Trademark Trial and Appeal Board Electronic Filing System. http://estta.uspto.gov
`ESTTA744658
`05/05/2016
`
`ESTTA Tracking number:
`
`Filing date:
`
`Proceeding
`
`Party
`
`Correspondence
`Address
`
`Submission
`
`Filer's Name
`
`Filer's e-mail
`
`Signature
`
`Date
`
`Attachments
`
`IN THE UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE TRADEMARK TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`92057850
`
`Plaintiff
`Merchant & Gould P.C.
`
`JOHN A CLIFFORD
`MERCHANT & GOULD PC
`80 S 8TH ST STE 3200
`MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55402-2215
`UNITED STATES
`jclifford@merchantgould.com, aavery@merchantgould.com, dockm-
`pls@merchantgould.com, merbele@merchantgould.com
`Testimony For Plaintiff
`
`John A. Clifford
`
`jclifford@merchantgould.com, aavery@merchantgould.com
`
`/John A. Clifford/
`
`05/05/2016
`
`2016 05 07 Petitioners Testimony of John Gould.pdf(300966 bytes )
`2016 05 07 Petitioner Gould Exhibit 1.pdf(128506 bytes )
`2016 05 07 Petitioner Gould Exhibit 2.pdf(309943 bytes )
`2016 05 07 Petitioner Gould Exhibit 3.pdf(4205948 bytes )
`2016 05 07 Petitioner Gould Exhibit 4.pdf(2878833 bytes )
`2016 05 07 Petitioner Gould Exhibit 5.pdf(127380 bytes )
`2016 05 07 Petitioner Gould Exhibit 6.pdf(840322 bytes )
`2016 05 05 Certificate of Service - Petitioners Testimony of John D.
`Gould.pdf(71460 bytes )
`
`
`ESTTA744658
`05/05/2016
`
`ESTTA Tracking number:
`
`Filing date:
`
`Proceeding
`
`Party
`
`Correspondence
`Address
`
`Submission
`
`Filer's Name
`
`Filer's e-mail
`
`Signature
`
`Date
`
`Attachments
`
`IN THE UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE TRADEMARK TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`92057850
`
`Plaintiff
`Merchant & Gould P.C.
`
`JOHN A CLIFFORD
`MERCHANT & GOULD PC
`80 S 8TH ST STE 3200
`MINNEAPOLIS, MN 55402-2215
`UNITED STATES
`jclifford@merchantgould.com, aavery@merchantgould.com, dockm-
`pls@merchantgould.com, merbele@merchantgould.com
`Testimony For Plaintiff
`
`John A. Clifford
`
`jclifford@merchantgould.com, aavery@merchantgould.com
`
`/John A. Clifford/
`
`05/05/2016
`
`2016 05 07 Petitioners Testimony of John Gould.pdf(300966 bytes )
`2016 05 07 Petitioner Gould Exhibit 1.pdf(128506 bytes )
`2016 05 07 Petitioner Gould Exhibit 2.pdf(309943 bytes )
`2016 05 07 Petitioner Gould Exhibit 3.pdf(4205948 bytes )
`2016 05 07 Petitioner Gould Exhibit 4.pdf(2878833 bytes )
`2016 05 07 Petitioner Gould Exhibit 5.pdf(127380 bytes )
`2016 05 07 Petitioner Gould Exhibit 6.pdf(840322 bytes )
`2016 05 05 Certificate of Service - Petitioners Testimony of John D.
`Gould.pdf(71460 bytes )
`
`
`
`
`
`Gould, John D. -· 05/07/2014Gould, John D. -· 05/07/2014
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`Page 1
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`·1· · · IN THE UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·2· · · · BEFORE THE TRADEMARK TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·3· ·- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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`·4· ·Merchant & Gould P.C.,
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`·5· · · · · · · · · · Petitioner,
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Cancellation No. 92057850
`·6· · · v.· · · · · · · · · · · · Registration No. 4,202,232
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · Mark:· MG-IP
`·7· ·MG-IP Law, PLLC,
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · Respondent.
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`·9· ·- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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`12· · · · · · ·TELEPHONIC DEPOSITION OF JOHN D. GOULD
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`13· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·MAY 7, 2014
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`14· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·10:05 A.M.
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`23· · · · · · · · · ·REPORTED BY:· HART ERICKSON
`· · · · · · PRO-SYSTEMS COURT REPORTING & VIDEO SERVICES
`24· · · · · · · · · · 4305 BRYANT AVENUE SOUTH
`· · · · · · · · · · MINNEAPOLIS, MINNESOTA 55409
`25· · · · · · ·PHONE: 612.823.2100 * FAX: 612.823.6100
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`Gould, John D. -· 05/07/2014Gould, John D. -· 05/07/2014
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`Page 2
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · ·A P P E A R A N C E S
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`·2· ·COUNSEL ON BEHALF OF PETITIONER:
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`·3· · · · · JOHN A. CLIFFORD, ESQ.
