LKQ CORPORATION v.
`CLEARLAMP, LLC
`
`Page 1
` 1 UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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` 2 _______
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` 3 BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` 4 _______
`
` 5 LKQ CORPORATION )
` )
` 6 Petitioner )
` )
` 7 V. )
` )
` 8 CLEARLAMP, LLC )
` )
` 9 Patent Owner )
` __________________)
`10
` Case IPR2013-00020
`11
` Patent 7,297,364
`12
`
`13
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`14 The telephonic deposition of HARVEY BELL taken
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`15 telephonically before Angela C. Loisi, Certified
`
`16 Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public, taken pursuant
`
`17 to the provisions of the Illinois Code of Civil
`
`18 Procedure and the Rules of the Supreme Court thereof
`
`19 pertaining to the taking of depositions for the
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`20 purpose of discovery via a dial-in conference call,
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`21 commencing at 1:03 p.m. on November 12, 2013.
`
`22 (Proceedings ended at 1:58 p.m.)
`
`23 Reporter: Angela C. Loisi, CSR, RPR
` License No.: 084-00457
`24
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`HARVEY BELL
`November 12, 2013
`Page 3
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` 1 I N D E X
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` 3 WITNESS: HARVEY BELL PAGE
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` 4 Examination by Mr. Engel 4
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` 5
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` 6 E X H I B I T S
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` 8 HARVEY BELL EXHIBIT NO. PAGE
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` 1 APPEARANCES:
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` 2 K&L GATES, LLP
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` 3 BY: MR. JASON ENGEL &
`
` 4 MR. VIREN SONI
`
` 5 70 West Madison Street, Suite 3100
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` 6 Chicago, Illinois 60602
`
` 7 (312) 372-1121
`
` 8 Representing the Petitioner;
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` 9
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`10 HARNESS DICKEY
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`11 BY: MR. DOUG ROBINSON
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`12 7700 Bonhomme, Suite 400
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`13 Clayton, MO 63105
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`14 (314) 726-7500
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`15 Representing the Patent Owner.
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` 1 (Witness sworn.)
` 2 MR. ENGEL: This is Jason Engel for
` 3 Petitioner, LKQ.
` 4 WHEREUPON:
` 5 HARVEY BELL,
` 6 called as a witness herein, having been first duly
` 7 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
` 8 EXAMINATION
` 9 BY MR. ENGEL:
`10 Q. Mr. Bell, thank you for taking the time to
`11 sit for this limited deposition.
`12 And it's your understanding that you're here
`13 to talk about a few minor points in your declaration.
`14 Is that your understanding?
`15 A. That is correct. Paragraph 54, 55 and 79.
`16 Q. Okay. And have you had an opportunity to
`17 review those paragraphs in preparation for the
`18 deposition today?
`19 A. Yes.
`20 Q. Okay. Let's go to Paragraph 54 of your
`21 declaration.
`22 Do you have that there in front of you?
`23 A. I -- I do. Let me go to Page --
`24 Paragraph 54.
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`

`
`LKQ CORPORATION v.
`CLEARLAMP, LLC
`
`Page 1
` 1 UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` 2 _______
`
` 3 BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` 4 _______
`
` 5 LKQ CORPORATION )
` )
` 6 Petitioner )
` )
` 7 V. )
` )
` 8 CLEARLAMP, LLC )
` )
` 9 Patent Owner )
` __________________)
`10
` Case IPR2013-00020
`11
` Patent 7,297,364
`12
`
`13
`
`14 The telephonic deposition of HARVEY BELL taken
`
`15 telephonically before Angela C. Loisi, Certified
`
`16 Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public, taken pursuant
`
`17 to the provisions of the Illinois Code of Civil
`
`18 Procedure and the Rules of the Supreme Court thereof
`
`19 pertaining to the taking of depositions for the
`
`20 purpose of discovery via a dial-in conference call,
`
`21 commencing at 1:03 p.m. on November 12, 2013.
`
`22 (Proceedings ended at 1:58 p.m.)
