Proceeding
`Party
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`Correspondence
`Address
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`Submission
`Filer's Name
`Filer's e-mail
`Signature
`Date
`Attachments
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`Trademark Trial and Appeal Board Electronic Filing System. http://estta.uspto.gov
`ESTTA581662
`ESTTA Tracking number:
`01/14/2014
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`Filing date:
`IN THE UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE TRADEMARK TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`91203200
`Plaintiff
`Abita Brewing Company, LLC
`RAYMOND G AREAUX
`CARVER DARDEN KORETZKY TESSIER ET AL
`1100 POYDRAS STREET, SUITE 3100
`NEW ORLEANS, LA 70163
`UNITED STATES
`gordy@carverdarden.com, areaux@carverdarden.com
`Testimony For Plaintiff
`Raymond G. Areaux (#33,643)
`areaux@carverdarden.com
`/Theodore S. Owers III/
`01/14/2014
`Opposer's Notice of Filing of Trial Testimony of Dr. Geoffrey T. Fong.pdf(12636
`bytes )
`Fong-Corrected Deposition Transcript-11-20-13.pdf(2835122 bytes )
`Exhibit 58.pdf(112728 bytes )
`Exhibit 59.pdf(4349536 bytes )
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`OPPOSER’S NOTICE OF FILING OF
`TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL TESTIMONY OF DR. GEOFFREY T. FONG
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`Please take notice that pursuant to Trademark Rule 2.125(c), Abita Brewing Company,
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`LLC, Opposer herein, is hereby filing with the Board a certified transcript of the testimony
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`deposition of Opposer’s expert witness Dr. Geoffrey T. Fong, together with associated Exhibits
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`58 and 59 introduced into evidence during the deposition. This testimony deposition was taken
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`on June 11, 2013.
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`Respectfully submitted,
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`/Theodore S. Owers III/
`RAYMOND G. AREAUX (Reg. #33,643)
`THEODORE (TODD) S. OWERS III
`EMILY L. GORDY (Reg. # 66,917)
`Carver, Darden, Koretzky, Tessier,
` Finn, Blossman & Areaux, L.L.C.
`1100 Poydras Street, Suite 3100
`New Orleans, Louisiana 70163
`Telephone:
`504-585-3803
`Facsimile:
`504-585-3801
`E-mail:
`areaux@carverdarden.com
`Attorneys for Opposer, Abita Brewing Company, LLC
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`
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`Dated: January 14, 2014
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`Opposer’s Notice of Filing of Transcript of Trial Testimony of Dr. Geoffrey T. Fong
`Abita Brewing Company, LLC v. Mother Earth Brewing, LLC
`Attorney Docket No. 21.17540
`
`Page 1 of 2
`
`Opposition No. 91203200
`Serial No. 85/294,167
`Filed via ESTTA
`
`IN THE UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE TRADEMARK TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`Opposition No.: 91203200
`*
`
`*
`Serial No. 85/294,167
`*
`
`*
`* Mark: SUNNY HAZE
`*
`
`*
`Goods: Beer; Brewed malt-based alcoholic
`*
`beverage in the nature of a beer
`
`Abita Brewing Company, LLC
`Opposer
`
`
` v.
