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`CONFIDENTIAL, UNCERTIFIED, UNEDITED, ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT
`------------
`P R O C E E D I N G S
`December 15, 2021, 9:38 a.m. PST
`------------
`THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now
`on the record. Today's date is
`December 15th, 2021, and the time is
`9:39 a.m. Pacific Standard Time. This
`is the deposition of Neil Siegel in
`the matter of AGIS Software
`Development, LLC versus Uber
`Technologies, Inc., filed in the
`United States District Court for the
`Eastern District of Texas, Marshall
`Division. Case number is
`2:21-CV-00026-JRG.
`This deposition is taking place
`via webview conference with all
`participants attending remotely. My
`name is Matthew Greenhalgh. I'm the
`videographer from TransPerfect. Would
`counsel on conference please identify
`yourselves and state whom you
`represent beginning with the
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`UNCERTIFIED, UNEDITED, ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT
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`DEPOSITION OF: Neil G. Siegel, Ph.D.
`
`12-15-2021
`
`AGIS v Uber
`
`IMPORTANT NOTICE
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`THIS IS AN UNCERTIFIED DRAFT TRANSCRIPTION.
`
`PLEASE DO NOT QUOTE FROM THIS DRAFT IN
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`PLEADINGS OR ELSEWHERE. THE CERTIFIED
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`TRANSCRIPT IS THE ONLY OFFICIAL RECORD WHICH
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`MAY BE RELIED UPON FOR VERBATIM CITATIONS OF
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`TESTIMONY.
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`
`
` This interactive realtime service is
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`provided to you solely as a litigation aid
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`and is in no way an official transcript.
`
`This realtime transcription has not been
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`proofread. It is an uncorrected realtime
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`translation. There may be mistranslated or
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`untranslated text, misspelled proper names,
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`nonsensical word combinations and/or
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`occasional reporter's notes. Page numbers
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` This realtime computerized transcript is
`a service for your instantaneous review of
`the proceedings and may not be quoted in any
`pleadings or for any other purpose, may not
`be filed with any court, and may not be
`distributed to any other party. This
`Certified Realtime Reporter makes no
`representations regarding the accuracy and
`completeness of this realtime transcript and
`is not responsible for the misuse of this
`realtime draft transcript by anyone.
`
` The completed, certified transcript and
`certified copies shall be delivered upon
`completion in standard delivery time, unless
`alternate expedited arrangements are made
`with the reporter.
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`questioning attorney.
`MR. RUBINO: Vincent Rubino for
`the law firm Fabricant LLP for the
`plaintiff AGIS.
`MR. IWAHASHI: Ryan Iwahashi,
`Gibson Dunn, on behalf of Uber.
`THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The court
`reporter today is Debbie Dibble,
`representing TransPerfect. The court
`reporter will now swear in the
`witness.
`
`------------
`NEIL SIEGEL, Ph.D.,
`having been duly sworn,
`testified as follows:
`------------
`EXAMINATION
`------------
`BY MR. RUBINO:
`Q.
`Good afternoon, sir. Can you
`please state your full name for the record?
`A.
`Neil Gilbert Siegel.
`Q.
`And Mr. Siegel, are you working
`with one of the parties in this case?
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`I could find one or more if you give me the
`time. I talked about, for example, the login
`process, and the server registration -- other
`places I talk about the server registration
`process, which allows the -- involves the
`exchange of IP addresses. Several places in
`here I talk about messaging processes, which
`uses those IP addresses to route those
`messages.
`
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`done by IP. There are other protocols, of
`course, but all FBCB2 communications used IP.
`Q.
`Including the voice
`communications?
`A.
`Including the voice
`communications, yeah.
`Q.
`So it's fair to say all of the
`voice communications used by FBCB2 were over
`IP; correct?
`A.
`Yes. If you turn back to
`page 61 of my report. Tell me when you're
`there.
`Q.
`Okay.
`A.
`Do you see the little diagram
`about a third of the way down the page?
`Q.
`Okay.
`A.
`So do you see the little
`diamond-shaped box in the center of that
`diagram that has the letters INC?
`Q.
`Okay.
`A.
