Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-11 Filed 12/09/19 Page 1 of 16 PageID #: 6767
`Case 5:19-cv-00036—RWS Document 161-11 Filed 12/09/19 Page 1 of 16 PageID #: 6767
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`EXHIBIT J
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`EXHIBIT J
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`Case 5:19-cv-00036—RWS Document 161-11 Filed 12/09/19 Page 1 of 16 PageID #: 6767
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`EXHIBIT J
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`EXHIBIT J
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`Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-11 Filed 12/09/19 Page 2 of 16 PageID #: 6768
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`In the Matter Of:
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`MAXELL VS
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`APPLE, |NC.,
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`[412) 732—9387
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`.MOIr'orie Peters
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`DANIEL MENASCE, PHD
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`November 01, 2019
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`COURT REPORTING
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`Marjorie Peters Court Reporting
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`Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
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`marjorie@marjoriepeters.com
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`Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-11 Filed 12/09/19 Page 3 of 16 PageID #: 6769
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`·1· · · · · ·IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
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`·2· · · · · · FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS
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`·3· · · · · · · · · ·TEXARKANA DIVISION
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`·4
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`·5· MAXELL, LTD.,· · · · · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·6· · · · ·Plaintiff,· · · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )· Civil Action No.
`·7· · · · ·vs.· · · · · · · · · · )· 5:19-cv-00036-RWS
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·8· APPLE, INC.,· · · · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`·9· · · · ·Defendant.· · · · · · ·)
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`10
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · - - - - -
`11
`· · · ·VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF DANIEL A. MENASCE, PhD
`12
`· · · · · · ·Friday, November 1, 2019, 10:36 a.m.
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`14· · · · · · · · · O'Melveny & Myers LLP
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`15· · · · · · · · · · 1625 I Street, NW
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`16· · · · · · · · · · ·Washington, DC
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`17
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`18
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`22· Reported By: Marjorie Peters, FAPR, RMR, CRR
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`23· Job No:
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`24
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`25
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`Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-11 Filed 12/09/19 Page 4 of 16 PageID #: 6770
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`·1· human being manually entering the content that's
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`·2· going to be displayed at the electronic notice
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`·3· board.
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`·4· · · · · · · · · So I really don't know.· There's
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`·5· many different possibilities.
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`·6· · · ·Q.· · ·Okay.· As a person of ordinary skill in
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`·7· the art, does the term input have a particular
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`·8· meaning to you?
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`·9· · · ·A.· · ·No, just input by itself.· Input is a
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`10· very broad term.· Just input doesn't have a very
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`11· well defined meaning.
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`12· · · ·Q.· · ·I'm asking if it means something.· So in
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`13· electrical engineering/computer science context,
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`14· does input have a meaning?
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`15· · · ·A.· · ·So you're asking me outside of the
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`16· context of the '438 patent?
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`17· · · ·Q.· · ·Yes.· So let's say we were talking
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`18· before you started working on this case and I said,
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`19· what is an input, based on your, you know, knowledge
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`20· and your studies and your work, and --
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`21· · · ·A.· · ·So outside the context of this patent,
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`22· input is a function, a function that allows some
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`23· information to be fed into a system.· The very
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`24· general term.· It's a function.
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`25· · · ·Q.· · ·So when you see the term input, you --
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`Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-11 Filed 12/09/19 Page 5 of 16 PageID #: 6771
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`·1· it has some special meaning to you?
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`·2· · · ·A.· · ·Like I said, it's a very general term,
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`·3· not in the context of the '438 patent, the meaning
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`·4· would be a function.· Input is a function. A
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`·5· function that allows information to get into some
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`·6· system.· I mean, which is really very, very broad
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`·7· definition; but if you just say input, that's all
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`·8· that you would get.
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`·9· · · ·Q.· · ·Right.· So you said you have a mobile
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`10· phone?
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`11· · · ·A.· · ·I do.
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`12· · · ·Q.· · ·Is it a smartphone?
