In The Matter Of:
`
`(cid:3)(cid:15)(cid:7)(cid:20)(cid:11)(cid:5)(cid:3)(cid:16)(cid:561)(cid:7)(cid:26)(cid:18)(cid:20)(cid:7)(cid:21)(cid:21)(cid:561)(cid:5)(cid:17)(cid:15)(cid:18)(cid:3)(cid:16)(cid:27)(cid:496)(cid:561)(cid:142)(cid:157)(cid:561)(cid:138)(cid:149)(cid:495)(cid:561)
`(cid:159)(cid:495)
`(cid:561)(cid:15)(cid:7)(cid:22)(cid:3)(cid:21)(cid:7)(cid:3)(cid:20)(cid:5)(cid:10)(cid:561)(cid:21)(cid:27)(cid:21)(cid:22)(cid:7)(cid:15)(cid:21)(cid:496)(cid:561)(cid:14)(cid:14)(cid:5)
`
`(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)
`
`(cid:9)(cid:3)(cid:20)(cid:27)(cid:561)(cid:14)(cid:11)(cid:3)(cid:17)(cid:561)(cid:556)(cid:561)(cid:24)(cid:152)(cid:149)(cid:495)(cid:561)(cid:343)
`(cid:21)(cid:142)(cid:153)(cid:157)(cid:142)(cid:150)(cid:139)(cid:142)(cid:155)(cid:561)(cid:344)(cid:348)(cid:496)(cid:561)(cid:344)(cid:342)(cid:343)(cid:346)
`
`(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)(cid:527)
`(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)(cid:561)
`
`(cid:561) (cid:561)
`
`AMERICAN EXPRESS V. METASEARCH
`CBM2014-00001 EXHIBIT 2043 - 1
`
`

`

`Page 1
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` ---------------
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` ----------------
`
`AMERICAN EXPRESS COMPANY, AMERICAN EXPRESS TRAVEL
`RELATED SERVICES COMPANY, INC., EXPEDIA, INC.;
`HOTELS.COM LP, HOTELS.COM GP, LLC, HOTWIRE, INC.,
`ORBITZ WORLDWIDE, INC., PRICELINE.COM INC.,
`TRAVELOCITY.COM LP, and YAHOO! INC.
` Petitioners
`
` v.
`
` METASEARCH SYSTEMS, LLC.
` Patent Owner
`
` -----------------
`
` Case No. CB2014-00001
` Patent Number 8,326,924 B1
`
` DEPOSITION OF GARY LIAO
`
` Taken on Behalf of Patent Owner
`
` Friday, September 26, 2014
`
` * * *
`
`SF-008547
`
`AMERICAN EXPRESS V. METASEARCH
`CBM2014-00001 EXHIBIT 2043 - 2
`
`

`

`Page 2
`
`Page 4
`
` BE IT REMEMBERED That the deposition of GARY
`LIAO was taken before Heather Ashton, RPR, CSR, on
`Friday, September 26, 2014, commencing at the hour of
`11:25 a.m., the proceedings being reported in the law
`offices of Klarquist Sparkman, LLP, One World Trade
`Center, 121 SW Salmon Street, Suite 1600, Portland,
`Oregon.
` * * *
` APPEARANCES
`KLARQUIST SPARKMAN, LLP
` By Ms. Kristen P. Lantz Reichenbach, Ph.D.
` By Mr. John D. Vandenberg
` One World Trade Center
` 121 SW Salmon Street, Suite 1600
` Portland, Oregon 97204
` (503) 595-5300
` kristen.reichenbach@klarquist.com
` john.vandenberg@klarquist.com
` Appearing on behalf of the Petitioners
`
`ROBINS, KAPLAN, MILLER & CIRESI, LLP
` By Mr. Ryan M. Schultz
` 2800 LaSalle Plaza
` 800 LaSalle Avenue
` Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402-2015
` (612) 349-8500
` rmschultz@rkmc.com
` Appearing on behalf of the Patent Owner
`
` GARY LIAO
` having first been sworn to tell the truth by the
` reporter, testified under oath as follows:
`
` EXAMINATION
` BY MR. SCHULTZ:
`Q Can you state your name for the record.
`A Gary Liao.
`Q And can you provide your address.
