`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL APPEALS BOARD
`- - - - - - - - - - - -x
`ETON PHARMACEUTICALS, :
`INC, :
` Petitioner, :
`v. : No. PGR 2020-00086
`EXELA PHARMA SCIENCES, : Patent No.
`LLC, : 10,583,155
` Patent Owner. :
`- - - - - - - - - - - -x
`
` Telephonic Conference before
` HEARING EXAMINER ULRIKE JENKS
` HEARING EXAMINER SUSAN MITCHELL
` HEARING EXAMINER CHRISTOPHER PAULRAJ
` Monday, February 8, 2021
` 11:30 a.m.
`
`Reported by:
`Cassandra E. Ellis, RPR
`Job No.: SY001343
`
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` Telephone conference, held before
`HEARING EXAMINER ULRIKE JENKS; SUSAN
`MITCHELL and CHRISTOPHER PAULRAJ pursuant to
`agreement, before Cassandra E. Ellis,
`Certified Shorthand Reporter - Hawaii,
`Certified Shorthand Reporter - Virginia,
`Certified Court Reporter - Washington,
`Registered Professional Reporter and Notary
`Public.
`
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` A P P E A R A N C E S
` ON BEHALF OF PETITIONER:
` RALPH GABRIC, ESQUIRE (via phone)
` JUDY HE, ESQUIRE (via phone)
` HAYNES and BOONE, LLP
` 180 N LaSalle Street
` Suite 2215
` Chicago, Illinois 60601
` (312) 216-1632
` Ralph.gabric@haynesboone.com
` Judy.He@haynesboone.com
`
` ON BEHALF OF PATENT OWNER:
` DOROTHY WHELAN, ESQUIRE (via phone)
` FISH & RICHARDSON
` 3200 RBC Plaza
` 60 South Sixth Street
` Minneapolis, Minnesota 55402
` (612) 337-2509
` Whelan@fr.com
`
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` C O N T E N T S
`PROCEEDINGS PAGE
` 5
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`Page 4
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` E X H I B I T S
` (none)
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
` EXAMINER JENKS: Good morning.
` MR. GABRIC: Good morning.
` HEARING EXAMINER JENKS: Good
` morning. This is conference call
` for PGR 2020-0086, involving US
` Patent No. 10,583,155.
` So I'm Judge Jenks, and I'm
` joined -- with me -- joining me on
` this conference call is Judge
` Mitchell, Judge Paulraj is also on
` the panel, but he is in another
` meeting right now. He may or may
` not join us during this conference
` call. If he joins us then I will
` let you know.
` So maybe we can --
` EXAMINER RICE: This is Judge
` Paulraj. I'm on the call. I'm
` joining from a cell phone, but I
` will mute myself, but I am on the
` call.
` EXAMINER JENKS: Excellent.
` Thank you so much.
` So can we have roll call?
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` We'll begin with the appearances of
` counsel. Who do I have on the call
` for petitioner and who will be
` speaking?
` MR. GABRIC: Good morning,
` Your Honors, you have Ralph Gabric
` on the call for petitioner, and I
` will be speaking on behalf of the
` petitioner.
` And we do have a court
` reporter on the line.
` EXAMINER JENKS: Excellent.
` And will you be filing a transcript
` of the call?
` MR. GABRIC: That's the plan,
` unless somebody tells me otherwise,
` yes.
` EXAMINER JENKS: Excellent.
` Thank you so much. We would
` appreciate it.
` Patent owner, who's on the
` call for patent owner?
` MS. HE: Your Honor, this is
` Judy He, also on the line for
` petitioner.
`
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` MR. GABRIC: Thank you, Judy.
` MS. HE: Mm-hmm.
` EXAMINER JENKS: Judy? Okay.
` Great.
` MS. WHELAN: And good morning,
` Your Honor, this is Dorothy Whelan.
` I'm appearing on behalf of the
` patent owner, and I will be
` speaking.
` EXAMINER JENKS: Excellent.
