Case 2:17-cv-00513-JRG Document 273-7 Filed 01/09/19 Page 1 of 15 PageID #: 18209
`Case 2:17-cv-00513-JRG Document 273-7 Filed 01/09/19 Page 1 of 15 PageID #: 18209
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`EXHIBIT 8
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`EXHIBIT 8
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`Case 2:17-cv-00513-JRG Document 273-7 Filed 01/09/19 Page 1 of 15 PageID #: 18209
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`EXHIBIT 8
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`EXHIBIT 8
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`Case 2:17-cv-00513-JRG Document 273-7 Filed 01/09/19 Page 2 of 15 PageID #: 18210
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`DR. NEIL G. SIEGEL - 11/14/2018DR. NEIL G. SIEGEL - 11/14/2018
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`·1· · · · · · · ·UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
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`·2· · · · · · · CENTRAL DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA
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`·4· ·AGIS SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT LLC,· · )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·) Civil Action No.
`·5· · · · · · · · · · ·Plaintiff,· · · ) 2:17-cv-513-JRG
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·) (LEAD CASE)
`·6· · · · · · · vs.· · · · · · · · · · ) Civil Action No.
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·) 2:17-cv-516-JRG
`·7· ·APPLE, INC.,· · · · · · · · · · · ) Pages 1 to 237
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·8· · · · · · · · · · ·Defendant.· · · )
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`14· · · · · · ·DEPOSITION OF DR. NEIL G. SIEGEL
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`15· · · · · · · · · · · · ·TAKEN ON
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`16· · · · · · · ·WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 14, 2018
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`24· ·Reported by:· PHILIP D. NORRIS
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`25· · · · · · · · ·CSR NO. 4980
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`Case 2:17-cv-00513-JRG Document 273-7 Filed 01/09/19 Page 3 of 15 PageID #: 18211
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`DR. NEIL G. SIEGEL - 11/14/2018DR. NEIL G. SIEGEL - 11/14/2018
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`Page 2
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`·1· · · · · · Deposition of Dr. Neil G. Siegel, taken on
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`·2· ·behalf of Plaintiff, at 3635 Fashion Way, Torrance,
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`·3· ·California, on Wednesday, November 14, 2018, at 9:23
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`·4· ·a.m., before Philip D. Norris, CSR No. 4980,
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`·5· ·pursuant to Notice.
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`·6
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`·7· ·APPEARANCES:
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`·8
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`·9· ·FOR THE PLAINTIFF:
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`10· · · · · · BROWN RUDNICK
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`11· · · · · · BY:· VINCENT RUBINO, ESQ.
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`12· · · · · · · · ·ENRIQUE W. ITURRALDE, ESQ.
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`13· · · · · · 7 Times Square
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`14· · · · · · New York, New York 10036
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`15· · · · · · (212) 209-4800
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`16· · · · · · Email:· Vrubino@brownrudnick.com
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`17· · · · · · · · · · Eiturralde@brownrudnick.com
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`18· ·FOR THE DEFENDANT APPLE, INC.:
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`19· · · · · · DESMARAIS, LLP
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`20· · · · · · BY:· KATHRYN BI, ESQ.
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`21· · · · · · · · ·AMEET A. MODI, ESQ.
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`22· · · · · · 230 Park Avenue
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`23· · · · · · New York, New York 10169
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`24· · · · · · (212) 351-3406
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`25· · · · · · Email:· Amodi@desmaraisllp.com
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`Epiq Court Reporting Solutions - New YorkEpiq Court Reporting Solutions - New York
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`Case 2:17-cv-00513-JRG Document 273-7 Filed 01/09/19 Page 4 of 15 PageID #: 18212
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`DR. NEIL G. SIEGEL - 11/14/2018DR. NEIL G. SIEGEL - 11/14/2018
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`Page 3
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`·1· ·APPEARANCES:
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`·2
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`·3· ·FOR THE DEFENDANT HTC CORPORATION:
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`·4· · · · · · PERKINS COIE
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`·5· · · · · · BY:· MIGUEL J. BOMBACH, ESQ.