`· · · · · · MICHAEL ERBELE, ESQ.
`·4· · · · · MERCHANT & GOULD P.C.
`· · · · · · 3200 IDS Center
`·5· · · · · 80 South Eighth Street
`· · · · · · Minneapolis, Minnesota· 55402-2215
`·6· · · · · 612.336.4616
`· · · · · · jclifford@merchantgould.com
`·7
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`·8· ·COUNSEL ON BEHALF OF RESPONDENT:
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`·9· · · · · DAVID KELLY, ESQ.· (Via telephone)
`· · · · · · MARY E. BROWNFIELD, ESQ.· (Via telephone)
`10· · · · · KELLY IP
`· · · · · · 1330 Connecticut Avenue NW, Suite 300
`11· · · · · Washington, D.C.· 20036
`· · · · · · 202.808.3570
`12· · · · · david.kelly@kelly-ip.com
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`Gould, John D. -· 05/07/2014Gould, John D. -· 05/07/2014
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`Page 3
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · I N D E X
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`·2· ·EXAMINATION OF JOHN D. GOULD:
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`·3· · · · · · · · · · DIRECT EXAMINATION· CROSS-EXAMINATION
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`·4· ·BY MR. CLIFFORD· · · · 5, 52
`· · ·BY MR. KELLY· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 26, 54
`·5
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`·6
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`·7· ·PETITIONER'S EXHIBITS REFERENCED:· · · · · · · · · PAGE
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`·8· ·1.· Legal War Stories, A Memoir· · · · · · · · · · ·11
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`·9· ·2.· Bench & Bar of Minnesota (MG000897-MG000898)· · 12
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`10· ·3.· 100 Years Advancing Innovation
`· · · · ·(MG000079- MG000112)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · 13
`11
`· · ·4.· 8/4/95 letter to Gould from Eggimann and
`12· · · ·attachment (MG000035, MG000037-MG000058)· · · · 16
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`13· ·5.· 8/21/95 letter to Eggimann from Gould
`· · · · ·(MG000036)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 20
`14
`· · ·6.· Results of internet search (MG000033-MG000034)· 22
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`· · ·7.· M&G coaster· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·53
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`18· ·RESPONDENT'S EXHIBITS REFERENCED:· · · · · · · · · PAGE
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`19· ·1.· (Withdrawn)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · -
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`20· ·2.· Trademark Clearance and Usage Guide
`· · · · ·(MG000129-MG000130)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·39
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`· · ·3.· Trademark Clearance and Usage Guide
`22· · · ·(MG000131-MG000134)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·39
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`23· ·4.· Trademark Clearance and Usage Guide
`· · · · ·(MG000900-MG000903)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·39
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`· · ·5.· Trademark Notice (MG000451-MG000452)· · · · · · 49
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`Page 4
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · · I N D E X
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`·2· ·RESPONDENT'S EXHIBITS REFERENCED (CONT.):· · · · · PAGE
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`·3· ·6.· Trademark Notice (MG000642-MG000643)· · · · · · 49
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`·4· ·7.· Press release - Named Tier 1 IP Law Firm - 2011 44
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`·5· ·8.· (Withdrawn)· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · -
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`·6· ·9.· Press release - Working at M&G· · · · · · · · · 46
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`·7· ·10. Excerpt - Honors & Recognitions· · · · · · · · ·45
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`·8· ·11. Website page - Honors & Recognitions· · · · · · 43
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`·9· ·12. Press release - Patent Filings Up 12% in 2009· ·50
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`Page 5
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · JOHN D. GOULD
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`·2· · · ·a witness in the above-entitled action, having been
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`·3· · · ·first duly sworn, testifies and says as follows:
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`·4· · · · · · · · · · · ·DIRECT EXAMINATION
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`·5· ·BY MR. CLIFFORD:
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`·6· ·Q.· Good morning, Mr. Gould.
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`·7· ·A.· Good morning, Mr. Clifford.
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`·8· ·Q.· Thank you for being here today.
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`·9· ·A.· I'm sorry I was late.
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`10· ·Q.· Obviously we're here to conduct your deposition in
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`11· · · ·a trademark cancellation proceeding, but I'd like
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`12· · · ·to just make a record of who you are and that sort
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`13· · · ·of thing.
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`14· ·A.· Okay.
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`15· ·Q.· So would you state your full name, please.
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`16· ·A.· John Douglas Gould.
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`17· ·Q.· And where do you reside?
