Case 5:17-cv-04467-BLF Document 340 Filed 01/13/21 Page 1 of 4
`Case 5:17-cv-04467-BLF Document 340 Filed 01/13/21 Page 1 of 4
`
`EXHIBIT 25
`
`EXHIBIT 25
`
`
`
`
`
`
`

`

`Case 5:17-cv-04467-BLF Document 340 Filed 01/13/21 Page 2 of 4
`
` PAGES 1 - 70
`UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
`NORTHERN DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
`BEFORE THE HONORABLE VIRGINIA K. DEMARCHI
`FINJAN, INC., A DELAWARE )
`CORPORATION, )
` )
` PLAINTIFF, )
` )
` VS. ) CASE NO. 17-CV-4467 BLF
` )
`SONICWALL, INC., A DELAWARE )
`CORPORATION, )
` ) SAN JOSE, CALIFORNIA
` DEFENDANT. ) TUESDAY
` ) OCTOBER 29, 2019
`___________________________________)
`
`
`TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS OF THE OFFICIAL ELECTRONIC SOUND
`RECORDING 10:33 A.M. - 12:00 NOON
`
`APPEARANCES:
` FOR PLAINTIFF KRAMER LEVIN NAFTALIS & FRANKEL LLP
`990 MARSH ROAD
`MENLO PARK, CALIFORNIA 94025
` BY: JAMES R. HANNAH, ESQUIRE
` AAKASH JARIWALA, ESQUIRE
`
` FOR DEFENDANT
`DUANE MORRIS LLP
`1075 PEACHTREE STREET NE, SUITE 200
`ATLANTA, GEORGIA 30309
` BY: ROBIN L. MCGRATH, ESQUIRE
`
`DUANE MORRIS LLP
`30 SOUTH 17TH STREET
`PHILADELPHIA, PENNSYLVANIA 19103
` BY: JARRAD M. GUNTHER, ESQUIRE
`
`
`
`
`TRANSCRIBED BY: JOAN MARIE COLUMBINI, CSR #5435, RPR
` RETIRED OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER, USDC
`
`