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`·6· · · · · · 11988 El Camino Real, Suite 350
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`·7· · · · · · San Diego, California 92130
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`·8· · · · · · Email:· Mbombach@perkinscoie.com
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`·9· ·FOR THE DEFENDANT LG ELECTRONICS:
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`10· · · · · · ARNOLD & PORTER
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`11· · · · · · BY:· JUSTIN J. CHI, ESQ.
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`12· · · · · · 777 South Figueroa Street, 44th Floor
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`13· · · · · · Los Angeles, California 90017
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`14· · · · · · (213) 243-4030
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`15· · · · · · Email: Justin.chi@arnoldporter.com
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`16· ·ALSO PRESENT:
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`17· · · · · · THE VIDEOGRAPHER:· RENEE MAYFIELD
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`Case 2:17-cv-00513-JRG Document 273-7 Filed 01/09/19 Page 5 of 15 PageID #: 18213
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`DR. NEIL G. SIEGEL - 11/14/2018DR. NEIL G. SIEGEL - 11/14/2018
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`Page 192
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`·1· ·be more parsimonious of battery life than an Intel
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`·2· ·processor would be.
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`·3· · · · Q.· So just to confirm, you're not relying on
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`·4· ·anything about the CDA product in the context of
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`·5· ·your report; right?
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`·6· · · · A.· The CDA product, as you defined it here,
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`·7· ·clearly says that it was built by General Dynamics
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`·8· ·Decision Systems.· General Dynamics Decision Systems
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`·9· ·makes the CDA.· That's not our product.
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`10· · · · Q.· So I'd like to ask you about -- going back
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`11· ·to how you implemented this distributed environment
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`12· ·for FBCB2 where you had different devices that could
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`13· ·fill the role of what you call the server.· Okay?
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`14· · · · A.· Uh-huh, okay.
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`15· · · · Q.· And so is it fair to say that any device
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`16· ·running FBCB2 that was communicating with the server
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`17· ·had to know the IP address of that server?· Is that
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`18· ·fair?· Let me withdraw the question.· I could ask it
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`19· ·a different way.
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`20· · · · · · So in the context of a server in the FBCB2
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`21· ·system, let's assume that one unit is designated as
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`22· ·the server.· Call it unit one.· Okay?
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`23· · · · A.· Uh-huh.
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`24· · · · Q.· So you follow me so far; right?
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`25· · · · A.· Uh-huh.
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`Case 2:17-cv-00513-JRG Document 273-7 Filed 01/09/19 Page 6 of 15 PageID #: 18214
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`DR. NEIL G. SIEGEL - 11/14/2018DR. NEIL G. SIEGEL - 11/14/2018
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`Page 193
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`·1· · · · Q.· Now, if you have a second unit that is not
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`·2· ·the server and it's talking to the first unit, would
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`·3· ·that second unit need to know the IP address of the
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`·4· ·first unit that is acting as the server?
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`·5· · · · · · MS. BI:· Objection to form.
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`·6· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· The soldier would not need to
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`·7· ·know the IP address.
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`·8· ·BY MR. RUBINO:
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`·9· · · · Q.· Not asking you about the soldier, I'm
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`10· ·asking you about the software.· Wouldn't the
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`11· ·software need to know the IP address?
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`12· · · · A.· Yes.
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`13· · · · Q.· And so is it fair to say that at least all
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`14· ·of the devices acting as servers or potentially
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`15· ·acting as servers, their software would need to have
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`16· ·access to the IP address of the other units who may
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`17· ·be acting as servers?
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`18· · · · · · MS. BI:· Objection to form.
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`19· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Say that again.
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`20· ·BY MR. RUBINO:
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`21· · · · Q.· So the server could change, as you said;
`21· · · · Q.· So the server could change, as you said;
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`22· ·right?
`22· ·right?
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`23· · · · A.· Uh-huh.
`23· · · · A.· Uh-huh.
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`24· · · · Q.· And so when the server would change, the24· · · · Q.· And so when the server would change, the
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`25· ·software on any other device would need to know that
`25· ·software on any other device would need to know that
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`Case 2:17-cv-00513-JRG Document 273-7 Filed 01/09/19 Page 7 of 15 PageID #: 18215
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`DR. NEIL G. SIEGEL - 11/14/2018DR. NEIL G. SIEGEL - 11/14/2018
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`Page 194
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`·1· ·server's IP address; right?1· ·server's IP address; right?