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`13· · · ·A.· · ·Smartphone.
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`14· · · ·Q.· · ·Does that have any type of input?
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`15· · · ·A.· · ·Yes.
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`16· · · · · · · · · MR. ZHOU:· Objection to form.
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`17· · · ·Q.· · ·What type of phone is it, by the way?
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`18· · · ·A.· · ·iPhone.
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`19· · · ·Q.· · ·iPhone.· What type of input does it
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`20· have?
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`21· · · ·A.· · ·It has a touch screen.
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`22· · · ·Q.· · ·So that's an example of a type of input?
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`23· · · ·A.· · ·That's an example of an input.
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`24· · · ·Q.· · ·And a person of ordinary skill in the
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`25· art would understand the touch screen is a type of
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`Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-11 Filed 12/09/19 Page 6 of 16 PageID #: 6772
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`·1· input; right?
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`·2· · · · · · · · · MR. ZHOU:· Objection to scope and
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`·3· objection to form.
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`·4· · · ·A.· · ·Well, it's -- at the time we had -- a
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`·5· person of ordinary skill in the art at that time
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`·6· would probably not have touch screens.· Touch
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`·7· screens, I believe, were not that prevalent at the
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`·8· time of the '438 patent.
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`·9· · · · · · · · · So, if you told that person that
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`10· touch screen is an input device, they may not have
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`11· understood that properly.
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`12· · · ·Q.· · ·Right.
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`13· · · · · · · · · What about a keyboard?
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`14· · · ·A.· · ·Keyboard, that's an example.
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`15· · · ·Q.· · ·What about a mouse?
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`16· · · ·A.· · ·That's another example --
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`17· · · ·Q.· · ·Voice recognition?
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`18· · · ·A.· · ·-- of an input device.
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`19· · · ·Q.· · ·Voice recognition?
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`20· · · ·A.· · ·Voice recognition.· That's another
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`21· example.
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`22· · · ·Q.· · ·So you're aware of a number of different
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`23· types of structures that could qualify as inputs
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`24· depending on the application?
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`25· · · ·A.· · ·Yes.· In fact there's a wide variety of
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`Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-11 Filed 12/09/19 Page 7 of 16 PageID #: 6773
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`·1· structures that could qualify, including eye
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`·2· movement recognition and many others.
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`·3· · · ·Q.· · ·Right.· And in Paragraph 79 of your
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`·4· report, you provide a number of examples of input
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`·5· units; right?
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`·6· · · ·A.· · ·Just a second, please.
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`·7· · · ·Q.· · ·Sure.
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`·8· · · ·A.· · ·Let me read the paragraph.
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`·9· · · ·Q.· · ·Sure.· And then the sentence that I'm
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`10· referring to is the third sentence in Paragraph 79.
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`11· · · ·A.· · ·Okay.
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`12· · · · · · · · · Okay.· I have read it.
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`13· · · ·Q.· · ·Did you have to do any special research
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`14· to come up with these examples of input units?
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`15· · · ·A.· · ·No.· These are examples that I know
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`16· about based on my experience.
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`17· · · ·Q.· · ·Right.· And a person of ordinary skill
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`18· would also have been aware of these potential --
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`19· · · ·A.· · ·At least some of them, yes.· Yes.
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`20· · · ·Q.· · ·Right.· And you state that some might be
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`21· more appropriate than others depending on the
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`22· application or the device or product that you're
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`23· talking about; right?
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`24· · · ·A.· · ·Right.· Some inputs are more appropriate
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`25· to some applications than others, yes.
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`Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-11 Filed 12/09/19 Page 8 of 16 PageID #: 6774
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`·1· · · ·Q.· · ·All right.· All right.· So let's go to
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`·2· Paragraph 80.
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`·3· · · ·A.· · ·Mm-hmm.
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`·4· · · ·Q.· · ·So you have a section of the '438 patent
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`·5· that you cite here.· It's column 3, line 61 to 67.
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`·6· This is at the bottom of page 29.· Do you see that?
