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`Exhibit 8
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`10/31/2019
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`Network-1 Technologies, v. Google LLC and Youtube LLC
`Confidential
`
`Sean Ward
`
`Page 1
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` UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
` SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
`
`NETWORK-1 TECHNOLOGIES, INC., )
` )
` Plaintiff, )
` )
` v. ) 14 Civ. 2396 (PGG)
` )
` ) 14 Civ. 9558 (PGG)
`GOOGLE, LLC and YOUTUBE, LLC, )
` )
` Defendants. )
`_________________________________)
`
` **CONFIDENTIAL**
`
` VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
` SEAN WARD
` (Third-party witness)
`
` Thursday, October 31, 2019 at 09:10 a.m.
` The International Dispute Resolution Centre
` 70 Fleet Street
` London, EC4Y 1EU, United Kingdom
`
`Stenographically reported by: LEAH M. WILLERSDORF
`(ACR, MBIVR, QRR2 International Participating
`Member NCRA)
`____________________________________________________
` DIGITAL EVIDENCE GROUP
` 1730 M Street, NW, Suite 812
` Washington, D.C. 20036
` (202) 232-0646
`
`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
`
`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2019
`
`202-232-0646
`
`
`
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`Page 42
`looking at every single fingerprint, it would be
`looking at the fingerprints that were within that
`small group. Additionally, now, of course, if you're
`only looking in a small group, there's a risk that
`you're missing a fingerprint.
` So in practice it would have to look into
`multiple buckets, but that was always a bounded search
`in terms of what neighborhood of buckets it would look
`into.
` Q. Just to clarify for the record, when was
`this bucketing scheme implemented with TRM?
` MR. LEDAHL: Object to form.
` THE WITNESS: So the early work towards
`that was done in July and then into August, and it
`launched with that in place, because, again, we only
`had a single server to run this off of. So we had
`to be efficient.
`BY MR. DANG:
` Q. And to clarify, did you mean August of
`2000?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Okay. And it launched with that in place
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`202-232-0646
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`Network-1 Technologies, v. Google LLC and Youtube LLC
`Confidential
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`Sean Ward
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`Page 43
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`in August of 2000?
` A. Yes.
` MR. LEDAHL: Object to form.
`BY MR. DANG:
` Q. Okay. And let's dive into a little more
`detail as to how this bucketing scheme worked.
`Were there different kinds of buckets in place in the
`scheme?
` A. Yes. So buckets were originally done off
`of three layers of the audio fingerprint.
`So, in fact, just jumping down to my code base one
`second --
` Q. Just to clarify for the record, what are
`you looking at on your computer?
` A. I'm looking at the source code archive of
`TRM-B, which was our commercial product from March
`of 2001; however, an important point is large
`attributes of that code base pre-date from early and
`mid 2000s.
` Q. Is there a particular file that you are
`looking at?
` A. Yes, I'm going into hash.cpp --
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
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`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2019
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`202-232-0646
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`Network-1 Technologies, v. Google LLC and Youtube LLC
`Confidential
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`Sean Ward
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`Page 44
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` Q. Okay.
` A. -- which references the hash functions
`itself, and the original date of creation of that was
`in 2000 by Isaac so it was actually in July and August
`of 2000 that that was originally created.
` Q. Okay.
` MR. DANG: It might actually just help,
`I have -- why don't I just go ahead and mark as
`Exhibit 2 this document so we can keep things
`consistent.
` (Ward Exhibit 2 marked for
` identification.)
` MR. DANG: Let the record reflect that
`I have handed the witness what's been marked as
`Exhibit 2.
`BY MR. DANG:
` Q. Does this document reflect that hash.cpp
`functioning?
` A. Yes, it's the b3sig/hash.cpp.
` Q. Okay.
` Let's get back, then, to how this
`bucketing scheme worked in August of 2000?
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
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`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2019
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`202-232-0646
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`Network-1 Technologies, v. Google LLC and Youtube LLC
`Confidential
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`Sean Ward
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`Page 94
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` A. Yes, it does.
` Q. It looks like there are three folders.
`Sorry, it looks like there is a larger folder called
`"b3-complete" here; is that right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And there are three sub-folders within it?
` A. Correct. So this is referencing an
`archive snapshot of our code base that was taken in
`March 16 of 2001.
` Q. Okay. Are those three sub-folders within
`this b3-complete folder, libtrmb-0.0.2 as one?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Another, b3sig-2.0.0 as another?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And the last one,
` A. Yes.
` Q. Could you walk me through generally what's
`in each of these folders?
` A. Sure. So libtrmb is the client-side code
`base --
` (Reporter clarification.)