`
`23 Reporter: Angela C. Loisi, CSR, RPR
` License No.: 084-00457
`24
`
`HARVEY BELL
`November 12, 2013
`Page 3
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` 1 I N D E X
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` 2
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` 3 WITNESS: HARVEY BELL PAGE
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` 4 Examination by Mr. Engel 4
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` 5
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` 6 E X H I B I T S
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` 7
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` 8 HARVEY BELL EXHIBIT NO. PAGE
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` 9
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`10 (NO EXHIBITS MARKED)
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`Page 4
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` 1 APPEARANCES:
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` 2 K&L GATES, LLP
`
` 3 BY: MR. JASON ENGEL &
`
` 4 MR. VIREN SONI
`
` 5 70 West Madison Street, Suite 3100
`
` 6 Chicago, Illinois 60602
`
` 7 (312) 372-1121
`
` 8 Representing the Petitioner;
`
` 9
`
`10 HARNESS DICKEY
`
`11 BY: MR. DOUG ROBINSON
`
`12 7700 Bonhomme, Suite 400
`
`13 Clayton, MO 63105
`
`14 (314) 726-7500
`
`15 Representing the Patent Owner.
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`16
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`17
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` 1 (Witness sworn.)
` 2 MR. ENGEL: This is Jason Engel for
` 3 Petitioner, LKQ.
` 4 WHEREUPON:
` 5 HARVEY BELL,
` 6 called as a witness herein, having been first duly
` 7 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
` 8 EXAMINATION
` 9 BY MR. ENGEL:
`10 Q. Mr. Bell, thank you for taking the time to
`11 sit for this limited deposition.
`12 And it's your understanding that you're here
`13 to talk about a few minor points in your declaration.
`14 Is that your understanding?
`15 A. That is correct. Paragraph 54, 55 and 79.
`16 Q. Okay. And have you had an opportunity to
`17 review those paragraphs in preparation for the
`18 deposition today?
`19 A. Yes.
`20 Q. Okay. Let's go to Paragraph 54 of your
`21 declaration.
`22 Do you have that there in front of you?
`23 A. I -- I do. Let me go to Page --
`24 Paragraph 54.
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`LKQ CORPORATION v.
`CLEARLAMP, LLC
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`Page 5
`
`HARVEY BELL
`November 12, 2013
`Page 7
`
` 1 Okay. I'm looking at Paragraph 54.
` 2 Q. And for the record, this is Exhibit 2004.
` 3 And looking over Paragraph 54 and 55, it
` 4 appears from my understanding, that there were three
` 5 different experiments performed.
` 6 Is that your understanding as well?
` 7 A. Well, I want to go back and check.
` 8 Q. And maybe I can help direct you a little bit.
` 9 It appears in Paragraph 54 that there was an
`10 experiment done at 1200 grit sandpaper, which you have
`11 a picture following --
`12 A. Yes.
`13 Q. -- Paragraph 54?
`14 So that would --
`15 A. Yes.
`16 Q. -- be one --
`17 A. Yeah.
`18 THE COURT REPORTER: And if I could just ask
`19 you to please speak one at a time for the record, so
`20 it's clear for the interruptions, please?
`21 THE WITNESS: Okay. We will speak one at a
`22 time.
`23 BY MR. ENGEL:
`24 Q. This is Jason Engel again.
`
` 1 A. Yes. So that -- if it has -- so this is
` 2 Harvey Bell speaking.
` 3 So 1200 grit sandpaper does not get clear
` 4 coat off. Therefore, the 1500 grit sandpaper is
` 5 substantially finer than the 1200 grit sandpaper
` 6 that's -- excuse me.
` 7 The 1500 grit sandpaper is substantially
` 8 finer than the 1200 grit sandpaper. And 1500 grit
` 9 sandpaper will not get the clear coat off.
`10 Q. Okay. So speaking on the experiment in
`11 Paragraph 54 with the 1200 grit sandpaper, who
`12 performed that test?
`13 A. The people at the -- at the plant.
`14 Q. What people at what plant?
`15 A. The people at the patent -- the patent owners
`16 plant.
`17 Q. And you're referring to Clearlamp when you
`18 said the "patent owners"?
`19 A. Yes.
`20 Q. Do you know who at Clearlamp performed this
`21 test?
`22 A. I can find out. I talked to them. I don't
`23 remember their name at the moment.
`24 Q. Were you present for this test?
