ROBERT AKL, D.SC.
`ROBERT AKL, D.SC.
`
`BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE
`
`September 16, 2014
`September 16, 2014
`1
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · IN THE UNITED STATES
`· · · · · · · · · ·PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`·2
`
`·3· BROADCOM CORPORATION· · · · ·§
`· · · · Petitioner,· · · · · · · §
`·4· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·§· · · IPR No.· · · ·Patent
`· · VS.· · · · · · · · · · · · · §· ·IPR2013-00601 / 6,772,215
`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·§· ·IPR2013-00602 / 6,466,568
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·§· ·IPR2013-00636 / 6,424,625
`·6· WI-FI ONE· · · · · · · · · · §
`· · · · Repsondent.· · · · · · · §
`·7
`
`·8
`
`·9· · · · *********************************************
`
`10· · · · · · · · · · ·ORAL DEPOSITION OF
`
`11· · · · · · · · · · · ROBERT AKL, D.Sc.
`
`12· · · · · · · · · · ·SEPTEMBER 16, 2014
`
`13· · · · *********************************************
`
`14
`
`15· · · ORAL DEPOSITION of ROBERT AKL, D.Sc., produced as a
`
`16· witness at the instance of the Petitioner and duly sworn,
`
`17· was taken in the above-styled and -numbered cause on the
`
`18· 16th of September, 2014, from 9:00 a.m. to 5:24 p.m.,
`
`19· before Melisa Duncan, CSR in and for the State of Texas,
`
`20· reported by machine shorthand, at the offices of Bragalone
`
`21· Conroy, 2200 Ross Avenue, Suite 4500W, Dallas, Texas, in
`
`22· accordance with the United States Patent and Trademark
`
`23· Office Rules of Civil Procedure and agreement hereinafter
`
`24· set forth.
`
`25
`
`Broadcom v. Ericsson
`IPR2013-00636
`Broadcom 1021
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions.com
`EsquireSolutions.com
`
`
`ROBERT AKL, D.SC.
`
`BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE
`
`September 16, 2014
`September 16, 2014
`1
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · IN THE UNITED STATES
`· · · · · · · · · ·PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`·2
`
`·3· BROADCOM CORPORATION· · · · ·§
`· · · · Petitioner,· · · · · · · §
`·4· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·§· · · IPR No.· · · ·Patent
`· · VS.· · · · · · · · · · · · · §· ·IPR2013-00601 / 6,772,215
`·5· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·§· ·IPR2013-00602 / 6,466,568
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·§· ·IPR2013-00636 / 6,424,625
`·6· WI-FI ONE· · · · · · · · · · §
`· · · · Repsondent.· · · · · · · §
`·7
`
`·8
`
`·9· · · · *********************************************
`
`10· · · · · · · · · · ·ORAL DEPOSITION OF
`
`11· · · · · · · · · · · ROBERT AKL, D.Sc.
`
`12· · · · · · · · · · ·SEPTEMBER 16, 2014
`
`13· · · · *********************************************
`
`14
`
`15· · · ORAL DEPOSITION of ROBERT AKL, D.Sc., produced as a
`
`16· witness at the instance of the Petitioner and duly sworn,
`
`17· was taken in the above-styled and -numbered cause on the
`
`18· 16th of September, 2014, from 9:00 a.m. to 5:24 p.m.,
`
`19· before Melisa Duncan, CSR in and for the State of Texas,
`
`20· reported by machine shorthand, at the offices of Bragalone
`
`21· Conroy, 2200 Ross Avenue, Suite 4500W, Dallas, Texas, in
`
`22· accordance with the United States Patent and Trademark
`
`23· Office Rules of Civil Procedure and agreement hereinafter
`
`24· set forth.
`
`25
`
`Broadcom v. Ericsson
`IPR2013-00636
`Broadcom 1021
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions.com
`EsquireSolutions.com
`
`
`
`ROBERT AKL, D.SC.
`ROBERT AKL, D.SC.
`
`BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE
`
`September 16, 2014
`September 16, 2014
`2
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · A P P E A R A N C E S
`
`·2· FOR THE PETITIONER:
`
`·3· · · Zachary P. Piccolomini
`· · · · zachary.piccolomini@wilmerhale.com
`·4· · · Dominic E. Massa· · (Via Phone)
`· · · · dominic.massa@wilmerhale.com
`·5· · · WILMER CUTLER PICKERING HALE AND DORR LLP
`· · · · 60 State Street
`·6· · · Boston, Massachusetts 02109
`· · · · 617.526.6027
`·7
`
`·8· FOR THE PATENT OWNER AND ROBERT AKL, D.Sc.:
`
`·9· · · John M. Shumaker
`· · · · jshumaker@leehayes.com
`10· · · LEE & HAYES
`· · · · 13809 Research Boulevard, Suite 405
`11· · · Austin, Texas 78750
`· · · · 512.505.8162
`12
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`13
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`14
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`15
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`16
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`17
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`18
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`25
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`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions.com
`EsquireSolutions.com
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`
`
`ROBERT AKL, D.SC.