`
`
`
`Mother Earth Brewing, LLC
`Applicant
`
`
`

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`4852-3601-2055, v. 1
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`CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE
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`I hereby certify that a true and complete copy of the foregoing Opposer’s Notice of Filing
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`of Transcript of Trial Testimony of Dr. Geoffrey T. Fong has been served on Applicant on
`January 14, 2014 by e-mailing said copy to counsel for Applicant, in accord with the parties’
`agreement, as follows:
`
`
`David W. Sar, Esq. (dsar@brookspierce.com)
`Rebecca L. Cage, Esq. (rcage@brookspierce.com)
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`/Theodore S. Owers III/
`Theodore S. Owers III
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`Opposer’s Notice of Filing of Transcript of Trial Testimony of Dr. Geoffrey T. Fong
`Abita Brewing Company, LLC v. Mother Earth Brewing, LLC
`Attorney Docket No. 21.17540
`
`Page 2 of 2
`
`Opposition No. 91203200
`Serial No. 85/294,167
`Filed via ESTTA
`
`

`
`DEPOSITION TRANSCRIPT OF:
`
`Dr. Geoffrey T. Fong
`
`DATE TAKEN:
`
`6611112013
`
`CASE:
`
`Abita Brewing Company, LLC vs Mother Earth Brewing, LLC
`
`flfifiatedflfipofiing
`650 (Poycfm5 Street, Suite 2 61 0
`New Orfeans, L}! 70130
`
`(Pfione: 504568-91 I1
`
`1-877—568—911J
`
`Tax; 504-568-9110
`
`Emaifi pages@c§fi’i'[i'atec{repo1:ting.com
`’We5site.' ww'w.cg§‘ili'ated'reporting. com
`
`

`
`Dr. Geoffrey T. Pong
`
`6/11/2013
`
`T
`PAiTfdEm§qHigITEgD5gfl§E OFFICE
`BEFORE THE TRADEMARK TR3Aa. AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`Page 1
`
`OPPOSITION NO. 91203200
`SERIAL NO. 85/294.167
`MARK: SUNNY HAZE
`
`AaITA BREWING COMPANY, LLC, Opposer
`
`VERSUS
`MOTHER EARTH BREWING, LLC, A
`
`I‘
`pp scan
`De osition of GEOFFREY T. FONG,_Ph.D.,
`570 andbury Lane Waterloo, Ontario
`Canada N2T1Z5, taken in the offii:es_of
`Carver, Darden, Koretzify, Tessier, Finn,
`Blossman & Areaux on uesday,
`June 11, 2013.
`
`t
`
`APPEARANCES:
`
`CARVER, DARDEN, 1<ORETZKY,TE5SIER,
`FINN, BLOSSMAN R AREAux
`Attorne 5 at Law
`BY: RA MOND G. AREAux, Esquire
`1100 Poydras, Suite 3100
`New Orleans, Louisiana 70163
`ATTORNEYS FOR oPPosER
`
`Attorne S at Law
`BROOKS PIERCE
`2000 Renaissance Plaza
`BY: RE ECCA L. CAGE, Esquire
`230 North Elm Street
`_
`Greensboro, North Carolina 27401
`ATTORNEYS FOR APPLICANT
`{APPEARED VIA TELEPHONE)
`
`1 REPORTED BY:
`2
`N f‘(
`O%OT
`3
`gggistgre °i5Jrrocfg‘sE.3 i8i'r1tE|rRep0l't€F
`4.
`
`Page 2
`
`S
`6
`7
`a
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`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`3.7
`3.8
`3.9
`20
`21
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`25
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`Page 3
`ABITA BREWING COMPANY, LLC, Opposer
`V5,
`
`MOTHER EARTH BREWING, LLC, Applicant
`Deposition of GEOFFREY T. FONG, Ph.D.
`Taken on Iune 11, 2013
`
`EXHIBIT INDEX
`
`_
`_
`Opposer's Notice of Testimony
`Deposition of Dr. Geoffrey T. Fong
`Results of a Survey to Measure the
`Likelihood of Confusion Caused By the
`Names of Competing Craft Beers,
`Prepared by Geoffrey T. Fong, Ph.D.,
`dated December 18, 2012
`
`INDEX
`
`Page 4
`
`Page, Line
`
`8
`8
`
`7
`17
`
`Exhibit #58
`Exhibit #59
`
`EXAMINATION BY MR. AREAUX
`EXAMINATION BY MS. CAGE
`EXAMINATION BY MR. AREAUX
`
`7
`148
`178
`
`2
`25
`11
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`‘
`
`1
`2
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`3
`4
`5
`6
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`9 58
`H 0
`H H
`I-4M
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`59
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`13
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`25
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`
`Affiliated Reporting
`
`Page: 1
`
`

`
`Dr. Geoffrey T. Pong
`
`Page 5
`
`6/11.l20l3
`
`Page 7
`
`S T I P U L A TI 0 N
`
`It is stipulated and agreed by and
`between counsel for the parties hereto that
`the deposition of the aforementioned
`witness is hereby being taken under the
`Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, for all
`purposes, in accordance with law;
`That the formalities of reading and
`signing are specifically not waived;
`That the formalities of seaiing,
`certification and filing are specifically
`waived;
`
`That all obiections, save those as to
`the form of the question and the
`responsiveness of the answer, are hereby
`reserved until such time as this
`
`deposition, or any part thereof, may be
`used or sought to be used in evidence.