`
`Page 6
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`Page 8
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` 1 In Paragraph 55, it appears there are two
` 2 different experiments. One at 1500 grit sandpaper and
` 3 one at 320 grit sandpaper.
` 4 Is that your understanding?
` 5 A. Yes.
` 6 Q. Okay.
` 7 A. And for -- this is Harvey.
` 8 Q. And, Mr. Bell, for the experiment in
` 9 Paragraph 55, you provided a YouTube link for each of
`10 those experiments to show videos of those experiments
`11 being conducted.
`12 Is that correct?
`13 A. That is correct.
`14 Q. And you do not have any video evidence of the
`15 experiment in Paragraph 54.
`16 Is that correct?
`17 A. That is correct.
`18 Q. Okay. So the experiment in Paragraph 54,
`19 what was the purpose of that experiment?
`20 A. The experiment in 54 established that 1500
`21 grit sandpaper does not get the clear coat off.
`22 Q. But the experiment in 54 used 1200 grit
`23 sandpaper.
`24 Is that correct?
`
` 1 A. I was not present for the test.
` 2 Q. Do you know what the clear coat on the
` 3 headlamp was as they were trying to remove?
` 4 A. No. I do not know exactly what the clear
` 5 coat composition was on the lamp.
` 6 Q. Do you know if the lamp was braced at all
` 7 using any type of jig or other structure?
` 8 A. No. I do not know exactly the -- how it
` 9 was -- whether it was braced in a jig.
`10 Q. And, also, just for the record to be clear,
`11 it looks like in that same experiment you say one
`12 portion was sanded with 1200 grit sandpaper, and the
`13 other portion was sanded with 320 grit sandpaper.
`14 Is that correct?
`15 A. That's what I was saying, yes.
`16 Q. Okay. And in your declaration you say the
`17 bottom half of the lamp was sanded for about five
`18 minutes with 1200 grit sandpaper.
`19 Yet, in the picture, the bottom half appears
`20 to have a cloudy appearance indicating that the clear
`21 coat was removed.
`22 Is that correct?
`23 MR. ROBINSON: Objection; form.
`24 This is Robinson.
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`LKQ CORPORATION v.
`CLEARLAMP, LLC
`
`Page 9
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`HARVEY BELL
`November 12, 2013
`Page 11
`
` 1 BY MR. ENGEL:
` 2 Q. You can answer, Mr. Bell.
` 3 A. But Robinson objected.
` 4 Q. That's fine. You can answer, unless you do
` 5 not understand my question.
` 6 MR. ROBINSON: Could we maybe get the
` 7 question red back?
` 8 This is Robinson.
` 9 MR. ENGEL: Yeah. I will rephrase it.
`10 BY MR. ENGEL:
`11 Q. In Paragraph 54, you say:
`12 "Clearlamp then set up a test
`13 where the bottom half of a
`14 lamp was sanded for about five
`15 minutes with a 1200 grit
`16 sandpaper."
`17 Do you see that?
`18 A. Yes.
`19 Q. And you go on to say:
`20 "And the top portion was
`21 sanded with a powered orbital
`22 sander using 320 grit
`23 sandpaper for five minutes."
`24 Do you see that?
`
` 1 A. No, it doesn't indicate that.
` 2 Q. What does it indicate?
` 3 A. It indicates that there's still a surface. I
` 4 mean, it's -- it's all cloudy.
` 5 Q. Okay. So if the surface is cloudy then the
` 6 clear coat hadn't been removed?
` 7 A. Yes. Yes. That's -- you can see -- you
` 8 know, if it has gone and not taken everything off,
` 9 there's a -- that cloudy -- is a residue that's
`10 remaining.
`11 Q. Okay. Well, then let's go to Page 22 of your
`12 declaration where you have two pictures. One of 1500
`13 grit experiment, and another one of a 320 grit
`14 experiment.
`15 Do you see that?
`16 A. Yes.
`17 Q. And the 320 grit experiment, do you agree
`18 with me that the entire surface of the headlamp is
`19 cloudy?
`20 A. Yup.
`21 Q. So based on your testimony, the clear coat
`22 has not been removed at the 320 grit sandpaper.
`23 Is that correct?
`24 A. No. It would be the -- in this experiment,
`
`Page 10
`
`Page 12
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` 1 A. Yes.