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`18· ·A.· 310 Cecil Street, C-e-c-i-l, Southeast,
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`19· · · ·Minneapolis.
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`20· ·Q.· And what is your profession, sir?
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`21· ·A.· I am a lawyer.
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`22· ·Q.· And how long have you been a lawyer?
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`23· ·A.· Well, I was admitted in 1953, so a little over
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`24· · · ·60 years.
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`25· ·Q.· And are you specialized in any field?
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`Page 6
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`·1· ·A.· Intellectual property.
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`·2· ·Q.· And how long has that been the case?
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`·3· ·A.· Since 1954 when I joined Ralph Merchant.
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`·4· ·Q.· Where did you conduct your practice?
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`·5· ·A.· Minneapolis.
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`·6· ·Q.· And are you associated with any particular firm at
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`·7· · · ·this time?
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`·8· ·A.· Merchant & Gould.
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`·9· ·Q.· And how long have you been associated with that
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`10· · · ·firm?
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`11· ·A.· 60 years.
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`12· ·Q.· Did you recently have an anniversary?
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`13· ·A.· I did.
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`14· ·Q.· Was there any publicity surrounding that
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`15· · · ·anniversary?
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`16· ·A.· Well, we had a little party here at the firm.
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`17· ·Q.· Do you know if there were any announcements in the
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`18· · · ·legal publications?
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`19· ·A.· I'm not sure about that.
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`20· ·Q.· Are you familiar with the history of what is now
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`21· · · ·Merchant & Gould?
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`22· ·A.· Pretty much.
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`23· ·Q.· Can you summarize your involvement with the firm
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`24· · · ·over the years, just stating some of the high
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`25· · · ·points?· We don't want to cover all the details.
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`Page 7
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`·1· ·A.· Well, the firm was known as Merchant & Merchant.
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`·2· · · ·There were two brothers, only one was a lawyer,
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`·3· · · ·that was my partner, Ralph Merchant, and Harvey
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`·4· · · ·Merchant was admitted to practice before the Patent
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`·5· · · ·and Trademark Office.
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`·6· · · · · · I was admitted as a partner in '61, I think,
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`·7· · · ·and the firm became known as Merchant, Merchant &
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`·8· · · ·Gould until Harvey died and then we were known as
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`·9· · · ·Merchant & Gould.· I'm not sure exactly when Harvey
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`10· · · ·died.· '71 or '72.· Or maybe '61 or '62.
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`11· ·Q.· I'll just state on the record that I did consult
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`12· · · ·with our personnel department who advised me that
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`13· · · ·Harvey Merchant passed away August 17, 1962.
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`14· ·A.· '62, yes.
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`15· ·Q.· And roughly what years was the firm known as
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`16· · · ·Merchant & Merchant?
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`17· ·A.· Well, I can't say for sure, but when Ralph
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`18· · · ·graduated from law school and joined the firm it
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`19· · · ·was Merchant & Merchant.
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`20· ·Q.· And did the firm name change at some point in time?
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`21· ·A.· Well, when I became a partner it was Merchant,
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`22· · · ·Merchant & Gould.
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`23· ·Q.· And when was that, sir?
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`24· ·A.· Well, '61 or '2.
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`25· ·Q.· And did the name change after that so it was no
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`·1· · · ·longer Merchant, Merchant & Gould?
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`·2· ·A.· Yes.
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`·3· ·Q.· And when was that?
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`·4· ·A.· Well, I believe it was in the '70s we took in four
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`·5· · · ·young partners and it became known as Merchant,
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`·6· · · ·Gould, Smith, Edell, Welter & Schmidt.
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`·7· ·Q.· And did the name change after that at some point?
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`·8· ·A.· Yes.· Welter died and Edell and Schmidt retired and
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`·9· · · ·we went back to Merchant & Gould.
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`10· ·Q.· Do you recall when that took place?
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`11· ·A.· No.
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`12· ·Q.· What is the practice of the law firm known as
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`13· · · ·Merchant & Gould today?
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`14· ·A.· Intellectual property.
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`15· ·Q.· How many offices does the firm maintain around the
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`16· · · ·country?
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`17· ·A.· Well, let's see.· Seattle, Madison, Knoxville,
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`18· · · ·Atlanta and New York.
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`19· ·Q.· Is there an office in Denver?
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`20· ·A.· Oh, yes.
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`21· ·Q.· And Washington, D.C. --
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`22· ·A.· Yes.
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`23· ·Q.· -- or nearby, near the Patent Office?
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`24· ·A.· Yes.
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`25· ·Q.· Do you know approximately how many lawyers are in
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`Page 9
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`·1· · · ·the firm of Merchant & Gould today?
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`·2· ·A.· I think a little over 100.
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`·3· ·Q.· Thank you.