`Di:
`:42
`bit
`>15
`
`LINDY ROOT, Registered Professional
`Reporter, and Certified Court Reporter, in
`and for the Parish of Orleans, State of
`Louisiana, officiated in administering the
`oath to the witness.
`
`and sign.
`2
`2 EXAMINATION BY MR. AREAUX:
`
`3 Q. Okay. So good morning, Dr. Fong.
`4
`Could you please state your full name for
`5
`the record?
`
`6 A. My first name is Geoffrey, G-E-0-F-F-R-E-Y.
`7
`My middle name is capital T-E-H, hyphen,
`a
`capital C-H~I-
`-H. 63;.
`9
`Fong, F-O-N-G, is my last name.
`10 Q. Okay. And do you go by any other names?
`11 A. Geoff.
`
`12 Q. Okay.
`13 A. No other aliases.
`
`14 Q. Okay. And what is your address?
`15 A. My home address is 570 Sandbury
`16
`S-A-N—D—B—U-R-Y, Lane, Waterloo, Ontario,
`1'?
`Canada. The postal code is N2T1Z5.
`13 Q.Thank you.
`19
`And how old are you?
`20 A. Trick question.
`
`56. Turning 57 in August.
`21
`22 Q. Okay. All right.
`23
`I think I will mark as our first
`24
`exhibit -- this will be Exhibit #58 -- the
`25
`o oser's notice of testimon deosition of
`
`Page 6
`
`Page 8
`
`GEOFFREY T. FONG, Ph.D.,
`after having been first duly sworn by the
`above—mentioned court reporter, did testify
`as follows:
`MR. AREAUX:
`
`And for housekeeping, we have
`Rebecca Cage on the telephone for
`this interview.
`
`This is Ray Areaux.
`And, again, Rebecca, we have the
`understanding that no one else is in
`the room with you, no one else is
`participating by telephone.
`Correct?
`MS. CAGE:
`That's correct.
`MR. AREAUX:
`
`Okay. And then if that changes
`you wili immediately notify me.
`Correct?
`MS. CAGE:
`I will.
`MR. AREAUX:
`
`Okay. And obviously the witness,
`I Toi
`nw re ' h rih
`
`I
`
`1
`2
`
`3
`4
`5
`5
`
`Dr. Geoffrey T. Fong.
`MR. AREAUX:
`
`And, Rebecca, I assume you have a
`copy of that. Correct?
`MS. CAGE:
`I do.
`
`(Exhibit #58 was marked for
`7
`identification.)
`B
`9 EXAMINATION BY MR. AREAUX:
`
`10 Q. Okay. And then, Dr. Fong, I'm handing you a
`11
`document.
`
`Do you recognize that document?
`12
`13 A. Yes, I do.
`14 Q. Okay. And I have marked that as Exhibit #59.
`15
`And what is this?
`16
`What is this document?
`
`17
`18
`
`(Exhibit #59 was marked for
`identification.)
`
`This document is my report of December 18,
`19
`2012. The title is Results of a Survey to
`2
`Measure the Likeiihood of Confusion Caused By
`21
`the Names of Competing Craft Beers.
`22
`23 Q. Okay.
`24
`MR. AREAUX:
`25
`And Rebecca Iassume ou have our
`
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`13
`14
`15
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`17
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`15
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`
`24
`35
`
`Affiliated Reporting
`
`Page: 2
`
`

`
`Dr. Geoffrey 'I‘. Pong
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`
`copy of that. Correct?
`MS. CAGE:
`i do.
`EXAMINATION BY MR. AREAUX:
`
`Page 9
`
`5 Q. Okay. Dr. Fong, can you please teli me about
`5
`your educationai background?
`'7
`If you want to turn to -- I think it's
`3
`page -- Oh, It's page 1 after page 16 of
`9
`Exhibit #59.
`
`That's your CV there. Right?
`10
`11 A. Yes. Right.
`
`If you just want to walk me through
`12 Q. Okay.
`13
`your educational background.
`
`14 A. I was an undergraduate at Stanford University.
`15
`I graduated in 1973 with a bachelor's of arts
`
`16
`17
`
`18
`19
`20
`
`in psychology with departmental honors and
`distinction.
`
`Then I entered the Ph.D. program in social
`psychoiogy at the University of Michigan, Ann
`Arbor, graduating with a Ph.D. in 1984.