`ROBERT AKL, D.SC.
`
`BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE
`
`September 16, 2014
`September 16, 2014
`3
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · I N D E X
`
`·2· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
`
`·3· Appearances . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .· · 2
`
`·4· ROBERT AKL, D.Sc.
`
`·5· · · Examination by Mr. Piccolomini. . . . . . . . .· · 6
`
`·6· · · Examination by Mr. Shumaker . . . . . . . . . .· · 195
`
`·7· Signature and Changes . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .· · 199
`
`·8· Reporter's Certificate. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .· · 201
`
`·9· · · · · · · · · · · ·E X H I B I T S
`
`10· NO.· · · · · · · ·DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
`
`11· Exhibit 1009-568· · ·Declaration of Harry Bims, Ph.D. 6
`
`12· Exhibit 2021-568· · ·Declaration of Robert Akl, D.Sc., 6
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·IPR2013-00602, Motion to Amend
`13· Exhibit 2020-568· · ·Declaration of Robert Akl, D.Sc., 6
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·IPR2013-00602, Response
`14· Exhibit Paper 27-568 Paper 27, March 10, 2014,· · · · ·11
`
`15· Exhibit 1001-568· · ·U.S. Patent 6,566,568· · · · · · ·28
`
`16· Exhibit 1016-568· · ·Amendment· · · · · · · · · · · · ·63
`
`17· Exhibit 1012-568· · ·Patent Application, Multi-Rate· · 70
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·Radiocommunication Systems and
`18· · · · · · · · · · · ·Terminals
`
`19· Exhibit 1002-568· · ·U.S. Patent 5,488,610· · · · · · ·82
`
`20· Exhibit 1006-568· · ·U.S. Patent 5,541,662· · · · · · ·88
`
`21· Exhibit 2020-625· · ·Declaration of Robert Akl, D.Sc., 91
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·U.S. Patent 6,424,625
`22· Exhibit 1006-625· · ·Declaration of Harry Bims, Ph.D., 94
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·U.S. Patent 6,424,625
`23· Exhibit 1007-625· · ·Andreas Hettich, Diploma Paper,· ·103
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·April 17, 1996
`24· Exhibit Paper 25-625 Paper 25, March 10, 2014· · · · · 103
`
`25· Exhibit 1001-625· · ·U.S. Patent 6,424,625· · · · · · ·103
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions.com
`EsquireSolutions.com
`
`
`
`ROBERT AKL, D.SC.
`ROBERT AKL, D.SC.
`
`BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE
`
`September 16, 2014
`September 16, 2014
`4
`
`·1· · · · · · · · ·E X H I B I T S (Continued)
`
`·2· NO.· · · · · · · ·DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
`
`·3· Exhibit 2022-624· · ·Declaration of Robert Akl, D.Sc., 128
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·U.S. Patent 6,424,625
`·4· Exhibit 1002-625· · ·U.S. Patent 5,610,595· · · · · · ·134
`
`·5· Exhibit 2019-625· · ·Ulrich Vornefeld, Diploma Paper,· 142
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·April 1, 1997
`·6· Exhibit 1004-215· · ·Declaration of Harry Bims, Ph.D., 150
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·U.S. Patent 6,772,215
`·7· Exhibit Paper 29-215 Paper 29, IPR2013-00601· · · · · ·151
`
`·8· Exhibit 1001-215· · ·U.S. Patent 6,772,215· · · · · · ·160
`
`·9· Exhibit 2020-215· · ·Declaration of Robert Akl, D.Sc., 160
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·U.S. Patent 6,772,215
`10· Exhibit 1002-215· · ·U.S. Patent 6,581,176· · · · · · ·160
`
`11· Exhibit 2021-215· · ·Amendments to Claims· · · · · · · 186
`
`12· Exhibit 1010-215· · ·TIA/EIA Interim Standard· · · · · 191
`
`13
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`14
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`15
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`16
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`17
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`18
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`25
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`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions.com
`EsquireSolutions.comYVer1f
`
`
`
`ROBERT AKL, D.SC.
`ROBERT AKL, D.SC.
`
`BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE
`
`September 16, 2014
`September 16, 2014
`5
`
`·1· · · · · · · · · · P R O C E E D I N G S
`
`·2· · · · · · · ·THE REPORTER:· We are now on the record for
`
`·3· the oral deposition of Robert Akl, D.Sc.· The time is
`
`·4· approximately 9:00 a.m. on September 16, 2014.· In the
`
`·5· matter of Broadcom Corp. vs. Wi-Fi One, Case Nos.
