IPR20 14-00 171-1PR10 \4-00 177; IPR10 14-00237-IPR20 14-002 38
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`January 8, 2014 Teleconference
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFF ICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TR I AL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`1
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`RPX CORPORATION
`Pe titio ner,
`
`v .
`VIRNETX INC.
`Patent Owner.
`
`RPX CORPORATION
`Pe titione r,
`
`v.
`VIRNETX IN C .
`Patent Owner.
`
`RPX CORPORATION
`Pe tition er,
`
`v .
`VI RNETX INC.
`Pat ent Owner.
`
`RPX CORPORATION
`Petitioner,
`
`v .
`VIRNETX INC.
`Pa tent Owner.
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`RPX CORPORATION
`Pe ti t io ner ,
`
`v .
`VIRNETX INC.
`Pate nt Owner.
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`Cas e IPR2014-00 171
`Paten t 6,502 ,1 35
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`Case IPR2 014 - 00 172
`Patent 6 ,502,1 35
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`Case I PR2 014-0017 3
`Patent 7 , 490 ,1 51
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`Case IPR2014 - 00174
`Pa tent 7 ,921,21 1
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`Cas e IPR2014 -0 0175
`Pa tent 7,921,211
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`(Caption continues on next page)
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`Wednesday, January 8 , 2014
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`2: 1 5 p . m. EST
`
`Teleconference befo re th e Patent Trial and Appeal Board
`RPX Corporation Exhibit 1085
`RPX Corporation v. VirnetX, Inc. et al.
`Case IPR2014-00177
`
`202·220-41 58
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`
`
`January 8, 2014 Teleconference
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFF ICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TR I AL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`1
`
`RPX CORPORATION
`Pe titio ner,
`
`v .
`VIRNETX INC.
`Patent Owner.
`
`RPX CORPORATION
`Pe titione r,
`
`v.
`VIRNETX IN C .
`Patent Owner.
`
`RPX CORPORATION
`Pe tition er,
`
`v .
`VI RNETX INC.
`Pat ent Owner.
`
`RPX CORPORATION
`Petitioner,
`
`v .
`VIRNETX INC.
`Pa tent Owner.
`
`RPX CORPORATION
`Pe ti t io ner ,
`
`v .
`VIRNETX INC.
`Pate nt Owner.
`
`Cas e IPR2014-00 171
`Paten t 6,502 ,1 35
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`Case IPR2 014 - 00 172
`Patent 6 ,502,1 35
`
`Case I PR2 014-0017 3
`Patent 7 , 490 ,1 51
`
`Case IPR2014 - 00174
`Pa tent 7 ,921,21 1
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`Cas e IPR2014 -0 0175
`Pa tent 7,921,211
`
`(Caption continues on next page)
`
`Wednesday, January 8 , 2014
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`2: 1 5 p . m. EST
`
`Teleconference befo re th e Patent Trial and Appeal Board
`RPX Corporation Exhibit 1085
`RPX Corporation v. VirnetX, Inc. et al.
`Case IPR2014-00177
`
`202·220-41 58
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`
`
`JJ>R2014-00 171-1PR2014-00177; IPR101
`
`January 8, 2014 Teleconference
`
`(Continued capt i on : )
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`2
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`RPX CORPORATION
`Pe titioner ,
`
`v .
`VIRNETX I NC .
`Pa t e nt Owne r.
`
`RPX CORPORATION
`Petitioner,
`
`v.
`VIRNETX INC.
`Patent Owner .
`
`APPLE I NC.
`Petitioner ,
`
`v .
`VIRNETX INC. AND SCIENCE
`AP PLICATION INTERNAT IONAL
`COR PORATION
`Paten t Owner .
`
`APPLE I NC .
`Petitioner,
`
`v .
`VIRNETX I NC . AND SC IENCE
`APPLICATION INTERNATIONAL
`CORPORATION
`Patent Owne r.
`
`Ca se IPR20 14-00176
`Patent 7,418,504
`
`Cas e IPR2014 - 00 177
`Patent 7 , 418 ,504
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`Inte r Partes Revi ew
`No . IPR20 14 - 0023 7
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`Patent 8 , 504 ,697
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`Inter Pa rt es Revie w
`No . IPR2014-00238
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`Patent 8,504 ,697
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`Wednesday , January 8 , 20 14
`2: 1 5 p. m. EST
`
`Teleconfe rence before th e Pa tent Trial and Appeal
`
`Boa r d , the pro ceedi ngs be ing recorded stenographical ly
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`by Jonatha n Wonne 1 l, a Reg iste r ed Profes siona l Cou rt
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`Reporter ·( NCRA
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`'835577) and Notary Public o f tn~ St ate
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`of Minnesota, and tr anscrib ed under his dir ect ion.
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`202-220-41 58
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`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
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`www.lwndersonlegalservices.com ..