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`·2· · · · · · MS. BI:· Objection to form.
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`·3· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Yes.
`·3· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Yes.
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`·4· ·BY MR. RUBINO:
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`·5· · · · Q.· And so because the server could change to
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`·6· ·any one of those units capable of being a server,
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`·7· ·the units could all have access in the software to
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`·8· ·the IP address of the other units; correct?
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`·9· · · · A.· Say that again.
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`10· · · · Q.· So because the server could change --
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`11· · · · A.· Right.
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`12· · · · Q.· -- and because the server could become any
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`13· ·one of the other units, each unit would have access
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`14· ·in the software to the IP address of the other
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`15· ·units --
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`16· · · · · · MS. BI:· Objection to form.
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`17· ·BY MR. RUBINO:
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`18· · · · Q.· -- right?
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`19· · · · A.· There is a complicated protocol that
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`20· ·allowed units to discover each other that at the
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`21· ·beginning of the discovery process they did not have
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`22· ·to know the IP addresses of anybody else, but by the
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`23· ·end of the discovery process they had discovered the
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`24· ·IP addresses, and that's how we originally set up a
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`25· ·network, and then once we had a network, we could
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`Case 2:17-cv-00513-JRG Document 273-7 Filed 01/09/19 Page 8 of 15 PageID #: 18216
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`DR. NEIL G. SIEGEL - 11/14/2018DR. NEIL G. SIEGEL - 11/14/2018
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`Page 195
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`·1· ·use the existing path to transmit the information
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`·2· ·about changed paths.· That's approximately how it
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`·3· ·worked.· But nobody had to be preprogrammed with a
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`·4· ·set of IP addresses or anything like that.
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`·5· · · · Q.· So from a software perspective, at least at
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`·6· ·some point during this setup process, the devices
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`·7· ·would discover each other's IP addresses at the
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`·8· ·software level; correct?
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`·9· · · · · · MS. BI:· Objection to form.
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`10· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· You would arrive at a state
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`11· ·where all the devices on the tactical Internet,
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`12· ·which is after all on IP net, where the software,
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`13· ·not the soldiers, the software knew IP address for
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`14· ·principal paths.· That's a requirement of every IP
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`15· ·network on the planet.
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`16· ·BY MR. RUBINO:
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`17· · · · Q.· And so each FBCB2 device would become aware
`17· · · · Q.· And so each FBCB2 device would become aware
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`18· ·at the software level of the IP address of the other
`18· ·at the software level of the IP address of the other
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`19· ·FBCB2 devices; correct?
`19· ·FBCB2 devices; correct?
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`20· · · · · · MS. BI:· Objection to form.
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`21· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Of its server and its -- the
`21· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Of its server and its -- the
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`22· ·group identified in the unit task organization, but
`22· ·group identified in the unit task organization, but
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`23· ·not necessarily of all the individual FBCB2 devices.
`23· ·not necessarily of all the individual FBCB2 devices.
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`24· ·BY MR. RUBINO:
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`25· · · · Q.· Each of the FBCB2 devices could become a
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`Case 2:17-cv-00513-JRG Document 273-7 Filed 01/09/19 Page 9 of 15 PageID #: 18217
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`DR. NEIL G. SIEGEL - 11/14/2018DR. NEIL G. SIEGEL - 11/14/2018
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`Page 196
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`·1· ·server; right?
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`·2· · · · · · MS. BI:· Objection to form.
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`·3· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· As you'll recall, I actually
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`·4· ·said before that there was some technical
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`·5· ·limitations and all the -- some significant fraction
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`·6· ·of them could, but I believe I said that out of a
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`·7· ·thousand FBCB2 devices in a prototypical brigade,
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`·8· ·hundreds of them could become servers.
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`·9· ·BY MR. RUBINO:
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`10· · · · Q.· At least with regard to the hundreds that
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`11· ·could become servers, those units could have access
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`12· ·in the software to the other unit's IP addresses;
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`13· ·correct?
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`14· · · · · · MS. BI:· Objection to form.
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`15· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· IP networking requires that
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`16· ·some knowledge of other recipients' IP addresses is
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`17· ·known.· That's a requirement of any IP system.