` THE WITNESS: Libtrmb is the client-side
`
`-0.0.1?
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
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`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2019
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`202-232-0646
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`Page 95
`code base that would take an audio file and produce
`the feature vector of the acoustic fingerprint as well
`as, you know, could -- as the networking code, they
`could submit that to the server.
` The b3sig was the actual server itself
`that would store the reference databases,
`the fingerprints, the matching logic, et cetera.
`
`we had to create to deal with, frankly, very high
`query volumes coming in, so it let you run
`
`servers.
`BY MR. DANG:
` Q. Okay.
` A. It ultimately was also used to
`
` because you will remember one of
`the hash bucket levels is the paged bucket, which was
`loading a subset of the fingerprint database into
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`202-232-0646
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`Page 96
`memory, so ultimately when you dealt with very large
`fingerprint databases, you wanted to create, you know,
`a
`and ensure that all the queries
`
` and the
`ended up being a tool
`
`ultimately
`
` loaded a subset of
`
` tool put
`
`the fingerprint database.
` Q. And when was that
`into place?
` A. So this was as we were getting ready
`to begin scaling to very large databases.
`So, you know, it wasn't in place at the time of
`Free Amp because we were only dealing with about
`half a million fingerprints in that era. This was
`starting to scale to 5+ million fingerprint databases.
` Q. Okay. The hash.cpp code file that
`we discussed earlier --
` A. Yes.
` Q. -- is that the hash.cpp file that's
`located in the b3sig-2.0.0 sub-folder?
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`Network-1 Technologies, v. Google LLC and Youtube LLC
`Confidential
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`Sean Ward
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`Page 97
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` A. Yes, it is.
` Q. Okay. As we've discussed, were portions
`of that file in place during the August 2000
`implementation of Free Amp?
` A. Yes.
` MR. LEDAHL: Object to form.
`BY MR. DANG:
` Q. Okay.
` A. You will see in there that, you know,
`the header was created by Isaac back in 2000.
` Q. Okay. And is that the same file that you
`have been looking at on your computer today?
` A. Yes, it is. And it's the same as the
`exhibit file that you have provided --
` Q. I believe that's Exhibit 2?
` A. -- as Exhibit 2.
` Q. Okay.
` A. Or I believe Exhibit 2. I haven't read
`every line of it, but ...
` Q. Okay.
` MR. DANG: Why don't we take another
`five-minute break. I think I'm about done. I just
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
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`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2019
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`202-232-0646
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`Page 112
`were stuck in a rack there, so we changed to a new
`server at that point in time from the existing
`infrastructure that, for instance, the Free Amp
`service had been run upon in the past.
` Q. So just to be clear, when you say that
`the code was put online, you don't mean it was made
`available to the public in 2001?
` A. No. It was a snapshot of the information
`on that server from that time period.
` Q. I see. You have no code for any of these
`files that's dated any time earlier than March of
`2001, correct?
` MR. DANG: Object to the form.
` THE WITNESS: Unfortunately, no. I don't
`at present have access to any of that. When we put
`the new server on, I unfortunately did not migrate all
`of the stuff that had been on the old ones. We simply
`took the server out, which also unfortunately extends
`to my emails also only going back to March of that
`year.
`BY MR. LEDAHL:
` Q. March of?
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`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2019
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`202-232-0646
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`Page 113
` A. 2001. As well as basically the email
`archives of the whole company.
` Q. Now, we have looked at some emails from
`you that are dated earlier than March 2001. Do you
`have any understanding of where those come from?
` A. Yes. That came from Pat Breslin, who you
`will note had been using a personal email address,
`pbreslin@min.net, so he has personally some of the
`older emails, whereas the ones that had been on our
`relatable.com addresses, you know, I don't have in our
`archives prior to March of 2001.
` Q. Now --
` A. We changed those servers.
` Q. Okay. Now, we looked at -- Mr. Dang asked
`you a number of questions about one particular file
`from this code that was marked as Exhibit 2.
` A. Yes.
` Q. And I know you were looking at an online
`version --
` A. Correct.
` Q. -- on your computer as well, or a digital
`version, rather.
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`202-232-0646
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`Page 114
` Now, this file also is a snapshot from
`March of 2001, correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. And you don't have a version of this file
`from any date earlier than March of 2001?
` A. Unfortunately, no.
` Q. Okay. Am I correct that you can't tell
`me precisely which lines of code within Exhibit 2 are
`the same as they were at a time earlier than March of
`2001?
` A. Correct, other than the header, of course,
`which does date back to 2000 because it's got the date
`stamp in it.
