
` _____________________________
` Case IPR2014-00237
` Case IPR2014-00238
` Patent No. 8,504,697
` _____________________________
`
` DEPOSITION OF MICHAEL FRATTO
` Washington, D.C.
` August 14, 2014
`
`Reported by: Mary Ann Payonk
`Job No. 83382
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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`Apple Inc. v. SAIC & VirnetX
`IPR2014-00237 & IPR2014-00238
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1081, p. 1
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`Page 2
`
` Thursday, August 14, 2014
` 9:00 a.m.
`
` Deposition of MICHAEL FRATTO, held at
`the offices of Sidley Austin, 1501 K Street,
`NW, Washington, DC, pursuant to Notice
`before Mary Ann Payonk, Nationally Certified
`Realtime Reporter and Notary Public of the
`District of Columbia, Commonwealth of Virginia,
`States of Maryland and New York.
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`Apple Inc. v. SAIC & VirnetX
`IPR2014-00237 & IPR2014-00238
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1081, p. 2
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`Page 3
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` APPEARANCES:
` ON BEHALF OF VIRNETX INC.:
` NAVEEN MODI
` JOSEPH PALYS
` DANIEL ZEILBERGER
` PAUL HASTINGS
` 875 15th Street, NW
` Washington, DC 20005
`
` ON BEHALF OF APPLE INC.:
` SCOTT BORDER
` JEFFREY KUSHAN
` SIDLEY AUSTIN
` 1501 K Street, NW
` Washington, DC 20005
`
` ALSO PRESENT:
` Jason Stach (By phone)
`
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`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple Inc. v. SAIC & VirnetX
`IPR2014-00237 & IPR2014-00238
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1081, p. 3
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
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`Page 4
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`MICHAEL FRATTO,
` called as a witness, having been duly
` sworn, was examined and testified as
` follows:
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. MODI:
` Q. Good morning, Mr. Fratto.
` A. Good morning.
` Q. How are you today?
` A. Fine. Yourself?
` Q. Good, thanks.
` Can you state your full name for the
`record?
` A. It's Michael Fratto.
` Q. What is your address?
` A. 105 Marion Avenue, Syracuse,
`New York.
` Q. Have you ever been deposed before?
` A. I have not.
` Q. Have you testified in court before?
` A. I have not.
` Q. You understand you are under oath
`today?
` A. Yes, I do.
` Q. And you also understand that I'll be
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple Inc. v. SAIC & VirnetX
`IPR2014-00237 & IPR2014-00238
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1081, p. 4
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
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`Page 5
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`asking you questions and the questions will be
`transcribed by the court reporter --
` A. Yes, sir.
` Q. -- and the answers?
` We will be taking breaks
`periodically, but if there's a pending
`question, I would ask that you answer that
`before we take a break. Is that fair?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Your lawyer may object today. You
`have to answer anyway unless he instructs you
`not to answer.
` Do you understand that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. If you don't understand a question,
`please let me know. I'll try my best to
`rephrase it. But if not, I'm going to assume
`you understand it. Is that fair?
` A. Yes.
` Q. I'm really bad at this. I'll try my
`best. We will have to try our best not to
`speak over each other today. Is that --
` A. Yes.
` Q. You understand that?
` Do you have any questions before we
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple Inc. v. SAIC & VirnetX
`IPR2014-00237 & IPR2014-00238
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1081, p. 5
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
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`Page 6
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`begin?
` A. I do not.
` Q. Any reason you cannot testify
`completely and accurately today?
` A. No.
` Q. What did you do to prepare for your
`deposition today?
` A. I read over my declarations and the
`references that the board instituted, as well
`as the '697 patent.
` Q. Did you talk to anyone?
` A. Conferred with counsel.
` Q. Who was that?
` A. Mr. Border, Mr. Kushan, and Tom
`Brown.
` Q. Okay. So all Sidley attorneys?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Anyone other than those three?
` A. Just those three.
` Q. How long did you prepare for your
`deposition?
` A. I probably spent upwards of 80 hours,
`perhaps.
` Q. You said 80 hours?
` A. Yes.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple Inc. v. SAIC & VirnetX
`IPR2014-00237 & IPR2014-00238
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1081, p. 6
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`Page 7
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` Q. And this was during the course of how
`long? For how many days was this?
` A. So it was actually spread out. It
`was a couple hours a day for the last, I think,
`six weeks when I was notified that I'd be
`deposed.
` Q. And how long did you meet with your
`attorneys to prepare for your deposition?