`

`Case 5:17-cv-04467-BLF Document 340 Filed 01/13/21 Page 3 of 4
`Case 5:17-cv-04467-BLF Document 340 Filed 01/13/21 Page 3 of 4
`
` 22
`
`22
`
`MR. GUNTHER: YES.
`
`THE COURT:
`
`OKAY.
`
`ALL RIGHT.
`
`THANK YOU FOR THAT.
`
`LET ME TURN TO THE PLAINTIFFS AND GET THEIR VIEWS ON
`
`THAT ISSUE.
`
`SO WILL IT BE MR. HANNAH?
`
`MR. HANNAH: YES, YOUR HONOR.
`
`MAY IT PLEASE THE
`
`COURT, THANK YOU.
`
`THE COURT:
`
`SO LET ME -- I WOULD LIKE TO GET YOUR
`
`RESPONSE TO THE POINTS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE, BUT I WANT TO START
`
`WITH THE BASIC QUESTION OF THE INFRINGEMENT THEORY.
`
`IS THERE AN INFRINGEMENT THEORY THAT FINIGAN HAS THAT
`
`THE GATEWAY PRODUCT AND THE ESA PRODUCT INFRINGE WITHOUT
`
`CONNECTING TO ANY SANDBOX IN THE CLOUD?
`
`MR. HANNAH:
`
`SO IF I CA
`
`-- IF I CAN BACK UP -- BACK
`
`UP A LITTLE BIT?
`
`MR. GUNTHER: YES.
`THE COURT: OKAY. ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU FOR THAT.
`LET ME TURN TO THE PLAINTIFFS AND GET THEIR VIEWS ON
`THAT ISSUE. SO WILL IT BE MR. HANNAH?
`MR. HANNAH: YES, YOUR HONOR. MAY IT PLEASE THE
`COURT, THANK YOU.
`THE COURT: SO LET ME -- I WOULD LIKE TO GET YOUR
`RESPONSE TO THE POINTS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE, BUT I WANT TO START
`WITH THE BASIC QUESTION OF THE INFRINGEMENT THEORY.
`IS THERE AN INFRINGEMENT THEORY THAT FINIGAN HAS THAT
`THE GATEWAY PRODUCT AND THE ESA PRODUCT INFRINGE WITHOUT
`CONNECTING TO ANY SANDBOX IN THE CLOUD?
`MR. HANNAH: SO IF I CAN -- IF I CAN BACK UP -- BACK
`UP A LITTLE BIT?
`THE WAY THAT THESE PRODUCTS WORK AND WHAT WE'VE
`THE WAY THAT THESE PRODUCTS WORK AND WHAT WE'VE
`ACCUSED IS WE'VE ACCUSED THE GATEWAY BY ITSELF AS IT'S SOLD,
`ACCUSED IS WE'VE ACCUSED THE GATEWAY BY ITSELF AS IT'S SOLD,
`AND THEN THE ESA BY ITSELF AS IT'S SOLD, AND THEN CAPTURE ATP.
`AND THEN THE ESA BY ITSELF AS IT'S SOLD, AND THEN CAPTURE ATP.
`IT'S A SEPARATE PRODUCT. SEPARATE, IT'S SOLD SEPARATELY.
`IT'S A SEPARATE PRODUCT. SEPARATE, IT'S SOLD SEPARATELY.
`THE GATEWAY BY ITSELF INCLUDES CLOUD AV AND GRID.
`THAT COMES WITH THE GATEWAY PRODUCT. I DISAGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY
`WITH WHAT COUNSEL JUST SAID THAT WOULD THE GATEWAY PRODUCT WORK
`WITHOUT CLOUD AV AND GRID, ABSOLUTELY NOT.
`(SIMULTANEOUS COLLOQUY.)
`THE COURT: JUST A MINUTE. JUST SO I UNDERSTAND THE
`TERMINOLOGY, CLOUD AV AND GRID ARE NOT SAME THING AS CLOUD AV
`
`TERMINOLOGY, CLOUD AV AND GRID ARE NOT SAME THING AS CLOUD AV
`
` 1
` 2
` 3
` 4
` 5
` 6
` 7
` 8
` 9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`THE GATEWAY BY ITSELF INCLUDES CLOUD AV AND GRID.
`
`THAT COMES WITH THE GATEWAY PRODUCT.
`
`I DISAGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY
`
`WITH WHAT COUNSEL JUST SAID THAT WOULD THE GATEWAY PRODUCT WORK
`
`WITHOUT CLOUD AV AND GRID, ABSOLUTELY NOT.
`
`(SIMULTANEOUS COLLOQUY.)
`
`THE COURT:
`
`JUST A MINUTE.
`
`JUST SO I UNDERSTAND THE
`
`JOAN MARIE COLUMBINI, CSR, RPR
`JOAN.MARIE COLUMBINI, CSR, RPR
`RETIRED OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER, USDC
`RETIRED OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER, USDC
`510-367-3043
`510-367-3043
`
`