` Q. Now, I think you described this code that
`we looked at in Exhibit 2 as part of the server code;
`is that right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Now, to someone -- so, first of all,
`March of 2001, that was after any demonstration
`activities with Free Amp, correct?
` A. Yes. And, as I said, this was the
`2.0 code base which was working on a different feature
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`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2019
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`202-232-0646
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`Page 115
`vector based on what we had learned from the Free Amp
`experience.
` Q. So the Free Amp was a different code base
`than what we are looking at in Exhibit 2 in the --
` A. It was an evolution of that code base.
` MR. DANG: Object to the form.
`BY MR. LEDAHL:
` Q. Now, the Free Amp demonstration that you
`mentioned, was that server code provided in some way
`to people who were using the system?
` A. No.
` MR. DANG: Object to the form.
`BY MR. LEDAHL:
` Q. Did they have any information about what
`the server code was or how it worked?
` A. No.
` Q. Did you provide any public disclosure of
`how the server side of that system worked?
` A. No. There may have been some additional
`emails in that time period. Unfortunately, I don't
`have, presently, access to that.
` Q. And those emails, are you referring to
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`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2019
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`202-232-0646
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`Page 116
`
`emails within people you worked with?
` A. Within the company and possibly with some
`of the collaborators like Robert Kay that have been
`external.
` Q. And who is Robert Kay?
` A. So he was, in essence, the project lead
`for Free Amp and also behind CD Index and MusicBrainz,
`the metadata repositories that we were mentioning.
` Q. Did you maintain any of the information
`as confidential vis-à-vis Mr. Kay?
` A. We did have a CDA in place with him but
`a lot of the information would not have been
`confidential.
` Q. But you had -- when you say a CDA, is that
`a confidential --
` A. Nondisclosure -- yeah.
` Q. Sorry.
` A. Sorry. European term versus American.
` Q. I'm going to -- I'll ask you to do
`something that I think Mr. Dang forgot at the
`beginning which is, because the reporter can only take
`down one of us at a time, I'll do my best to wait
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`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2019
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`202-232-0646
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`until you finish and if you can do the same --
` A. Yeah.
` Q. -- we will get a much clearer record.
` You said you had a form of nondisclosure
`agreement with Mr. Kay; is that correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. So the methods by which any search was
`conducted using your system in connection with
`Free Amp, was that something that was maintained as
`confidential?
` A. It was, yes.
` Q. And that was not disclosed to the public,
`correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. Was the information about how fingerprints
`were generated disclosed to the public?
` A. Yes.
` Q. How so?
` A. In the form of the source code for the
`client that was released open source as part of
`Free Amp.
` Q. And so the source code that ran -- now,
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`202-232-0646
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`the public, correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. Okay.
` A. We refer to it as TRM-B3 because it was
`actually three audio syncs concatenated.
` Q. So if someone was running the Free Amp
`trial that you mentioned, they would not have any
`information about how any lookup was being conducted;
`is that right?
` MR. DANG: Object to the form.
` THE WITNESS: Correct. They would not
`know how it did it; just that it was returning,
`you know, identifiers for the content. And the
`service was run on our server, you know, with our own
`binaries, so third parties never were running it.
`BY MR. LEDAHL:
` Q. So third parties didn't even have access
`to the binary, much less the source?
` A. Correct. They simply accessed the running
`service.
` Although we did ultimately provide
`a binary service to Rob Kay to be run as part of
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`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2019
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`202-232-0646
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`Confidential
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`Sean Ward
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`Page 133
`
` REPORTER CERTIFICATE
`I, LEAH WILLERSDORF, Accredited Verbatim Reporter,
`Member of the British Institute of Verbatim Reporters
`and Qualified Realtime Reporter, International
`Participating Member NCRA (United States), do hereby
`certify that: SEAN WARD appeared before me on
`Thursday, October 31, 2019, was sworn by me, and was
`thereupon examined by counsel; that the foregoing is
`true and accurate to the best of my knowledge, skill
`and ability; that the testimony of said witness was
`taken and reduced to stenotype writing before me; that
`I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by
`any of the parties to the action in which this
`deposition was taken; and further, that I am not a
`relative or employee of any attorney or counsel
`employed by the parties thereto; nor financially or
`otherwise interested in the outcome of the action.
` IN WITNESS WHEREOF I have hereunto set my hand
`this 4th day of November 2019.
`
` ___________________________
` LEAH M. WILLERSDORF
` AVR, MBIVR, QRR,
` International Participating Member NCRA.
`
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`www.DigitalEvidenceGroup.com
`
`Digital Evidence Group C'rt 2019
`
`202-232-0646
`
`
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