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`·4· · · · · · Are you generally familiar with how the firm
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`·5· · · ·name has been known by people outside the firm over
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`·6· · · ·the years?
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`·7· ·A.· I believe so.
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`·8· ·Q.· For example, are you familiar with how clients have
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`·9· · · ·referred to the firm?
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`10· ·A.· Well, they've referred to the firm as Merchant &
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`11· · · ·Gould and by the shorthand M&G.
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`12· ·Q.· And how long has that been the case, to your
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`13· · · ·knowledge?
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`14· ·A.· For a long time.
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`15· ·Q.· I have some exhibits that I'd like to get to in a
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`16· · · ·minute, but before I do that, I'd like to ask you
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`17· · · ·if those names, Merchant & Gould and M and G or
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`18· · · ·M&G, were known to people other than clients and
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`19· · · ·employees of the firm?
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`20· ·A.· Well, I think we became nationally known --
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`21· ·Q.· And we have some --
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`22· ·A.· -- to other law firms.
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`23· ·Q.· And did we have a reputation with judges in this
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`24· · · ·community and other communities?
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`25· ·A.· Yes.
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`·1· ·Q.· And with prospective clients did we have a
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`·2· · · ·reputation?
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`·3· ·A.· I think so.
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`·4· ·Q.· And with law firms in other cities or other
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`·5· · · ·countries?
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`·6· ·A.· Yes.
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`·7· ·Q.· Do you have an understanding of the nature of the
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`·8· · · ·practice of the firm with respect to law firms in
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`·9· · · ·other countries?
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`10· ·A.· I'm not sure I understand the question.
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`11· ·Q.· I'm pretty sure it was a poor question.
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`12· · · · · · Has the firm had business relationships with
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`13· · · ·law firms outside the United States --
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`14· ·A.· Yes.
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`15· ·Q.· -- or agency firms or trademark agents or patent
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`16· · · ·agents outside the U.S.?
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`17· ·A.· Yes.
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`18· ·Q.· And how long has that been the case?
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`19· ·A.· Well, I think we had the foreign practice in the
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`20· · · ·beginning.
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`21· ·Q.· And to your knowledge, is the firm well known among
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`22· · · ·law firms in other countries that engage in
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`23· · · ·intellectual property?
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`24· ·A.· Yes.
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`25· ·Q.· I'd like to show you what's been marked Exhibit
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`Page 11
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`·1· · · ·Number 1, and for Mr. Kelly's benefit, that is the
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`·2· · · ·book called Legal War Stories, A Memoir.
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`·3· · · · · · · · · MR. CLIFFORD:· And I know that was
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`·4· · · ·produced to you earlier, so I'll just proceed, if
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`·5· · · ·that's convenient for you, Mr. Kelly.
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`·6· · · · · · · · · MR. KELLY:· Yes.· I have a copy in front
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`·7· · · ·of me.
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`·8· ·BY MR. CLIFFORD:
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`·9· ·Q.· Handing you what's been be marked as Petitioner's
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`10· · · ·Exhibit Number 1, Mr. Gould, can you identify that?
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`11· ·A.· Yes.· I wrote it.
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`12· ·Q.· And what is it?
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`13· ·A.· Well, it's a brief history of some of the lawsuits
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`14· · · ·I tried called Legal War Stories.
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`15· ·Q.· And is that sort of a summary of various pieces of
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`16· · · ·litigation you were involved in personally over the
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`17· · · ·years?
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`18· ·A.· Yes.
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`19· ·Q.· And when was that book published?
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`20· ·A.· Well, is there a date?
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`21· ·Q.· I believe there is a copyright date inside.
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`22· ·A.· It was copyrighted in 2010.
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`23· ·Q.· And were copies of that book distributed in any
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`24· · · ·way?
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`25· ·A.· Yes.
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`·1· ·Q.· How was it distributed?
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`·2· ·A.· Well, it was distributed to all the litigators in
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`·3· · · ·the firm, and I had a list of friends that I sent
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`·4· · · ·copies to.
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`·5· ·Q.· People outside the firm?
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`·6· ·A.· Yes.· And judges.· Judge David Doty has been a good
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`·7· · · ·friend of mine for years.
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`·8· ·Q.· And who is Judge Doty for the record?
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`·9· ·A.· He's a Federal District Judge in Minnesota.
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`10· ·Q.· I will hand you what's been marked Petitioner's
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`11· · · ·Exhibit 2, and for Mr. Kelly's benefit, that is a
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`12· · · ·two-page exhibit, Bench & Bar of Minnesota magazine
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`13· · · ·cover, and then an inside page of the magazine with
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`14· · · ·control numbers MG000897 and 898.
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`15· · · · · · · · · MR. KELLY:· I have it.