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`t
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`IPR1014·00 171-IPR10 14·00 I77; IPIU0141-o!!!02!1!37!1-!I!IP!!!R!!!20"'4!1j!!!O!!!,1!I38~········" January 8, 20 14 Teleconference
`
`A P PEA RAN C E S
`
`o F COUNSEL
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`(Al l par tic ipants appearing b y phone)
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`3
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`On be ha lf of the Pate nt Tria l and Appeal
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`Board:
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`MIC HAEL P_ TIERNEY, ESQ. , Administrative
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`Pa t e n t Judge
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`STEVEN C . SIU , ES Q., Admin i strative La w
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`Judge
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`KARL D. EAS THaM, ESQ ., Admi ni strati ve Law
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`Jud ge
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`On behalf of RPX Corporation :
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`OL I VER R. ASHE, JR . , ESQ .
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`Ashe P. C .
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`11440 Isaac Newton Square North , Suite
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`2 10
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`Rest on, Vir gin ia 20 1 90
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`(703) 46 7- 9001
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`oashe@ashepc . com
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`. ..
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`'-
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`202-220·4158
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`' .
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`"
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`Henderson Legal Services, Inc,
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`-r'-- e'
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`www.hendersonlega lservices.com
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`
`
`IPRlO 14-00 171 ·JPR20 14-00 177; lPR10 14-00237·JPR20! 4-00238
`
`.Ianu::I.1Y 8, 1014 Teleconference
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`A P P EA RA N C E S
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`(Cont'd)
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`4
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`On beha lf of Virnetx Inc .:
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`J OSEPH E. PALYS , ESQ.
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`ELL IOT C . COOK , ESQ .
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`Fin negan , Henderson, Farabow , Garret t &
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`Dunner , LLP
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`Two Freedom Squar e
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`1 1955 Freedom Drive
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`Re ston , Virg in ia 20190 -5675
`
`(571) 2 0 3 -2700
`
`joseph. p a lys @finnega n.com
`
`ell io t . cook@ f innegan . com
`
`-- and
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`NAVEE N MODI, ESQ.
`
`Finnegan, Hend e r son , Farabow , Garrett &
`
`Dunner, LLP
`
`901 New York Av e nu e , N.W.
`
`Wa s hington, D.C. 20005
`
`(202) 408 - 400 0
`
`na veen .modi@ f innegan.com
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`-- and --
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`202-220-4158
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`www.hcndersonlegalservices.com
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`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`
`
`
`I PR20 14-00 171-I PR20 14-00 177; IPR20 14-00237-J PR20 14-00238
`
`January 8, 2014 Teleconference
`
`A P PEA RAN C E S
`
`(Cont'd)
`
`5
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`On beha l f of Vi r n e tx In c .
`
`(Con t' d)
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`JAMES D. STEIN, ESQ.
`
`Finnegan, Henderson, Farabow, Ga rrett &
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`Dunne r, LLP
`
`3500 SunTrus t Pla za
`
`30 3 Peacht r ee Street, NW
`
`Atlanta , Geo rgia 3 0308 - 3263
`
`(404) 653- 640 0
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`james.stein@ fi nnegan.com
`
`On beh a l f of App l e Comput e rs :
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`JEFFREY P. KUSHAN, ES Q.
`
`JOS EPH A. MICALLEF, ESQ .
`
`Sidl ey , Austin , Brown & Wood
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`1 5 01 K Street , N.W,
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`Su ite 600
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`Wa s h i ngton, D. C . 20005
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`(202) 736-8 000
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`jkushan@ sid l e y .com
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`jmicallef@sidley.com
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`-- a nd --
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`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
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`I
`J
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`www.hendersonlegalscrvices.com
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`f.
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`
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`IPR20 14-00 171-IPR20 14-00 177; IPR20 14-00237-IPR20 14-00238
`
`January 8, 20 14 Teleconference
`
`A ~ ~ E AR A N C E S
`
`(Cont ' d)
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`6
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`On beh a lf of Appl e Comput e rs (Co nt ' d)
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`DAV ID E. MELAUGH, ES Q.
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`App l e Inc.
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`1 I nfi nit e Lo op
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`Cupertino, Ca l iforni a 95 01 4
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`(408) 974-076 1
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
`
`PHOEBE NGUY EN , Leg a l Admi n i s t r a t o r,
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`As he, P.C.
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`J ONATHAN WONNELL , Court Repo rte r
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`202-220-4158
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`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
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`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
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`
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`IPR20 14-00 171- IPR20 14-00 177; [PR20 14·00237-IPR20 14-00238
`
`January 8, 2014 Te1econterence
`
`PR O C E E DIN G S
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`7
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`( 2: 1 5 p.m. EST )
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`JUDGE TI ERNEY :
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`Jud ge Tie r ney o n the
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`l i n e.
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`I s J ud ge Si u o n t h e
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`l i n e?
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`J UDGE SI U: Ye s .
`
`I ' m o n t he l i n e .