`A 33709 Tarbell Road, Scappoose, Oregon.
`Q And Liao?
`A Liao, yes.
`Q I will do my best to pronounce it correctly. I was
` saying Liao all the time, so it will take me a little
` bit to get over that, but I will do what I can.
` Mr. Liao, have you ever been deposed before?
`A As a fact witness, yes.
`Q So you've never been deposed as an expert witness?
`A No.
`Q How long ago was the deposition that you were a fact
` witness in?
`A It was about nine or ten years ago.
`Q I'm going to go over just a few basics ground rules
` to hopefully speed this process up so we can get done
` in a timely and efficient manner. As you can see,
`
`Page 3
`
`Page 5
`
` INDEX
`EXAMINATION BY: PAGE NO.
`Examination by Mr. Schultz 4
`Examination by Ms. Reichenbach 76
` * * *
`
` EXHIBITS
`EXHIBIT NO. ITEM PAGE NO.
`Exhibit 2042 Petition Filed October 1, 7
` 2013, Filed Electronically
` PER 37 C.F.R. 42.6(B)(1)
` (Exhibit attached hereto.)
`
` the court reporter is typing down everything that we
` say to create a transcript that will be used later
` on. In light of that, it's important to keep in
` mind, as great and wonderful as she is, she can only
` type down what one of us is saying at any one time.
` So it is important that we wait for each other to
` respond. So I would ask that you wait for myself to
` finish the question, and I will do my best to wait
` until you are done answering before I ask my next
` question. Okay?
`A (Witness nodding.)
`Q Is that understood?
`A Yes.
`Q That leads me right into my next rule. She has to
` type down things that you say. So if you nod your
` head or say "uh-huh" or "huh-uh," it won't come out
` clean in the transcript of what was happening, if you
` were saying yes or no. So I would ask, to the extent
` that the answer to the question is yes or no,
` affirmatively use the words "yes" or "no." Okay?
`A Okay.
`Q We will take some breaks throughout the deposition.
` I tend to take them about every hour. I may push
` that a little bit in order to try to get this
` deposition wrapped up in a timely fashion, but if at
`
`2 (Pages 2 to 5)
`AMERICAN EXPRESS V. METASEARCH
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`

`

`Page 6
`
`Page 8
`
`1 any point in time you need a break, please just let
`2 me know and we will take a break at that time. The
`3 only thing that I ask is, if there is a question
`4 pending, that you answer the question pending, and
`5 then we will take a break after that. Okay?
`6 A Okay.
`7 Q Is there any reason that you cannot testify
`8 truthfully today?
`9 A No.
`10 Q Now, you have provided two declarations in the matter
`11 related to U.S. Patent 8,326,924. Do you recall
`12 that?
`13 A Yes.
`14 Q And if I refer to that patent as the '924 patent,
`15 you'll understand what I'm saying?
`16 A Yes.
`17 Q And I'm going to show you some documents as we go
`18 through here, but I'm going to ask you just a few
`19 questions before I do that.
`20 You provide consulting services right now,
`21 correct?
`22 A Yes.
`23 Q Have you provided, outside of your two declarations
`24 in this matter, any consulting services for any of
`25 the petitioners in this matter?
`
`1 sure the entire parentage. That's why I'm uncertain.
`2 Q So you may have provided some litigation consulting
`3 services for a subsidiary of American Express?
`4 A Yes.
`5 Q And when would that have been?
`6 A Several years ago.
`7 Q More than five?
`8 A I'm not certain, but probably less than five.
`9 Q And have you provided any litigation consulting for
`10 the Klarquist law firm before, outside of this
`11 matter?
`12 A Yeah, I've provided litigation support.
`13 Q How many times?
`14 A I don't have an exact count. I think if I provided a
`15 CV, I could get you the exact number.
`16 Q Do you think it's more than ten?
`17 A No, I don't think it's more than ten.
`18 Q You can set that aside. I'm going to hand you what
`19 has already been marked as Exhibit 1009, which is, I
`20 believe, your first declaration in these proceedings;
`21 is that correct?
`22 A Yeah, this looks like the first declaration.
`23 Q In this declaration you provide a few paragraphs on
`24 your background and experiences.
`25 A Yes.
`
`Page 7
`
`Page 9
`
`1 A I don't understand. Can you repeat that?
