Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-6 Filed 12/09/19 Page 1 of 19 PageID #: 6695
`Case 5:19-cv-00036—RWS Document 161-6 Filed 12/09/19 Page 1 of 19 PageID #: 6695
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`Case 5:19-cv-00036—RWS Document 161-6 Filed 12/09/19 Page 1 of 19 PageID #: 6695
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`Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-6 Filed 12/09/19 Page 2 of 19 PageID #: 6696
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`·1
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`·2· · · · ·IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
`· · · · · · FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS
`·3· · · · · · · · ·TEXARKANA DIVISION
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`·4· ·__________________________
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`·5· ·MAXELL, LTD.,· · · · · · ·)Case No.
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)5:19-cv-00036-RWS
`·6· · · Plaintiff· · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·7· ·vs.· · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·8· ·APPLE, INC.,· · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·9· · · Defendant· · · · · · · )
`· · ·___________________________
`10
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`12
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`13· · · · · · · Videotaped Deposition of
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`14· · · · · · · Michael C. Brogioli, Ph.D.
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`15
`· · · · · · · · · · Washington, D.C.
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`· · · · · · · · · · October 24, 2019
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`· · · · · · · · · · · · 8:35 a.m.
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`24
`· · ·Reported by:· Bonnie L. Russo
`25· ·Job No. 170302
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`Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-6 Filed 12/09/19 Page 3 of 19 PageID #: 6697
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`·1· · · · · · · MICHAEL C. BROGIOLI, PH.D.
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`·2· ·term "layperson."· I don't -- I'm not sure what
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`Page 96
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`·3· ·the definition of that is.
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`·4· · · · · · ·BY MR. ZHOU:
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`·5· · · ·Q.· · A person without engineering or any
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`·6· ·person who does not qualify as a person of
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`·7· ·ordinary skill in the art by your definition.
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`·8· · · ·A.· · I don't have an opinion on that.
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`·9· · · ·Q.· · You don't have an opinion on that.
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`10· · · · · · ·Earlier, I asked whether a person of
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`11· ·ordinary skill in the art would be able to
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`12· ·understand what is included versus what is
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`13· ·excluded by the capacity detector term, and I
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`14· ·believe your answer is that a person of skill
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`15· ·in the art would read the patent and understand
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`16· ·what the capacity detector needs to do; is that
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`17· ·right?
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`18· · · · · · ·MR. BARROW:· Objection.· Form.
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`19· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· What I was saying is
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`20· ·that a person of skill in the art would
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`21· ·understand what capacity detector is talking
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`22· ·about in the patent and understand a structure
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`23· ·to perform that or a number of structures I
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`24· ·guess.
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`25· · · · · · ·BY MR. ZHOU:
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`Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-6 Filed 12/09/19 Page 4 of 19 PageID #: 6698
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`Page 97
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`·1· · · · · · · MICHAEL C. BROGIOLI, PH.D.
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`·2· · · ·Q.· · So on the top of Page 9, you
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`·3· ·describe a stated function of detecting a
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`·4· ·remaining capacity of the battery.
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`·5· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
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`·6· · · ·A.· · Yes.
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`·7· · · ·Q.· · And that is the function required by
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`·8· ·the capacity detector terms, right?
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`·9· · · ·A.· · Well, I'm saying that the capacity
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`10· ·detector terms have their plain and ordinary
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`11· ·meaning and that a structure for the stated
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`12· ·function of detecting a remaining capacity of
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`13· ·the battery would be known by someone of skill
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`14· ·in the art.
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`15· · · ·Q.· · Can you think of any structure that
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`16· ·would perform this function of detecting a
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`17· ·remaining capacity of the battery that would
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`18· ·fall outside of the plain and ordinary meaning
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`19· ·of the battery capacity -- of the capacity
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`20· ·detector terms?
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`21· · · · · · ·MR. BARROW:· Objection.· Form.
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`22· ·Objection.· Scope.
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`23· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I'm not sure the
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`24· ·patent talks about -- the question doesn't make
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`25· ·sense to me.· I don't think the patent talks
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`Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-6 Filed 12/09/19 Page 5 of 19 PageID #: 6699
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`·1· · · · · · · MICHAEL C. BROGIOLI, PH.D.