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`18· ·There's nothing different in this system than any
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`19· ·other IP system in that particular regard.
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`20· ·BY MR. RUBINO:
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`21· · · · Q.· Well, with regard to other IP systems, you
`21· · · · Q.· Well, with regard to other IP systems, you
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`22· ·could have a central static server and the devices
`22· ·could have a central static server and the devices
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`23· ·may only know the IP address of that server; right?
`23· ·may only know the IP address of that server; right?
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`24· ·They don't need to know each other's IP addresses.
`24· ·They don't need to know each other's IP addresses.
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`25· · · · A.· They don't need to know each other's
`25· · · · A.· They don't need to know each other's
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`Case 2:17-cv-00513-JRG Document 273-7 Filed 01/09/19 Page 10 of 15 PageID #: 18218
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`DR. NEIL G. SIEGEL - 11/14/2018DR. NEIL G. SIEGEL - 11/14/2018
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`Page 197
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`·1· ·addresses here either, you just need to know the1· ·addresses here either, you just need to know the
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`·2· ·address of the server that you're talking to.
`·2· ·address of the server that you're talking to.
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`·3· · · · Q.· But you would -- the devices could each
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`·4· ·become a server; right?
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`·5· · · · · · MS. BI:· Objection to form.
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`·6· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Not all of them.
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`·7· ·BY MR. RUBINO:
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`·8· · · · Q.· Right?
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`·9· · · · A.· Not all of them, but they could.
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`10· · · · Q.· At least for the devices that could become
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`11· ·servers --
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`12· · · · A.· Right.
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`13· · · · Q.· -- those devices would have to expose their
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`14· ·IP address; correct?
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`15· · · · · · MS. BI:· Objection to form.
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`16· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· They would have to -- I don't
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`17· ·know what you mean by "expose."· Explain what you
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`18· ·mean by that.
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`19· ·BY MR. RUBINO:
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`20· · · · Q.· So those devices that could become servers,
`20· · · · Q.· So those devices that could become servers,
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`21· ·they would have to alert other devices via the
`21· ·they would have to alert other devices via the
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`22· ·software as to their IP addresses; correct?
`22· ·software as to their IP addresses; correct?
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`23· ·Otherwise, they could never become a server; right?23· ·Otherwise, they could never become a server; right?
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`24· · · · A.· When you -- when you're in server state
`24· · · · A.· When you -- when you're in server state
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`25· ·one, the people who are being served by that server
`25· ·one, the people who are being served by that server
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`Case 2:17-cv-00513-JRG Document 273-7 Filed 01/09/19 Page 11 of 15 PageID #: 18219
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`DR. NEIL G. SIEGEL - 11/14/2018DR. NEIL G. SIEGEL - 11/14/2018
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`Page 198
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`·1· ·know its IP address.· When you're in server state1· ·know its IP address.· When you're in server state
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`·2· ·two, the people being served by that server know
`·2· ·two, the people being served by that server know
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`·3· ·that IP address, just as if in a static case.· The
`·3· ·that IP address, just as if in a static case.· The
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`·4· ·only difference is that there's a transition.
`·4· ·only difference is that there's a transition.
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`·5· · · · Q.· And so at least for the devices that could
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`·6· ·become servers, their IP address could be made known
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`·7· ·to the other devices in the network at least via the
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`·8· ·software; correct?
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`·9· · · · · · MS. BI:· Objection to form.
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`10· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I admit I don't understand
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`11· ·your question.· When you get to the second state
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`12· ·where the second device is now acting as a server,
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`13· ·then the people being served by it know its IP
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`14· ·address.
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`15· ·BY MR. RUBINO:
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`16· · · · Q.· And then you could have a third state where
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`17· ·the third device is acting as a server; right?
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`18· · · · A.· Yes.
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`19· · · · Q.· And a fourth state where a fourth device is
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`20· ·acting as a server; right?
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`21· · · · A.· Right.
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`22· · · · Q.· All the way up to --
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`23· · · · A.· But not simultaneously.· Right?· That is,
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`24· ·the people who are being served by a server are
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`25· ·talking to one server.
