Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-9 Filed 12/09/19 Page 1 of 24 PageID #: 6729
`Case 5:19-cv-00036—RWS Document 161-9 Filed 12/09/19 Page 1 of 24 PageID #: 6729
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`Case 5:19-cv-00036—RWS Document 161-9 Filed 12/09/19 Page 1 of 24 PageID #: 6729
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`Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-9 Filed 12/09/19 Page 2 of 24 PageID #: 6730
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` UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
` EASTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS
` TEXARKANA DIVISION
`--------------------------X
`MAXELL, LTD., :
` Plaintiff, : Case No.
` v. : 5:19-cv-00036-RWS
`APPLE INC., :
` Defendant. :
`--------------------------X
` Videotaped deposition of VIJAY MADISETTI Ph.D.
` Tuesday, October 22, 2019
` Atlanta, GA
` 8:57 a.m.
`
`Job No.: 170439
`Pages: 1 - 186
`Reported by: Giselle Mitchell-Margerum, RPR, CRI,
`CCR
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` V. MADISETTI
` Q. Yes. Understood. I mean, an expert is
`not expected to be able to list every single piece
`of knowledge he has acquired over, you know, in
`your case, your 30-plus years of working in the
`field. Right?
` What I'm asking is, is, you know,
`paragraph 32, complete as of the date you signed
`your expert declaration, on October 4th 2019?
` A. I would say I would look at the entire
`section four as being representative of what I've
`considered. Not just paragraph 32; but also
`paragraphs 33 and 34, in informing my opinions and
`providing the basis for those.
` Q. So, let me re-ask that question. Is
`section four, covering paragraphs 32 to 34,
`complete as of the date of your declaration on
`October 4th?
` A. Yes.
` MR. ZHOU: Do you want to take a short
`break?
` MR. NESE: Sure.
` MR. ZHOU: We've been going for about an
`hour.
` MR. NESE: Sure. Sounds good.
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` V. MADISETTI
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 10:01. We are off the
`record.
` (Short break)
` THE VIDEOGRAPHER: 10:10. We are back on
`the record.
`BY MR. ZHOU:
` Q. So, Dr. Madisetti, from paragraph 45
`through paragraph 40 -- 61, you address what we
`have been referring to as the "culling" claim term.
`Is that right?
` A. Yes. Starting on page 10, I have a
`Section A, where I provide certain opinions with
`respect to those claim terms that are in dispute.
`These are some of the opinions that I offer with
`respect to this term.
` Q. And this term is the "culling" or
`"culled" term. Right?
` A. Yes.
` Q. I refer you to page 11. The footnote on
`page 11. So, in your declaration, you are not
`offering an opinion on the "mixed" term. Is that
`right?
` A. I'm not. I've not been asked to offer
`such an opinion.
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` V. MADISETTI
` Q. And you did not offer any opinion on the
`"mixed" term in your expert declaration. Right?
` A. I did not.
` Q. We've been talking about the culled, or
`culling term, several times now. I want to refer
`you to Exhibit 2. The 493 Patent. Take a look at
`column 16; claim one. The very top of column 16 is
`a limitation from claim one that reads in part:
` "The signal processing unit generates the
`image signals by mixing or culling signal charges
`accumulated in the end number of vertically
`arranged pixel lines."
` Do you see that?
` A. I do. You're referring to column 16,
`lines one through six. Right?
` Q. Yes. Generally, around lines, from one
`to four, is the part I read.
` A. Okay.
` Q. And this is where the culling term is
`first used in the patent claims. Right?
` A. Yes. That appears in claim one. And in
`claim one, you are reading the limitation in column
`16, lines one through six.
` Q. And this is where when we refer to the
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` V. MADISETTI
`culling term, would you understand that I'm
`referring to the culling term in the context of the
`larger limitation I've read to you?
` A. I don't think I understood the question.
`Culling appears in that limitation.
` Q. And it's in the context of this
`limitation that you're offering an opinion on the
`construction of the culling term. Is that right?
` A. I'm offering an interpretation of the
`term "culling," and "culled," in all the asserted
`claims.
` Q. Which includes the limitation in column
`16, lines one through six. Is that right?