`
`·6· IPR 2013-00601, IPR 2013-00602 and IPR 2013-00636, being
`
`·7· held in the United States Patent and Trademark Office.
`
`·8· · · · · · · ·The court reporter is Melisa Duncan,
`
`·9· representative of Esquire Deposition Solutions.
`
`10· · · · · · · ·Today's deposition is being held at
`
`11· Bragalone Conroy, located at 2200 Ross Avenue,
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`12· Suite 4500W, Dallas, Texas.
`
`13· · · · · · · ·Will counsel please state their appearances
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`14· for the record, after which I will then swear in the
`
`15· witness.
`
`16· · · · · · · ·MR. PICCOLOMINI:· Sure.· This is Zach
`
`17· Piccolomini on behalf of Broadcom Corporation, the
`
`18· petitioner.
`
`19· · · · · · · ·MR. SHUMAKER:· John Shumaker on behalf of
`
`20· the patent owner and also the deponent Robert Akl.
`
`21· · · · · · · · · · ·ROBERT AKL, D.Sc.,
`
`22· having been first duly sworn, testified as follows:
`
`23· · · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION
`
`24· BY MR. PICCOLOMINI:
`
`25· · · Q.· ·Good morning.
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions.com
`EsquireSolutions.comYVer1f
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`
`
`ROBERT AKL, D.SC.
`ROBERT AKL, D.SC.
`
`BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE
`
`·1· · · A.· ·Good morning.
`
`September 16, 2014
`September 16, 2014
`6
`
`·2· · · · · · · ·(Exhibits 1009-568, 2021-568 and
`
`·3· · · · · · · ·2020-568 were marked.)
`
`·4· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. PICCOLOMINI)· I just handed you those
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`·5· exhibits.· We'll get into those shortly.· I just wanted to
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`·6· admit them all at once.
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`·7· · · · · · · ·Have you been deposed before?
`
`·8· · · A.· ·Yes, I have.
`
`·9· · · Q.· ·How many times have you been deposed?
`
`10· · · A.· ·Eight times.
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`11· · · Q.· ·Eight times.· So with eight times, I'm sure
`
`12· you're familiar with the rules of deposition.· I'll just
`
`13· go over a few rules right now.· If at any point I ask a
`
`14· question that is unclear, please stop me and tell me the
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`15· question is unclear and I'll try to rephrase it, if
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`16· possible.· Please answer your questions verbally because
`
`17· this is being recorded by the court reporter.· So we do
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`18· need verbal answers instead of head nods or shakes.
`
`19· Please try not to speak over my questions and I'll
`
`20· certainly return the favor when you provide your answers.
`
`21· And, of course, your attorney may object to my questions
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`22· at certain points.· You're expected to still provide an
`
`23· answer unless he instructs you not to answer.
`
`24· · · · · · · ·So I handed you Exhibit 2020.· Do you see
`
`25· that exhibit?
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions.com
`EsquireSolutions.comYVer1f
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`ROBERT AKL, D.SC.
`ROBERT AKL, D.SC.
`
`BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE
`
`·1· · · A.· ·Yes, I do.
`
`September 16, 2014
`September 16, 2014
`7
`
`·2· · · · · · · ·MR. SHUMAKER:· Actually you want to also say
`
`·3· which case number just so the record is clear, as there's
`
`·4· multiple exhibits 2020.
`
`·5· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. PICCOLOMINI)· So I handed you
`
`·6· Exhibit 2020 for IPR 2013-602, which is the '568 IPR.· And
`
`·7· Exhibit 2020 is your declaration in support of patent
`
`·8· owner's response, correct?
`
`·9· · · A.· ·Yes, it is.
`
`10· · · Q.· ·Please turn to the page 38 of Exhibit 2020.· That
`
`11· is your signature on page 38, correct?
`
`12· · · A.· ·That is correct.
`
`13· · · Q.· ·Exhibit 2020 contains your opinions regarding the
`
`14· validity of the '568 patent, correct?
`
`15· · · A.· ·That is correct.
`
`16· · · Q.· ·In preparing Exhibit 2020, which is your
`
`17· declaration, you did your best to provide truthful,
`
`18· accurate and complete statements of your opinions
`
`19· regarding the alleged validity of the '568 patent,
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`20· correct?
`
`21· · · A.· ·That is correct.
`
`22· · · Q.· ·How much time did you spend drafting that
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`23· declaration?
`
`24· · · A.· ·Several hours.· I don't have a specific number.
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`25· I don't recall.
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`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`EsquireSolutions.com
`EsquireSolutions.comYVer1f
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`ROBERT AKL, D.SC.
`ROBERT AKL, D.SC.