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`16· ·BY MR. CLIFFORD:
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`17· ·Q.· Handing you, Mr. Gould, what's been marked
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`18· · · ·Petitioner's Exhibit 2, can you identify that for
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`19· · · ·the record?
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`20· ·A.· Well, the Bench & Bar is a publication of the
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`21· · · ·Minnesota State Bar Association, and on the second
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`22· · · ·page there is an advertisement giving me
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`23· · · ·congratulations celebrating 60 years with
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`24· · · ·Merchant & Gould.
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`25· ·Q.· Can you just read the text of that announcement,
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`·1· · · ·please, into the record?
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`·2· ·A.· It says, "Congratulations to John D. Gould
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`·3· · · ·Celebrating 60 years with Merchant & Gould.· From
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`·4· · · ·your friends and colleagues at M&G."· And then
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`·5· · · ·there is a picture of me.
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`·6· ·Q.· Thank you.
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`·7· · · · · · Do you know generally the circulation of
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`·8· · · ·Bench & Bar Magazine?
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`·9· ·A.· Well, I know it goes to all the lawyers and judges
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`10· · · ·in Minnesota, and it may be widely circulated
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`11· · · ·outside Minnesota.
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`12· ·Q.· Is there a date on the first page of Exhibit 2?
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`13· ·A.· April 2014.
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`14· ·Q.· I'm going to move to Exhibit Number 3, which,
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`15· · · ·Mr. Kelly, is the 100 Advancing Innovation Years
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`16· · · ·booklet with control numbers MG 79 through 112
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`17· · · ·inclusive.
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`18· · · · · · · · · MR. KELLY:· I have it.
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`19· · · · · · · · · MR. CLIFFORD:· Thank you.
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`20· ·BY MR. CLIFFORD:
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`21· ·Q.· Mr. Gould, handing you Exhibit Number 3, can you
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`22· · · ·identify that for the record?
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`23· ·A.· Well, this was published after our 100th
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`24· · · ·anniversary.
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`25· ·Q.· And it's a booklet or a book of some sort?
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`·1· ·A.· Yes.· It's a booklet about the firm and its first
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`·2· · · ·100 years.
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`·3· ·Q.· And you're generally familiar with that book?
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`·4· ·A.· Yes.
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`·5· ·Q.· Did you write that book?
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`·6· ·A.· Well, I didn't write it all, but I must have
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`·7· · · ·contributed.
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`·8· ·Q.· Thank you.· And was there any other event
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`·9· · · ·surrounding the 100-year anniversary of the firm
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`10· · · ·that you recall?
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`11· ·A.· Well, I think the firm had a little party for me.
`
`12· ·Q.· And do you know what was done with Exhibit
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`13· · · ·Number 3, the 100-year anniversary booklet?
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`14· ·A.· Well, I assume a copy was given to all of our
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`15· · · ·lawyers and it may have been otherwise widely
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`16· · · ·distributed.
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`17· ·Q.· And looking at Exhibit Number 3, the first page is
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`18· · · ·the cover, and opening the cover to what I would
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`19· · · ·say is the inside first page, do you see that page,
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`20· · · ·sir?· I've opened it for you.
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`21· ·A.· I do.
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`22· ·Q.· And there is sort of a table of contents describing
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`23· · · ·three chapters.· Is that right?
`
`24· ·A.· Yes.
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`25· ·Q.· And do you see a circular logo sort of to the right
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`·1· · · ·of a photograph of Randy King next to Chapter 3?
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`·2· ·A.· I do.
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`·3· ·Q.· Are you familiar with that particular logo?
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`·4· ·A.· I'm familiar with it as part of this brochure
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`·5· · · ·celebrating our 100 years.
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`·6· ·Q.· Do you know if that logo was used in other places
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`·7· · · ·at the time of the 100-year anniversary?
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`·8· ·A.· I don't know for sure, but I'm sure it was.
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`·9· ·Q.· Well, you just said I don't know for sure but I'm
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`10· · · ·sure it was, so maybe I could have you clarify
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`11· · · ·that.
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`12· · · · · · · · · MR. CLIFFORD:· Could I ask the court
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`13· · · ·reporter to read the question back and maybe you
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`14· · · ·can try to answer it without a contradiction.
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`15
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`16· · · (The requested portion of testimony was read back)
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`17
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`18· · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I believe that it was.
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`19· · · · · · · · · MR. CLIFFORD:· Thank you.
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`20· ·BY MR. CLIFFORD:
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`21· ·Q.· And do you see the letters M&G as part of that
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`22· · · ·logo?
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`23· ·A.· I do.
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`24· ·Q.· Can you state for the record what year the 100-year
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`25· · · ·anniversary of the law firm took place?