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`J UDGE TI ERNEY: We l come
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`t o t he ca ll .
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`I
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`h a ve J ud ge Easthom i n my o f fi ce so t h e pane l is al l
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`s et.
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`I 'm go i n g t o start o ff with a b rie f ro ll c all
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`and make su re th at we h ave th e par t i es on t h e
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`l i n e ,
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`ke e p i ng i n mi nd tha t we have - -
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`in my u nd e rst and in g
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`we h ave RPX rep r e se ntati v e s, we ' re g oi n g t o h av e
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`App l e r e p r e senta t i v e s a nd Virne t x r e presen t at i ves .
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`I ' m goi n g t o sta rt with RPX.
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`Is t h e r e a
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`r e prese ntat i v e from RPX o n the p h o ne t oday?
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`MR. ASHE : Yes . This the Olive r As he .
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`cTTJDGE TIE RNEY : We l come to the ca ll.
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`MR. ASHE: Tha nk you .
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`J UDGE TIERN EY :
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`I s t h e r e a nyone e lse
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`MR . AS HE: My assi s t an t , Phoe b e Ng u ye n .
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`Other t han th at , no.
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`JU DGE TI ERNEY : Th an k y ou. And then
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`202-220-4 158
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`Henderson Legal Services. Inc.
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`www.hendcrsonlegalservices.com
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`
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`IPR20 J4·00l71·IPR2014·00l77; JPR201 4·00237· JPR2014·00238
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`January S, 2014 T c1cconference
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`8
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`1 we' ll go -- the next one , the next petiti oner, was
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`App l e . Do we h a v e a represen t at i ve f rom Apple
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`today?
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`MR. KUSHAN: Yes , Your Honor. Th i s
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`i s
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`Jeff Kushan fr om Sidle y Aus ti n .
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`I have wi th me Joe
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`6 Micalle f, my pa rtner, a nd I also be lieve David
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`7 Melaugh from Apple i s o n t he phone .
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`JUDGE TIERNE Y: What was the last name?
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`MR . KUS HAN : Me la ug h, M-e -l- a -u-g-h.
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`JU DG E TIERNEY: And then l a stly but not
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`le ast, Virnetx. Do we have a r e presentative from
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`MR . PALYS: Ye s, Your Honor.
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`It's
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`J oseph Palys wi t h Finne gan Hen derson f or Virne tx .
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`And with me is Naveen Modi , Ellio t t Cook and James
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`Ste in calling in from Atlanta.
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`JUDGE TIERN EY: We l come t o the phone
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`con f erence ca l l toda y .
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`Fo r pu rpose s of orde r go ing
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`on fo l lowin g the ca ll , I 'm jus t go ing to put on the
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`fi rst named p e rson tha t we had today rat her t ha n
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`have a complete list. But if you need a complete
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`l i st l e t me know r ight now .
`
`202-220-4158
`
`.. ,,=-=. -
`
`Henderson Legal Servi ces, Inc.
`
`www.hcndcrsonlegalserviccs.com
`
`i-
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`
`
`IPRlO 14-0017 1-1PR2014-00 177; IPR2014-OO237-1 PR2014-OO238
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`January S, 2014 Telet:onfel'ence
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`9
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`Not hear ing any objection we' ll just go
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`ahead and we ' ll have Mr. Ashe, Kushan and Pa lys
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`listed as repr esenta tives f or today alon g with
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`othe rs and we 'l l just have others .
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`Star ti ng off I did as k f o r
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`t hi s call
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`6 with the panel. We wanted t o talk about the
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`schedul ing. We d i d receive a couple e-mai l s
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`r ecently from the parties suggest ing we broaden out
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`t h e purpose of the ca l l.
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`The first point ,
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`thou gh ,
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`I wou ld li ke
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`to - -
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`MR. PALYS : You r Honor, I r eal ly
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`apo l ogize t o in t errup t you.
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`I
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`j ust want to let you
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`know tha t we have a court reporter on.
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`I don ' t
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`know if he' s ide nti fi ed hims e l f .
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`JUDGE TTERNEY : Who i s speaking , p le ase?
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`MR. PALYS : Your Honor, th is is Joseph
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`Pa lys . And I apolog ize fo r interrupt ing you.
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`I
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`j ust want e d to make sure you ' r e awar e of that .
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`JUDGE T I ERNEY :
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`I was not aware . And i n
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`the fut ure cou l d you p lease a l ert
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`the pane l before
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`we ha ve the ca ll ?
`
`202-220-41 58
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`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
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`ww \\' .hendersonlegalservices.com
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`i i· i,
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`!
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`IPIUO 14-00 17J -IPR20 14-00 177; IPR201
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`JanuOlry 8, 20 14 Teleconference
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`MR. PALYS: Yes , s ir _
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`I apologiz e .
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`JU DGE TIE RNEY: Not a problem.