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`Case 2:17-cv-00513-JRG Document 273-7 Filed 01/09/19 Page 12 of 15 PageID #: 18220
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`DR. NEIL G. SIEGEL - 11/14/2018DR. NEIL G. SIEGEL - 11/14/2018
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`Page 199
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`·1· · · · Q.· And in the context of FBCB2, there's more·1· · · · Q.· And in the context of FBCB2, there's more
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`·2· ·than one server; right?
`·2· ·than one server; right?
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`·3· · · · · · MS. BI:· Objection to form.
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`·4· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· From the -- from the point of
`·4· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· From the -- from the point of
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`·5· ·view of one dependent served device, there's only
`·5· ·view of one dependent served device, there's only
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`·6· ·one server.
`·6· ·one server.
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`·7· ·BY MR. RUBINO:
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`·8· · · · Q.· At a point in time?8· · · · Q.· At a point in time?
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`·9· · · · A.· At a point in time.· Well, to them there's
`·9· · · · A.· At a point in time.· Well, to them there's
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`10· ·always one server.· That definition of what that
`10· ·always one server.· That definition of what that
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`11· ·server is may change over time, but if -- if this
`11· ·server is may change over time, but if -- if this
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`12· ·person is a dependent FBCB2, he has the IP address
`12· ·person is a dependent FBCB2, he has the IP address
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`13· ·of his server and nothing -- and need know nothing
`13· ·of his server and nothing -- and need know nothing
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`14· ·else.
`14· ·else.
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`15· · · · Q.· So let's -- let's take an example where you
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`16· ·have five devices and one of the devices is a
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`17· ·server.· Okay?
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`18· · · · A.· Okay.
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`19· · · · Q.· And so at least in the scenario where we
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`20· ·have one device as the server, the other four
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`21· ·devices need to know that server's IP address;
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`22· ·right?
`
`23· · · · A.· Just as in the static case, correct.
`
`24· · · · Q.· Now, what happens if that server is blown
`
`25· ·up --
`
`
`Epiq Court Reporting Solutions - New YorkEpiq Court Reporting Solutions - New York
`
`1-800-325-33761-800-325-3376
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`www.deposition.comwww.deposition.comYVer1f
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`Case 2:17-cv-00513-JRG Document 273-7 Filed 01/09/19 Page 13 of 15 PageID #: 18221
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`
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`DR. NEIL G. SIEGEL - 11/14/2018DR. NEIL G. SIEGEL - 11/14/2018
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`Page 200
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`·1· · · · A.· Right.
`
`·2· · · · Q.· -- how do the other four devices figure out
`
`·3· ·who's going to be the next server?· Don't they need
`
`·4· ·to exchange IP addresses?
`
`·5· · · · A.· There's a discovery protocol that, first of
`
`·6· ·all, lacks a new unit as the server and the election
`
`·7· ·protocol, and then there's a discovery protocol that
`
`·8· ·allows those dependent people to find the new
`
`·9· ·server.
`
`10· · · · Q.· And in that election and discovery protocol
`
`11· ·the devices have access to each other's IP
`
`12· ·addresses, at least at the software level; correct?
`
`13· · · · · · MS. BI:· Objection to form.
`
`14· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I don't know what devices
`
`15· ·you're talking about.· The dependent devices only
`
`16· ·know the address of the first server and the address
`
`17· ·of the second server, just as in the static case.
`
`18· ·BY MR. RUBINO:
`
`19· · · · Q.· And then if that second server also gets
`19· · · · Q.· And then if that second server also gets
`
`20· ·blown up and you're left with three units, then what
`20· ·blown up and you're left with three units, then what
`
`21· ·happens?
`21· ·happens?
`
`22· · · · A.· Oh, the server need not be part of that
`22· · · · A.· Oh, the server need not be part of that
`
`
`
`23· ·platoon.· The server could be a different unit.· So23· ·platoon.· The server could be a different unit.·
`
`24· ·I mean, it is possible that if enough server
`
`25· ·eligible units in a small physical area are blown
`
`
`Epiq Court Reporting Solutions - New YorkEpiq Court Reporting Solutions - New York
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`1-800-325-33761-800-325-3376
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`www.deposition.comwww.deposition.comYVer1f
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`
`Case 2:17-cv-00513-JRG Document 273-7 Filed 01/09/19 Page 14 of 15 PageID #: 18222
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`DR. NEIL G. SIEGEL - 11/14/2018DR. NEIL G. SIEGEL - 11/14/2018
`
`Page 201
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`·1· ·up, the network would fail for -- for some small set
`
`·2· ·of people who no longer had access to a server.· In
`
`·3· ·actual combat in Kosova, Bosnia, Iraq and
`
`·4· ·Afghanistan I'm never aware of that having happened.