` A. Yes. It includes the limitation. But it
`covers, generally, all the claims that are at
`issue. And I use the term -- I describe my
`understanding of how one would understand this as a
`POSITA, when reviewing the 493 Patent and its
`claims.
` Q. And, going back to your expert
`declaration, around line 47, it's your opinion that
`no construction is necessary for the culling term.
`Right?
` A. You mean paragraph 47?
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` V. MADISETTI
` (Exhibit 3 marked for identification)
` Q. So, Dr. Madisetti, have you seen
`Exhibit 3 before?
` A. Again, I cannot recall specifically
`whether I've seen it or not.
` Q. So, in the only page of the dictionary
`excerpt we have produced here, there is a
`definition for the word "cull;" C-U-L-L. Do you
`see that?
` A. I do.
` Q. And there are five different potential
`definitions listed under the definition. Do you
`see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Do any of these definitions apply to the
`context of the 493 Patent?
` A. I mean, I won't -- as I said, I would not
`opine here that any of these is a definition. I
`would certainly say that the term, "cull," as used
`in general English, outside the context of the 493,
`is being described here. Again, outside the
`context of the 493 and image processing, in the
`terms that are described here.
` So I do not wish to comment as to, you
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` V. MADISETTI
`know, any of these terms. Because I have offered
`an opinion with respect to what a POSITA would
`understand, in light of the description of the 493.
` But I would acknowledge that these are
`English language descriptions of the term "cull."
`Outside the context of the 493.
` Q. So the question I have is, does the word
`"cull" have a different meaning in the context of
`the 493 Patent, as compared to its ordinary
`dictionary definition?
` A. Again, as I said, this description here
`is, in some sense -- it is not applicable. It is
`not being applied to image processing, or to the
`field of endeavor that covers the type of art that
`493 is involved with.
` So I do not have a specific opinion as to
`these terms here, with respect to cull, beyond
`acknowledging that this is a general English
`dictionary that is not connected to the 493 Patent.
` MR. ZHOU: And, Bryan, just as a
`housekeeping matter, that document was produced by
`us. The vendor somehow printed it out without the
`Bates number, which I don't know how they did that.
`But I could get you the Bates numbers at a break.
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` V. MADISETTI
` MR. NESE: That's okay. This looks
`familiar. I know you're not trying to switch
`things up on me.
` MR. ZHOU: I'm not ambushing you with any
`new documents here.
` MR. NESE: I appreciate that.
`BY MR. ZHOU:
` Q. But you do have an understanding as to
`what the plain and ordinary meaning of "culling"
`is, in the context of the 493 Patent. Is that
`right?
` A. I mean, are you referring to this exhibit
`at all, or is it a general question?
` Q. No, no. You can put that away.
` A. Okay.
` Q. In the context of Exhibit 2, which is the
`493 Patent --
` A. Yes.
` Q. -- you do have an understanding as to
`what "culling" means in the context of this patent.
`Is that right?
` A. As I said, I can point to various
`examples of what "culling" can be. I don't think
`that -- I don't opine that it needs a definition.
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` V. MADISETTI
`I have said a plain and ordinary meaning would
`suffice. And I can certainly point to various
`examples that are non-limiting, that the 493 Patent
`itself discloses.
` For example, in column two, lines 44
`through 48.
` Q. So, if I were to generate a image from a
`digital camera that omits one or more pixel lines
`along the top and bottom of the sensor, would that
`be an example of "culling," as that term is used in
`the context of the 493 Patent?
` A. Again, as I said, I mean, I have to look
`at the details and see how it's done. But it could
`be an example. It's not limiting. It is not --
`culling is not restricted to that.
` Culling can be having different -- is not
`limited to that particular example, but it could
`be. But I would need to know a little more about
`the details.
` Q. So what if I were to omit pixel lines at
`the extreme left and right of the sensor? Would
`that be another example of culling, as this term is
`used in the 493 Patent?
` A. Again, as I said, I would look at the
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` V. MADISETTI
`exact system, and based on this very high level
`description, that could be, again, a non-limiting,
`non-restricting example of the term, "culling," as
`used in the 493.
` MR. ZHOU: Exhibit 4; right? The next
`one.