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`·2· ·about things that are intentionally outside the
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`Page 98
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`·3· ·scope of the patent.
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`·4· · · · · · ·BY MR. ZHOU:
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`·5· · · ·Q.· · I am not asking about what the
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`·6· ·patent talks about.
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`·7· · · · · · ·I'm asking about, what is your
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`·8· ·understanding of the plain and ordinary meaning
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`·9· ·of the term, right?· So there is a plain and
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`10· ·ordinary meaning of the capacity detector term,
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`11· ·right?
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`12· · · ·A.· · Right.
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`13· · · ·Q.· · And you mentioned that there are a
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`14· ·number of structures that could perform the
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`15· ·function of detecting a capacity detector --
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`16· ·I'm sorry, strike that.
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`17· · · · · · ·There are a number of structures
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`18· ·that could perform the function of detecting a
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`19· ·remaining capacity of the battery, right?
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`20· · · ·A.· · There are a few that I talk about in
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`21· ·my declaration.
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`22· · · ·Q.· · And you opine that a person of skill
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`23· ·in the art would know a different number of
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`24· ·possible structures that could perform this
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`25· ·function, right?
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`Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-6 Filed 12/09/19 Page 6 of 19 PageID #: 6700
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`Page 99
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`·1· · · · · · · MICHAEL C. BROGIOLI, PH.D.
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`·2· · · ·A.· · I would say, depending on their sort
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`·3· ·of particular background or career path, they
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`·4· ·would know at least one, if not a couple.
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`·5· · · ·Q.· · Sure.· So can you think of any
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`·6· ·structure that is capable of performing the
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`·7· ·function of detecting a remaining capacity of
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`·8· ·the battery, but would fall outside of the
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`·9· ·plain and ordinary meaning of the capacity
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`10· ·detector term?
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`11· · · · · · · ·MR. BARROW:· Objection.· Form.
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`12· ·Objection.· Scope.
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`13· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't know that I
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`14· ·have thought about that, but, I mean, something
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`15· ·that does -- isn't a -- maybe I am not
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`16· ·understanding your question, but something that
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`17· ·is not a capacity detector wouldn't do that.
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`18· · · · · · ·BY MR. ZHOU:
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`19· · · ·Q.· · So as you sit here today, can you
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`20· ·think of any structure that can perform the
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`21· ·function of detecting a remaining capacity of
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`22· ·the battery, but would not qualify as a
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`23· ·capacity detector?
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`24· · · · · · ·MR. BARROW:· Objection.· Form.
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`25· ·Objection.· Scope.
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`Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-6 Filed 12/09/19 Page 7 of 19 PageID #: 6701
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`Page 100
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`·1· · · · · · · MICHAEL C. BROGIOLI, PH.D.
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`·2· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't know that I --
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`·3· ·I'm not quite sure I understand your question
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`·4· ·but I don't think I have an opinion on that.
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`·5· · · · · · ·I mean, I have provided in the
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`·6· ·declaration I think, I kind of remember there's
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`·7· ·three solutions, like, an analog circuit, or
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`·8· ·digital hardware or hardware plus a little bit
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`·9· ·of software kind of thing.
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`10· · · · · · ·BY MR. ZHOU:
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`11· · · ·Q.· · So I understand that you provided
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`12· ·some examples of what you would consider to be
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`13· ·within the scope of a capacity detector, right?
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`14· · · ·A.· · Examples that I -- that provide the
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`15· ·structure for this, the function I associate
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`16· ·with it, yes.
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`17· · · ·Q.· · But there are other structures,
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`18· ·beyond the examples you provided, that are also
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`19· ·capable of detecting a remaining capacity of
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`20· ·the battery, right?
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`21· · · · · · ·MR. BARROW:· Objection.· Form.
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`22· ·Objection.· Scope.
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`23· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· If you are asking, are
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`24· ·there other examples that someone could come up
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`25· ·with that are outside what I -- the couple of
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`Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-6 Filed 12/09/19 Page 8 of 19 PageID #: 6702
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`Page 101
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`·1· · · · · · · MICHAEL C. BROGIOLI, PH.D.