`

`Case 5:17-cv-04467-BLF Document 340 Filed 01/13/21 Page 4 of 4
`Case 5:17-cv-04467-BLF Document 340 Filed 01/13/21 Page 4 of 4
`
` 28
`
`28
`
`MR. HANNAH:
`
`RIGHT.
`
`SO THAT'S THE CAPTURE -- I'M
`
`SORRY.
`
`SO ON THE BOX IS THE CLOUD -- THAT CLOUD AV AND THE
`
`THREAT GRID INFORMATION, GOING FROM GRID TO THE CLOUD -- TO
`
`THAT COMPONENT.
`
`THE COURT:
`
`SO YOU'RE ACCUSING EVERYTHING EXCEPT THIS
`
`INTERACTION WITH THE SONICWALL CAPTURE CLOUD SERVICE WHEN YOU
`
`SAY "GATEWAY ONLY"?
`
`MR. HANNAH:
`
`GATEWAY OR ESA, CORRECT, BECAUSE THAT'S
`
`THE FUNCTIONALITY YOU GET WHEN YOU BUY THE PRODUCT.
`
`MR. HANNAH: RIGHT. SO THAT'S THE CAPTURE -- I'M
`SORRY. SO ON THE BOX IS THE CLOUD -- THAT CLOUD AV AND THE
`THREAT GRID INFORMATION, GOING FROM GRID TO THE CLOUD -- TO
`THAT COMPONENT.
`THIS BACK AND FORTH WHERE IT SAYS THE FILE VERDICT,
`THIS BACK AND FORTH WHERE IT SAYS THE FILE VERDICT,
`THAT IS WHEN YOU'RE ACTUALLY SENDING A FILE UP TO THE CLOUD,
`THAT IS WHEN YOU'RE ACTUALLY SENDING A FILE UP TO THE CLOUD,
`AND THEN IT, IN TURN, WILL SEND INFORMATION BACK BASED ON
`AND THEN IT, IN TURN, WILL SEND INFORMATION BACK BASED ON
`WHATEVER SANDBOXING THAT YOU DO THROUGH CAPTURE ATP.
`WHATEVER SANDBOXING THAT YOU DO THROUGH CAPTURE ATP.
`THAT IS A SEPARATE PRODUCT. THAT'S A SEPARATE
`THAT IS A SEPARATE PRODUCT. THAT'S A SEPARATE
`SERVICE THAT YOU PAY FOR. THAT'S AN INTERACTION WHERE YOU'RE
`SERVICE THAT YOU PAY FOR. THAT'S AN INTERACTION WHERE YOU'RE
`CONNECTING TO THE CLOUD IN ORDER TO SEND INFORMATION UP AND GET
`CONNECTING TO THE CLOUD IN ORDER TO SEND INFORMATION UP AND GET
`INFORMATION BACK. YOU'RE NOT -- WHEN YOU BUY THE GATEWAY, FROM
`INFORMATION BACK. YOU'RE NOT -- WHEN YOU BUY THE GATEWAY, FROM
`WHAT I UNDERSTAND BASED ON THE INFORMATION WE HAVE SO FAR, YOU
`WHAT I UNDERSTAND BASED ON THE INFORMATION WE HAVE SO FAR, YOU
`DON'T GET THAT FUNCTIONALITY. YOU HAVE TO PAY FOR THAT
`DON'T GET THAT FUNCTIONALITY. YOU HAVE TO PAY FOR THAT
`FUNCTIONALITY WITH CAPTURE ATP.
`FUNCTIONALITY WITH CAPTURE ATP.
`THE COURT: SO YOU'RE ACCUSING EVERYTHING EXCEPT THIS
`INTERACTION WITH THE SONICWALL CAPTURE CLOUD SERVICE WHEN YOU
`SAY "GATEWAY ONLY"?
`MR. HANNAH: GATEWAY OR ESA, CORRECT, BECAUSE THAT'S
`THE FUNCTIONALITY YOU GET WHEN YOU BUY THE PRODUCT.
`THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. SO NEXT QUESTION IS --
`MR. HANNAH: YES.
`THE COURT: IF THAT'S THE CASE, WHY DIDN'T YOU ACCUSE
`IT IN THE FIRST PLACE?
`MR. HANNAH: I BELIEVE WE DID. THAT'S THROUGHOUT OUR
`
` 1
` 2
` 3
` 4
` 5
` 6
` 7
` 8
` 9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`THAT'S THROUGHOUT OUR
`
`THE COURT:
`
`ALL RIGHT.
`
`SO NEXT QUESTION IS --
`
`MR. HANNAH: YES.
`
`THE COURT:
`
`IF THAT'S THE CASE, WHY DIDN'T YOU ACCUSE
`
`IT IN THE FIRST PLACE?
`
`MR. HANNAH:
`
`I BELIEVE WE DID.
`
`JOAN MARIE COLUMBINI, CSR, RPR
`JOAN.MARIE COLUMBINI, CSR, RPR
`RETIRED OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER, USDC
`RETIRED OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER, USDC
`510-367-3043
`510-367-3043
`
`