` 2 Q. And it says:
` 3 "As shown in the picture, the
` 4 difference is" --
` 5 I think there's some grammar errors here.
` 6 "The difference is clear coat
` 7 removal are substantial."
` 8 Do you see that?
` 9 A. As shown in the picture, the differences --
`10 the difference of clear coat removal is substantial.
`11 Yes, I see that.
`12 Q. Okay. And there's a picture on the following
`13 page, Page 21 --
`14 A. Yes.
`15 Q. -- headlamps; correct?
`16 A. Right.
`17 Q. And in that headlamp, the top half of the
`18 headlamp is clear, and the bottom half of the headlamp
`19 is cloudy; correct?
`20 A. The bottom half of the headlamp is cloudy.
`21 The top half of the headlamp is not completely clear.
`22 Q. Okay. And the bottom half of the headlamp
`23 being cloudy indicates that the clear coat has been
`24 removed; correct?
`
` 1 it was slightly different. The -- there's an
` 2 intermediate layer there in terms of this experiment.
` 3 So let's go back and review the -- the
` 4 intermedium layer there is the red coating; right?
` 5 Okay. So the -- when you take the 320 grits
` 6 it does the first of the step of getting rid of
` 7 everything.
` 8 But, clearly, the point that we are
` 9 establishing is that 1500 grit or 1200 grit sandpaper
`10 does not remove the clear coat.
`11 You got to start -- you've got to start and
`12 get the 320 so that the red clear coat is removed to
`13 get the very date done.
`14 And then you got to -- then it's the -- 364
`15 clearly demonstrates to get the process finished, you
`16 need to go through and -- the entire lamp has to be
`17 cleaned as a clear coat.
`18 Q. Okay. Let's go back to the figure on
`19 Page 21. As you sit here today, do you know which
`20 sandpaper was divided by which region of this lamp?
`21 MR. ROBINSON: Objection.
`22 Robinson. Objection; asked and answered.
`23 BY MR. ENGEL:
`24 Q. You could answer, Mr. Bell.
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`LKQ CORPORATION v.
`CLEARLAMP, LLC
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`Page 13
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`HARVEY BELL
`November 12, 2013
`Page 15
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` 1 A. So in the deposition, the bottom -- it says
` 2 pretty clear. Clearly set up the test for the bottom
` 3 half of the lamp, was standard for about five minutes
` 4 with the 1200 grit paper.
` 5 Okay. So it is -- you're asking what that
` 6 sentence means.
` 7 Is that correct?
` 8 Q. You weren't there when this experiment was
` 9 conducted; correct?
`10 A. I was not there. I -- but I was trying to
`11 understand your question. Did you not understand
`12 those -- the words in the sentence?
`13 Q. I understand -- I understand the words in the
`14 sentence, Mr. Bell.
`15 I am trying to establish whether you know for
`16 a fact which sandpaper was applied to which reading
`17 and what your basis for that understanding is.
`18 A. So obviously I was not at -- present at the
`19 test when they actually did it.
`20 Q. And so the basis --
`21 A. My basis is the -- is the -- is the document,
`22 the description that was provided to me.
`23 Q. There was a document provided to you?
`24 A. Well, in the -- in the e-mail description
`
` 1 Was it an e-mail or a telephone call or --
` 2 A. It's an e-mail.
` 3 Q. Okay.
` 4 A. I don't remember who -- I told you, I didn't
` 5 remember who sent me the e-mail.
` 6 Q. And do you know if that e-mail was attached
` 7 as an exhibit in your declaration?
` 8 A. I -- I don't know that. I don't believe it
` 9 was attached. I would have to go back and look at
`10 every exhibit on the declaration.
`11 Q. Okay. Well, we don't need to do that now.
`12 Same with the experiment in Paragraph 54, did
`13 you inspect the lamp depicted there before the test
`14 was conducted?
`15 A. No. I did not inspect the lamp before the
`16 test was conducted.
`17 Now, quite frankly, this whole line of
`18 discussion is based on establishing that the Clearlamp
`19 did not get re -- the clear coat did not get removed
`20 from the corners.
`21 Q. Okay. I would appreciate if you just
`22 answered the question that I asked, Mr. Bell.