`
`BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE
`
`September 16, 2014
`September 16, 2014
`8
`
`·1· · · Q.· ·Can you approximate whether it was tens of hours
`
`·2· or hundreds of hours?
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`·3· · · A.· ·Not hundreds of hours, tens of hours.
`
`·4· · · Q.· ·Between 30 to 50 hours?
`
`·5· · · A.· ·I don't know.· It would be hard to give you an
`
`·6· estimate because I was working on three different
`
`·7· declarations and I kept going back and forth, so . . .
`
`·8· · · Q.· ·Sure.· So for -- could you guess at how much time
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`·9· you spent drafting all of the declarations?
`
`10· · · A.· ·I don't have a number just for the declarations.
`
`11· I know we spent most part of one month on -- on the
`
`12· declarations.
`
`13· · · Q.· ·So about a month of time?
`
`14· · · A.· ·Right, so a lot of work probably in May and in
`
`15· June I spent on the -- the declarations.
`
`16· · · Q.· ·I also handed you a second exhibit, which is
`
`17· Exhibit 2021 for the '568 IPR.· And that is your
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`18· declaration in support of your -- of -- excuse me, in
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`19· support of patent owner's motion to amend, correct?
`
`20· · · A.· ·Yes, that is correct.
`
`21· · · Q.· ·Please turn to page 21.· That is your signature
`
`22· on page 21, correct?
`
`23· · · A.· ·Yes, that is correct.
`
`24· · · Q.· ·Exhibit 2021 for the '568 IPR contains your
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`25· opinions regarding the alleged validity of the '568 patent
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`800.211.DEPO (3376)
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
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`ROBERT AKL, D.SC.
`ROBERT AKL, D.SC.
`
`BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE
`
`September 16, 2014
`September 16, 2014
`9
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`·1· based on substitute claims 8 through 13, correct?
`
`·2· · · A.· ·Yes, that is correct.
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`·3· · · Q.· ·In preparing Exhibit 2021 of the '568 IPR, you
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`·4· did your best to provide truthful, accurate and complete
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`·5· statements of your opinions regarding the alleged validity
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`·6· of substitute claims 8 through 13, correct?
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`·7· · · A.· ·Yes, that is correct.
`
`·8· · · Q.· ·And I realize you said you've been deposed eight
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`·9· times before.· Have you ever been an expert in an IPR
`
`10· before?
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`11· · · A.· ·This -- those three cases would be my first IPR.
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`12· · · Q.· ·Have you been retained for any other IPRs?
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`13· · · A.· ·I am currently retained on a couple of IPRs.
`
`14· · · Q.· ·In addition to these three IPRs?
`
`15· · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`16· · · Q.· ·When you say couple, two other IPRs?
`
`17· · · A.· ·I have submitted a declaration in one IPR and I
`
`18· am expected to submit two declarations in two other IPRs.
`
`19· · · Q.· ·For the -- for those three different -- three
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`20· other IPRs besides these current three cases, are you on
`
`21· behalf of the patentholder or the petitioner?
`
`22· · · A.· ·I was retained on behalf of the petitioner.
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`23· · · Q.· ·Do you remember when you were first retained for
`
`24· the current cases?
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`25· · · A.· ·I think it was sometime in November 2013.
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
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`ROBERT AKL, D.SC.
`ROBERT AKL, D.SC.
`
`BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE
`
`September 16, 2014
`September 16, 2014
`10
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`·1· · · Q.· ·Can you approximate how many hours total you
`
`·2· spent working on these IPRs?
`
`·3· · · A.· ·I don't have an exact number but the amount of
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`·4· work varied, some months maybe just a few hours and then
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`·5· the months leading to the declarations, there was more
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`·6· work done.
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`·7· · · Q.· ·What is your hourly rate?
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`·8· · · A.· ·550.
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`·9· · · Q.· ·Can you estimate how much you have been
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`10· compensated for these proceedings?
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`11· · · A.· ·It might be easier to guess because I don' have
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`12· the number of hours.· I invoice monthly, and, again, it
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`13· has varied from month to month substantially.· If I were
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`14· to guess, I would say somewhere total maybe between 50 and
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`15· 100 hours per patent would be a good approximation.
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`16· · · Q.· ·Thank you.
`
`17· · · A.· ·That would be for all work from the beginning.
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`18· · · Q.· ·So 50 to 100 hours for your total work for each
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`19· case so far?
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`20· · · A.· ·That's a good guess, yes, that's a good . . .
`
`21· · · Q.· ·I also handed you Exhibit 1009 from the '568 IPR.
`
`22· That is a copy of Dr. Bims' declaration in support of
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`23· petitioner's IPR petition for the '568 patent, correct?