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`·1· ·A.· 1900.
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`·2· ·Q.· Was the founding.
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`·3· ·A.· Yes.
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`·4· ·Q.· So when was the centennial?
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`·5· ·A.· 2000.
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`·6· ·Q.· So this brochure, Exhibit 3, would have been
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`·7· · · ·published in or around the year 2000?
`
`·8· ·A.· Yes.
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`·9· ·Q.· Are you familiar with the law firm of Meagher &
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`10· · · ·Geer?
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`11· ·A.· Meagher & Geer?
`
`12· ·Q.· Yes.
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`13· ·A.· Yes.
`
`14· ·Q.· And what is your understanding of that firm?
`
`15· ·A.· Well, it's a general practice firm in Minneapolis.
`
`16· ·Q.· And how long have they been around, to your
`
`17· · · ·knowledge?
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`18· ·A.· Quite a long time.
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`19· ·Q.· Did there ever come a time when you interacted with
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`20· · · ·Meagher & Geer concerning the trademark M&G?
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`21· ·A.· Yes.
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`22· ·Q.· I'm going to show you Exhibit 4, which I'll
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`23· · · ·describe for Mr. Kelly, it's a one-page letter with
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`24· · · ·control number MG000035 and then a brochure with
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`25· · · ·control numbers ending in 37 through 58 inclusive.
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`·1· · · ·And that's Exhibit Number 4.
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`·2· · · · · · · · · MR. CLIFFORD:· Let me know when you have
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`·3· · · ·that in front of you, Mr. Kelly.
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`·4· · · · · · · · · MR. KELLY:· So that's a total of 35
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`·5· · · ·through 58?
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`·6· · · · · · · · · MR. CLIFFORD:· But for number 36.· So
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`·7· · · ·that's going to be Exhibit 5.
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`·8· · · · · · · · · MR. KELLY:· Okay.
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`·9· · · · · · · · · MR. CLIFFORD:· And for your benefit, I
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`10· · · ·believe that reconstructs the way the documents
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`11· · · ·originally appeared; namely, the August 4, 1995,
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`12· · · ·letter was with the brochure as one thing at one
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`13· · · ·time.
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`14· · · · · · · · · MR. KELLY:· Okay.
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`15· ·BY MR. CLIFFORD:
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`16· ·Q.· Handing you Exhibit 4, Petitioner's Exhibit 4, can
`
`17· · · ·you identify that for the record, please?
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`18· ·A.· This is a letter to me of August 4, 1995, with an
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`19· · · ·attached brochure from the managing partner at
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`20· · · ·Meagher & Geer.
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`21· ·Q.· Do you recall the circumstances leading to that
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`22· · · ·letter being written to you?
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`23· ·A.· Yes.
`
`24· ·Q.· What do you recall about those circumstances?
`
`25· ·A.· Well, I think I must have called the managing
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`·1· · · ·partner when the brochure came to our attention
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`·2· · · ·about the use of M&G and asked him to -- well, I
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`·3· · · ·think we may have discovered that they were
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`·4· · · ·attempting to register it as a trademark, and we
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`·5· · · ·asked them to withdraw that application.
`
`·6· ·Q.· And what, if anything, did you do once that
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`·7· · · ·information came to your knowledge?
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`·8· ·A.· Well, I guess I must have called or wrote the
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`·9· · · ·managing partner about the use of M&G and tried to
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`10· · · ·get them to quit.
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`11· ·Q.· And it's clear from the record that would have
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`12· · · ·taken place about 19 years ago.· Is that consistent
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`13· · · ·with your recollection of the events?
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`14· ·A.· Yes.
`
`15· ·Q.· Did you reach any agreement with Meagher & Geer
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`16· · · ·about what would be done?
`
`17· ·A.· Yes.
`
`18· ·Q.· What was the nature of that agreement?
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`19· ·A.· Well, that they would withdraw their application to
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`20· · · ·register M&G for legal services, and I agreed to
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`21· · · ·let them finish using up their brochures, which I
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`22· · · ·thought would be done within the year.
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`23· ·Q.· Opening Exhibit Number 4 to a page with the control
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`24· · · ·number ending in 54, I'll hand that to you and ask
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`25· · · ·you just to review that.
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`·1· ·A.· Yes.
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`·2· ·Q.· Is it fair to say that brochure of Meagher & Geer
`
`·3· · · ·was something they published and described in their
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`·4· · · ·own words their firm and what they wanted to say
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`·5· · · ·about their firm?
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`·6· ·A.· Yes.
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`·7· ·Q.· And is that, to your experience, typical of what
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`·8· · · ·law firms say in brochures they publish?
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`·9· ·A.· Well, I assume so, but...
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`10· ·Q.· And does that firm describe -- strike that.