`2 Q Sure. You understand that there are petitioners in
`3 this matter who have filed a petition for a Covered
`4 Business Method Review of the '924 patent, correct?
`5 A Yes.
`6 Q And do you know what those entities are? Let me show
`7 you a document. Maybe that will help give some
`8 context. We will mark this as Exhibit 2042.
`9 (Exhibit No. 2042 was marked.)
`10 Q BY MR. SCHULTZ: If you can turn to page 1 of Exhibit
`11 2042. I think you flipped past it. There you go.
`12 A Oh.
`13 Q You see under the title "Real Party-In-Interest"
`14 there's a list of a variety of entities: American
`15 Express Company, et cetera. My question is, have you
`16 provided any consulting services for any of those
`17 entities outside of your work in this matter?
`18 A So I don't believe I provide non-litigation
`19 consulting for any of these petitioners. I may have
`20 provided some litigation consulting for subsidiaries
`21 of one of these, but I'm not sure.
`22 Q And the litigation consulting for one of the
`23 subsidiaries that you're referencing, what is the
`24 parent entity that you're thinking of?
`25 A It may have been American Express. I don't know for
`
`1 Q I want to focus a little bit on some of your
`2 experiences. I understand you have a Bachelor of
`3 Science in Electrical Engineering; is that correct?
`4 A That's correct.
`5 Q And that's from the University of California?
`6 A San Diego, yes.
`7 Q And do you have a master's degree in electrical
`8 engineering?
`9 A No. I have a master's in business administration.
`10 Q Do you have any post undergraduate education in the
`11 field of electrical engineering?
`12 A No.
`13 Q Computer science?
`14 A No.
`15 Q I want to focus the next set of questions really on
`16 your experiences up through the year 2000. Okay?
`17 And I know it may be a little difficult to parse that
`18 out in your mind, but I'm going to try to focus on
`19 that, not what you're doing currently. Okay?
`20 A Okay.
`21 Q Prior to 2000, did you have any experiences
`22 professionally with metasearch engines?
`23 A Prior to 2000, I don't believe I had any professional
`24 experience with metasearch engines.
`25 Q And would it be fair to say that prior to 2000, then,
`
`3 (Pages 6 to 9)
`AMERICAN EXPRESS V. METASEARCH
`CBM2014-00001 EXHIBIT 2043 - 4
`
`

`

`Page 10
`
`Page 12
`
`1 you didn't have any experience in designing
`2 metasearch engines?
`3 A Prior to 2000, that's right.
`4 Q And would it be fair to say that prior to 2000 you
`5 didn't have any experience in the implementation of a
`6 metasearch engine?
`7 A Prior to 2000, I had not implemented a metasearch
`8 engine.
`9 Q And prior to 2000, you did not have any experience in
`10 the selection of hardware to be used to implement a
`11 metasearch engine, correct?
`12 A Prior to 2000, I would not have had any
`13 decision-making for hardware for a metasearch engine.
`14 Q I'm not so much focused on the decision-making. I'm
`15 just more did you have -- You didn't have any
`16 experiences in the selection process of hardware to
`17 be utilized for a metasearch engine prior to 2000?
`18 A Yeah, that would be correct as well.
`19 Q Now, prior to 2000, you did have experience with
`20 e-commerce sites?
`21 A That's correct. I had experience with e-commerce
`22 sites prior to 2000.
`23 Q And you list a few Web sites here in your first
`24 declaration, in paragraph 3 here I would assume --
`25 well, you can tell me. It recites like clique.com
`
`1 accepting customer requirements, doing design,
`2 implementation, test, deploy. And then after
`3 deploying, maintenance if that was necessary.
`4 Q And were you involved in all of those aspects of the
`5 project?
`6 A Yes.
`7 Q And so you were involved with making decisions
`8 related to the implementation of those e-commerce
`9 sites?
`10 A Yes.
`11 Q And you were involved in the decision-making process
`12 related to how those sites process customer orders?
`13 A Yes, but not for all of these.
`14 Q For some of them?
`15 A For some of them, that's right.
`16 Q Which ones were you involved on the processing side?
`17 A On the ones listed here, the clique.com and
`18 animalfairboutique.com.