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`·7· · · ·A.· · ·I do.
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`·8· · · ·Q.· · ·And this pertains to the input/output
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`·9· unit 103.· Do you see that?
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`10· · · ·A.· · ·I do.
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`11· · · ·Q.· · ·So you bolded certain language here, and
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`12· you've left certain language not bolded.
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`13· · · · · · · · · What you excluded was the
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`14· input/output unit is not limited to the liquid
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`15· crystal display device and the ten-keyboard; right?
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`16· · · ·A.· · ·It's part of the cite, yes; however, the
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`17· input/output unit 103 is not limited to the liquid
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`18· crystal display device and the ten-keyboard.· Yes.
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`19· · · ·Q.· · ·A person of ordinary skill in the art
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`20· looking at the claims and looking at the patent and
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`21· obviously having the benefit of their knowledge and
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`22· experience, would they also consider other potential
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`23· inputs or input units?
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`24· · · · · · · · · MR. ZHOU:· Objection to form.
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`25· · · ·A.· · ·Yes.· Well, okay, so let me explain
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`Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-11 Filed 12/09/19 Page 9 of 16 PageID #: 6775
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`·1· you will see there's a button, 1102, which says,
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`·2· write the comment.
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`·3· · · · · · · · · So I was not able to identify any
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`·4· other comment that's not written.
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`·5· · · ·Q.· · ·Okay.· So your opinion that the comment
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`·6· must be written is based on the specific embodiments
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`·7· disclosed in the '438 patent?
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`·8· · · · · · · · · MR. ZHOU:· Objection to form.
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`·9· · · ·A.· · ·That's the only type of comment that
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`10· they provide.· And as I said before, comment is not
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`11· a term of art.· So for example, if you talk about
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`12· source code comments, then a person of ordinary
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`13· skill in the art would understand that's a very
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`14· different thing from the comments that are being,
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`15· you know, alluded to in this specification.· So the
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`16· specification is very clear about comments.
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`17· · · ·Q.· · ·So --
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`18· · · ·A.· · ·And I'm sorry.· Just to complement here,
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`19· what they also say is that these comments are
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`20· responsive to contributed content.
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`21· · · ·Q.· · ·Right.· Right.
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`22· · · · · · · · · Is there any requirement in terms of
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`23· how much -- how many characters needs to be written,
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`24· or anything like that?
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`25· · · ·A.· · ·I was not able to see that in the
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`Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-11 Filed 12/09/19 Page 10 of 16 PageID #: 6776
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`·1· specification.· I may have missed, but I don't
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`·2· remember seeing any limits.
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`·3· · · ·Q.· · ·The way you're interpreting comment, is
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`·4· that sort of the lay person's understanding of
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`·5· comment, like any person on the street would
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`·6· understand the term?
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`·7· · · · · · · · · MR. ZHOU:· Objection to form.
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`·8· · · ·A.· · ·As I said before, comment is not a term
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`·9· of art.· So it depends on the context.· You have to
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`10· qualify what you mean by comment.
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`11· · · ·Q.· · ·Right.· So you're saying this is not --
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`12· you wouldn't need a -- an electrical engineering
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`13· major or an engineer or an engineering Professor to
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`14· tell you what comment means; right?· That that's a
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`15· generic term that a lay person would understand,
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`16· right?
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`17· · · · · · · · · MR. ZHOU:· Objection to form.
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`18· · · ·A.· · ·Well, again, if you ask -- if I ask you
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`19· to comment on a book, you would have to read that
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`20· book and write a comment.· But that's very different
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`21· from a comment on a source code.· That's very
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`22· different from how a comment is used here. A
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`23· comment is very well defined in the specification.
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`24· · · ·Q.· · ·Would a lay person understand that the
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`25· comment must be written?
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`Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-11 Filed 12/09/19 Page 11 of 16 PageID #: 6777
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`·1· · · ·A.· · ·I'm sorry.· Say again.