`23 MR. ROBINSON: Objection; argumentative.
`24 BY MR. ENGEL:
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`Page 14
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`Page 16
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` 1 of -- much the same way as what we're looking at right
` 2 now.
` 3 Q. Okay. Who sent you that e-mail?
` 4 MR. ROBINSON: Doug Robinson. Objection;
` 5 misstates testimony.
` 6 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure, to tell you the
` 7 truth.
` 8 BY MR. ENGEL:
` 9 Q. But did somebody at Clearlamp send you an
`10 e-mail?
`11 A. To tell you the truth, I just said, I'm not
`12 sure. And I don't remember who exactly sent it to me.
`13 Q. So your knowledge of which sandpaper was used
`14 to sand down part of the land surface comes entirely
`15 from outside of your own personal knowledge from
`16 another party; right?
`17 MR. ROBINSON: Objection; misstates
`18 testimony.
`19 THE WITNESS: So my -- my knowledge of what
`20 was -- happened here is based on the testing that --
`21 in the description of the test.
`22 BY MR. ENGEL:
`23 Q. And how did you receive that description of
`24 the testing?
`
` 1 Q. So you did not inspect the lamp before it was
` 2 tested; correct?
` 3 A. No, I didn't inspect the lamp before it was
` 4 tested.
` 5 Q. And did you inspect the lamp after it was
` 6 tested?
` 7 A. No, I did not inspect the lamp after it was
` 8 tested.
` 9 Q. Do you know the make and model of the car
`10 that the lamp comes from?
`11 A. No, I do not know the make and model of the
`12 car that the lamp -- the car or lamp come from.
`13 Q. Do you know whether the lamp was brand new?
`14 A. I do not know whether or not the lamp was
`15 brand new.
`16 Q. And earlier we talked about you did not know
`17 what clear coat was applied to the lamp.
`18 Do you know --
`19 A. It's a chemical composition. I do not know
`20 what chemical composition was applied to the lamp.
`21 Q. Do you know if it had ever had a clear coat
`22 removed from the lamp and reapplied?
`23 A. No. I do not know whether or not they
`24 removed a clear coat and reapplied a clear coat.
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`LKQ CORPORATION v.
`CLEARLAMP, LLC
`
`Page 17
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`HARVEY BELL
`November 12, 2013
`Page 19
`
` 1 Q. Now, in the experiment in Paragraph 54, it's
` 2 your testimony that the orbital standard using the 320
` 3 grit sandpaper was used for five minutes, it was able
` 4 to remove the clear coat.
` 5 Is that correct?
` 6 A. Yes.
` 7 Q. Okay. And it was also able to remove the
` 8 clear coat in the corners of the lamp as well, right,
` 9 the limited access corners where it was applied.
`10 A. Yes. The lamp would have been removed from
`11 the vehicle.
`12 Q. All right. Let's move on to Paragraph 55.
`13 And in this paragraph you had a test
`14 conducted to further experiment using 1500 grit
`15 sandpaper for five minutes, and then 320 grit
`16 sandpaper for five minutes.
`17 Is that an accurate description?
`18 A. Yes. However, it does not say five minutes
`19 for the 320 grit paper -- is not my deposition.
`20 Q. Okay. And what I'm trying to establish here
`21 is: Was this experiment with the 1500 grit, the
`22 320 grit sandpaper, applied on the same head lamp or
`23 two different head lamps?
`24 MR. ROBINSON: Objection; vague.
`
` 1 BY MR. ENGEL:
` 2 Q. Do you understand the question, sir?
` 3 A. No, I do not understand your question.
` 4 Q. Okay. There's a video of an experiment being
` 5 performed on 1500 grit sandpaper, and then there's a
` 6 picture on Page 22.
` 7 Is that correct?
` 8 A. Yes.
` 9 Q. There's a second video of 320 grit sandpaper
`10 being used to sand the lens. And there's a picture on
`11 Page 22 of that as well.
`12 Do you see that?
`13 A. Yes.
`14 Q. Okay. What I'm trying to establish is: Was
`15 the same headlamp used for both experiments?
`16 A. So you want to know whether or not the
`17 picture that has the 1500 grit paper, and then the
`18 lamp down below it, was it exactly the same physical
`19 lamp?