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`11· · · · · · Does that brochure of Meagher & Geer describe
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`12· · · ·that firm having an intellectual property practice?
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`13· ·A.· Which rather surprises me, but it is identified.
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`14· ·Q.· So if the brochure is correct, were they a
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`15· · · ·competitor of Merchant & Gould at that time?
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`16· ·A.· No.
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`17· ·Q.· Why not?
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`18· ·A.· Well, they were too small.
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`19· ·Q.· Okay.· Or their intellectual property practice
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`20· · · ·perhaps was too small.
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`21· · · · · · · · · MR. KELLY:· Objection.
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`22· ·A.· Yes.
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`23· · · · · · · · · MR. KELLY:· Objection.· Not a question,
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`24· · · ·a leading statement and is testimony by counsel.
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`25· · · ·Please restrict to questions.
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`·1· ·BY MR. CLIFFORD:
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`·2· ·Q.· Did you have an understanding in the year 1995 of
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`·3· · · ·the size of any intellectual property practice at
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`·4· · · ·Meagher & Geer?
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`·5· ·A.· Well, it was very small.· If they had one lawyer in
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`·6· · · ·that field, it was a big deal for them.
`
`·7· ·Q.· Did you have an understanding of the number of
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`·8· · · ·lawyers total at Meagher & Geer in 1995?
`
`·9· ·A.· I don't, but they were a good-sized firm.
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`10· ·Q.· Handing you what's been marked Exhibit 5, which
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`11· · · ·I'll describe for Mr. Kelly, it's a one-page
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`12· · · ·document with control number ending in 36, so it's
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`13· · · ·the one that came out of that series that's not
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`14· · · ·part of Exhibit 4.· It's an August 21, 1995,
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`15· · · ·letter.
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`16· ·A.· You can see from the letter of August 4th from the
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`17· · · ·letterhead of Meagher & Geer that they have a long
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`18· · · ·list of lawyers.
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`19· ·Q.· Thank you.· Handing you what's been marked as
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`20· · · ·Exhibit 5, can you identify that?
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`21· ·A.· Yes.
`
`22· ·Q.· And what is Exhibit 5?
`
`23· ·A.· It's a letter I wrote to the managing partner of
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`24· · · ·Meagher & Geer, Steve Eggimann.
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`25· ·Q.· And what was the purpose of that letter?
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`·1· ·A.· Well, it was to confirm our understanding that they
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`·2· · · ·would withdraw their application to register M&G as
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`·3· · · ·a trademark for legal services, and we agreed to
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`·4· · · ·permit them to use up their brochures which are a
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`·5· · · ·part of Petitioner's Exhibit 4.
`
`·6· ·Q.· And do you see the names of all the lawyers on
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`·7· · · ·Exhibit 5?
`
`·8· ·A.· Yes.
`
`·9· ·Q.· And was it the practice of the firm at that time to
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`10· · · ·list the lawyers practicing with the firm that way?
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`11· ·A.· Yes.
`
`12· ·Q.· And just by comparing Exhibit 5 with the first page
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`13· · · ·of Exhibit 4, were Merchant & Gould and Meagher &
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`14· · · ·Geer approximately the same size in terms of the
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`15· · · ·number of lawyers?
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`16· ·A.· No.· They have quite a few more lawyers.
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`17· ·Q.· Who is the they?
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`18· ·A.· Meagher & Geer.
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`19· ·Q.· Okay.· Thank you.
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`20· · · · · · And why did you contact Meagher & Geer in
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`21· · · ·1995?
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`22· ·A.· Well, this brochure came to our attention using our
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`23· · · ·trademark M&G and...
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`24· ·Q.· And?
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`25· ·A.· And I wanted them to quit.
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`·1· ·Q.· And why did you want them to quit?
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`·2· ·A.· Well, because I didn't want them to use our name
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`·3· · · ·and logo.
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`·4· ·Q.· Did you have any other concerns other than you
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`·5· · · ·didn't want them to do it?· Or why did you not want
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`·6· · · ·them to do it?
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`·7· ·A.· Well, they said they were going to register it for
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`·8· · · ·legal services and we didn't want that to happen.
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`·9· ·Q.· And why didn't you want that to happen?
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`10· ·A.· Because that's our trademark.
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`11· ·Q.· Do you know if Meagher & Geer ever did abandon
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`12· · · ·their application or give up their effort to
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`13· · · ·register the mark?
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`14· ·A.· They said they would.
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`15· ·Q.· I'll hand you what's been marked as Exhibit 6,
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`16· · · ·which is documents with control numbers 33 and 34,
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`17· · · ·a two-page exhibit.