`
`24· · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`25· · · Q.· ·Dr. Bims is Broadcom's expert in this IPR
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`800.211.DEPO (3376)
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`ROBERT AKL, D.SC.
`ROBERT AKL, D.SC.
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`BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE
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`·1· proceeding, correct?
`
`·2· · · A.· ·I believe so, correct.
`
`September 16, 2014
`September 16, 2014
`11
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`·3· · · Q.· ·Prior to being retained in this proceeding, had
`
`·4· you heard of Dr. Bims?
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`·5· · · A.· ·I don't think I have.
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`·6· · · Q.· ·Do you have any opinion of Dr. Bims as a
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`·7· scientist?
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`·8· · · A.· ·No, I do not.
`
`·9· · · Q.· ·You reviewed and responded to Exhibit 1009 from
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`10· the '568 IPR as part of your work for Wi-Fi One, correct?
`
`11· · · A.· ·Yes.
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`12· · · Q.· ·How much time did you spend reviewing
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`13· Exhibit 1009?
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`14· · · A.· ·I would not have a specific time that I would
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`15· recall just looking at this one exhibit.
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`16· · · Q.· ·More than a few hours?
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`17· · · A.· ·Yes.
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`18· · · · · · · ·(Exhibit Paper 27 was marked.)
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`19· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. PICCOLOMINI)· I just handed you what was
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`20· marked as Exhibit Paper 27 for the '568 IPR -- I'm sorry.
`
`21· Yes, Paper 27 for the '568 IPR, correct?
`
`22· · · A.· ·Yes, that is correct.
`
`23· · · Q.· ·This is a copy of the '568 patent at issue in
`
`24· this IPR -- I'm sorry.· This is a copy of the decision on
`
`25· institution for the '568 IPR, correct?
`
`800.211.DEPO (3376)
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`BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE
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`September 16, 2014
`September 16, 2014
`12
`
`·1· · · A.· ·Yes, that is correct.
`
`·2· · · Q.· ·Could you please turn to page 9.· On page 9 of
`
`·3· Paper 27 on the third line down, the board's decision
`
`·4· states that, The '568 patent uses the term services to
`
`·5· refer to various types of information being transmitted on
`
`·6· traffic channels and explicitly lists facsimile
`
`·7· transmissions, packet data transmissions and other types
`
`·8· of information transmission.· Do you see that statement?
`
`·9· · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`10· · · Q.· ·Do you agree with that statement?
`
`11· · · A.· ·I believe in my declaration I rendered an opinion
`
`12· with regard to the construction that was provided by the
`
`13· board with regard to that statement.
`
`14· · · Q.· ·And we can discuss your construction later, but
`
`15· do you agree with the statement that the board made on
`
`16· page 9 that the '568 patent uses the terms services to
`
`17· refer to those various types of information, including
`
`18· facsimile transmissions, packet data transmissions and
`
`19· other types of information transmission?
`
`20· · · A.· ·This -- this -- yes, I agree with -- with how the
`
`21· term services is referred to in the '568.
`
`22· · · Q.· ·And you would agree that, as the board explained,
`
`23· other types of information can include video or hybrid
`
`24· voice, data and video to support Internet connections?
`
`25· · · A.· ·Yes, the -- the board, I believe, is quoting part
`
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`BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE
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`September 16, 2014
`September 16, 2014
`13
`
`·1· of the specification of the '568, that is correct.
`
`·2· · · Q.· ·The next sentence, the board provides its
`
`·3· broadest reasonableness interpretation of the term service
`
`·4· type identifier.· Do you see that on page 9 of Paper 27?
`
`·5· · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`·6· · · Q.· ·The board's construction is an identified --
`
`·7· identifies the type of information conveyed in the payload
`
`·8· including but not limited to video, voice, data and
`
`·9· multimedia, correct?
`
`10· · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`11· · · Q.· ·And you disagree with the board's construction?
`
`12· · · A.· ·That is correct.· I provided an opinion in my
`
`13· declaration explaining my opinion with regard to the
`
`14· construction of service type identifier.
`
`15· · · Q.· ·Please turn to page 11 of Paper 27.
`
`16· · · A.· ·I'm sorry, which page?
`
`17· · · Q.· ·Page 11.
`
`18· · · A.· ·I'm sorry to interrupt.· But can we do a
`
`19· couple-minute break?
`
`20· · · Q.· ·Absolutely.
`
`21· · · · · · · ·(Recess from 9:20 a.m. to 9:26 a.m.)
`
`22· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. PICCOLOMINI)· Could you please turn to
`
`23· page 11 of Paper 27 for the '568 patent.
`
`24· · · A.· ·Okay.
`
`25· · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you see on page 11 at the bottom where
`
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`ROBERT AKL, D.SC.
`ROBERT AKL, D.SC.