`20 Q. That's the first question I want to know,
`21 whether -- is the -- whether the lamp used -- the
`22 1500 grit sandpaper was then used with the 320 grit
`23 sandpaper?
`24 A. Quite frankly, I do not know that answer in
`
` 1 terms of whether or not it was exactly the same lamp,
` 2 but it doesn't look that -- like it was the same lamp,
` 3 given the -- where the edge of the housing is.
` 4 Q. But you don't know as you sit here today?
` 5 MR. ROBINSON: Objection; asked and answered.
` 6 MR. ENGEL: If you would just object to the
` 7 form, Doug, I would appreciate it. It would make this
` 8 go along a lot faster.
` 9 MR. ROBINSON: Okay.
`10 BY MR. ENGEL:
`11 Q. Mr. Bell, did you -- have you watched the
`12 videos that are referenced in this declaration
`13 recently?
`14 A. Not recently.
`15 Q. Okay. On the 1500 grit experiment you'll
`16 note that the lamp in that video was not being braced
`17 against any type of jig.
`18 A. Do you want to restate your question, please?
`19 Q. Sure.
`20 Do you recall the video that was used with
`21 the 1500 grit sandpaper?
`22 A. I have seen the video that was the 1500 grit
`23 sandpaper, yes.
`24 Q. And that's a gentleman manually applying 1500
`
`Page 18
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`Page 20
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` 1 grit sandpaper to a lamp; correct?
` 2 A. Yes.
` 3 Q. Do you know who that gentleman is?
` 4 A. No. I don't know who that gentleman is.
` 5 Q. Do you know what amount of pressure he's
` 6 applying manually to the 1500 grit sandpaper as he
` 7 sands the lens?
` 8 A. No, I don't know what kind of pressure he's
` 9 using.
`10 Q. Now, in my viewing of the video, the
`11 gentleman is holding the lamp with his left hand
`12 underneath and standing with this right hand.
`13 Do you have that understanding?
`14 A. It's a foggy understanding, because it has
`15 been a while since I've seen the video.
`16 Q. Okay. Well, let's assume that's how it's
`17 being done. Wouldn't the person doing the sanding
`18 have to apply pressure, upwards pressure with their
`19 left hand and downward pressure with their right hand
`20 to create enough friction to try and stay on the lens?
`21 A. Yes.
`22 Q. Do you know how much upward or downward
`23 pressure that gentleman was applying?
`24 A. No, I don't.
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`LKQ CORPORATION v.
`CLEARLAMP, LLC
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`Page 21
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`HARVEY BELL
`November 12, 2013
`Page 23
`
` 1 Q. Okay. And in the Kuta reference, the reason
` 2 that you were doing this experiment -- let's just call
` 3 it Exhibit 1002.
` 4 Do you have Exhibit 1002 in front of you,
` 5 Mr. Bell?
` 6 A. I can get it there. Let me bring it up.
` 7 Okay. I'm looking at it.
` 8 Q. Sure.
` 9 And I'll focus your attention to column 25,
`10 because I think that's one of the -- or excuse me --
`11 Paragraph 25 on the page that has a "2" at the top of
`12 it.
`13 A. Okay. I got paragraph -- preferably the
`14 first -- yeah.
`15 Q. Okay. So -- and in your declaration, as the
`16 background for performing this experiment, you refer
`17 to the -- this paragraph, and I believe what you
`18 focused in on was the fourth sentence down, it says:
`19 "The third abrasion step uses
`20 an ultra fine (1500 grit)
`21 manual surfacing material to
`22 get into corners missed by the
`23 prior steps."
`24 Do you see that?
`
` 1 A. Yes.
` 2 Q. Is that the reason that you had this
` 3 experiment with 1500 grit sandpaper performed?
` 4 A. Yeah.
` 5 MR. ROBINSON: Objection; form.
` 6 BY MR. ENGEL:
` 7 Q. Your answer was yes, sir?
` 8 A. Yes. It -- that's why we're interested in
` 9 1500 grit sandpaper.
`10 Q. Okay. You will notice that the second
`11 sentence says -- of that same passage says:
`12 "This step takes about five
`13 minutes, and is used mostly in
`14 corners 14, which are blended
`15 into the entire surface 12 of
`16 the lens type."