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`18· · · · · · · · · MR. CLIFFORD:· I would describe it as a
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`19· · · ·printout from a website, if that helps you find it,
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`20· · · ·Mr. Kelly.
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`21· · · · · · · · · MR. KELLY:· Which one?
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`22· · · · · · · · · MR. CLIFFORD:· The control numbers are
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`23· · · ·33 and 34.
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`24· · · · · · · · · MR. KELLY:· Oh, I see.· Yes.
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`25· · · · · · · · · MR. CLIFFORD:· It's from the pto.gov
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`·1· · · ·website.
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`·2· · · · · · · · · MR. KELLY:· Is this a new exhibit?
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`·3· · · · · · · · · MR. CLIFFORD:· I don't think so. I
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`·4· · · ·think we sent it to you.· It may have been
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`·5· · · ·intermixed.· I labeled it separately.· It was
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`·6· · · ·behind one of the other letters, I think.
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`·7· · · · · · · · · MR. KELLY:· My question was, did you
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`·8· · · ·give it an exhibit number?
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`·9· · · · · · · · · MR. CLIFFORD:· Six.
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`10· · · · · · · · · MR. KELLY:· I didn't hear that.· There
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`11· · · ·is an echo every once in a while.· Exhibit 6 is 33
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`12· · · ·and 34?
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`13· · · · · · · · · MR. CLIFFORD:· Yes.
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`14· · · · · · · · · MR. KELLY:· Okay.· Thank you.
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`15· · · · · · · · · MR. CLIFFORD:· Okay.
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`16· ·BY MR. CLIFFORD:
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`17· ·Q.· Mr. Gould, handing you what's been marked
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`18· · · ·Exhibit 6, I'll describe that as a two-page
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`19· · · ·printout from a Patent and Trademark Office
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`20· · · ·website.· Are you familiar with that?
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`21· ·A.· Yes.
`
`22· ·Q.· What is Exhibit 6?
`
`23· ·A.· Well, it shows that we had asked for an extension
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`24· · · ·to oppose their application, and it shows that they
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`25· · · ·did abandon the application after its publication.
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`·1· ·Q.· And what time frame is shown on Exhibit 6 regarding
`
`·2· · · ·when they abandoned their application?
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`·3· ·A.· It was abandoned September 27, 1995.
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`·4· · · · · · · · · MR. CLIFFORD:· If I might have just a
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`·5· · · ·moment to confer with Mr. Erbele --
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`·6· · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· I'll be here.
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`·7· · · · · · · · · MR. CLIFFORD:· -- we'll be able to wrap
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`·8· · · ·things up.· So we'll just go off the record here
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`·9· · · ·for a second, David.· We'll leave the conference
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`10· · · ·call connected and I'll step out of the room and
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`11· · · ·Mr. Gould is going to stay in the room.
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`12· · · · · · · · · THE WITNESS:· And I'll keep quiet.
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`13· · · · · · · · · MR. CLIFFORD:· Okay?
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`14· · · · · · · · · MR. KELLY:· Okay.
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`15
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`16· · · · · (A brief recess was had in the proceedings)
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`17
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`18· ·BY MR. CLIFFORD:
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`19· ·Q.· Well, Mr. Gould, I'll just ask you if there is
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`20· · · ·anything you would add to your testimony, anything
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`21· · · ·you want to clear up from what we've covered today,
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`22· · · ·or are you satisfied with your testimony?
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`23· ·A.· Well, I'm not sure that you should get me started
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`24· · · ·on a long discourse of my long association with the
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`25· · · ·firm.
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`·1· ·Q.· I'll just ask you this.· Is the name Merchant &
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`·2· · · ·Gould of importance to you?
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`·3· ·A.· Well, of course, yes.
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`·4· ·Q.· And is the trademark M&G of importance to you?
`
`·5· ·A.· Yes.
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`Pro-Systems Court Reporting· · · ·612.823.2100Pro-Systems Court Reporting· · · ·612.823.2100
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`Gould, John D. -· 05/07/2014Gould, John D. -· 05/07/2014
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`Page 56
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`·1· ·STATE OF MINNESOTA )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · )· ·ss.
`·2· ·COUNTY OF DAKOTA· ·)
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`·3· · · · Be it known that I took the foregoing deposition
`· · ·of JOHN D. GOULD;
`·4
`· · · · · That I was then and there a notary public in and
`·5· ·for the County of Dakota, State of Minnesota, and by
`· · ·virtue thereof I was duly authorized to administer an
`·6· ·oath;
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`·7· · · · That the witness was by me first duly sworn to
`· · ·testify to the whole truth concerning the matter in
`·8· ·controversy aforesaid;
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`·9· · · · That the foregoing transcript is a true and
`· · ·correct transcript of my stenographic notes in said
`10· ·matter;
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