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`I t ma ke s
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`no te ta king a li ttle bit e asi er , as you p r obably
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`understa nd .
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`MR . PALYS :
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`I unde rstand , si r .
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`So r ry .
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`JUDGE TIERNEY :
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`So s i nce we do have a
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`co u r t report er you'r e awa r e we would want t o h ave a
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`copy o f the tr ans cript file d a s an exhi bit?
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`MR . PALYS : Mm- hmm . Yes .
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`JUDGE TIE RN EY: Oka y. As l ong as we are
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`awar e of th at .
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`MR. ASHE: You r Honor ,
`
`t his is Ol iver
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`As he . To t he e xtent that we c over a ny materi al
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`that migh t be unde r
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`t he p r o t ective ord e r or
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`r e la t i ng to sea led ma t eri a ls, I thi n k i t would be
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`approp r iate fo r
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`t hat exhibit t o al so be s ub ject to
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`th a t prot ect i ve order .
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`JUDGE TIERNEY : Do we have any
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`ob jecti on ?
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`MR. PALYS : No , Your Hono r.
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`J UDG E TIERNEY : Oka y . Not he ari ng any
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`obj e c ti on, Mr. Palys, di d you a le rt t he o t her
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`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`
`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
`
`
`
`1PRlO 14-00 171-IPR10 14-00 177; 1 PR10 14·00237-IPR20 14·00238
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`January 8,1014 Tcleconlerencc
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`par ties that you were goi ng to have a cour t
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`repor t er t oday?
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`MR. PALY 5 : Ye s .
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`JUDGE TIERNEY: Okay .
`
`I assume I ' m
`
`going to RPX and a repres e ntative from App le. Any
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`objections?
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`MR . ASHE: No t fr om RPX, Your Hono r .
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`MR . KUSHAN: No t fr om Apple .
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`JUDGE TIERNEY: Okay.
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`I justed wan t to
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`t he
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`Okay . So we wil l proceed with t he
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`under standing that the tr ansc ript to th e extent of
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`if i t's needed to be filed that it wi ll be f i l ed as
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`an exhibit. Provis i onally have i t under seal just
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`in case we cove r any thi ng . At the end o f the ca ll
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`I wo uld re comme nd that the r epresentatives fr om RPX
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`and Apple chime in, if th ey hear anythi ng t hat t hey
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`believe shoul d be under sea l ale rt us so tha t we
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`don ' t acc i denta l ly have something go ing in to a
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`transcript that is marked as publ i c when it should
`
`22
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`actually be marke d as private .
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`202-220-4158
`
`Henderson Lcg<ll Services, loc.
`
`------
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`www.hcndersonJega lservices.com
`
`
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`JPR20 14-00 171-IPR20 14-00 177; IPR20 14-00237- JPR10 14-00138
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`January 8, 2014 Teleconference
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`Any comments on that befo re I begin?
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`Go i ng to RPX?
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`MR. AS HE: No . We' re fine with that,
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`Your Honor.
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`JUDGE TIERNEY : Any from Apple?
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`MR. KU SHAN: No . We ' re fine with th at
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`procedure.
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`JUDGE TIERNEY : Virnetx?
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`MR. PALYS: No, Your Honor .
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`JUDGE TIERNEY : Okay.
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`So t he first
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`qu estion we had toda y, I 'm go ing to start off with
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`the quest i o n that was posed or i g inal l y for the
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`conf e rence ca ll, which was scheduling. My
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`understanding
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`I'm look ing at the record -- was
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`RPX had fi led t heir petit ions November 20th and
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`th en App le had filed peti tion s to patents which
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`c l aimed benefit o f certain pa te nts tha t we r e
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`challenged in the RPX peti tion s .
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`Apple filings we re filed on December 6th
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`of 2013. And t he q u es tio n we were wa nting to pose
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`is shoul d we put them on a -- the same or a similar
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`schedule going forwar d. And I wanted to pose that
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`202-220-4 158
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`1 PR20 J4·00 171-IPR10 14·00 177: 1!'1U0 14-00237-IPR20 14-00238
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`questi on to the parties.
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`I wi ll start with Vi rnetx .
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`If you could
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`p lea se gi v e us yo ur t hough ts on th i s.
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`MR. PALYS : Yes, Your Ho nor. Thank you.
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`This i s Jos e ph Palys f or Virnetx. The i ss ue
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`rega rding the s c hed u le a ctual l y d ovetail s int o some
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`of the issues that we ra ise d in our e-ma il
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`rega rdi ng th e real par t y in interest a nd pri vity .
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`9 We th in k that thes e is sue s ac tu ally af fec t th e
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`schedule in some f orm.
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`And I was wond e ring if, some l eewa y with
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`t he boa rd, if we ca n get from a h igh l evel to
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`e xpl ain why th at would a ffec t that schedule I can
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`get in to t hat .