` A. The last two days.
` Q. Did you bring anything with you today
`to help you testify?
` A. I did not.
` Q. Can you tell me about your education
`since high school?
` A. Sure. How much detail do you want me
`to get into?
` Q. Why don't you just give me high level
`for now, and we can follow up if necessary.
` A. Okay. So I went to -- when I was 21,
`I started going to junior college in Florida.
`Went for two years, ended up transferring to
`Towson State University. Went to Towson State
`for a couple of years, moved to New York. Went
`to a junior college in preparation of going --
`in preparation for going to Syracuse
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple Inc. v. SAIC & VirnetX
`IPR2014-00237 & IPR2014-00238
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1081, p. 7
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`Page 8
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`University, then I got my degree at Syracuse
`University.
` Q. And that was in 2001?
` A. Yes. Yeah, that was when the degree
`was conferred, yeah. I think.
` Q. When did you start going to the
`college in Florida?
` A. If I recall, it was 1984.
` Q. And what did you study?
` A. It was a general curriculum in
`preparation for going on to a four-year degree,
`so basic math, writing, science.
` Q. So that was for two years you said, I
`believe.
` A. For two years, yes.
` Q. And then you also said you went to
`Towson State; correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. And when was that?
` A. I don't recall the dates offhand. I
`think it was somewhere late '80s, early '90s, I
`believe.
` Q. And what did you study there?
` A. I was majoring in philosophy.
` Q. And how long did you go to Towson
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple Inc. v. SAIC & VirnetX
`IPR2014-00237 & IPR2014-00238
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1081, p. 8
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`Page 9
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`State?
` A. I think it was three years, maybe,
`all told, as far as I recall.
` Q. Did you end up getting a degree in
`philosophy?
` A. I did not.
` Q. Any other -- actually, let's go to
`Syracuse. What was your degree in at Syracuse?
` A. It was -- actually, it's -- it was
`misentered in the declaration. It's a BA in
`information science and technology. I
`mentioned it was a BS. That was a typo, a
`misprint.
` Q. And how long did you go to Syracuse?
` A. If I recall, it was two years to get
`the degree.
` Q. And what type of courses did you take
`at Syracuse?
` A. There were a variety of courses
`covering information technology, networking,
`systems analysis, as well as some general
`courses to fill out, you know, electives and to
`fill in other requirements, advanced writing.
` Q. And when did you start at Syracuse?
` A. I believe it was 1995, if I recall
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple Inc. v. SAIC & VirnetX
`IPR2014-00237 & IPR2014-00238
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1081, p. 9
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`Page 10
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`correctly.
` Q. So you went there approximately for
`six years?
` A. No. Actually, I went for two years.
`I completed all my course work in '97. I
`just -- I had some paperwork to submit which I
`just kept forgetting to submit until 2001 or
`whenever the degree was conferred.
` Q. So after 1997, you did not take any
`courses at Syracuse?
` A. Correct.
` Q. What paperwork did you have to
`submit?
` A. I don't recall, honestly.
` Q. Any other education other than what
`you've told me so far?
` A. I took a training course probably in
`'98 or '99 given by Cisco. It was their
`introduction to Cisco routers. That was a
`week-long course that I took in New York. No
`certification or anything came out of it, and
`that's everything.
` Q. And how long was that course?
` A. It was a week. It was five days.
` Q. You said this was on routers?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple Inc. v. SAIC & VirnetX
`IPR2014-00237 & IPR2014-00238
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1081, p. 10
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`Page 11
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` A. Yes.
` Q. What was the reason you changed from
`philosophy to information technology, if any?
` A. Well, there wasn't a reason to switch
`from one to the other specifically. I mean, I
`just stopped taking courses at Towson. I was
`in my final semester. I lost interest in the
`topic. I realized it wasn't a career I wanted
`to pursue. I did a few other things in between
`and decided I wanted to move into information
`technology, so that's when I went to Syracuse
`University.
` Q. So that was in 1995?
` A. In '95, yes.
` Q. What year did you graduate from high
`school?
` A. I didn't. I have a GED that was
`awarded in 1983 maybe, I think.
` Q. Let's talk about your job since high
`school.
` Can you sort of give me a high-level
`overview of your jobs since high school?
` A. Since high school?
` Q. Yes.