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`·2· ·examples I listed, there is probably something.
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`·3· · · · · · ·BY MR. ZHOU:
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`·4· · · ·Q.· · The examples you provided are not
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`·5· ·exclusive, right?
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`·6· · · · · · ·MR. BARROW:· Objection.· Form.
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`·7· ·Objection.· Scope.
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`·8· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· My intention was not
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`·9· ·to be exclusive.
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`10· · · · · · ·BY MR. ZHOU:
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`11· · · ·Q.· · Right.· As you sit here today, can
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`12· ·you think of any other example of something
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`13· ·that could detect a remaining capacity of the
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`14· ·battery, but would not qualify as a capacity
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`15· ·detector?
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`16· · · · · · ·MR. BARROW:· Objection.· Form.
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`17· ·Objection.· Scope.
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`18· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I mean, so in a
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`19· ·hypothetical, you could come up with some
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`20· ·machine that performs a bunch of different
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`21· ·functions, one of which might do the stated
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`22· ·function of detecting a remaining capacity of
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`23· ·battery, but I don't know that someone of skill
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`24· ·in the art would necessarily consider that,
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`25· ·what the patent is talking about.
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`Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-6 Filed 12/09/19 Page 9 of 19 PageID #: 6703
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`·1· · · · · · · MICHAEL C. BROGIOLI, PH.D.
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`·2· · · · · · ·I mean, there is a certain
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`·3· ·application space and subject matter that the
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`Page 102
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`·4· ·patent contemplates.
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`·5· · · · · · ·BY MR. ZHOU:
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`·6· · · ·Q.· · So if I come up with -- if I
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`·7· ·invented a machine that detects the remaining
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`·8· ·capacity of a battery, how would you determine
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`·9· ·whether that qualifies as a capacity detector
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`10· ·or not?
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`11· · · · · · ·MR. BARROW:· Objection.· Form.
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`12· ·Objection.· Scope.
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`13· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· So I think two
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`14· ·different things we are talking about, but I
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`15· ·mean, if it does this function of detecting
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`16· ·remaining capacity of a battery, then it does
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`17· ·that function.
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`18· · · · · · ·If I am putting on the hat of a
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`19· ·person of skill in the art, I might not
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`20· ·seriously consider it as a potential structure
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`21· ·to putting -- if I kind of build things in the
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`22· ·patent though.
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`23· · · · · · ·BY MR. ZHOU:
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`24· · · ·Q.· · I see.· So there is this sort of a
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`25· ·commercial viability aspect of that, right? I
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`Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-6 Filed 12/09/19 Page 10 of 19 PageID #: 6704
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`Page 103
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`·1· · · · · · · MICHAEL C. BROGIOLI, PH.D.
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`·2· ·mean, if it's -- you have this giant machine,
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`·3· ·you may not be able to squeeze that into a
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`·4· ·notebook computer or a mobile phone, right?· Is
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`·5· ·that what you're referring to?
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`·6· · · ·A.· · I mean, I think that's one case, you
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`·7· ·know, if it was a machine the size of this
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`·8· ·room, it's not going to fit into a Smartphone.
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`·9· · · ·Q.· · Right.· But in terms of the scope of
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`10· ·the term itself, if the machine is capable of
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`11· ·detecting a remaining capacity of the detector,
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`12· ·you would consider that to be a capacity
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`13· ·detector, right?
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`14· · · · · · ·MR. BARROW:· Objection.· Form.
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`15· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't know that --
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`16· · · · · · ·MR. BARROW:· Objection.· Scope.
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`17· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't know that I
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`18· ·formed an opinion on that, but, I mean, if the
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`19· ·machine is -- if it detects a remaining
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`20· ·capacity of a battery, it detects a remaining
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`21· ·capacity of a battery.
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`22· · · · · · ·Again, I list three examples that I
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`23· ·think a person of skill in the art would
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`24· ·certainly understand as potential options given
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`25· ·the context.
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`Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-6 Filed 12/09/19 Page 11 of 19 PageID #: 6705
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`Page 104
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`·1· · · · · · · MICHAEL C. BROGIOLI, PH.D.