`
`21 Q. Okay. And can you teli me anything about the
`22
`University of Michigan's social psychology
`23
`program?
`
`2-1 A. Right. The University of Michigan is one of
`25
`the to s chology programs in the world and
`Page 10
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`1
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`5
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`in the United States, of course. The sociai
`
`psychology program is renowned, especially
`during the time that I was a graduate student,
`as being a top research institution and whose
`
`social psychologists on faculty were among the
`most well cited and distinguished members of
`that profession.
`
`In addition, the University of Michigan
`a
`also has considerable strengths in social
`9
`science research methods, including survey
`10
`research methods, and, in fact, I took such
`11
`courses while a graduate student.
`12
`And the world renowned Survey Research
`3.3
`Center at the Institute of Social Research,
`14
`where I had my office on the fifth fioor, the
`15
`SRC, Survey Research Center, was on the third
`15
`floor. So I gained considerable training in
`17
`survey methods at the time that I was doing my
`13
`social psychology program.
`19
`20 Q. Okay.
`Including survey methods about consumer
`21
`perceptions?
`22 A. Yes. I would say that the actual course work
`
`23
`24
`25
`
`that I took was very general with respect to
`surveying methods, how to ask survey questions
`properly, and there were some examples of
`
`Affiliated Reporting
`
`6/1 l/2013
`
`Page 11
`
`those in the consumer area.
`
`But more generally in social psychology,
`because we deal with attitudes, opinions,
`perceptions, whether or not of people or
`objects are easily extrapolated at times to
`consumer goods.
`I got a very good solid
`technical and professional training in that
`area, as I did with the experimental work that
`I was doing in social psychology.
`Q. Thank you.
`MR. AREAUX:
`Off the record here.
`
`{Off the record.)
`EXAMINATION BY MR. AREAUX:
`
`Q. So can you then tell me after receiving your
`Ph.D., your sort of academic, you know,
`professional career here and take us through
`that?
`
`A. Yes. I was a faculty member at Northwestern
`University, which is a really strong
`psychology program at the time and certainly
`today. So I was an assistant professor of
`psychology at Northwestern.
`Q. And the dates there?
`A. The dates were 1984 to 1988.
`
`Page 12
`I actually arrived at Northwestern in the
`
`fall of 1983, but since I wasjust
`about -~ hadn't quite finished my Ph.D., I was
`still a lecturer. I didn't happen to put that
`on my academic positions but, you know, in
`1983 to 1984 I was a lecturer in psychology at
`Northwestern University.
`
`Then during my last year at Northwestern,
`while I stiil held that faculty position, I
`was invited to be a visiting professor,
`assistant professor at Princeton University,
`and I did that from 1987 to 1988.
`
`Then toward the end of 1938, the Princeton
`faculty wanted me to stay, but I actually got
`an offer from the University of Waterloo in
`Canada, which at the time and still today is a
`leading program in social psychology, and I
`jumped at this chance because some of the
`
`social psychologists at the University of
`Waterloo at the time -- many have retired
`now -- are among the best social! psychologists
`in the world, and so I jumped at the chance to
`join them.
`
`So I went to the University of Waterloo in
`1988 first as a visitin assistant rofessor
`
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`

`
`Dr. Geoffrey T. Fong
`
`Page 13
`and then a tenured track position starting in
`1990.
`
`1
`2
`
`During that time I had struck up a
`3
`research collaboration with colleagues at
`4
`Princeton, a collaboration that continues to
`5
`this day, where I was doing work on HIV
`6
`prevention among inner city adolescents in
`7
`Philadelphia and New Jersey and other places
`8
`in that area, and so I continued to work at
`9
`Princeton while still at the University of
`10
`11 Waterloo.
`
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`1'7
`
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`So I was officially a visiting research
`collaborator for five years at the psychology
`department in Princeton University.
`Then I took a sabbatical -- I'm just going
`through my academic positions now.
`qlb %.
`I took an academic sabbatical inygks a
`
`visiting scholar back at Stanford in the
`psychology department.
`In the meantime I had gotten tenure in
`1993, associate professor with tenure, and
`then more recently attained the status of full
`professor of psychology in 2007.
`The last position -- or rather the top
`osition in m CV abbreviated is as senior
`Page 14
`
`investigator at the Ontario Institute for
`1
`cancer Research. That is a prestigious
`2
`position that confers upon me -— since I
`3
`started in 2007 -- $280,000 a year for now.