` Petitioner, so you requested
` this call seeking authorization to
` supplement -- supplement the record
` with a copy of the rehearing
` requests in two related PGR filings,
` and respond -- you wanted to respond
` to patent owner's particularity
` challenge and patent owner's
` preliminary response, and also to
` respond to patent owner's request
` for discussion or denial on the
` preliminary response.
` To make sure we're all on the
` same page, I just -- I went through
` the record, and what I saw is that
`
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` you had about three-week's time
` between patent owner filing its
` preliminary response in the related
` '064 PGR, and you filing your
` petition in this particular one.
` So with that in mind, can you
` please let us know why a response
` and supplementation is necessary at
` this point in time, petitioner?
` MR. GABRIC: Yes, Your Honor,
` and I just make sure I understood
` something, the current petition was
` filed after the preliminary response
` in the '453 patent petition; is that
` what you just said?
` EXAMINER JENKS: It's in
` the -- it's in the -- it's the PGR,
` it's 2020-00064.
` MR. GABRIC: Okay.
` EXAMINER JENKS: I can't
` remember --
` MR. GABRIC: Okay. Yeah, I
` think you're right. I think you're
` correct.
` EXAMINER JENKS: Those are --
`
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` those are -- you're wanting to --
` because you filed a hearing request
` in that, but I think in that one,
` and I can't remember the other,
` there's one more --
` MR. GABRIC: Right.
` EXAMINER JENKS: -- case.
` MR. GABRIC: Yeah, okay, well,
` yeah, let me -- let me address that,
` and -- and I think the Board has the
` context. There's -- there were
` three petitions filed to related
` patents, the '453 patent, the '155
` patent, and this petition was
` strict, the '719 patent.
` And the panel denied
` institution on the first two
` petitions, and what -- what we --
` what the patent owner has done is --
` and let me back up -- and we filed
` requests for rehearing in December,
` on the first two denials, where we
` explained where we thought the panel
` overlooked the misapprehended
` certain facts.
`
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` So in the current petition, in
` the patent owner's preliminary
` response, the patent owner has cited
` to those institution decisions
` denying institution as additional
` support as to why the Board should
` adopt the reasoning in those
` decisions in this current petition,
` and finding lack of expectation of
` success and a lack of particularity.
` And in fairness, we responded
` in our motions for rehearing, with
` respect to the first petition, the
` '064 petition, we explain why we
` think the Board made a mistake in
` finding a lack of expectation of
` success, and why the Board made a
` mistake in finding a lack of
` particularity.
` In our rehearing request on
` the second denial, the '068
` petition, that was based solely on
` lack of expectation of success. And
` we explained why we think the Board
` misapprehended, overlooked some
`
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` facts there.
` So basically what we have is a
` situation where the patent owner in
` the preliminary reply said, hey,
` look at your two institution
` decisions, you got it right there,
` apply the same reasoning in this
` petition.
` And all we think -- without
` prejudicing our motion for
` rehearing, and without mentioning
` the fact that we filed these motions
` for rehearing, so in fairness, to
` complete the record, we believe that
` the Board should have the benefit of
` our rehearing requests, where we
` explain why we think the Board made
` a mistake on expectation of success
` in particularity. And hopefully, in
` our view, that mistake is made again
` in this current petition. So in
` fairness, the record should be
` completed.
` So that's the primary reason
` why we're asking to supplement the
`
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` record with our request for
` rehearing. I hope I've answered
` your question.
` EXAMINER JENKS: Yes, you
` have.
` Patent owner, what is your
` position?
` MS. WHELAN: Thank you, Your
` Honor. I -- I have to confess that
` I found the request to supplement
` the record with a request for
` rehearing, which is an attorney
` argument, somewhat odd. It made me
` wonder whether those were not true
` requests for rehearing but rather
` including new arguments never before
` the Board in the first place,
` because this seemed to me to be the
` reason to supplement.
` But I don't -- but even beyond
` that, I don't see any need to
` supplement the record with those
` additional arguments. I mean,
` again, it's attorney argument, the
` Board is -- the Board is aware of
`
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` what the arguments are, so I don't
` see a need to -- to formally place
` those requests for rehearing in the
` record.