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`·2· · · · · · ·BY MR. ZHOU:
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`·3· · · ·Q.· · As you sit here today, you cannot
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`·4· ·think of any example of a structure that
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`·5· ·detects a remaining capacity of the battery,
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`·6· ·but would not be a capacity detector, right?
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`·7· · · · · · ·MR. BARROW:· Objection.· Form.
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`·8· ·Objection.· Scope.
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`·9· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yeah, I don't have an
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`10· ·opinion on that today.
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`11· · · · · · ·BY MR. ZHOU:
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`12· · · ·Q.· · Does the '794 patent limit the
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`13· ·capacity detector term to any particular class
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`14· ·of structure, for example, you know, digital
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`15· ·circuit or analog circuit or, you know, mixing
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`16· ·those circuits, is there any particular limit
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`17· ·to what a capacity detector could be?
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`18· · · · · · ·MR. BARROW:· Objection.· Form.
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`19· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't know that I
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`20· ·performed ab analysis to see if the term is
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`21· ·specifically precluded from being something.
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`22· · · · · · ·But again, you are talking about
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`23· ·hardware or hardware and some software to
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`24· ·perform the task.· I don't know if the patent
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`25· ·explicitly says one way or other on that
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`Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-6 Filed 12/09/19 Page 12 of 19 PageID #: 6706
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`·1· · · · · · · MICHAEL C. BROGIOLI, PH.D.
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`Page 105
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`·2· ·matter.
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`·3· · · · · · ·BY MR. ZHOU:
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`·4· · · ·Q.· · Sure.· So, Dr. Brogioli, you
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`·5· ·understand that we are taking this deposition
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`·6· ·in the context of claim construction, right?
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`·7· · · ·A.· · Correct.
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`·8· · · ·Q.· · And part of claim construction is to
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`·9· ·define a claim term and put some balance on the
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`10· ·claim term to decide what it includes or what
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`11· ·it excludes, right?
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`12· · · ·A.· · That's my understanding.
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`13· · · ·Q.· · So one potential bound you put on
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`14· ·the claim is described in your specification,
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`15· ·it has to detect a remaining capacity of a
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`16· ·battery, right?
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`17· · · · · · ·MR. BARROW:· Objection.· Form.
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`18· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Given its plain and
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`19· ·ordinary meaning, we are talking about the
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`20· ·terms definite enough that someone would know a
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`21· ·structure to do that function.
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`22· · · · · · ·BY MR. ZHOU:
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`23· · · ·Q.· · Right.· So if I bring in a
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`24· ·temperature detector that measures the
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`25· ·temperature but not the capacity level of a
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`Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-6 Filed 12/09/19 Page 13 of 19 PageID #: 6707
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`Page 110
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`·1· · · · · · · MICHAEL C. BROGIOLI, PH.D.
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`·2· ·well-understood in electrical engineering to --
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`·3· ·in context, to connote a variety of structures
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`·4· ·for performing a task, depending on, you know,
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`·5· ·the application of a task you are trying to do
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`·6· ·and I list a couple of different examples,
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`·7· ·like, motion detectors and voltage detectors
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`·8· ·and things like that.
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`·9· · · ·Q.· · Could a motion detector serve as a
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`10· ·capacity detector in the context of the '794
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`11· ·patent?
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`12· · · ·A.· · I haven't contemplated that up until
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`13· ·now.· I mean, if you could figure some way to
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`14· ·hack a motion detector to do other things than
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`15· ·a motion detector, it sounds like a fun project
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`16· ·I suppose.
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`17· · · ·Q.· · So a motion detector by itself,
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`18· ·without hacking it, you would not expect it to
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`19· ·be capable of serving as a capacity detector,
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`20· ·right?
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`21· · · ·A.· · I think this sounds like a
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`22· ·hypothetical.· I mean, I don't know what, you
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`23· ·know, motion detector we are talking about. I
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`24· ·am just using that as an example of different
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`25· ·types of structures performing a type of
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`Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-6 Filed 12/09/19 Page 14 of 19 PageID #: 6708
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`·1· · · · · · · MICHAEL C. BROGIOLI, PH.D.