` A. I was in the Navy for four years,
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple Inc. v. SAIC & VirnetX
`IPR2014-00237 & IPR2014-00238
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1081, p. 11
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`Page 12
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`from 1979 to 1983. After that, I held a
`variety of odd jobs. I don't remember the
`dates. I mean, I worked at a Meals on Wheels
`factory. I worked at a print shop. Actually,
`two print shops. I worked at a video
`warehouse, a video store managing a warehouse.
`I was a bartender, bartender, waiter, bar
`manager, etc.
` I owned a commercial cleaning
`business for a year. I worked for a storage
`company for a couple of years. I did some
`consulting, some IT consulting. This would
`have been early '90s at this point.
` I worked in a carpet store when I
`moved to central New York. Then while I was
`going to school I started freelancing in
`Network Computing, was hired in Network
`Computing, and stayed there for 15 years until
`my current position. I think that about sums
`it up.
` Q. And your current position is with
`which company?
` A. I'm a principal analyst with Current
`Analysis. They want me to make it clear that
`my opinions are my own and don't reflect the
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple Inc. v. SAIC & VirnetX
`IPR2014-00237 & IPR2014-00238
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1081, p. 12
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`Page 13
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`company.
` Q. In terms of computers, what would you
`say your first job was?
` A. I was -- back in the early '90s, I
`was doing some consulting with some small
`businesses.
` Q. And what did you do as part of that
`consulting?
` A. Remote office automation, so
`scripting, gluing programs together and etc.
` Q. When you said "remote office
`automation," what does that mean?
` A. At the time, I was writing programs
`that would pull information out of a computer
`system on a periodic basis, typically nightly,
`and then reformat that data into -- sorry,
`format that could be consumed by another, so
`taking -- basically, just automating that
`process. Was also doing some automation around
`distributing notices, you know, to multiple
`offices, so things of that nature.
` Q. And you said you wrote programs.
`What language were they in?
` A. So back then, the programs would have
`been written in, if I -- again, I'm recalling.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple Inc. v. SAIC & VirnetX
`IPR2014-00237 & IPR2014-00238
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1081, p. 13
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`Page 14
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`This is 20, 17 years ago, 20 years ago. C, the
`C language. Pascal, perhaps. And then there
`was some scripting languages for some
`communication programs, packages. I don't
`recall the name.
` Q. How did you learn those languages?
` A. Self-taught.
` Q. Are you familiar with any languages
`today?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Which ones?
` A. C, Pascal, Turbo Pascal, PERL, PHP,
`JAVA, JavaScript, a little bit of Python. And
`then there are a couple of scripting languages,
`shell scripting, couple different shell --
`scripting languages within shells themselves.
` Q. So you can write programs in these
`languages?
` A. Yes.
` Q. In every single one of them?
` A. Yes. I probably wouldn't be able to
`sit down and bang one out without looking at
`references, but --
` Q. You also mentioned scripting. Can
`you tell us a little bit more about scripting
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple Inc. v. SAIC & VirnetX
`IPR2014-00237 & IPR2014-00238
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1081, p. 14
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`Page 15
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`in your job, in the consulting job that you do?
` A. Certainly. So scripting would have
`been using -- at that time, it would have been
`DOS batch files, which just basically glues
`together MS DOS commands and programs running
`in MS DOS into a script.
` So there's -- there are some control
`functions like loops and whatnot that are in
`there, but really, it's really more whatever
`you would type on the command line, I just take
`those and put them into a batch file and put
`some logic around them, so --
` Q. So like an autoexec.bat?
` A. That would be an example of a batch
`file, yes.
` Q. And who was this consulting for?
` A. They were for a variety of companies.
`They were all small. I don't remember who they
`were at this point. There were some small
`offices. There was a storage company; there
`was an insurance company. I don't remember the
`names offhand.
` Q. So I believe on your CV you list that
`as 1987 to 1992 as the consulting job. Would
`that be fair, sort of the consulting that you
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple Inc. v. SAIC & VirnetX
`IPR2014-00237 & IPR2014-00238
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1081, p. 15
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`Page 16
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`did, the scripting and remote office
`automation?
` A. If that was listed in the CV, yes.
` Q. I believe your CV lists it from 1987
`to 1992. Does that sound right to you?
` A. I don't have it in front of me, but
`if it says that in the CV, then yes.
` Q. Then you said after that consulting,
`these series of consulting jobs, you went to
`Network Computing; is that right?
` A. Yes, I went to Syracuse.
` Q. What made you move to Syracuse?
` A. My wife. Well, then girlfriend, now
`wife.