` (Exhibit 4 marked for identification)
` Q. I will mark as Exhibit 4, an excerpt from
`the file history of the 493 Patent, containing the
`original claims, as included with the original
`application.
` MR. NESE: And, again, Vincent, no Bates
`numbers here?
` MR. ZHOU: That's right. I'll make a
`representation that this is part of the file
`history that we pulled down from the patent office.
` MR. NESE: Sure. I would just recommend
`if you could just put it on the record so that we
`can track which --
` MR. ZHOU: Sure.
` MR. NESE: -- easily. Thank you.
`BY MR. ZHOU:
` Q. Dr. Madisetti, take a look at original
`claim six near the bottom of page 40.
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` V. MADISETTI
` A. Okay.
` Q. Original claim six recites, in part, the
`pixel lines do not include one or more pixel lines,
`a top and/or bottom of the sensor. So that could
`be, for example, one possible example of a culling
`operation, as the term is used in the 493 Patent.
` Is that right?
` A. Again, I have to look at this in detail
`and see what the back and forth was between the
`patent office and the applicant.
` And so, if you can provide me the
`remaining pages of this, then I can provide you a
`more detailed answer as to why the patentee may
`have felt one way or the other.
` Q. I'm not asking about the validity of
`claim six, or the issuance of claim six, or any
`back and forth. I'm only asking whether you
`believe the omission of one or more pixel lines at
`the top and/or bottom of the sensor to be a type of
`culling operation, under your understanding of the
`plain and ordinary meaning of the term.
` A. I believe the claim six depends on claim
`five of this file history. And claim five, for
`example, on page 40, describes a varying
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` V. MADISETTI
`limitation, wherein when monitoring an image and a
`static image mold, the signal processing unit
`generates image signals by using pixel lines that
`have been mixed or culled from the N number of
`vertically arranged pixel lines, to only include
`pixel lines separated from one another by intervals
`of the first distance.
` And then there is another wherein clause,
`again, where they describe a similar limitation.
`Wherein pixel lines which have been mixed or culled
`from then number of vertically arranged pixel
`lines, to only include pixel lines separated from
`one another by intervals of a second distance.
` So, then, they talk in claim six about an
`additional limitation, wherein recording an image
`in the moving video mode, the pixel lines do not
`include one or more pixel lines.
` So, as I said, I mean, at a high level, I
`think this can include an example of the type of
`culling. Again, if it satisfies this particular
`limitation in claim five.
` Q. And applying your plain and ordinary
`interpretation of the word "culling," would the
`last part of claim six, referring to the omission
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` V. MADISETTI
`of one or more pixels at a left extreme and/or
`right extreme of the pixel lines, be a type of
`culling?
` A. As I said, it can. And I would have to
`look more about how this could be done, and under
`which scenario this is actually implemented. But I
`certainly can offer an opinion that this can, in
`certain types of ways it could be done -- it could
`be a type of culling.
` Q. So, going back to -- you can put away
`Exhibit 4 for now. Going back to your declaration,
`which is Exhibit 1, in paragraph 51, you cite one
`portion of the patent specification, as it relates
`to the description of the culling.
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes. I provide various examples of
`culling, which is again, non-limiting. These are
`representative examples.
` Q. So, in paragraph 51, you cite to one
`portion of the patent specification. Is that
`right?
` A. That's one example, yes.
` Q. And that example is:
` "The number of lines of output signals
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` V. MADISETTI
`can also be reduced by a so-called culling
`operation, by which only one line of signal charges
`of pixels is read out for every predetermined
`number of lines."
` Do you see that?
` A. I see them. The way I would interpret is
`that it's describing a culling operation. And one
`example of the culling operation is used in this
`particular case, where one line of signal charges
`is read out for every predetermined lines.
` And this is consistent, again, with
`column two, lines 44 through 48.
` Q. And the part about where the
`specification describes reading one line out of
`every predetermined number of lines, is in column
`10, lines nine through 12. Is that right?
` A. That's where the example of a particular
`type of culling is disclosed in column 10, lines
`nine through 12.
` Q. One possible implementation of this would
`be to read one line out of every three lines. Is
`that right?