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`·2· · · ·Q.· · ·Would a lay person have an understanding
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`·3· that a comment must be written in order for it to
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`·4· qualify as a comment?
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`·5· · · ·A.· · ·Are you talking within the scope of this
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`·6· patent, or outside?
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`·7· · · ·Q.· · ·I'm just saying generally, because you
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`·8· said it's not a term of art, so --
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`·9· · · ·A.· · ·It's not a term.· Right.
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`10· · · ·Q.· · ·Right.
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`11· · · ·A.· · ·I mean generally, generally again, not
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`12· in the context of this patent.· A comment could be
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`13· verbal.· It could be anything, right, but that's
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`14· irrelevant.· That's not relevant to trying to
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`15· construe a specific claim term, adding a comment to
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`16· contribute data.· Of course, in this context it's
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`17· not verbal, right?
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`18· · · ·Q.· · ·So when you're talking about the
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`19· context, you're talking about the context of the
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`20· '438 patent; right?
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`21· · · ·A.· · ·Yes.
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`22· · · ·Q.· · ·Is that context narrower than how a lay
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`23· person would understand the word comment?
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`24· · · ·A.· · ·Yes, it is, because if you asked a lay
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`25· person on the street what is a comment, you would
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`Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-11 Filed 12/09/19 Page 12 of 16 PageID #: 6778
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`·1· get all sorts of answers, right?· That's a very
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`·2· broad term.
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`·3· · · ·Q.· · ·Right.· So how does the '438 patent
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`·4· narrow the scope of comment?
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`·5· · · ·A.· · ·Well, Claim 2 -- let me read Claim 2 to
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`·6· you.
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`·7· · · · · · · · · Okay.· So it says, "An information
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`·8· processing terminal according to Claim 1 wherein
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`·9· said information processing terminal has a function
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`10· of contributing data to said display apparatus, and
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`11· a function of adding a comment to contributed data."
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`12· · · · · · · · · So that's very specific.· So in
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`13· fact, if you look at Figure 11, you will see that
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`14· Figure 11 on the specifications is really what
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`15· provides support to Claim 2, because Claim 2 talks
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`16· about contributing data, which is button 1101 in
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`17· Figure 11.· It also talks about adding a comment to
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`18· contribute to data, which is button 1102 of the same
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`19· figure.
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`20· · · · · · · · · So that's how it narrows it.· It's
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`21· not any comment without a context, but it's saying
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`22· that the information processing terminal has these
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`23· two functions.
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`24· · · ·Q.· · ·So in formulating your opinion on adding
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`25· a comment to contributing data or contributed data,
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`Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-11 Filed 12/09/19 Page 13 of 16 PageID #: 6779
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`·1· you said you relied on Figure 13, corresponding
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`·2· disclosure.· So you relied on that embodiment;
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`·3· right?
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`·4· · · ·A.· · ·I relied on Figure 13; I relied on
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`·5· Figure 10; I relied on Figure 11; and the
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`·6· corresponding text.
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`·7· · · ·Q.· · ·What else did you rely on?
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`·8· · · ·A.· · ·As I said, the claim language.· Then I
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`·9· looked at the specification.· Of course, every time
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`10· I have to look at the whole specification, but the
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`11· most important parts of the specification that very
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`12· clearly indicate what they mean by adding a comment
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`13· to the contribute data comes from Figure 13, Figure
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`14· 10 and Figure 11.
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`15· · · ·Q.· · ·Does the claim language say anything
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`16· about whether the comment must be written?
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`17· · · ·A.· · ·Okay.· It says, "Adding a comment."
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`18· Right.· Now, if you look at the description of these
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`19· figures, you will see that they're talking about
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`20· writing a comment.
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`21· · · ·Q.· · ·Right.
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`22· · · ·A.· · ·There's no description that would
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`23· indicate that this could be otherwise.
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`24· · · ·Q.· · ·If it had said something like adding a
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`25· comment -- well, strike that.