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`BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE
`
`September 16, 2014
`September 16, 2014
`14
`
`·1· the board states, That 16 possible headers for supporting
`
`·2· one voice channel and up to three data channels are shown
`
`·3· in the table below?
`
`·4· · · A.· ·Correct.
`
`·5· · · Q.· ·And the board shows on page 12 the table showing
`
`·6· the different header types, correct?
`
`·7· · · A.· ·Yes, correct.
`
`·8· · · Q.· ·And you agree with the board's statement that the
`
`·9· possible header support one voice channel and up to three
`
`10· data channels as shown in that table on page 12?
`
`11· · · A.· ·Yes, you can have different configurations.· And
`
`12· in the table, you have 16 different configurations.
`
`13· · · Q.· ·And this --
`
`14· · · A.· ·And those include one voice or up to one voice
`
`15· and up to three data.
`
`16· · · Q.· ·And there are also configurations in that table
`
`17· showing a combination of voice and different data
`
`18· channels, correct?
`
`19· · · A.· ·Yes, that is correct.
`
`20· · · Q.· ·Okay.· So on page 12 towards the bottom, the
`
`21· third line from the bottom, the board states that, A frame
`
`22· may contain at least a field V for voice or D for nonvoice
`
`23· data in which payload information is disposed.· Do you
`
`24· agree with that statement?
`
`25· · · A.· ·Yes, I think at least the first part of the
`
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`BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE
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`September 16, 2014
`September 16, 2014
`15
`
`·1· statement where it describes the field V or D, V for voice
`
`·2· and D for nonvoice, data.· I'm -- I'm not sure I would
`
`·3· have phrased the second part of this statement where it
`
`·4· says in which payload information is disposed.· I mean,
`
`·5· these are headers in this multiplex frame that's being
`
`·6· identified.
`
`·7· · · Q.· ·I believe that statement is referring to the
`
`·8· payload.· If you look at the next sentence, the board
`
`·9· states, A frame also contains a separate field H for the
`
`10· header that identifies the frame type.
`
`11· · · · · · · ·MR. SHUMAKER:· Is that a question or a
`
`12· statement?· Sorry.
`
`13· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. PICCOLOMINI)· I'm sorry.· Excuse me.
`
`14· · · · · · · ·Would you agree that the board was stating
`
`15· that the field -- excuse me, that the frame may contain
`
`16· voice or nonvoice data as payload information?
`
`17· · · A.· ·Yes, that sentence actually makes more sense when
`
`18· I look at figures 5A to 5G because I think that's what
`
`19· they're referring to.· So the letter V and the letter D
`
`20· are used for the field for voice and for data, that is
`
`21· correct.
`
`22· · · Q.· ·Yes, thank you.
`
`23· · · · · · · ·So, for example, referring to figure 5B,
`
`24· that shows frame type two which has voice only which shows
`
`25· the field V in the payload for voice data, correct?
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`BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE
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`September 16, 2014
`September 16, 2014
`16
`
`·1· · · A.· ·Yes, that is correct.
`
`·2· · · Q.· ·And similarly, for example, figure 5C shows frame
`
`·3· type four, which is data only, which shows D for nonvoice
`
`·4· data in the payload field, correct?
`
`·5· · · A.· ·Yes, that is the caption with respect to
`
`·6· figure 5C.· It says frame type for data only.
`
`·7· · · Q.· ·And figure 5C shows D in the payload?
`
`·8· · · A.· ·I'm sorry, which?
`
`·9· · · Q.· ·Excuse me.· So figure 5C, which you just read the
`
`10· caption from, shows D for nonvoice data in the payload
`
`11· field, correct?
`
`12· · · A.· ·Yes, it uses the letter D to denote data.
`
`13· · · Q.· ·The decision's next statement reads, A frame --
`
`14· this is the bottom of page 12 on to the top of page 13.
`
`15· It reads, A frame also contains a separate field H,
`
`16· header, that identifies the frame type, i.e., the type of
`
`17· payload information as voice only, data only or voice and
`
`18· data.· Do you agree with that statement?
`
`19· · · A.· ·Not exactly.· I would not have phrased it that
`
`20· way.· My opinion is that Morley does not disclose an
`
`21· identifier that identifies a type of information conveyed
`
`22· in the payload.· And so H is identifying -- is referring
`
`23· to the contents of the multiplex frame.· So Morley
`
`24· discloses 13 types of composite frames and -- that
`
`25· transport data out of the 16 total.· There are 13 types of
`
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`ROBERT AKL, D.SC.
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`BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE
`
`September 16, 2014
`September 16, 2014
`17
`
`·1· composite frames that transport data.· And the header is
`
`·2· merely a shorthand notation for the structure of the
`
`·3· multiplex frame.