`That box stands for internet
`controller. That is an IP router. And you
`see that the applique FBCB2 computer talks
`directly to that router and that router is
`DRAFT-86
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`But the server registration and
`the logon process is explicitly are discussed
`and they both involve the exchange of IP
`addresses.
`Q.
`So where is that in paragraphs
`132 through 138?
`A.
`Well, at the beginning of
`paragraph 136 says: Also as explained above
`with respect to element six, communication
`between participants with FBCB2 is
`established and accomplished by the use of IP
`protocol. And, of course, a person of
`ordinary skill in the art would understand
`that to establish and accomplish
`communications by using the IP protocol
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`what talks to the actual communication
`devices, as is very common in IP
`communication systems. So FBCB2 only talks
`to devices by talking through that controller
`and it does that communication via IP.
`Q.
`You'd like you to take a look
`at paragraph 132 of your report.
`A.
`1-3-2. Uh-huh. I see it.
`Q.
`So for this limitation you have
`set forth as 7, which is exchanging IP
`addresses using SMS. Do you see that?
`A.
`Uh-huh.
`Q.
`Are you saying that that
`limitation is met explicitly by FBCB2 or
`rendered obvious by FBCB2?
`A.
`Let me read it again.
`[Document review.]
` From FBCB2 explicitly meets
`that is what I'm saying.
`Q.
`(BY MR. RUBINO) So I just
`don't see it in her, but where are you saying
`that FBCB2 exchanges IP addresses using SMS
`or other digital messages?
`A.
`Several places in the report.
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`involves the exchange of IP addresses.
`Q.
`It involves the exchange of IP
`addresses over SMS?
`A.
`Your claim limitations says
`using SMS or other digital message format.
`Q.
`So what's the other digital
`message you're relying on in paragraph 136?
`A.
`Hang on for a second. Let me
`find the discussion.
`There's a discussion that
`commences with paragraph 83 on page 45 that
`talks about the FBCB2 short message service.
`Q.
`I'm asking you, in your
`description of this limitation, where do you
`say that IP addresses are exchanged over SMS
`or other digital messages?
`A.
`It says right here: Establish
`and accomplish by use of the IP protocol.
`That is a -- and there's another place in
`here where I talk about the exact message
`formats we use.
`Q.
`So, in other words, what you're
`saying is this limitation reduces to using
`the IP protocol. If you've done, that you've
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`met this limitation. Is that what you're
`saying?
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`Which transmits data to other
`network participants using IP. And I talk
`about that in many places in the document as
`well. For example, when I talk about
`situational awareness distribution, I talk
`about that FBCB2 report their position to
`their server and the server bundles those up
`and periodically, according to some rules
`based on time and motion, transmits bundles
`of those position reports to all of the units
`that it serves and to other servers. And
`that's all accomplished by IP.
`Q.
`So you have no problem reading
`and understanding this limitation and
`understanding how it is met by IP
`communication using digital messages. Is
`that fair?
`A.
`limitation.
`Q.
`And it's your understanding
`that this claim limitation that you've called
`7 is met by exchanging IP addresses, using a
`digital message format, sending those IP
`addresses to the server, and communicating on
`DRAFT-92
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`Yes, I understand this
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`MR. IWAHASHI: Object to the
`
`form.
`A.
`No, I talk about in other
`places the message format that we use.
`In 137, there's a whole
`discussion of the message formats, which
`would appear to exactly meet the limitation
`phrase "other digital message format." In
`one 37, I exactly discuss the message formats
`and I even have a citation that shows the
`list of these short messages.
`Q.
`(BY MR. RUBINO) How is that
`exchanging IP addresses?
`A.
`It's the format of the messages
`that could include the IP address as the data
`that's being exchanged.
`Q.
`So to meet this limitation that
`you've identified as limitation 7, it's your
`opinion that all you need to do is to have a
`digital message format that includes the IP
`address and you've met it. Is that fair?
`MR. IWAHASHI: Object to the
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`form.
`A.
`No, you have to actually
`exchange those IP addresses.
`Q.
`(BY MR. RUBINO) Is that it?
`Does it require anything else?
`A.
`Using SMS or another digital --
`I mean, I could read the limitation to you,
`right? Establish via IP, et cetera,
`et cetera. What's required are all the words
`in limitation 7.
`Q.
`So what is required -- explain
`to me like you're going to explain to a jury,
`what is required to meet this limitation.