` Q. You said you held a series of
`positions for Network Computing; is that right?
` A. When I was fully employed, yes.
` Q. And when you were not fully employed?
` A. I was a freelance editor, so I would
`take jobs on contract, basically.
` Q. So that was not a full-time job is
`what you're saying?
` A. It wasn't full-time employment. It
`was 40, 50 hours a week.
` Q. What do you consider to be full-time
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple Inc. v. SAIC & VirnetX
`IPR2014-00237 & IPR2014-00238
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1081, p. 16
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`Page 17
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`employment?
` A. 40, 50 hours a week.
` Q. Okay. Because I just asked you,
`"That wasn't a full-time job," and I think --
`so I'm a little confused.
` A. I'm sorry, let me be specific. I was
`not employed by Network Computing at that time
`in a full-time position, but I was taking
`enough contracts to fill 40, 50 hours a week.
` Q. Okay, thank you.
` And I believe your CV lists you as a
`freelance editor with Network Computing from
`April '94 to June '97?
` A. If that's what's in the CV, then yes.
` Q. And during your during that position,
`the position you held as a freelance editor,
`what did you do?
` A. I did a variety of things. I was
`testing products. I was writing product
`evaluations. I was writing workshops and
`how-to's. I was writing some opinions, some,
`you know, market analysis, product analysis. I
`was interacting with vendors on a variety of
`levels, both getting product briefings as well
`as troubleshooting any issues that I found,
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple Inc. v. SAIC & VirnetX
`IPR2014-00237 & IPR2014-00238
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1081, p. 17
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`Page 18
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`verifying results, resolving any conflicts. I
`was doing equipment setup, teardown, creating
`network environments, IT environments for
`testing.
` Q. So this was all during '94 to '97?
` A. Correct.
` Q. You mentioned that you tested
`products in that position. How many products
`did you test?
` A. I don't recall. More than one. I
`don't know. Many. Many, many products.
` Q. Less than five?
` A. No, it was -- no, it -- more than
`one, less than a thousand. I mean, there were
`a lot of products that I was looking at at the
`time. I -- honestly, I don't recall the
`number.
` Q. Do you remember what products?
` A. I remember the class of products. I
`remember a couple product names. At that
`point, I was looking at remote access servers,
`both for large enterprise, small offices. I
`was looking at modems. I was looking at VPN
`products. I was looking at other security
`products. Those are the major classes that --
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple Inc. v. SAIC & VirnetX
`IPR2014-00237 & IPR2014-00238
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1081, p. 18
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`Page 19
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`I looked at a couple of routers. Those are the
`things that sort of off the top of my head that
`I remember as far as classes go.
` Q. And you tested each one of those
`products?
` A. The products that I tested, I tested.
`I mean, I didn't -- I wouldn't say that I
`tested every single product in a particular
`product class, but the ones that I had in the
`lab were the ones that I tested.
` Q. And you don't remember which ones you
`tested?
` A. Not exact models. I mean, I remember
`many of the vendors that I tested.
` Q. What were the vendors?
` A. So at that time, it would have been
`vendors like Ascend Communications, Cisco, HP,
`Livingston, U.S. Robotics, Nortel, Emulex,
`Checkpoint, products from VPNet, products from
`Aventail, products from a vendor, Red
`something. I forget the last name. They're
`gone. Red Creek. Many more.
` Q. But you don't remember which ones of
`the products from any of these vendors you
`tested?
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple Inc. v. SAIC & VirnetX
`IPR2014-00237 & IPR2014-00238
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1081, p. 19
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`Page 20
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` A. Specific model numbers, no.
` Q. But sitting here today, you can tell
`me you tested a product from each of those
`vendors?
` A. And more. These are the ones that I
`can recall, sitting here today.
` Q. And this was between '94 and '97?
` A. Yes.
` Q. When you tested the products, what
`did that entail?
` A. Are you asking about specific product
`or just in general?
` Q. Let's start generally.
` A. General? So in general --
` Q. Again, let's focus on that '94 to '97
`time frame.
` A. Okay, that's fine. Between '94 and
`'97 in general, I would -- there's a lengthy
`process that simply repeated over and over
`again.
` I would be notified of the product in
`some way. Either I found it or I was briefed
`by the vendor. We would make arrangements to
`get the product to me. You know, we'd have
`conversations beforehand talking about what was
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple Inc. v. SAIC & VirnetX
`IPR2014-00237 & IPR2014-00238
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1081, p. 20
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`Page 21
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`the product supposed to do, what were its
`goals, how it was supposed to function, what
`kind of environment was required, you know,
`what was -- what were the relevant kinds of
`tests. I would take all this input in
`formulating a test plan and a methodology to go
`about testing.