`19 Q Now, prior to 2000, did you have any experience with
`20 search engines?
`21 A So there's two aspects to search engines. One is the
`22 actual search engines, and the other ones are the Web
`23 sites that are searched by search engines. Of course
`24 whenever you build e-commerce Web sites, you always
`25 have to be considerate of building them in a way that
`
`Page 11
`
`Page 13
`
`1 and gear.com. Would you consider those e-commerce
`2 sites?
`3 A Yes, those were e-commerce sites.
`4 Q And prior to 2000, you had experience, then, in
`5 designing e-commerce Web sites?
`6 A That's correct.
`7 Q And some of those Web sites are the ones that are
`8 listed in your declaration?
`9 A Correct.
`10 Q Through 1999 when you were working on these
`11 e-commerce Web sites, were you working as a
`12 consultant, or were you working for a particular
`13 company or corporation?
`14 A I was working for a consulting company that
`15 implemented these. So I was a consultant on these.
`16 Q What was the consultant company?
`17 A These were for Step Technology.
`18 Q When did you work for AMD?
`19 A I worked for AMD from 1988 to 2000. Oh, no. 1988 to
`20 1990.
`21 Q And when you were at AMD, was that on hardware --
`22 A It was both. I did both hardware and software.
`23 Q What type of work were you doing related to these
`24 e-commerce sites prior to 2000?
`25 A Oh, these would have been full engagements of
`
`1 they are searchable by search engines. So in that
`2 sense the answer is yes. But prior to 2000, I never
`3 worked on search engines on the search engine side.
`4 Q Just so that I've got it clear in my mind, so prior
`5 to 2000, you did not work on search engines on the
`6 search engine side?
`7 A That's correct. That's what I said, yes.
`8 Q So prior to 2000, you didn't have any experience in
`9 designing search engines either?
`10 A Right. Prior to 2000, I had not designed a search
`11 engine.
`12 Q And prior to 2000, you did not have any experience in
`13 implementing search engines, correct?
`14 A That's correct. Prior to 2000, I would not have
`15 implemented a search engine.
`16 Q Now, prior to 2000, you were aware of search engines,
`17 correct?
`18 A Yes, prior to 2000, I was aware of search engines.
`19 Q Search engines like Google, Yahoo!?
`20 A Correct. Yes.
`21 Q Thanks. And I think we covered this, but I just want
`22 to make sure that we did. The Web sites that are
`23 listed in your biography, or declaration of your work
`24 history related up to 2000, none of those Web sites
`25 are metasearch engines, right?
`
`4 (Pages 10 to 13)
`AMERICAN EXPRESS V. METASEARCH
`CBM2014-00001 EXHIBIT 2043 - 5
`
`

`

`Page 14
`
`Page 16
`
`1 A That's correct. None of these are metasearch
`2 engines.
`3 Q And none of those Web sites that are listed in your
`4 declaration are search engines, correct?
`5 A That's correct. None of these listed here are search
`6 engines.
`7 Q And I think you testified earlier those Web sites are
`8 more e-commerce sites, correct?
`9 A Correct.
`10 Q And none of the Web sites that you worked on prior to
`11 2000 had a combination of a search engine and an
`12 e-commerce site together, correct?
`13 A So none of the Web sites that are listed here that I
`14 worked on prior to 2000 were a combination of search
`15 engines and e-commerce.
`16 Q And likewise, none of the sites that you worked on
`17 and that are listed in your declaration were a
`18 combination of an e-commerce site and a metasearch
`19 engine, correct?
`20 A So none of these listed here would have been a
`21 combination of a metasearch engine and an e-commerce
`22 site.
`23 Q Prior to 2000, were you aware of any metasearch
`24 engines?
`25 A Around that time. And I can't recall exactly if it
`
`1 Q BY MR. SCHULTZ: You can answer.
`2 A So that wouldn't be my position to do that, and so
`3 no, I didn't do that. But it -- That was not my
`4 role.
`5 Q And likewise, you never recommended or consulted that
`6 they combine their e-commerce site with a metasearch
`7 engine, correct?
`8 MS. REICHENBACH: Objection. Scope.
`9 THE WITNESS: So again, that wouldn't even be
`10 within the scope of my, you know, engagement with
`11 them to do that sort of thing. But no, I wouldn't
`12 have done that either.