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`JUDGE TIERNEY : Actua ll y , th e quest i on
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`I've posed t oday is s imply shou ld they be on the
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`same schedul e . And I und e r s tand you ' re go ing to
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`want to go and tell us what th e schedu le should be ,
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`b u t from a high l eve l point v i ew , do you want to be
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`on t h e same schedul e or not?
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`MR . PALYS : Okay .
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`Su re, Yo ur Honor.
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`22 Wi th respect to the I PRs f iled by Appl e and th e
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`202-220-4158
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`Henderson Lega l Services, Inc.
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`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
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`/PR20/4-00 /71-IPR2014-00177; [PR'O[4!~~~:4-~O~O'~3~8-----·····"
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`Janumy 8, 1014 TelecQnfen:ncc
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`I PRs fi l ed by RPX , we d on ' t
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`t hink t hat t hey s h oul d
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`be on the same schedu le . They have different
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`notice of fil ing da tes. And , as you know, we have
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`nine IPR ma tters that we' re dealing with.
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`So between those two sets of ma t t ers ,
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`it ' s Vi rne tx ' s position tha t
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`they should not be on
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`t he same schedule .
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`J UDGE TIERNEY: And the rat ionale just
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`be ing because t hey were f i led different dates?
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`MR . PALYS : They are di fferen t patent s ,
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`Your Honor. They address different issues.
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`They -- yes , one of th e o th e r reason s, they were
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`fi l e d on d if f eren t dates . They were f iled by a
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`differe nt pa rty . And we think tha t these issues
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`coupled with -- a lot of it is some of the
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`no t bee n subject to a n y previous IPRs , were going
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`to require dif ferent issues .
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`Some of them th ere may be some ove rlap
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`t he r e, You r Honor , but we don ' t
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`t h i nk that war rants
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`that they be o n the same schedu l e .
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`JUDGE TIERNEY: Go into overl ap.
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`202-220-41 58
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`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
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`www.hendersonlegalservices.com
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`[PR20 1 4~OO 17 J -I PR10 [4-00 177; 1 PR20 14-0023 7-IPR20 J 4-00238
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`(At t h is p oint the cou rt r eporter ' s
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`p h one dropped off the conference c all. With the
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`miss i ng p r oceedings a r e omi tt ed from t he
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`JUDGE TIERNEY:
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`amount o f over l ap
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`between th e two p r oceedin gs .
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`Fo r exampl e , c l ai m
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`the y mean, one o f ordinary skill i n the art, et
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`cetera , et cetera .
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`MR . PALYS: Yes. We ll, there ce r tainly
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`i s overlap. We're not sugge sting that t h ere isn 't
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`any overlap as f ar as they rel y on the same
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`specifi cations frnm t hR SAmR fAm il y . But there are
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`differe nt c l aims , c l a i m t e rms . We
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`t h i n k that ma y
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`requi re -- int r oduce diff erent cl aim constructions
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`t h at are not common to th e other matter.
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`Tha t's jus t
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`t o b e gin wi th.
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`I apologize .
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`I'm l oo king thro u gh my not es rig h t now, Yo u r Honor .
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`So --
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`202-220-415 8
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`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
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`www.hendcrsonlegalservices.com
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`IPR2014-00 171 · !PR10 14-00177;
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`J.:mu::u}' 8, 20! 4 T ehx:onlcrcnce
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`J UDGE TI ERNEY :
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`I ' m j ust cu ri ous. For
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`consistency purposes , wou ldn't yo u s a y that for
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`where th ere are common terms being used i n the
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`c l aims, since they are going back through common
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`specifi c ati o n s for bene f i t ,
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`t h at we woul d want t o
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`be cons i s t ent in our dec i s i ons to ins ti tute or to
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`not ins titut e?
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`MR. PALYS : Yeah , go ahead . My par t ne r,
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`i n , Yo u r Honor .
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`MR . MODI : Your Honor , th i s is Naveen
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`11 Mod i . Maybe I can a ddress some of your questions.
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`I gene r a l ly a gree with you t h at obvi ou sly to t he
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`ex t ent c l a im te r ms are the same across these
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`patents the y should be co nstrued co nsis ten t ly .
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`I
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`guess wh at we ' re tryi ng t o get at i s th at we don 't
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`disagrp.p. wi t.h yon t h a t there's overl a p .
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`We just th ink, you know , there are
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`obvious ly n ine pending IPRs r i ght now and we h ave
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`seven with RPX and two nami ng App l e .
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`Just there 's
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`a
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`l ot of vo l ume, you know , a lot of mate r ial here.
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`And I
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`t hink wha t we ' re t rying to get i s , the
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`issues , yes, they do overl ap , but they a r e
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`202-220-41 58
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`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
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`www.hendcrsonlegalservices.com
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`IPR20 14-00 171 -1 PR20 14-00 177; IPR20 i4-00237·)PR20 14-00238
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`January S, 20 14 Teleconference
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`di f ferent .