`
`·5· · · · Q.· So at least with regard to the way FBCB2
`
`·6· ·works, there's nothing in the software that prevents
`
`·7· ·the IP addresses of any devices from being
`
`·8· ·discovered by others; right?
`
`·9· · · · · · MS. BI:· Objection to form.
`
`10· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Sorry, say that again. I
`
`11· ·don't get -- I don't get the gist of your question.
`
`12· ·BY MR. RUBINO:
`
`13· · · · Q.· So there's nothing in the FBCB2 software
`13· · · · Q.· So there's nothing in the FBCB2 software
`
`14· ·that would prevent the IP address of a device from
`14· ·that would prevent the IP address of a device from
`
`
`
`15· ·being discovered by other devices; correct?15· ·being discovered by other devices; correct?
`
`16· · · · A.· No, that question's not well-formed.· If --
`16· · · · A.· No, that question's not well-formed.· If --
`
`17· ·if a device is server eligible under the conditions
`17· ·if a device is server eligible under the conditions
`
`18· ·of when it has been elected to be a server, then the
`18· ·of when it has been elected to be a server, then the
`
`19· ·discovery protocol can be operated.· But only under
`19· ·discovery protocol can be operated.· But only under
`
`20· ·that very specific condition is the IP address
`20· ·that very specific condition is the IP address
`
`21· ·discoverable.
`21· ·discoverable.
`
`22· · · · Q.· And again, the focus of FBCB2 was to allow
`
`23· ·more than one device to be able to become a server;
`
`24· ·right?
`
`25· · · · · · MS. BI:· Objection to form.
`
`
`Epiq Court Reporting Solutions - New YorkEpiq Court Reporting Solutions - New York
`
`1-800-325-33761-800-325-3376
`
`www.deposition.comwww.deposition.comYVer1f
`
`
`
`Case 2:17-cv-00513-JRG Document 273-7 Filed 01/09/19 Page 15 of 15 PageID #: 18223
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`DR. NEIL G. SIEGEL - 11/14/2018DR. NEIL G. SIEGEL - 11/14/2018
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`Page 202
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`·1· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I would say it differently.
`
`·2· ·The purp -- the purpose of this capability we're
`
`·3· ·discussing was to allow for some reasonable
`
`·4· ·continuity of the server function in the crazy and
`
`·5· ·difficult environment of an actual combat
`
`·6· ·battlefield.
`
`·7· ·BY MR. RUBINO:
`
`·8· · · · Q.· Which would mean that you'd want multiple
`
`·9· ·devices to be able to act in the role of a server;
`
`10· ·right?
`
`11· · · · A.· That is -- that was the design decision we
`
`12· ·came to.· That is, having the opportunity of -- of
`
`13· ·additional units being elected to replace a server
`
`14· ·that had gone away for whatever reason.· That was
`
`15· ·the way that we elected to get continuity on the
`
`16· ·battlefield.· It was a design decision.
`
`17· · · · Q.· And again, as part of that election and
`17· · · · Q.· And again, as part of that election and
`
`18· ·discovery process, IP addresses are exchanged;
`18· ·discovery process, IP addresses are exchanged;
`
`19· ·correct?
`19· ·correct?
`
`20· · · · · · MS. BI:· Objection to form.
`
`21· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· The statement is way too
`21· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· The statement is way too
`
`22· ·broad and misleading.· The information about the --
`22· ·broad and misleading.· The information about the --
`
`23· · · · · · MR. RUBINO:· If it's misleading, then I'll
`
`24· ·withdraw the question.
`
`25· · · · · · THE WITNESS:· Okay.
`
`
`Epiq Court Reporting Solutions - New YorkEpiq Court Reporting Solutions - New York
`
`1-800-325-33761-800-325-3376
`
`www.deposition.comwww.deposition.comYVer1f
`
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