`13 Q BY MR. SCHULTZ: And they never asked you to combine
`14 their e-commerce site with a search engine, correct?
`15 MS. REICHENBACH: Objection. Scope.
`16 THE WITNESS: So no customer that I recall asked
`17 me to combine their e-commerce site with a search
`18 engine.
`19 Q BY MR. SCHULTZ: And none of the customers asked you
`20 to combine their e-commerce site with a metasearch
`21 engine, correct?
`22 MS. REICHENBACH: Objection. Scope and form.
`23 THE WITNESS: That seemed like the same question
`24 that I just answered, so I'm not sure why that's
`25 different than what I just -- how I just responded.
`
`Page 15
`
`Page 17
`
`1 was before 2000 or after 2000, but there were price
`2 comparison shopping sites, those sorts of things, and
`3 I was aware of those types of things. I can't recall
`4 exactly what they are now, but --
`5 Q You remembered --
`6 A I remembered those.
`7 Q I apologize. Please finish.
`8 A But I was aware of those.
`9 Q What were the sites that you're thinking of?
`10 A I can't recall by name. I would have to go back and
`11 look at a wayback engine or something like that.
`12 Q So when you were designing the Web sites that you
`13 have identified in your declaration, you never
`14 thought to combine those sites with the search
`15 engine, correct?
`16 A So at this time, I was reactive as a consultant to
`17 develop certain Web sites. And so it wouldn't be my
`18 decision-making process to do that sort of thing. I
`19 was engaged with clients to implement their business
`20 model in their stores.
`21 Q Understood. But you never went to those clients and
`22 said, "You know what you really need to do is take
`23 your e-commerce site and add a search engine,"
`24 correct?
`25 MS. REICHENBACH: Objection. Scope.
`
`1 Q BY MR. SCHULTZ: Sure. The first question was
`2 combining of an e-commerce site with a search engine.
`3 Now the question that I'm asking you is they never
`4 asked you to combine their e-commerce site with a
`5 metasearch engine?
`6 A I thought the previous question was actually
`7 combining it with a metasearch engine, and so I
`8 thought I responded to that, but I will respond to
`9 both of them. They didn't ask me to combine them
`10 with either a search engine or a metasearch engine.
`11 Q Prior to 2000, did you have any experience in
`12 designing a constraint-based search system?
`13 A Prior to 2000, I had not designed a constraint-based
`14 search system.
`15 Q After 2000, had you been involved in designing a
`16 constraint-based search system?
`17 A So after 2000, I had worked on something very similar
`18 for a financial services company, where we took a
`19 user input with stock quotes, performed real-time
`20 queries to an external archive. I believe it was
`21 Yahoo! Finance. And constraints are very similar to
`22 filters with name value pairs, and we annotated --
`23 basically wrote wrappers with metadata to pull
`24 different aspects of stock quotes from an external
`25 archive. I don't recall exactly all of them, but
`
`5 (Pages 14 to 17)
`AMERICAN EXPRESS V. METASEARCH
`CBM2014-00001 EXHIBIT 2043 - 6
`
`

`

`Page 18
`
`Page 20
`
`1 price, volume, those sorts of things. That's very
`2 similar to doing a constraint-based knowledge system,
`3 although for a single external archive.
`4 Q So that system that you were just describing only had
`5 a single external archive?
`6 A So it was data driven. It's a data-driven query
`7 application. And if the data pointed to multiple
`8 external archives, it would have been fine. And I
`9 believe it would have handled that sort of thing. It
`10 just so happened that all the data that the client
`11 needed was in a single archive. But if they wanted
`12 to extend it to, say, Reuters or Morningstar or
`13 something else that wasn't in Yahoo! Finance, I
`14 believe it would have handled that.
`15 Q So I'm not so much asking about the capabilities,
`16 could it do it, I'm more asking what it actually did.
`17 In actual working it only went to a single external
`18 archive, correct?
`19 A I believe it only went to a single archive at one
`20 time. I believe it may have changed during the
`21 course of its use, going from one financial archive
`22 to another financial archive.
`23 Q But you weren't involved when that change happened?