` I would get the product in. I would
`create the environment that was needed to
`support the task, so that includes not only the
`infrastructure for the network development or
`the product to communicate but also the
`adjacent services, so DNS, DHCP, directory
`services if those are required, authentication
`services if those are required.
` So all of that stuff would be set up
`and established. I'd put the product into the
`network. I would -- or into that environment,
`do the integration. I would run through the
`tests, come up with some initial conclusions,
`and notify the vendor of my conclusions, what I
`was finding.
` If during this process there were
`ever any problems or bugs that I found, I would
`notify the vendor that -- of the issues that I
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple Inc. v. SAIC & VirnetX
`IPR2014-00237 & IPR2014-00238
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1081, p. 21
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`Page 22
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`found. I would work with them to get those
`problems resolved or addressed in some way, and
`then I would write up my report.
` Q. Now, you said -- if I'm using the
`incorrect terminology, you can correct me. You
`said you were essentially a contractor for
`Network Computing at that time.
` A. That's correct.
` Q. How did you get the equipment you
`needed to test the various products?
` A. The products I was testing, or all
`the other infrastructure products?
` Q. What do you mean?
` A. I'm asking you to clarify. Asking
`how did I get the products to test, or how did
`I get the products to create the
`infrastructure, the test environment?
` Q. I'm talking about the testing
`environment.
` A. So that was -- typically, it would be
`onsite already in the lab that we were using,
`so it -- there would be a mix of commercial
`products that we had either purchased or on
`long-term loan for commercials, or I would use
`open source products to build the environment.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple Inc. v. SAIC & VirnetX
`IPR2014-00237 & IPR2014-00238
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1081, p. 22
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`Page 23
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` Q. So you mentioned a lab. Where was
`this lab?
` A. It was on Syracuse University.
` Q. So the lab at Syracuse that you used,
`was it also the one you used for your studies?
` A. I'm not sure I understand the
`question.
` Q. So you said you used a lab at
`Syracuse to test the products.
` A. Yes.
` Q. So that was obviously owned by
`Syracuse but a university, not Network
`Consulting; right.
` A. Network Computing.
` Q. Or network Computing. Is that right?
` A. The space was actually leased. The
`space for the lab was leased from Syracuse
`University by -- at that point, the company was
`CNP Media, but they owned Network Computing,
`and the equipment was either variously owned by
`CNP Media or was on long-term loan from the
`vendors.
` We received basic infrastructure,
`networking, a network drop, end power, and
`space initially from Syracuse University.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple Inc. v. SAIC & VirnetX
`IPR2014-00237 & IPR2014-00238
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1081, p. 23
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`Page 24
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` Q. Did you review any of the source code
`for any of the products you tested?
` A. If it was a commercial product, no.
`If it was an open source product, I may have.
`I don't recall if I -- any specific instance.
` Let me correct that. Let me correct
`that. If the commercial product used scripting
`language that was in plain text, again, I don't
`recall any particular instances, but I may have
`looked at that, those scripts.
` Q. Can you write source code?
` A. I can.
` Q. Which languages?
` A. The eight or nine that I listed
`previously.
` Q. With the qualification that you may
`need to refer to books to do that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And then after -- in '97, you moved
`to a full-time position at Network Computing;
`is that right?
` A. Correct.
` Q. What did you do in that full-time
`position?
` A. So it was basically the same thing as
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple Inc. v. SAIC & VirnetX
`IPR2014-00237 & IPR2014-00238
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1081, p. 24
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`Page 25
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`I described to you as a freelance editor. I
`would do the product testing. I also had
`additional duties basically in, you know,
`maintaining relationships with vendors, more
`responsibilities in creating the editorial
`calendar, more responsibilities in assisting
`colleagues and peers and coworkers, going to
`trade shows. So there were some more
`responsibilities involved.
` Q. And that was from June '97 to
`June 2004?
` A. Correct. I went from an associate
`technology editor to position of senior
`technology editor, I recall. Again, it's in
`the CV, and my duties expanded.
` Q. And then in July 2004, you started
`working for the Secure Enterprise magazine; is
`that right?
` A. If the date's correct in the CV.
` Q. Is that connected to Network
`Computing?