` EXAMINER JENKS: Okay.
` Petitioner, do you have any further
` response to what patent owner just
` let us know?
` MR. GABRIC: I don't agree
` with it, I can probably assume that,
` but, you know, in all seriousness,
` the -- it just -- it's just not
` right. It's not fair for the patent
` owner to say, yeah, look at your
` institutions decisions, apply that
` same reasoning here, not say
` anything about the fact that we
` filed motions for rehearing where we
` explained why maybe that reasoning
` isn't sound, and the portion of the
` benefit of that reasoning why we --
` of our argument, why we think that
` reasoning isn't sound.
` And in those rehearing
` statements we cite chapter and verse
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` where the arguments for the original
` petition, to the extent patent owner
` is suggesting there's something new
` in those rehearing requests, I
` disagree with that, certainly.
` EXAMINER JENKS: All right.
` Well, thank you for your
` information. Let me put the parties
` on hold. Let me refer with my panel
` here real quick.
` (Recess.)
` EXAMINER JENKS: Good morning.
` This is Judge Jenks. We're back. I
` just want to make sure the panelist
` is still here. The petitioner is
` still here?
` MR. GABREC: Petitioner is
` still here, yes.
` EXAMINER JENKS: Patent owner?
` MS. WHELAN: I'm still here.
` EXAMINER JENKS: Excellent.
` So we conferred, and we decided that
` we will allow the additional
` briefing, and bringing in the copies
` from your -- from the other PGRs.
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` Now, petitioner, we would like
` you to make sure, if you're wanting
` to bring in this information, please
` let us know where you have support
` for everything in your current
` petition, because we want to make
` sure you're not bringing in new
` arguments, that would not be fair.
` And we will give you ten pages
` for your petitioner's reply, and
` then we will also give patent owner
` sur reply, the same length, ten
` pages to respond, and each getting
` seven days. Does that work for the
` parties?
` MR. GABRIC: I'm just checking
` the calendar on seven days.
` EXAMINER JENKS: The seven
` days, I think, if I'm counting,
` starting count tomorrow would be --
` MR. GABRIC: Okay.
` EXAMINER JENKS: Is that the
` 16th?
` MR. GABRIC: 16th? Yeah.
` EXAMINER JENKS: Yeah, no, say
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` the 16th, that's, I guess, eight
` days, then.
` MR. GABRIC: Yeah.
` EXAMINER JENKS: And that's --
` MR. GABRIC: Sorry.
` EXAMINER JENKS: I'm sorry.
` MR. GABRIC: I didn't mean to
` cut you off. Could I get until the
` 17th?
` EXAMINER JENKS: The 17th?
` MR. GABRIC: Yeah.
` EXAMINER JENKS: And then the
` 25th for patent owner's response?
` MR. GABRIC: I think the Judge
` is asking you, Dorothy. Hello?
` EXAMINER JENKS: All right.
` So it's 10 pages, and we said the
` 17th.
` MR. GABRIC: That's fine for
` petitioner. I think I lost
` everybody for a second.
` EXAMINER JENKS: Patent owner?
` MS. WHELAN: That's fine, but
` Your Honor, could you please, just
` one clarification, the request for
`
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` the reply listed four topics, would
` the reply include all four of those
` topics?
` EXAMINER JENKS: I believe so,
` right? They want to supplement the
` record.
` MR. GABRIC: Yes, Your Honor,
` that's --
` EXAMINER JENKS: With the --
` with the -- yeah, four topics,
` the -- I'm just looking at it,
` looking at it again, one was to -- I
` understand that you want to bring
` copies of your request for the
` rehearing from the other files into
` this one?
` MR. GABRIC: Correct.
` EXAMINER JENKS: Is that my --
` is my understanding correct?
` MR. GABRIC: Correct.
` EXAMINER JENKS: Then you said
` you wanted to respond to patent
` owner's particularity challenge?
` MR. GABRIC: Correct.
` EXAMINER JENKS: And to patent
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` owner's request for discretionary
` denial?