` A. One example of a type of culling -- which
`is, again, non-restrictive, non-limiting -- could
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` V. MADISETTI
` A. In case of progressive, it would be 14.
`In case of interlaced, it could be seven.
` Q. Again, I'm only asking about the example
`we looked at in paragraph 73. Is the answer seven
`or 14?
` A. Again, I would say that it's -- the claim
`requires -- the term requires -- so, as you see in
`paragraph 66, the effective lines are referred to
`as the lines actually displayed on a monitor. As I
`describe in paragraph 66.
` And in the NTSC example, which, again, is
`a non-limiting example, the patent covers other
`television systems that -- and other displays that
`include progressive scanning as well.
` The lines displayed is equal to the
`number of scanning lines in the vertical blanking
`period, subtracted from the total number of
`scanning lines in each field.
` Q. So the passage you read links the
`effective number of lines to the scanning lines in
`each field, minus the lines in the vertical
`blanking period. Right?
` A. From the total number. Yes; yes. That's
`right. The total number of scanning lines in each
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` V. MADISETTI
`field, minus the number of scanning lines in the
`vertical blanking period.
` Q. So, again, I'm not asking you about claim
`construction yet. I'm just looking at Maxell's
`proposed construction, in paragraph 62, as applied
`to the example we provided -- or we just discussed
`in paragraph 73.
` I'm asking whether the answer is seven or
`14 lines.
` A. I believe it could be either.
` Q. Applying Maxell's construction to the
`example given in paragraph 73, the answer could be
`either seven or 14. Is that right?
` A. Both would be -- both would be correct.
` Q. So, going back to the construction in
`paragraph 62, "Maxell's construction is the number
`of lines on a display screen corresponding to an
`actually displayed image."
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. So, in the example given in paragraph 73,
`is the actually displayed image the full image with
`the two fields together? Or is it half of the
`picture, as you describe in paragraph 74?
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` V. MADISETTI
` A. As I said, I mean, we are talking about
`particular examples. We are talking about, in the
`case of progressive display, it is all the -- all
`the lines that are displayed in the image.
` Q. So, I'm not asking about progressive
`display.
` A. Yes.
` Q. I'm asking about the example you gave in
`paragraph 73. The example you gave in your expert
`declaration. To apply Maxell's claim construction
`to this example, your testimony is that the number
`of lines on the display screen, corresponding to an
`actually displayed image, could be either seven or
`14, as applied to the example given in paragraph
`73.
` Is that right?
` A. It depends on how the display is
`realized. So, for example, if you have seven lines
`that are displayed, then only seven. If you have
`14 lines displayed, then it would be 14.
` Q. So how many lines are displayed in the
`example you gave me in paragraph 73?
` A. It depends on how the display was
`designed.
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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`
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` V. MADISETTI
`saying is that the number of scanning -- the total
`number of lines that are scanned -- sorry.
` The total number of scanning lines in
`each field, you subtract the lines that would have
`been covered in the vertical blanking period. And
`that results in the effective number of lines
`actually displayed.
` Q. So going to --
` A. For this embodiment.
` Q. So, going to paragraph 69, you explain
`that:
` "Based on the fact that effective
`scanning lines refer to the number of scanning
`lines actually displayed on screen, Maxell proposed
`the construction of the term as the number of lines
`on a display screen corresponding to an actually
`displayed image."
` Do you see that?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Do you know what the reason is to tie
`what's actually displayed on the screen to an
`actually displayed image?
` A. Yes. Because sometimes, you may have --
`you may not -- you may have something that is
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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`Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-9 Filed 12/09/19 Page 20 of 24 PageID #: 6748
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` V. MADISETTI
`displayed. Your screen may not -- you screen may
`be larger than your display -- the displayed image.
` Q. So, if I display an image on -- you know,
`say, one quarter of the screen, the number of
`effective scanning lines will only be those lines
`used to display the image. Not the entire screen.
` Is that how I should read Maxell's
`construction?
` A. Yes. That could be one example.
` MR. ZHOU: So let me mark as Exhibit 6 --
`this is just a random image I pulled off of the
`Internet of a camera display.
` (Exhibit 6 marked for identification)
` MR. NESE: Is that how we're going to
`describe it in the transcript?