`
`·4· · · Q.· ·So to make sure I understand you.· If the
`
`·5· header -- let's refer to figure 5C, please, of Morley,
`
`·6· which is shown on page 11 of the decision.· Figure 5C of
`
`·7· Morley shows a header indicating that the field only
`
`·8· contains data; is that correct?
`
`·9· · · A.· ·So figure 5C contains the header field and the
`
`10· header field shows or conveys the structure of that frame.
`
`11· · · Q.· ·And what is the structure of the frame in
`
`12· figure 5C?
`
`13· · · A.· ·The structure in -- for example, in figure 5C is
`
`14· one that contains data.
`
`15· · · Q.· ·Okay.· So the header in figure 5C indicates that
`
`16· the frame contains data; is that correct?
`
`17· · · A.· ·Well, the -- the -- the header provides you the
`
`18· structure for the -- for the frame.· And in this case, the
`
`19· frame is -- contains data.
`
`20· · · Q.· ·Okay.· So to make sure I understand you.
`
`21· Figure 5C, the header indicates the structure of the frame
`
`22· shown in figure 5C, which in figure 5C the structure
`
`23· contains data in the payload?
`
`24· · · A.· ·Yeah, so -- yes, so the -- the header is --
`
`25· provides a shorthand notation for the structure of the
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`ROBERT AKL, D.SC.
`ROBERT AKL, D.SC.
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`BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE
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`September 16, 2014
`September 16, 2014
`18
`
`·1· multiplex frame and figure 5C would be an example where
`
`·2· that multiplex frame contains data.
`
`·3· · · Q.· ·And maybe it will help clear this up if I also
`
`·4· refer to another figure.· So, for example, figure 5B, the
`
`·5· header indicates that the structure of the multiplex -- of
`
`·6· the multiplex frame only contains the voice data?
`
`·7· · · · · · · ·MR. SHUMAKER:· Objection, form.
`
`·8· · · A.· ·Well, in figure 5B, the multiplex frame contains
`
`·9· voice data but it contains other information.· There's
`
`10· also a CS field and an F field.· And that's I think where
`
`11· I'm coming from as far as the -- the header type here is
`
`12· describing the structure of the multiplex frame, not just
`
`13· the payload, it's the whole frame.
`
`14· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. PICCOLOMINI)· Okay.· So figure 5B, the
`
`15· header is indicating that the multiplex or frame includes
`
`16· those three fields shown, which is the voice data as well
`
`17· as the CS field and the F field; is that correct?
`
`18· · · A.· ·The -- so the -- the header tells you that what's
`
`19· in the -- in the frame.· And in figure 5B, the frame
`
`20· contains voice.· There's no data in 5B.
`
`21· · · Q.· ·Okay.· And then compared to figure 5C, the header
`
`22· shows that it contains -- so contrast -- contrasting with
`
`23· figure 5B, which contains the voice, and the header in
`
`24· figure 5C indicates it contains the data?
`
`25· · · A.· ·So in both figures 5B and 5C, the header is
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`800.211.DEPO (3376)
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`ROBERT AKL, D.SC.
`ROBERT AKL, D.SC.
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`BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE
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`September 16, 2014
`September 16, 2014
`19
`
`·1· telling you the structure of the frame.· In figure 5B
`
`·2· would be an example of a multiplex frame that contains
`
`·3· voice.· And figure 5C is an example of a multiplex frame
`
`·4· that contains data.
`
`·5· · · Q.· ·And the receiver would know the different formats
`
`·6· of those frames based on the headers, correct?
`
`·7· · · A.· ·The receiver would know what is the structure of
`
`·8· the frame based on the header.
`
`·9· · · Q.· ·So, for example, with figure 5B, it would know
`
`10· that the frame includes the voice data, correct?
`
`11· · · A.· ·That's one thing that the -- the header specifies
`
`12· the structure of the frame and part of the structure of
`
`13· the frame is that it contains voice.
`
`14· · · Q.· ·Okay.· And similarly with figure 5C, the
`
`15· header -- upon receipt, the header would indicate that the
`
`16· frame structure contains data?
`
`17· · · A.· ·Similarly with figure 5C, the header would denote
`
`18· the structure of the multiplex frame.· And in figure 5C,
`
`19· that structure of the frame contains data.
`
`20· · · Q.· ·Okay.· Thank you.
`
`21· · · · · · · ·Could you please turn to page 15 of Paper 27
`
`22· for the '568 IPR?
`
`23· · · · · · · ·MR. SHUMAKER:· Which page is that again?
`
`24· · · · · · · ·MR. PICCOLOMINI:· Paper 27 at page 15.
`
`25· · · A.· ·Okay.
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`800.211.DEPO (3376)
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`ROBERT AKL, D.SC.
`ROBERT AKL, D.SC.