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`Page 111
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`·2· ·detector.
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`·3· · · ·Q.· · Sure.· I think the only
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`·4· ·clarification I want to have here is, you list
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`·5· ·a number of other detectors.· I want to know if
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`·6· ·you think any of these detectors would fall
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`·7· ·within the scope of the capacity detector term.
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`·8· · · ·A.· · I haven't performed that analysis.
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`·9· ·That wasn't my intention for including those
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`10· ·examples.
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`11· · · ·Q.· · So would a full detector be capable
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`12· ·of serving as a capacity detector within the
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`13· ·context of the '794 patent?
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`14· · · ·A.· · I don't have an opinion on that.
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`15· · · ·Q.· · What about an infrared detector?
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`16· · · ·A.· · I don't have an opinion on that.
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`17· · · ·Q.· · Have you heard of the term
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`18· ·"demodulator?"
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`19· · · ·A.· · I have heard the term but I don't
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`20· ·know if I have heard it in the context of the
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`21· ·'794.· Maybe you'd have to refresh my memory.
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`22· · · ·Q.· · Do you know what a demodulator is?
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`23· · · ·A.· · In the context of what we are
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`24· ·talking about today, I don't think I have an
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`25· ·opinion on that, but I have heard it in, you
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`Page 112
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`·1· · · · · · · MICHAEL C. BROGIOLI, PH.D.
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`·2· ·know, it's used in different fields of
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`·3· ·engineering.
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`·4· · · ·Q.· · Have you heard of it referred to as
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`·5· ·a radio detector?
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`·6· · · · · · ·MR. BARROW:· Objection.· Scope.
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`·7· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't know.
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`·8· · · · · · ·BY MR. ZHOU:
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`·9· · · ·Q.· · Do you have an opinion one way or
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`10· ·another whether a demodulator could serve as a
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`11· ·capacity detector in the context of the '794
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`12· ·patent?
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`13· · · · · · ·MR. BARROW:· Objection.· Form.
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`14· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't have an
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`15· ·opinion on that today.· I'm not -- beyond you
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`16· ·just using the term "demodulator," I'm not
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`17· ·quite sure what the intended -- the details are
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`18· ·on that.
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`19· · · · · · ·BY MR. ZHOU:
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`20· · · ·Q.· · Is it the technology field different
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`21· ·from what was being contemplated by the '794
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`22· ·patent?
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`23· · · · · · ·MR. BARROW:· Objection.· Form.
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`24· ·Objection.· Scope.
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`25· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· What technology?
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`Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-6 Filed 12/09/19 Page 16 of 19 PageID #: 6710
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`Page 113
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`·1· · · · · · · MICHAEL C. BROGIOLI, PH.D.
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`·2· · · · · · ·BY MR. ZHOU:
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`·3· · · ·Q.· · The technology field relevant to a
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`·4· ·demodulator as compared to the technology field
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`·5· ·of the '794 patent.
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`·6· · · · · · ·MR. BARROW:· Objection.· Form.
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`·7· ·Objection.· Scope.
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`·8· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I'm not sure the
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`·9· ·demodulator's in a field, but I mean, you know,
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`10· ·it's used in maybe single processing or
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`11· ·wireless communication or things like that or
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`12· ·some applications of it.· I don't think I have
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`13· ·formed an opinion as to -- if that term itself
`
`14· ·is applicable to this claim term.
`
`15· · · · · · ·BY MR. ZHOU:
`
`16· · · ·Q.· · So as you sit here today, you don't
`
`17· ·have an opinion as to whether the term
`
`18· ·"demodulator" is applicable to the construction
`
`19· ·of the capacity detector term at issue in this
`
`20· ·case.
`
`21· · · · · · ·MR. BARROW:· Objection.· Form.
`
`22· ·Objection.· Scope.
`
`23· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Sitting here today, I
`
`24· ·don't have an opinion one way or the other.
`
`25· · · · · · ·BY MR. ZHOU:
`
`
`
`Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-6 Filed 12/09/19 Page 17 of 19 PageID #: 6711
`
`Page 114
`
`·1· · · · · · · MICHAEL C. BROGIOLI, PH.D.