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`For example , the Apple IPRs rais e a new
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`prima ry ref erence , Wesinge r , Your Honor, that ' s not
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`part o f the Apple IPRs.
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`So from t hat perspective,
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`t h e issues are d if fe r ent. And tha t's what we we re
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`gett i ng at.
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`I don ' t know i f -- you know, I guess
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`wha t does t he board have in mind when you ' re sayi n g
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`you wan ted to align the schedules? And if yo u
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`could shed some li ght to that , tha t wou l d be
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`h elpful.
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`JU DGE TIERNEY: Unders t ood .
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`I can
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`c l ar i fy . We ' re l ooking at havi ng potent i al l y
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`and this is why we wante d to 't a lk to the par ti es
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`today
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`ba sically the time for fi ling the pate nt
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`owner prelimi nary res pons e sho uld be f i led on t he
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`same d a te f or a l l the proceedings as one op tio n .
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`And we were contemplating to try and ke e p these
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`cases cons i sten t in t heir analysis by th e board ,
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`a nd t hat ' s why we're ha v ing t he d iscu ss i on on t h is
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`poin t .
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`Ma ybe at this po int maybe it' s bette r if
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`202 M 220 M41 S8
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`Henderson Legal Serviccs. Inc.
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`IPR20 14·00 17 1-IPR20 14·00 177; IPR'OIJ~~~~~~·········-
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`we talke d to RPX and App le and see what the i r vie ws
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`are a l s o , beca use I think we h ave your v i ews
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`u ndersto od unless there's someth i ng el se you'd like
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`t o say befo r e we move on.
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`MR. PALYS :
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`I think that 's good , Your
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`Hono r .
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`THE REPORT ER:
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`Judge Tierne y , so rr y to
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`inte rrup t. Th is i s
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`t he cour t reporter . And my
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`p hon e cu t out a li ttle bi t .
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`I d i dn 't want to
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`interrupt .
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`JUDGE TIERNEY:
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`Oka y . What woul d you
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`li ke to do?
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`THE RE PORTE R:
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`I guess I ' d l eave that u p
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`to yo u . The re was about a two minute po rtion whe n
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`I was of f the phone .
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`JUDGE TIERNEY:
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`I th ink it'3 bes t we
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`jus t continu e going fo r ward inste ad of t r ying to
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`recapture everyth ing , unle ss -- Mr . Paly s , wou ld
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`you like fo r
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`t he record to make any statement about
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`the las t
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`two minut es that may not have been
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`ca p t u red?
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`MR . PALYS : No.
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`I thin k we can move on,
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`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
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`www.hendersonlega lservices.com
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`IPR10 14-00 171 -IPR20 14-00 177; IPR20 14-00237-I PR20 \4-00138
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`Yo u r Honor.
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`THE REPORT ER: Sorry about that.
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`JU DGE TIE RNEY: No t a problem.
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`Apple, I ' ll begin with you . For
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`scheduling p urposes , you r s was fi led I be lieve a
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`l it tle bit l ater i n time, December 6th . What a re
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`your v iews on try ing to have the s ame schedule f or
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`patent owner prelimina r y r esponse between the
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`two -- the t wo series o f cases betwee n Apple and
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`RPX ' s?
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`MR. KUSHAN : Th ank you , Your Honor . Let
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`me -- so we generally are supportive of align i ng
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`these p roceedings and f or some o f the reasons
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`you ' ve already foreshadowed.
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`Firs t, you know , the
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`disclosur e that's being relie d on for all these
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`p ate nts is essent i al l y th e same part of t he same
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`patent. They use s imilar or very simi l ar concepts
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`and terms.
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`While there are ind i vidua l ref e r ences
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`that may be di ffe r ent among some of t he petitions ,
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`there is
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`and each of t he patents have been
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`chal l e nged by three common re ferenc es. Those are
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`202-220-41 58
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`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
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`www.hcndersonlegalserviccs.com
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`J 1'R20 J4-QO 171·]PR20 14-00! 77; I PR10 14-00237-JPR20 14-00238
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`the Avent ai l , Beser and Ki uchi refe r ences.
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`So t here ' s a l ot of overl a p i n the
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`patentabili ty issues that are go ing to be prese nted
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`and cons i dered in the p r ocee d i ng bas e d on those
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`thre e refe r ences . And i t make a lot of sense in
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`our view t o treat them as what they are, which is a
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`ve r y cl osely r e l ate d set of patent s tha t are goi ng
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`to present very simi l a r patent
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`i ssues .
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`I a l so th i nk you sho u ld be awa r e t ha t
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`there is a common expe rt used by both Apple and RPX
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`to support th eir vari ous petit i ons . That ' s Mike
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`Fratto . And in f act i n our vie w it woul d p robabl y
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`be even approp r iate in the context of t hese cases
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`to conside r a joi nder type o f procedu re for the
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`various pr oceedings gi ven the s i mi l ari ty of the
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`d i fferent patents and the issues they present .