`4
`Weii, an initial period of five years, but
`5
`ultimately ten years, $280,000 a year of
`5
`discretionary research funding to assist in my
`7
`extensive global research.
`8
`And that takes us through my academic
`9
`positions.
`10
`11 Q. Okay.
`If you can tell me a littie bit more
`12
`about some of your experience as a researcher.
`13
`You might turn to page 2 of your -— 2 of
`14
`16 of your report there.
`15
`So page 2 --
`16 A. Oh, 2 --
`17 Q. -- of 16.
`13 A. -- of the report itself?
`19 Q. Right.
`20 A. Okay.
`21 Q. And in particular this paragraph here.
`22 A. Yes.
`
`23 Q. If you could maybe tell us about that or read
`24
`into the record.
`25 A. Ri - ht.
`
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`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
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`18
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`20
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`22
`23
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`25
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`Page 15
`
`Q. Whatever is more convenient.
`A. Yes. In my 30 years now as a researcher I
`have been a team member or have led a diverse
`
`set of research projects and programs.
`I have conducted a wide range of studies
`with different methodologies, including lab
`experiments, experiments conducted in the
`field, as well as surveys that relate to human
`
`judgment and decision making in everyday life.
`I have engaged in multi-method evaluation
`studies of the impact of behavioral
`interventions to reduce risky sexual behavior
`among youth.
`I have conducted both lab and fieid
`
`experiments as well as surveys on the impact
`of alcohol intoxication on important social
`behavior, such as drinking and driving and
`risky sex.
`
`I have conducted research on the impact of
`media depictions of smoking on promoting
`favorable attitudes and opinions toward
`smoking among smokers and also among
`nonsmokers.
`
`‘ I have done -- conducted studies on
`secondhand smoke also called environmental
`Page 16
`tobacco smoke. This has included measurements
`
`of air quality using air quality monitoring
`devices, even biomarkers of tobacco smoke
`
`uptake through saliva or urine, as well as
`surveys.
`
`I have conducted research using a diverse
`set of methods, both experimental methods and
`survey methods, in other domains of heaith
`behavior.
`
`But over the past —-- over a decade of my
`research life I have been involved in a major
`global health project known as the
`
`International Tobacco Control Policy
`Evaluation Project, also known as the ITC
`Project.
`I founded this now massive research
`
`project and serve as Its chief principal
`investigator. This is a large international
`collaboration of over 100 researchers across
`
`22 countries who have come together to conduct
`surveys which are cohort or longitudinal
`surveys of adult smokers and tobacco users in
`each of these 22 countries, to evaluate the
`impact, not only behavioral impact, but also
`psychosocial, perce - tions, attitudes,
`
`Affiliated Reporting
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`Dr. Geoffrey T. Pong
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`Page 17
`opinions, perceptions of risk, of the national
`level tobacco control policies of the world's
`first health treaty, the World Health
`Organization's Framework Convention on Tobacco
`Control, also known as the FCTC.
`
`This is a highly successful treaty in that
`over 170 countries have already ratified it,
`
`and therefore are obligated to implement
`tobacco control policies, like smoke free
`laws, graphic warning labels, bans or
`restrictions on tobacco advertising,
`promotion, and sponsorship, higher taxation
`and so on.
`These 22 countries are represented -- are
`inhabited by over 50 percent of the world's
`population and over 70 percent of the world's
`tobacco users.
`The ITC Project that I founded and head
`now is the only research project that is
`actually evaluating the impact of this treaty.
`Therefore the evidence base from our many,
`many studies on the impact of policies have
`been used by many, many countries throughout
`the world, because countries need an evidence
`base for them to be passing and implementing
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`1
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`as Cognitive PS\lCi1DiOg1ta€gA.iEl’%g0cl,Ié‘?€_Iv8f
`Experimental Psychology, he leading jour al
`in the field of tobacco control, and many
`others like Bulletin of the World Health
`organization.
`
`I have also been very, very active myself,
`and also with my students and with
`
`coliaborators over all the world, having given
`8
`over 500 -— well, I think it's now over 500
`9
`presentations at scientific meetings,
`10
`university colioquia, and many policy making
`11
`forums, including over 80 invited talks.