`24 A My recollection is foggy. I would have been involved
`25 in that. I just don't recall exactly if we made that
`
`1 this paragraph, just paraphrasing, you state that the
`2 chart below you worked on, and it describes the
`3 references. It's from the perspective of one of
`4 ordinary skill in the art in 1999 to 2001. Do you
`5 see that?
`6 A Yes, I see that.
`7 Q All right. What is the definition of a person of
`8 ordinary skill in the art in 1999 to 2001 that you
`9 were applying when providing this opinion in Exhibit
`10 1009?
`11 A If I recall, I believe I would have applied a person
`12 of ordinary skill in the art as someone who had Web
`13 technology, knowledge of search engines, knowledge of
`14 Internet technology, software development, that sort
`15 of thing, and perhaps knowledge of Mamma.com and
`16 Knowledge Broker.
`17 Q So in your application of ordinary skill in the art,
`18 they would have knowledge of Mamma.com?
`19 A Of the types of technologies involved in Mamma.com,
`20 which would be metasearch engines. Basically,
`21 Internet.
`22 Q Are you done answering? If you want more time,
`23 that's fine. I just don't want to cut you off.
`24 A I just want to reread this for a second here.
`25 Q Please take your time.
`
`Page 19
`
`Page 21
`
`1 switch.
`2 Q What time frame are we talking about?
`3 A This would have been around 2006, 2005, 2007,
`4 something like that.
`5 Q If you can go back to your declaration, Exhibit 1009,
`6 and turn to paragraph 20.
`7 A I'm sorry?
`8 Q Paragraph 20. I believe it's on page 14.
`9 MS. REICHENBACH: Objection. Scope. Are you
`10 going to continue to ask questions on this
`11 declaration, Exhibit 1009?
`12 MR. SCHULTZ: Yeah.
`13 MS. REICHENBACH: Because we would like to have
`14 a standing objection to scope, or else I can object
`15 each time. It's up to you.
`16 MR. SCHULTZ: A standing objection is fine.
`17 MS. REICHENBACH: Okay. So we have a standing
`18 objection on the grounds of scope to questions
`19 related to Exhibit 1009 other than the paragraphs on
`20 the background information 1 through 3 that we had
`21 just previously been discussing.
`22 THE WITNESS: What paragraph?
`23 Q BY MR. SCHULTZ: Paragraph 20.
`24 A Twenty.
`25 Q It starts at page 14 and goes over to page 15. In
`
`1 A So I think that's right. They would have -- The
`2 person of ordinary skill in the art in 1999-2001
`3 would have knowledge of Web, Web technologies, Web
`4 search engines and the technologies that were
`5 involved in Mamma.com and Knowledge Broker.
`6 Q And what would the technologies be in Mamma.com and
`7 Knowledge Broker that you're referring to?
`8 A Mamma.com and Knowledge Broker were both metasearch
`9 engines, and they applied in different ways, but
`10 basically metasearch engines, databases querying,
`11 that sort of thing.
`12 Q So a person of ordinary skill in the art, as you
`13 applied it, would have had knowledge of a metasearch
`14 engine?
`15 A I believe a person of ordinary skill in the art would
`16 have had knowledge of the technologies involved in
`17 metasearch engines. Whether they knew -- I'm not so
`18 certain whether they would actually know metasearch
`19 engines or not.
`20 Q When you say technologies involved in metasearch
`21 engines, what are you referring to?
`22 A So when I'm considering the definition of metasearch
`23 engine and considering that it's a device that
`24 performs metasearching -- metasearching is just, if I
`25 understand correctly -- and I don't have the exact
`
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`1 construction in front of me, but I recall it's from a
`2 user sending one or more queries to plural hosts, and
`3 then combining those results and sending them back to
`4 a user. Those types of things is what I'm talking
`5 about a person of ordinary skill in the art would
`6 know.
`7 Q What's the date of that declaration?
`8 A I don't know.
`9 Q Check the last page.
`10 A 26th of September.
`11 Q Now, the definition that you were saying of
`12 metasearching, or the construction you were trying to
`13 refer to, that was the construction that was adopted
`14 by the PTAB, correct?
`15 A Yes, I think that's -- I don't know what PTAB is,
`16 but --
`17 Q The patent office.
`18 A Okay.
`19 Q Now, when you signed that declaration back in
`20 September of 2013, the patent office had not provided
`21 what the construction of metasearching was, correct?