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`Yo u might a l so want to think abou t
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`j o i nder i n the sense that it would obvi ate some o f
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`the que stions that h ave been raise d b y the issue
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`that Virnetx is attempt ing to man uf ac t ure about
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`privity between App l e a nd RPX.
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`An d finall y, wh e n i t ' s a pprop riate t o do
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`202-220-41 58
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`Henderson Legal Services. Inc.
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`www.hendersonlegalservjces.com
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`j'
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`IPR20 14-00 17 1-IPR20 14-00 177; I PR20 14~i~02~J!7-~IP~R~2!!!O!l14~-O!!O!l2J~8----"'·····
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`January 8, 2014 Teleconference
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`so, I want to bring your attention to the fact that
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`t h ere are pend ing reexaminat i ons involving the same
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`p atents tha t are the subje ct of the RPX peti tion s
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`which you should h ave in mind , as we ll as the f ac t
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`th at we h a ve filed r econs iderati on motions or
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`he aring requests on pet itions we filed on the s ame
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`four patents tha t are the s ub ject of t he RPX
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`p etition s.
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`And so i n our view those petit io ns we
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`filed l ast summer are essentia l ly sti ll on the
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`table for eva l uation.
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`JUDGE TIERNEY: And corre ct me if I' m
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`wrong, b ut all th ose pe tit ions were deni ed , that
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`they were not i nst i tuted, and t h e request fo r
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`hearing is to change tho se decis i ons f rom a
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`non- ins titll te to an institute?
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`MR. KUSHAN: That is cor rect , Your
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`Hono r .
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`JUDGE TIERNEY:
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`So at this point
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`in
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`time, we understand tha t
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`t he cases may not be
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`complete ly over , but for purpos es of today the
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`status of the case is that th ere is not an
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`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
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`www.henderson legalservices.com
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`[PR20[4-00 [71 ·JPR20 14-00 177; IPR20[
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`institution?
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`MR . KUSHAN: That ' s correct. They ' re
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`n ot instituted. You know, obviously we think th at
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`the r e is a very strong basis for changing that
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`determina ti on based on t he c i rcums t ances of t h ose
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`pet itions which are presen ti ng somewhat nove l
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`ques tions und er 315(b), th e transi tion date for
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`implemen ting the Al A.
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`JUDGE TIERNEY: And I bel i eve you ' re
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`fami l iar with at least some o f th e membe rs on the
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`phone today are membe rs o f the pane l on those
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`cases . The boa r d is aware of the ot he r I P r eexams
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`and t he other IPRs that .Jere f i led and t h e stat us
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`o f
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`them . Could you please give us some background
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`as to what you want us to do wit h this p articular
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`i nformation , though?
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`MR. KUSHAN: Sure. What we'd act ual l y
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`like to see the boa rd to consider is a moti on to
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`trans fer the reexamin ation proceedings over to the
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`board. And the reason for doi ng tha t is pre t ty
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`simp l e . Tho se reexams were fi led back in August of
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`2011. Each of the four patent s has been subjected
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`202-220-4158
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`www.hendersonlcgalservices.com
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`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
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`to rejec tion s of all the ir cl aims fo r
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`unpaten t abi l i ty on a number of the grounds t hat are
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`th e same as those ra ised in the RPX and ou r prio r
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`petit i ons fi l ed in the summe r.
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`A big p r oblem we faced is th e
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`unpredic tabl e dela ys in progres sing th ose
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`proceedings to compl etion . And we thi nk one big
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`re ason why there have been del ays i s th e conduct of
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`9 Virnetx in those cas es.
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`It may shoc k you to l earn
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`th at Vi rnetx to our count has fi l e d more than 45
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`p etit i ons in four proceedings, those f our
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`reexamination proceedi ngs.
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`I h ave t o t ell you I ' ve
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`neve r see n anyth ing like th is.
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`We have one of those proceedi ngs si t ting
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`15 waiting -- and t h is is the '1 51 patent -- which h as
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`hA An s itting for over a ye ar wi th no ac tion .
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`Th e
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`'1 35 paten t has bee n sitting there s in ce t he s ummer
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`18 wit h no act io n, waiting fo r PTO acti on.
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`On the appeals that have actu ally
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`progressed or s t arted on the othe r
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`two patents ,
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`Vi rnet x fil ed three consecutive extension of time
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`r equests just to fi le t he ir appeal brie f.
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`202·220-4 158
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`Henderson Legul Services, Inc.
`
`www.henderson lcgalservices.com
`
`
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`IPR20 14·00 171·IPR1014.Q0 177; IPR201
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`Junuary S, :W14 Teleconference
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`24
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`1
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`JUDGE TIERNEY :
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`I unders tand yo u're
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`saying that t h ey may not b e as diligen t as you
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`would like.