`12
`These policy making forums included health
`13
`ministers. So, for example, one meeting of
`14
`many health ministers in the EU talking about
`15
`smoke free laws that I was presenting I"l'C
`16
`research demonstrating that smoke free laws,
`17
`if implemented properly, do indeed work, and,
`15
`in fact, that meeting was significant in that
`19
`a number of countries who had not implemented
`20
`smoke free laws heard our results and were
`21
`influenced by it.
`22
`Now, of course --
`23
`24 Q, The Eu is the European union?
`25 A. I'm sor
`. The European Union.
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`Page 20
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`these kinds of policies, especially in the
`context of the fact that there's a tobacco
`
`1 Q. Okay.
`2 A. Yes.
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`industry that is giving them wrong information
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`with respect to the possible impact of those
`policies and trying to steer the governments
`toward less effective policies.
`So in my work, all of which involves
`
`surveys, governments all over the world and
`3
`organizations like the WHO —-
`9
`10 Q. World Health Organization?
`
`11 A. World Health Organization.
`12 Q. Okay.
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`3
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`4
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`6
`7
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`8
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`10
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`so our work has had impact ail over the
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`world and important places like China now,
`places like Thailand and Malaysia, India,
`Bangladesh, throughout the European Union,
`South America now.
`
`I have also contributed to very important
`high level government reports which -- in
`which I have presented and described the
`
`research we have conducted on the ITC Project.
`This has involved contributions to the
`
`13 A. Are using, paying attention to, and discussing 13
`14
`with me and our research team all over the
`14
`15
`world the results of these survey based ITC
`15
`15
`findings.
`16
`1'7
`I have been very productive in my academic 1'?
`1.8
`work. I think this is -- it's old now, but I
`18
`19
`publish now over 184 -— I think I’ve published
`19
`20
`185 journal articles, and these have included
`20
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`2007 report by the Institute of Medicine, part
`of the National Academy of Sciences known
`as -- the title of that report was Ending the
`Tobacco Problem, a Blueprint For the Nation.
`We also put together -- that is the ITC
`Project team, including me -- put together the
`2009 Handbook on Cancer Prevention from the
`wl-lO's -- that is the World Health
`
`articles appearing in very high prestige
`21
`scientific journals, including Science,
`22
`JAMA -- that's the Journal of the American
`23
`24 Medical Association —- American Journal of
`25
`Public Health some 5 cholo 'ournals such
`Affiliated Reporting
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`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
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`organization's International Agency for
`Research on Cancer, known as IARC, I-A-R-C.
`That was entitled Methods for Evaluating
`Tobacco control Policies, which is known
`widel as the compendium of best ractices now
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`Dr. Geoffrey T. Pong
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`5/11/2013
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`Page 21
`for the evaluation of tobacco control policies
`and is also used as a handbook for the
`evaluation of health policies more generally.
`I contributed most majorly to the
`important chapter on research design,
`including experimental methods that would be
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`used in the contextofevaluation studies,
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`including those experimental methods that
`would be used in surveys of which the case
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`Page 23
`from people could only be attributed to what
`you had varied if everything else, ceteris
`pa;-ibus -- or ceteris paribus -- you know,
`that is everything else stayed the same.
`So that is the hallmark of an experimental
`method, that you manipulate that some
`‘
`
`people -- for example, i a5etween-§ubje 11?’
`
`,
`experiment, some people get one conditi
`other people get another condition that varies
`
`1
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`5
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`7
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`9
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`before us, I conducted an experiment within
`10
`the context of a survey.
`11
`12 Q- 50 When YOU SBY flllerlmenliai methods: C31‘! YOU
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`elaborate on thatjust a little bit?
`13
`14 A. Right.
`
`10
`11
`12
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`13
`14
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`in a critically important way from the first,
`and then the responses are, you know,
`collected, and then if there's a difference in
`
`those responses, that can only be attributable
`to what was different about those two stimuli.
`
`15 Q. What do you mean by experimental methods just
`15
`for the panel?
`17 A. Weli, in social science research, like other
`13
`fields -- professional fields of endeavor, the
`19
`use of certain terms have a different
`20
`technical -- important technical meaning that
`
`15 Q. And that is the experiment that is set up --
`16 A. That's the experiment that is set up.
`17 Q. -- in the survey?
`13 A. Exactly.
`19
`And so that's the meaning of experiment.