` MR. GABRIC: Correct.
` EXAMINER JENKS: And you're
` saying there that regardless how we
` interpret it, but I mean this should
` already have been in your petition
` file, you know, how we would
` interpret the label.
` MR. GABRIC: Right. So --
` right. So the first request is to
` bring in the request for rehearing,
` the second request two and three are
` related to that, to explain why
` what's in that rehearing statement,
` how it applies specifically with
` citation to the record previous
` arguments to the '719 patent, then
` the last one is the discretionary
` denial.
` EXAMINER JENKS: Mm-hmm. And
` again, I mean, the arguments you're
` going to let me know, were in the
` record we find these -- because
` you're basically trying to bring in
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` the same arguments you had in the
` request for rehearing at this point
` in time. But you need to be sure
` that you can support it in your
` original filings petition here.
` MR. GABRIC: Totally
` understood, yes.
` EXAMINER JENKS: All right.
` Okay. All righty.
` Patent owner, are you okay
` with the -- with what did we just
` say, the 25th?
` MS. WHELAN: Yes. Yes, Your
` Honor, the briefing schedule is
` fine.
` EXAMINER JENKS: Mm-hmm.
` Excellent.
` All right.
` Is there any -- does any --
` anybody else need -- want to say
` anything else at this point in time?
` MR. GABRIC: No. Petitioner
` just thanks the panel for their time
` this morning.
` EXAMINER JENKS: Okay. So
`
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` patent owner, do you have any --
` MS. WHELAN: The patent owner
` has nothing to add.
` EXAMINER JENKS: So I want to
` thank the parties for the attention
` and attendance this morning. And in
` this case I will not be issuing an
` order memorializing the conference
` call because we're going to have a
` copy of the transcript. So the call
` is hereby adjourned. Thank you so
` much.
` MR. GABRIC: Thank you, Your
` Honors.
` MS. WHELAN: Thank you.
` (Whereupon, the conference
` call was concluded at 11:47 a.m.)
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` CERTIFICATE OF SHORTHAND REPORTER
` I, Cassandra E. Ellis, Registered
`Professional Reporter, the officer before
`whom the foregoing proceedings were taken,
`do hereby certify that the foregoing
`transcript is a true and correct record of
`the proceedings; that said proceedings were
`taken by me stenographically and thereafter
`reduced to typewriting under my supervision;
`and that I am neither counsel for, related
`to, nor employed by any of the parties to
`this case and have no interest, financial or
`otherwise, in its outcome.
` IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set
`my hand this 8th day of February 2021.
`
`__________________________________________
`CASSANDRA E. ELLIS, CSR-HI, CSR-VA, CCR-WA,
`RPR
`REALTIME SYSTEMS ADMINISTRATOR
`NOTARY PUBLIC
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
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`A
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`add 20:3
`additional 10:5
`12:23 14:23
`address 9:9
`adjourned 20:11
`ADMINISTRAT...
`21:23
`adopt 10:7
`agree 13:9
`agreement 2:4
`allow 14:23
`answered 12:2
`anybody 19:20
`APPEALS 1:1
`appearances 6:1
`appearing 7:7
`applies 18:16
`apply 11:7 13:15
`appreciate 6:20
`argument 12:13,24
`13:22
`arguments 12:16
`12:23 13:1 14:1
`15:8 18:18,22
`19:1
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`assume 13:10
`attendance 20:6
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`
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`21:1
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`certify 21:5
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`17:23
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`cited 10:3
`clarification 16:25
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`completed 11:23
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`
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`
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`5:18,23 6:12,18
`7:3,10 8:16,20,25
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`
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`TransPerfect Legal SolutionsTransPerfect Legal Solutions
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`further 13:6
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`6:6,15 7:1 8:10,19
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`10:4,5 11:5
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`institutions 13:15
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`interpret 18:6,9
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`issuing 20:7
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`15:18,22,25 16:4
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`Recess 14:11
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`2020-00086 1:6
`2020-0086 5:6
`2021 1:17 21:15
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`2
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