` A. Owned by the same parent company. I
`believe at that point, CNP Media was acquired
`by United Business Media, but yeah, so same
`company, same lab space, different magazine.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple Inc. v. SAIC & VirnetX
`IPR2014-00237 & IPR2014-00238
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1081, p. 25
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`Page 26
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` Q. And what did you do for Secure
`Enterprise magazine?
` A. So as editor of Secure Enterprise
`magazine, I did all the testing and all the
`things I did up to being a senior technology
`editor at Network Computing. So all of those
`duties transferred over, but I was focusing
`specifically on security products in the
`security market.
` And, in addition, I was solely
`responsible for creating the editorial
`calendar, sourcing freelance writers, making
`sure that all the content was acceptable.
` I was involved in decisions on
`design, on the content side of creating the
`magazine, and I would represent Secure
`Enterprise going out to trade shows both as an
`attendee as well as presenting.
` Q. During that time, did you test any
`products?
` A. I did.
` Q. Which products?
` A. I couldn't tell you. I mean, again,
`I could tell you names of vendors that I would
`have dealt with. I can't recall what the
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple Inc. v. SAIC & VirnetX
`IPR2014-00237 & IPR2014-00238
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1081, p. 26
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`Page 27
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`actual products were.
` Q. And then you moved back to Network
`Computing; is that right?
` A. Correct.
` Q. And that was -- your CV says it was
`in April 2006. Is that right?
` A. If that's what the CV says, yes.
` Q. And what did you do when you moved
`back to Network Computing in April 2006?
` A. Pretty much doing the same thing
`except for I wasn't the editor of the magazine,
`so I was -- the roles would have been back to
`doing product testing, talking to vendors
`representing Network Computing at trade shows,
`presenting, working with my coworkers, helping
`them get their things done.
` Q. And your CV also states that you were
`a lab manager at that time.
` A. Yes.
` Q. What was that?
` A. If that -- so lab manager at that
`time, so 2007, I was managing the lab, so I was
`responsible for the budget for our two labs. I
`think at that time we had two labs. I was
`managing the equipment allocations. I was
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple Inc. v. SAIC & VirnetX
`IPR2014-00237 & IPR2014-00238
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1081, p. 27
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`Page 28
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`managing the lab at Syracuse University so I
`would work with other freelance editors we had
`working out of that particular lab to create
`test beds, to create -- to allocate equipment,
`to receive and ship product, troubleshoot the
`network, make sure that everything was working
`and available in addition to my own product
`testing and other duties.
` Q. You said there were two labs. These
`were at Syracuse University?
` A. No. We had one lab at Syracuse
`University, at some point, two locations. We
`had another lab in Wisconsin, a separate lab in
`Wisconsin.
` Q. When you say "we had," you were
`referring to Network Computing; correct?
` A. I'm sorry, Network Computing, yes.
` Q. I just wanted to be clear.
` A. Yes.
` Q. And when did you start working at the
`lab in Wisconsin?
` A. I didn't work at the lab in
`Wisconsin. We had separate people -- Network
`Computing had editors located in Wisconsin. I
`was responsible solely for their budget and
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple Inc. v. SAIC & VirnetX
`IPR2014-00237 & IPR2014-00238
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1081, p. 28
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`Page 29
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`
`fulfilling equipment requests.
` Q. So the lab that you worked at was the
`one in Syracuse?
` A. Correct.
` Q. At Syracuse University?
` A. Correct.
` Q. And then your CV states you moved to
`Information Week in January of 2008. Is that
`right?
` A. I assume so, yes.
` Q. Is Information Week connected to
`Network Computing?
` A. It's also -- it was also owned by the
`same company, so we worked somewhat
`collaboratively together.
` Q. And what did you do for Information
`Week?
` A. So I don't have my CV in front of me.
`I don't recall the dates. What was the date?
` Q. It states January 1, 2008 to
`August 2009.
` A. Okay. So at that point, we had
`closed the lab at Syracuse University. We had
`removed all the equipment. We had -- so my
`product testing duties at that point ended
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`Apple Inc. v. SAIC & VirnetX
`IPR2014-00237 & IPR2014-00238
`Petitioner Apple - Ex. 1081, p. 29
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRATTO
`
`Page 30
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`almost entirely. And for Information Week, I
`was doing product analysis and writing news and
`news analysis.
` Q. When you say you were doing product
`analysis, what does that mean?
` A. It means that a vendor would -- when
`they were going to come out with a product, I
`would get a prebriefing ahead of the product
`announcement and perform an