`BY MR. ZHOU:
` Q. So, Exhibit 6 is a user interface example
`I found for a generic camera -- Sony camera.
`Again, this is not relevant to any accused -- I
`will make a representation that this is not to any
`product accused in this case, or any prior art
`asserted.
` All I want to know is how I should read
`Maxell's claim construction. Is the number of
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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` V. MADISETTI
`lines used to display an image -- does that only
`refer to the number of lines used to display the
`picture in the lower left corner of the screen? Or
`does it refer to the entire display that's shown on
`the screen?
` MR. NESE: Vincent, can I have a running
`objection to this line of questioning -- that this
`Exhibit is incomplete, and not giving enough
`information to properly form an answer?
` MR. ZHOU: Sure.
` A. As I said, I mean, it's a very general
`hypothetical question. And it relates more to
`infringement than to any of the claim construction.
` But, without tying myself down to a
`particular interpretation, given the lack of enough
`information, I would -- I would -- again, I would
`guess that -- I mean, I would offer again that it
`would be the actual image that is displayed on the
`bottom left.
` Q. So, without, you know, looking at further
`evidence; just looking at the plain language of
`Maxell's construction, the number of scanning lines
`on a display image corresponding to an actually
`displayed image, will only be the number of lines
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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`Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-9 Filed 12/09/19 Page 22 of 24 PageID #: 6750
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` V. MADISETTI
`that correspond to the picture shown in the left
`corner of Exhibit 6?
` A. Again -- again, with the qualifications
`that I made earlier, that I don't have enough
`information; that I reserve the right to change
`once I know more detail.
` It is my initial unverified opinion that
`it would be the image on the bottom left that
`describes -- I don't know what it describes. It
`looks like a farm of some kind.
` Q. So, the number of effective scanning
`lines of a screen can change from display to
`display, depending on how the user interface is
`configured. Is that right? It's not a fixed
`number associated with a particular screen.
` A. Again, I would refer back to the
`construction. This would be, essentially --
`without going into specifics for each, I would say
`that it's the number of lines on a display screen
`corresponding to the actually displayed image.
` And that's pretty clear, that the number
`of lines on a display screen that correspond to an
`actually displayed image means that that's the
`actually displayed image. So, in that sense, the
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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`
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` V. MADISETTI
`invention, or the inventive aspects are pretty
`valuable, because they apply each and every time
`the image is displayed.
` Q. So, Dr. Madisetti, you -- going back to
`paragraph 62 of your declaration, which lists the
`parties' constructions, you've -- I think you've
`made your point very clear that you disagree with
`Apple's construction as being limited to an
`interlaced display. Is that right?
` A. Yes. Apple's -- and Apple's expert have,
`number one, made a -- number one, said that the
`only embodiment disclosed was interlaced. And I
`disagree. The descriptions of TV systems to one of
`ordinary skill in the art would describe
`progressive scan and progressive displays, ranging
`back to the 1920s and '30s. And second --
` Q. So other --
` A. And second --
` Q. Go ahead.
` A. And second, talking about a single field
`or interlaced scanning display is unduly
`restrictive.
` Q. So, other than the words "field" and
`"interlaced," do you disagree with any other part
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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` V. MADISETTI
`of Apple's proposed construction?
` A. I would say, I would be -- as I said,
`those are at least two reasons. I would still go
`back to the Maxell's proposed construction, which
`makes it very clear that it's a number of lines on
`a display screen that correspond to an actually
`displayed image.
` I don't think that the language on the
`right, which is Apple's construction, captures
`that -- that nuance of the construction, that it
`should be an actually displayed image.
` Q. So your opinion is that Apple's
`construction is too broad, in certain aspects, by
`not limiting the display to an actually displayed
`image. Is that correct?
` A. Again, at a very high level, that's one
`of the reasons. Again, I would say that, number
`one, it is restricting it to fields and
`interlacing. It does not allow. It is -- it is,
`in some sense, focusing more on -- it doesn't
`clarify what the display is.
` I don't think it is of much use to a
`jury. I would think that one of ordinary skill in
`the art would understand that the number of lines
`
`TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
`
`
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