`A.
`You have to exchange IP
`addresses using SMS or another digital
`format, and I addressed both of those.
`Among network participant
`users, so that communication between
`participants is established by IP. And I
`talked about that.
`Or transmission of a network
`participant's IP network of a server, and I
`talk about that in many places in this
`document.
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`those IP addresses; right?
`A.
`And all of the other words that
`you have in that limitation, yes.
`Q.
`You know, with regard to second
`to last line, limitation 7, do you see where
`it says: Which then transmits data to other
`network participants using the IP address
`previously?
`A.
`Q.
`
`Yes, I see that.
`Which IP address is that?
`MR. IWAHASHI: Object to the
`
`form.
`Q.
`(BY MR. RUBINO) In other
`words, is it the server's IP address or the
`device's IP address?
`A.
`It's the client's IP address.
`Q.
`So, in other words, that's the
`client's IP address that was previously
`provided to the server over the digital
`message; is that right?
`A.
`Right. This talks about the
`server which transmits data, and the server
`transmitting data is transmitting data to
`clients, or as I said before and I said also
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`in the report, it might be sending that data
`to other servers in the configuration
`registration where there's more than one
`server.
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`But generally, when a server
`transmits something, it is thought of
`primarily as transmitting to its served
`clients.
`Q.
`And so you have no problem
`reading that and understanding that
`limitation and explaining it to a jury. Is
`that what you're saying?
`A.
`Correct.
`MR. RUBINO: I'm about to move
`on to a different subject. Would you
`like to take another break?
`THE WITNESS: That would be
`
`swell.
`
`THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now
`going off the record. The time is
`12:06 p.m.
`(Recess taken, 12:06 p.m. to
`1:03 p.m. PST)
`THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now
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`Q.
`Do you see where you say: For
`example, if a command sends an order using
`FBCB2 to a subordinate, the command requires
`the subordinate to review and respond. The
`list of response will include "I will
`comply," "I cannot comply"? That's
`paragraph 176.
`A.
`Right, I see that as the last
`sentence on the page 92.
`Q.
`So you don't have any citations
`for that. Am I missing that? There's no
`citations in that paragraph, right?
`A.
`There's no citations in that
`paragraph. I believe the same thing is
`discussed in other places and there might be
`a citation. But there's no citation in this
`paragraph, I agree with that.
`Q.
`Bear with me for just one
`minute.
`
`So for the next limitation
`which you have listed as 7, do you see
`paragraph 182?
`A.
`Yes, sir, I do.
`Q.
`In the middle of the paragraph
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`you say -- it's about halfway through, you
`say: There is a permanent indicator of the
`number of items waiting in the message cue.
`Does the message cue include
`any messages to a user of FBCB2?
`A.
`As is explained here and in
`other places, there are four cues called
`flash, immediate, priority, and routine,
`which are military terms. And there are four
`counters at the top of the screen, each
`corresponding to one of those categories,
`saying how many messages are waiting in each
`of those priorities. A message that requires
`a response would be flash or immediate, and
`would show up in one of those cues. And the
`military operators are trained to see that,
`to respond to the sound that gets played in
`their headset, and to deal with those items
`promptly.
`
`By the way, earlier in this
`paragraph, lines 3 and 4, you see I actually
`provide a citation here for the will comply
`and can't comply.
`Q.
`So when the user gets this
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`CONFIDENTIAL, UNCERTIFIED, UNEDITED, ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT
`back on the record. The time is
`1:03 p.m.
`Q.
`(BY MR. RUBINO) Good
`afternoon, sir. How are you?
`A.
`Good afternoon. Hope you had a
`good lunch.
`Q.
`So, before the break we were
`discussing the '724 patent. Do you recall
`that?
`
`A.
`
`'724 patent.
`Okay, I have it here.
`Q.
`And for the next patent you
`have in your analysis, you look at the '970
`patent; right?
`A.
`I'm sorry, I'm not quite
`following where you are.
`Q.
`So we were looking at the '724
`patent. The next patent in your analysis in
`your report is the '970 patent; right?
`A.
`Yeah, '970 starts on page 87,
`according to the table of contents here.
`Q.
`So I want you to take a look at
`page 92 of your report.
`A.
`I'm there.
`
`