`20 Q. Okay.
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`21
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`1
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`2
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`is different from that which is used in
`@3/
`everyday life.
`519’
`So in everyday life we use“experiment\as a
`very different way. Like you're doing an
`experiment that is kind of like just testing
`
`21 A. And there's another, you know, quaiification,
`22
`and that is that you are randomly assigning
`23
`people to get, you know, one condition or the
`24
`other.
`25 . Oka . Good.
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`Page 22
`something out, but not really perhaps serious
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`1 A. That's what I mean in the domain of
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`Page 24
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`about it, seeing if it kind of works.
`That is the not the meaning of
`experimental methods as used in the context
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`experimental methods.
`2
`3 Q. Okay.
`4 A. which is, again, very different from the use
`
`*9“
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`that I'm talking about here, in the context of
`5
`research.
`6
`Experimental methods are those methods
`7
`that actually emanate from John Stuart Mill's
`8
`9 B Method ofklgic, an 1843 treatise in which he
`10
`talked about the quote, unquote, method of
`11
`differences where one could make causal
`12
`judgments.
`13
`If you took one -- and I'm using a more
`
`of the word experiment in everyday life.
`5
`6 Q. Okay. Thank you.
`7 A. I should also say just one more thing, and
`8
`that is that this is the hallmark of the
`9
`scientific method, and the experimental method
`10
`is used, of course, in physics, chemistry,
`11
`biology, all endeavors, including consumer
`12
`perceptions, which is the case we have in
`13
`front of us.
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`3.6
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`13
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`modern work here -- stimulus or object and
`then you compared it to what happens when you
`present people with a second object or
`
`14 Q. Okay. Thank you.
`15
`I think we can return -— I appreciate
`16
`that.
`
`stimulus that varies in some way from the
`
`1'?
`
`If we could return to your resumé.
`
`I
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`first one, and whatever you varied in the
`presentation of those two objects or stimuli
`would be your -- and I'm now modernizing --
`John Stuart Mill didn't talk about this --
`that would be the independent variable or the
`manipulated variable that you used in the
`experiment.
`Then any res onses that ou would have
`
`think you were talking about the ITC Project.
`18
`19 A. Right.
`20
`In addition to my contributions in the
`21 methods as I just described of tobacco control
`22
`research evaluation, I have contributed to a
`23
`chapter in the recent 2012 U.S. Surgeon
`24
`General's Report on Youth Smoking.
`25
`I am also one of the three editors that
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`Affiliated Reporting
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`Dr. Geoffrey T. Fong
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`Page 25
`were selected by the U5. National Cancer
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`literature.
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`6/ll:'20l3
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`Page 2?
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`1
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`Institute and the world Health Organization to
`edit a forthcoming monograph.
`And the title is slightly different than
`that in my report. It's the Economics of
`Tobacco and Tobacco Control.
`
`7 Q. Now, you said you were selected.
`2
`So you were invited?
`
`9 A. I was invited. There's no tryout period.
`10
`Because of my background in tobacco
`11
`control policy evaluation, because of my role —
`12
`on the ITC Project, and because of my
`13
`general I guess reputation in the field
`1-1
`internationally, I was invited to be one of
`15
`the three editors of this economics book
`
`16
`17
`
`despite the fact that I myself am not an
`economist.
`
`13 Q. And this is a document —- a large document.
`19
`1,000, 1500 pages?
`
`20 A. Yeah. It's going to be between 1500 and 2,000
`21
`pages.
`
`22
`23
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`24
`25
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`1
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`It's part of a very prestigious monograph
`series on tobacco control that has been
`
`ongoing from the U.S. National Cancer
`Institute for I would sa about 15 ears or
`Page 26
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`so.
`
`And they partnered with —- NCI, the
`2
`National Cancer Institute, partnered for this
`3
`important handbook monograph with the WHO, the
`4
`5 World Health Organization, because of the
`6
`importance that economics are playing in
`'7
`governments when they are considering tobacco
`8
`control policies.
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`So therefore this is a much anticipated
`monograph. A similar monograph that was
`published in 1999 basically set the field
`going and got governments to pay attention to
`tobacco control policies, including ministries
`of finance. Not only just ministries of
`health. So that was 1999.