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`Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-11 Filed 12/09/19 Page 14 of 16 PageID #: 6780
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`·1· · · · · · · · · If the specification had said
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`·2· something like, adding a comment or making a comment
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`·3· instead of writing a comment, would your opinion on
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`·4· the proper construction for adding a comment to
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`·5· contribute to data be different?
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`·6· · · ·A.· · ·Well, I have not analyzed that, because
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`·7· you're -- you're giving me a hypothetical, which is
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`·8· based on something that's not in the specification.
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`·9· And I would have to look into that.
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`10· · · ·Q.· · ·I think you said before that a lay
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`11· person wouldn't necessarily understand a comment to
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`12· be limited to written comments; right?
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`13· · · ·A.· · ·Without getting to the context of this,
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`14· right.· But comment here has a very well defined
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`15· meaning.
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`16· · · ·Q.· · ·Right.· I'm asking the guy on the
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`17· street.· Someone comes up to you, as I'm sure they
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`18· always do, and says, Dr. Menasce, what does comment
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`19· mean.· You wouldn't tell them that it has to be
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`20· written; right?
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`21· · · ·A.· · ·I would say comment in which context.
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`22· That would be my answer.
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`23· · · ·Q.· · ·Right.· And you would only respond that
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`24· it must be written if there's some type of
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`25· indication that it must be written; right?
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`Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-11 Filed 12/09/19 Page 15 of 16 PageID #: 6781
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`·1· · · ·A.· · ·Well, if they tell me about source code
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`·2· comment, I would say, well, that's typically
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`·3· written, right --
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`·4· · · ·Q.· · ·Right.
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`·5· · · ·A.· · ·-- because source code is written.
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`·6· · · ·Q.· · ·Right.
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`·7· · · ·A.· · ·Now, so depending on the context,
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`·8· comment has many meanings.· But that's not relevant
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`·9· to this specification.
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`10· · · ·Q.· · ·Right.· So what I'm saying is, and
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`11· obviously, if they showed you Figure 10 and said,
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`12· okay, in this context, must the comment be written,
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`13· would you say, yeah, that must be -- that type of a
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`14· comment is a written comment?
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`15· · · ·A.· · ·Well, it's not the figures.· The figures
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`16· are supported by text in the specification.· So the
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`17· text in the specification is very clear that the
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`18· comments are written.· I have not seen in the
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`19· specification any evidence that comments are not
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`20· written.
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`21· · · ·Q.· · ·Right.· There's no embodiment where it
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`22· says that they're just added or made or -- something
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`23· to that effect?
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`24· · · ·A.· · ·I have not seen any embodiment in which
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`25· comments are not written, comments are oral, verbal,
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`Case 5:19-cv-00036-RWS Document 161-11 Filed 12/09/19 Page 16 of 16 PageID #: 6782
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`·1· you know.· I have not seen any embodiment of that.
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`·2· · · ·Q.· · ·Is your opinion regarding the proper
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`·3· construction of adding a comment to contributed data
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`·4· based solely on the embodiments disclosed in the
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`·5· specification of the '438 patent?
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`·6· · · ·A.· · ·All my opinions are based on the claim
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`·7· language, the entire specification, then the file
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`·8· history and the other documents that I allude in
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`·9· Paragraph 4.
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`10· · · ·Q.· · ·Is there anything specific from the file
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`11· history that you relied on in arriving at your
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`12· conclusion that the comment referenced in adding a
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`13· comment to contribute to data must be written?
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`14· · · ·A.· · ·No.· I looked at the file history, but I
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`15· didn't find anything that was relevant to the claim
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`16· construction.
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`17· · · ·Q.· · ·All right.· So it was limited to the
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`18· claim language and the specification for this
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`19· specific term?
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`20· · · ·A.· · ·Basically -- for that specific term.
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`21· · · ·Q.· · ·Right.· In terms of the specification,
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`22· you relied on the disclosed embodiments; right?
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`23· · · ·A.· · ·The whole specification.
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`24· · · ·Q.· · ·Right.· So the specific figures, the
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`25· corresponding disclosure?
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`
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