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`BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE
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`September 16, 2014
`September 16, 2014
`20
`
`·1· · · Q.· ·(BY MR. PICCOLOMINI)· This is part of the section
`
`·2· of the decision that is referring to the Adams prior art
`
`·3· patent, correct?
`
`·4· · · A.· ·Yes, that is correct.
`
`·5· · · Q.· ·On page 15, the decision states in the fourth
`
`·6· line down that, referring to figure 5, which is also shown
`
`·7· on page 15, That video packet 80 includes, one, a video
`
`·8· payload that provides digital video data and, two, a
`
`·9· header with a video identifier that identifies the packet
`
`10· as carrying video data.· Do you agree with that statement?
`
`11· · · A.· ·I believe the audio ID and the video ID and
`
`12· similarly the data ID are tags that are in the header that
`
`13· identify three separate frames.
`
`14· · · Q.· ·And what are those three separate frames?
`
`15· · · A.· ·So you have a video tag for a frame.· You have an
`
`16· audio tag for a frame.· And you have a data tag for a
`
`17· frame.· So they are labels for these data packets.
`
`18· · · Q.· ·So would you agree with the petitions -- excuse
`
`19· me, would you agree with the decision's statement that the
`
`20· video identifier, excuse me, identifies the packet as
`
`21· carrying video data?
`
`22· · · A.· ·The -- the video ID is a label that identifies
`
`23· that frame.· And the -- the tag is used basically for
`
`24· routing.· But, yes, so it would be routed to a -- for
`
`25· example, a video queue versus an audio ID that would make
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`800.211.DEPO (3376)
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`ROBERT AKL, D.SC.
`ROBERT AKL, D.SC.
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`BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE
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`September 16, 2014
`September 16, 2014
`21
`
`·1· it routed to an audio queue.· Similarly a data ID would
`
`·2· make it routed to a data queue.· So it is the video ID,
`
`·3· audio ID and data ID are labels for the three types of
`
`·4· frames that's used to identify which queue those packets
`
`·5· need to go to.
`
`·6· · · Q.· ·Is that -- excuse me.· Is the receiver able to
`
`·7· use the video ID, the audio ID or the data ID to determine
`
`·8· how to process the packet?
`
`·9· · · A.· ·I don't think the ID gives you any information as
`
`10· to how to process the packet.· The ID merely flags which
`
`11· queue the packet would go to.· And then the queue for
`
`12· video would include information of how to process video
`
`13· and the queue for audio would contain information to
`
`14· process the audio.· And so on.· So the video ID and the
`
`15· audio ID and the data ID in themselves, they're just
`
`16· labels to which queue the packet goes to.· It does not
`
`17· give you any information on processing the video or the
`
`18· audio respectively.
`
`19· · · Q.· ·So the receiver can determine which queue to send
`
`20· the data packet to for processing based on the video ID,
`
`21· audio ID or data ID, correct?
`
`22· · · A.· ·That is correct.· The -- the video ID, audio ID
`
`23· and data ID is used as a label that the receiver -- that
`
`24· the receiver can then select which queue the packet goes
`
`25· to.· And then there's specific hardware for video,
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`800.211.DEPO (3376)
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`ROBERT AKL, D.SC.
`ROBERT AKL, D.SC.
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`BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE
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`September 16, 2014
`September 16, 2014
`22
`
`·1· hardware for audio and hardware for the data queue.
`
`·2· · · Q.· ·So then you disagree with the petition -- excuse
`
`·3· me.· So you disagree with Paper 27, which is the decision
`
`·4· on institution that the video identifier identifies the
`
`·5· packet as carrying video data?
`
`·6· · · A.· ·The video ID is a label that shows that the frame
`
`·7· needs to be routed to the video queue.· That's my
`
`·8· understanding reading the specification of what the video
`
`·9· ID information tells you.
`
`10· · · Q.· ·Okay.· And just to understand whether you agree
`
`11· or disagree with the decision statement, do you agree or
`
`12· disagree that the video ID identifies the packet as
`
`13· carrying video data?
`
`14· · · A.· ·The video ID is a label for the frame.· And if
`
`15· it's a video ID, then the frame does have video.· But the
`
`16· video ID doesn't necessarily give you more information on
`
`17· the payload.· It just provides information to which queue
`
`18· the packet needs to go to.
`
`19· · · Q.· ·So it does or does not identify the packet as
`
`20· carrying video data?
`
`21· · · A.· ·I think it does.· It does identify that the --
`
`22· this packet needs to be routed to the video queue.
`
`23· · · Q.· ·Okay.· So the video identifier identifies that
`
`24· the packet needs to be routed to the video queue because
`
`25· it carries video data?
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`800.211.DEPO (3376)
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`BROADCOM vs. WI-FI ONE BROADCOM vs. WI-FI O
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