`17 Do you see that?
`18 A. Yes, I see it.
`19 Q. And in the 1500 grit experiment that's in
`20 Paragraph 55, it appears to me that the gentleman
`21 attempting to sand the lens is kind of generally going
`22 over the whole lens, but focusing most of his effort
`23 in the middle of the lens and not really on the -- you
`24 know, what are called the "limited access corner."
`
` 1 Do you have that understanding?
` 2 A. Well, you went all over the whole portion of
` 3 the plant.
` 4 Q. Do you know why any --
` 5 A. You could look at the results.
` 6 Q. Understood.
` 7 But do you know why he did not focus on the
` 8 corners of the lens?
` 9 A. Well, I think it's -- it's very clear what
`10 was established with the experiment is that 1500 grit
`11 sandpaper or as with the 1200, you cannot get the
`12 clear coat off the lamp, whether it's in the corners
`13 or in the middle of the lamp.
`14 Q. Okay. But in the Kuta reference, the 1500
`15 grit sandpaper is the third step that's applied to the
`16 lens; right?
`17 A. Right.
`18 Q. So that's actually a first step of using 320
`19 grit sandpaper; correct?
`20 A. That's correct.
`21 Q. And then there's a second step of using 600
`22 grit sandpaper; correct?
`23 A. That's correct.
`24 Q. Okay. Do you know if the lamp in the
`
`Page 22
`
`Page 24
`
` 1 experiment in Paragraph 55 with the 1500 grit
` 2 sandpaper was used, had the lamp been ground down with
` 3 that first step using 320 grip sandpaper?
` 4 A. No. That's not the purpose of the experiment
` 5 test, because as laid out here, it talks about the --
` 6 you can't get to the corners because they're
` 7 restricted.
` 8 It's why the lamp has to come off the vehicle
` 9 so you can't get to the corners. So it wouldn't have
`10 made any sense to test it -- do the 320 -- the 600,
`11 because those grind -- orbital grinders can't get the
`12 limited access corners.
`13 I mean -- so that's the whole purpose, is to
`14 demonstrate that the clear coat can't come off with
`15 this technique; right?
`16 Q. I'm really not sure why you have this
`17 experiment conducted, sir. So I am just trying to --
`18 A. Well, it --
`19 Q. I am just trying to delve into that.
`20 A. The reason -- the reason you -- you do
`21 testing is because this sort of -- you know, in God we
`22 trust, all others bring data.
`23 Q. Okay. But for this experiment, in
`24 Paragraph 55, the 1500 grit experiment, that lens was
`
`Min-U-Script®
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`Barkley Court Reporters
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`(6) Pages 21 - 24
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`006
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`

`
`LKQ CORPORATION v.
`CLEARLAMP, LLC
`
`Page 25
`
`HARVEY BELL
`November 12, 2013
`Page 27
`
` 1 not first sanded using 320 grit sandpaper.
` 2 Is that correct?
` 3 A. That's correct. It would not be
` 4 representative of what we're trying -- the fact of the
` 5 corners.
` 6 Q. Okay. So you could have had an experiment
` 7 conducted where the lamp was sanded first with 320
` 8 grit sandpaper in the car, and then 600 grit sandpaper
` 9 in the car; correct?
`10 A. What?
`11 Q. Well, you appear to be trying to disprove
`12 what is listed in Kuta, but you did not perform the
`13 experiment in Kuta.
`14 MR. ROBINSON: Objection.
`15 THE WITNESS: No. The reason it -- in Kuta,
`16 it's pretty clear that they recognize that 320 and 600
`17 grit paper on orbital sanders cannot get into
`18 restricted access areas.
`19 One -- you know, because you've got fenders
`20 and bezels that are bright and could get damaged by
`21 orbital sanders where it's running 320, and running
`22 600 grit paper.
`23 So they try to take that off with 1500 grit,
`24 and that doesn't work.
`
` 1 that Paragraph 23 earlier included, it's on the
` 2 opposite column of what you were looking at.
` 3 A. Okay. I got to go back to Kuta here.
` 4 Q. And for the record, this is Exhibit 1002.
` 5 A. Kuta, Paragraph 22.
` 6 "The above description
` 7