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`Pleas e e xpla in , thoug h, why t he board
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`4 would exe r cise i ts disc r e ti on to tra nsfer the cases
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`a nd ta ke jur i s dict io n. Wh a t wo uld we then do ?
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`6 Would we then p r oceed to a dminist er th e IP r eexam
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`from the b oard bu t hav ing boa rd personne l do i t?
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`MR . KUSHAN: Well,
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`two tho u ghts .
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`Fi rs t,
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`y ou h ave th e au thori ty un der 31 5(d) to transfer t he
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`proceed ings to the boa rd. And the reason you might
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`do that is tha t
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`they are add res sing common
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`pa te ntab i l i ty issues to th ose rais e d in the
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`petitions filed by RPX . The same pa t ents are the
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`subject of both th e IP r eexams and t he co ncurren t
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`I P petitions.
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`The other var iab le tha t is relevan t is
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`that the same - - many of t h e same patentability
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`issues are pre sen ted . There 's certa in issues in
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`the IP reexams th at ar e not subject of the RPX or
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`e arl ier App le petitions , but the re a r e a
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`s i gnifican t n umbe r of i ssues th at overl ap on th e
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`same prior art or pa tent abi lity gro und s .
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`202·220-415 8
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`I
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`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
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`www.hendersonlegalserviccs.com
`
`
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`I PR20 14.00 171-II'R10 14-00 177; I PR20 14-OO2J7- II'R20 14-00238
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`JanuiIIY 8. 20 14 Teleconference
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`25
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`As fa r as h ow yo u mi ght do that, i t
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`seems appropriat e to esse n tially put them on to t h e
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`foo ting of an IPR proceedi ng . That would make in
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`our view the most se nse because that would allow
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`you to conduct thos e proce edings in line with the
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`sc h e d u l e and t he procedures you ' v e a l ready
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`establ i shed f or IPR pet i ti ons .
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`I
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`t h i nk the commona l ity of t he
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`patentability i ssues t hat are pres ented i n both th e
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`I P reexams and in th e IP petitions is the h ook t hat
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`gives you the author ity to move the cases over to
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`th e board unde r 315(d) .
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`And we obvious l y wou l d be open to your
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`14
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`guida nce for whe th e r we wou l d be asked to p re sent
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`or narrow s ome of the i ssues to a l i g n to the
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`i ssue s
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`tha t wou l d be presented i n the IP R. Yo u know ,
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`I
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`think you hav e, as you probably recognize, a fair
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`amount of discr etion to proce e d in multip le a c ti on s
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`or mul tiple act i v ities invo l ving the same patent
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`that are pendi ng before th e Office .
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`JUDGE TI ERNEY: We ll, the panel has
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`he ard the concerns. At th i s point in time b ecause
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`202·220·4!58
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`www.hendersoniegaIservices.com
`
`Henderson Lega l Services, Inc.
`
`
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`IPR20 14-00 1 71 -1PR20 14-00 1 77; IPR20 14-00237-1J>R2014-0023S
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`J<lnuary 8, 101 4 Teleconference
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`26
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`we have no t
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`i ns t i t u ted t h e cases we d e cli ne t o
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`e xercis e jur i s d ic ti o n and t r ans f er the cases at
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`t h is po int in time .
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`Shou ld we d e c ide to inst itu te
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`t h e cas es , in pa r ti cu lar t he cha ll e nges tha t ha v e
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`b e en broug h t
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`f or th in t he pe t i tion s, we can rev i s i t
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`t he is s u e aga i n du r i ng an i n itia l confer e n ce cal l.
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`MR . KUSHAN: You r Ho n o r , just v ery
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`bri efly ,
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`t h i s
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`i s ki nd of u n charted wate r s
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`I
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`t h i n k .
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`I don ' t
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`th i n k I ' ve s e e n any act i vity b y t he panel
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`on a t ransfe r iss u e .
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`I' ve see n some ac tivi t y
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`r e lati ng to c onsol ida tion issues . Woul d
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`i t be
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`appr o priat e f or u s
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`t o a t least br i e f and p r e se nt a
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`mo ti o n for t rans f er of t he s e p r oceed i n gs f or you r
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`cons ide rat ion ?
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`JUDGE TIERNEY: We ll ,
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`I d o h ave a cour t
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`r e po r t e r.
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`I 'l l e l u c i d a t e a lit tl e b it on the
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`r eason i n g s o we can h ave i t o n
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`t he r eco rd as to why
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`we wil l n o t at thi s time ex e r cise jur isdi c t i o n . We
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`h ave
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`j ur is d i c ti o n. Ex e rc i s e it i n s u ch a ma nner t o
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`t r a n sfe r
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`t he cas e s to t h e b o ard .
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`I n p art i c u l ar at t h is p o i n t
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`i n time
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`we ' re e arly in the pr oceeding . We have n ot h a d
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`t he
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`202-220-4 158
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`7
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`Henderson Legal Services, Inc.
`
`www.henderso
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