`22 A That's correct. Well, I don't know, but I would
`23 believe you if you told me that, so --
`24 Q So what I'm trying to understand is when you were
`25 saying one of ordinary skill in the art when you
`
`1 A So my sense is that person of ordinary skill in the
`2 art would have knowledge about certain technologies,
`3 whether it was acquired through academics or
`4 experience. I believe -- I wouldn't have applied a
`5 strict academic requirement to a person of ordinary
`6 skill, just the knowledge of that skill.
`7 Q And I want to make sure I've got the complete list of
`8 the knowledge of technologies that you were
`9 considering as what one of ordinary skill in the art
`10 in 1999 to 2001 would have. It would be knowledge of
`11 search engines, metasearch engines, the Web, and the
`12 Internet. Is there anything else?
`13 MS. REICHENBACH: Objection. Form.
`14 THE WITNESS: I'm not so certain I would have
`15 included metasearch in that list. I believe I would
`16 have included at this time like Web, Web
`17 technologies, Internet technologies, Web search
`18 engines.
`19 Q BY MR. SCHULTZ: Anything else?
`20 A I would have included general software development
`21 skills as well.
`22 Q Now, you say the ordinary person of skill in the art
`23 that you were applying in this declaration was from
`24 1999 to 2001, correct?
`25 A (Nodding head.)
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`1 executed this declaration in September of 2013
`2 wouldn't have knowledge of the involvement or
`3 technologies related to metasearch and metasearch
`4 engines, what construction of metasearch were you
`5 using at that time when you executed this
`6 declaration?
`7 A And so my sense -- So that's a different question. I
`8 was trying to answer previously, you know, what types
`9 of things a person of ordinary skill in the art would
`10 have. And so in answering that question, I
`11 considered the PTAB definition. Of course, at this
`12 time I wouldn't have known the definition, but I
`13 believe it would have been the same; those were the
`14 types of things a person of ordinary skill in the art
`15 would know.
`16 Q And so they would know how the metasearch engine
`17 operates and functions?
`18 MS. REICHENBACH: Objection. Form.
`19 THE WITNESS: I believe they would understand
`20 the technologies involved in that type of
`21 application, yes.
`22 Q BY MR. SCHULTZ: Would this person of ordinary skill
`23 in the art that you are applying in September of 2013
`24 when you executed this declaration have some sort of
`25 educational background?
`
`1 Q Is that a yes? You're nodding your head, but I need
`2 you to say "yes" for the transcript.
`3 A Yes. Yes.
`4 Q Thanks. Why is the range from 1999 to 2001?
`5 A I believe it's because that is the range of the
`6 critical date of the patent filing.
`7 Q Would it be helpful if you had the patent in front of
`8 you? I'm going to hand you what has previously been
`9 marked as Exhibit 1001, which is the '924 patent.
`10 And you'll see on the face of the patent -- Are you
`11 familiar with the patent?
`12 A Yes.
`13 Q On the face of the patent, where it talks about
`14 related U.S. application data, if you go all the way
`15 into the second column it says that there was an
`16 application that was filed on February 22nd, 2000
`17 that was issued as Patent 6,789,0713 [sic]?
`18 A Where are you?
`19 Q Right here (indicating).
`20 MS. REICHENBACH: I believe you said the number
`21 incorrectly.
`22 MR. SCHULTZ: 6,789,073. Thank you.
`23 THE WITNESS: Okay. I see that.
`24 Q BY MR. SCHULTZ: Do you understand that to be the
`25 earliest filing dated for the '924 patent?
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`1 MS. REICHENBACH: Objection. Foundation.
`2 THE WITNESS: I don't understand what you
`3 exactly said, but I'll try to answer it in a
`4 different way. In my declaration I refer to two
`5 things. One is, as I call it, the 2001 application,
`6 and then subsequently this '924. So I consider it
`7 two things.
`8 Q BY MR. SCHULTZ: So you didn't consider the
`9 application that resulted in the '073 patent that was
`10 filed in February of 2000?
`11 A So I'm confused a little bit about the number. I
`12 don't know if what I considered the 2001 application
`13 is the same thing as this right now.
`14 Q Let me ask you this: Would your definition of one
`15 with ordinary skill in the art change at