`
`This monograph is an update of all the
`work that has been done since that time,
`focusing where the tobacco epidemic is the
`most dangerous in the future, in low and
`middle income countries, and we have compiled
`the massive and growing literature and
`summarized it with respect to the economics of
`tobacco use and tobacco control in low and
`middle income countries as -- with as much
`
`emphasis as we can have from the existing
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`Affiliated Reporting
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`Q. And a significant part of that monograph is
`about consumer perceptions?
`A. Yes.
`
`In fact, if you look at the tobacco
`control policies that are part of the
`
`Framework Convention on Tobacco Control, of
`which the ITC Project is evaluating, many of
`them are at the core of it having to do with
`trying to change behavior through the change
`of perceptions of the product. In this case
`tobacco products.
`So, for example -- In using the U.S. as an
`example, the Department of Justice case
`
`against the tobacco industry a number of years
`ago, and whose opinion -- Judge Kessler, I
`want to say, wrote in her massive opinion
`against the tobacco industry, showing how the
`tobacco industry had manipulated perceptions
`of the harmfulness of the products, that is
`cigarettes, with light and mild cigarettes,
`for example, which although consumers believed
`them to be less harmful, they are, in fact,
`not at all less harmful, a fact that the
`industry has known for many decades prior to
`Page 28
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`the recent ban.
`
`So through their packaging, through their
`presentation of the product, light cigarettes,
`through the coloration of the pack, through
`advertising, the tobacco industry has been
`able to effectively convince people, smokers,
`that light mild cigarettes offer a less
`harmful alternative.
`
`That kind of -- So therefore policies
`designed to eliminate light and mild are in
`
`the Framework Convention of Tobacco Control,
`and countries therefore are trying to pass
`policies explicitly designed to reduce those
`consumer perceptions of less harmfulness of
`light and mild cigarettes, and therefore
`
`instead of continuing to smoke light and mild
`cigarettes, there will be, according to the
`
`potential for the policy, more people quitting
`rather than believing that they are smoking
`less harmful cigarettes and staying smoking.
`so that's ail about consumer perceptions.
`All about the relationship between consumer
`perceptions and future behavior.
`
`Q. And in going back -- or in line with that, in
`our evaluation of health olicies and the
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`Dr. Geoffrey T. Fang
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`6/i1I2GI3
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`Page 29
`IARC and the methods, I understand that much
`
`of that work was on designing survey methods
`or coming up with the survey methods.
`Can you explain?
`A. Yes. when we started the ITC Project it was
`
`really just my idea, and then I got prominent
`people, researchers in —- originally in three
`other countries, in the U5. -- remember I'm
`
`in Canada —— the U.S., the U.K., and Australia
`to listen to my idea, and every one of them
`said, this is an incredible idea, how can I
`help, how can I join this.
`At the time we had no survey at all. So I
`created a draft of this survey, the vestiges
`of which remain to this day, and I led that
`process of creating this now massive survey
`being conducted, you know, in 22 countries,
`you know, with the nuances that one needs to
`
`use with respect to the proper wording, the
`relationship between the conceptual model that
`drove our research questions, and how they
`would be properly asked.
`Q. You mean clue to cultural differences?
`A. Cultural differences.
`
`And to this da one of the challen es is
`Page 30
`actually trying to figure out how to ask the
`same kinds of questions across different
`countries, different cultures, and yet, you
`know, strike a balance between the kind of
`
`cultural sensitivity that might attend
`certain, you know, concepts, like depression
`in China. You know, we can't ask depression
`in China the same way that we ask depression
`questions in the U.S., because ehi11a"wil| not
`admit it.
`‘?’+~ Um““5¢
`so in China we have used parts of existing
`depression surveys and focused more on the
`physiological impact of depression, the
`physiological markers of depression, like are
`you not getting much sleep, are you having
`
`trouble sleeping or eating at times,
`trouble -- You know, so those are ones that
`are correlated with depression and yet there
`are different ones that are correlated -- You
`
`know, you can actually ask people in the u.s.,
`are you depressed, and people can answer that
`question or are willing to answer that
`question.
`so it's really a fine sort of a balance
`between tr in to fiure out
`ou know how to
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`Affiliated Reporting
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`Page 31
`measure the same concept with the cultural
`diversity, because overall our goal is to make
`sure that our data across the 22 countries are
`
`indeed comparable and we can actually have
`meaningful cross country comparisons, because
`that's what the countries wa