`
`·2· · · ·Q.· · Do you know what a rectifier is?
`
`·3· · · ·A.· · So again, a similar term that is
`
`·4· ·used in various ways in engineering.· I don't
`
`·5· ·know -- I will stop there.
`
`·6· · · ·Q.· · You have heard of the term?
`
`·7· · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`·8· · · ·Q.· · In what context have you heard of
`
`·9· ·the term?
`
`10· · · ·A.· · Electrical engineering or circuit
`
`11· ·design or things like that.
`
`12· · · ·Q.· · Do you believe a rectifier can serve
`
`13· ·as a battery capacity detector in the context
`
`14· ·of the '794 patent?
`
`15· · · · · · ·MR. BARROW:· Objection.· Form.
`
`16· ·Objection.· Scope.
`
`17· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I haven't formed an
`
`18· ·opinion on that.
`
`19· · · · · · ·BY MR. ZHOU:
`
`20· · · ·Q.· · Do you believe the term "rectifier"
`
`21· ·is relevant to -- to the construction of
`
`22· ·capacity detector in the context of the '794
`
`23· ·patent?
`
`24· · · · · · ·MR. BARROW:· Objection.· Form.
`
`25· ·Objection.· Scope.
`
`
`
`Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-6 Filed 12/09/19 Page 18 of 19 PageID #: 6712
`
`Page 115
`
`·1· · · · · · · MICHAEL C. BROGIOLI, PH.D.
`
`·2· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't have an
`
`·3· ·opinion today if rectifier is relevant to that
`
`·4· ·claim construction term, beyond what's in my
`
`·5· ·declaration.
`
`·6· · · · · · ·Well, I don't talk about rectifier
`
`·7· ·in my declaration.
`
`·8· · · · · · ·BY MR. ZHOU:
`
`·9· · · ·Q.· · In Paragraph 29, among the examples
`
`10· ·you provided, the last one is a voltage
`
`11· ·detector.
`
`12· · · · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`13· · · ·A.· · Yes.
`
`14· · · ·Q.· · Could a voltage detector be used to
`
`15· ·serve the function of detecting a remaining
`
`16· ·capacity of the battery?
`
`17· · · ·A.· · I haven't formed an opinion on that
`
`18· ·as of today.
`
`19· · · ·Q.· · And by identifying voltage detector
`
`20· ·as an example here, you are not intending to
`
`21· ·opine that voltage detectors are a type of
`
`22· ·capacity detector, right?
`
`23· · · ·A.· · The voltage detector is included in
`
`24· ·29 with the intention of showing various
`
`25· ·structures for detecting things.· I haven't
`
`
`
`Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-6 Filed 12/09/19 Page 19 of 19 PageID #: 6713
`
`Page 116
`
`·1· · · · · · · MICHAEL C. BROGIOLI, PH.D.
`
`·2· ·formed an opinion as to whether the universe of
`
`·3· ·voltage detectors, I think you're asking if it
`
`·4· ·could be used in the patent that way.
`
`·5· · · ·Q.· · So the five examples -- four, I'm
`
`·6· ·sorry, strike that.
`
`·7· · · · · · ·The four examples you provide here,
`
`·8· ·motion detectors, photo detectors, infrared
`
`·9· ·detectors and voltage detectors, you are
`
`10· ·identifying these examples only to show that
`
`11· ·the term "detectors" can be used to refer to
`
`12· ·structures in other fields; is that generally
`
`13· ·correct?
`
`14· · · · · · ·MR. BARROW:· Objection.· Form.
`
`15· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I am saying that those
`
`16· ·are examples of detector and they are
`
`17· ·well-understood in electrical engineering
`
`18· ·contexts to -- and again, to continue, to
`
`19· ·connote a variety of structures.
`
`20· · · · · · ·BY MR. ZHOU:
`
`21· · · ·Q.· · But those structures may or may not
`
`22· ·be the same structures as was used for a
`
`23· ·capacity detector in the context of the '794
`
`24· ·patent, right?
`
`25· · · · · · ·MR. BARROW:· Objection.· Form.
`
`
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