1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Page 1
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`----------------------------
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`----------------------------
`
`US ENDODONTICS LLC,
`
`Petitioner,
`
`- against -
`
`GOLD STANDARD INSTRUMENTS, LLC
`
`Patent Owner.
`
`Case No. PGR2015-00019
`
`April 20, 2016
`
`9:00 a.m.
`
`1133 Avenue of the Americas
`
`New York, New York
`
`VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF A. JON
`
`GOLDBERG, Ph.D., held at the above-mentioned time
`
`and place, before Randi Friedman, a Registered
`
`Professional Reporter, within and for the State
`
`of New York.
`
`212-279-9424
`
`V eritext Legal Solutions
`www.veritext.com
`
`212-490-3430
`GOLD STANDARD EXHIBIT 2039
`US ENDODONTICS v. GOLD STANDARD
`CASE PGR2015-00019
`
`
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Page 1
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`----------------------------
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`----------------------------
`
`US ENDODONTICS LLC,
`
`Petitioner,
`
`- against -
`
`GOLD STANDARD INSTRUMENTS, LLC
`
`Patent Owner.
`
`Case No. PGR2015-00019
`
`April 20, 2016
`
`9:00 a.m.
`
`1133 Avenue of the Americas
`
`New York, New York
`
`VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF A. JON
`
`GOLDBERG, Ph.D., held at the above-mentioned time
`
`and place, before Randi Friedman, a Registered
`
`Professional Reporter, within and for the State
`
`of New York.
`
`212-279-9424
`
`V eritext Legal Solutions
`www.veritext.com
`
`212-490-3430
`GOLD STANDARD EXHIBIT 2039
`US ENDODONTICS v. GOLD STANDARD
`CASE PGR2015-00019
`
`
`
`Page 2
`
` A. Jon Goldberg, Ph.D.
`APPEARANCES:
`
` PATTERSON BELLKNAP WEBB & TYLER, LLP
` Attorneys for Petitioner
` 1133 Avenue of the Americas
` New York, New York 10036
`
` BY: JEFFREY S. GINSBERG, ESQ.
` ABHISHEK BAPNA, ESQ.
`
` ROTHWELL, FIGG, ERNST & MANBECK
` Attorneys for Patent Owner
`
` 607 14th Street, N.W.
` Washington, D.C. 20005
` BY: STEVEN LIEBERMAN, ESQ.
` JASON M. NOLAN, Ph.D.
`
` * * *
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
` JD Martinez - Videographer
`
`1
`2
`3
`
`4
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`89
`
`10
`
`11
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`212-279-9424
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`www.veritext.com
`
`212-490-3430
`
`
`
`Page 3
`
` A. Jon Goldberg, Ph.D.
` STIPULATIONS
` IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED, by and between
`the attorneys for the respective parties hereto,
`that:
` All rights provided by the C.P.L.R.,
`and Part 221 of the Uniform Rules for the Conduct
`of Depositions, including the right to object to
`any question, except as to the form, or to move
`to strike any testimony at this examination is
`reserved; and in addition, the failure to object
`to any question or to move to strike any
`testimony at this examination shall not be a bar
`or a waiver to make such motion at, and is
`reserved to, the time of this action.
` This deposition may be sworn to by the
`witness being examined before a Notary Public
`other than the Notary Public before whom this
`examination was begun, but the failure to do so
`or to return the original of this deposition to
`counsel, shall not be deemed a waiver or the
`rights provided by Rule 3116, C.P.L.R., and shall
`be controlled thereby.
` The filing of the original of this
`deposition is waived.
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`212-279-9424
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`www.veritext.com
`
`212-490-3430
`
`
`
`Page 4
`
` A. Jon Goldberg, Ph.D.
` MR. MARTINEZ: We are now on the
` record. Please note that the microphones
` are sensitive and may pick up whispering and
` private conversations. Please turn off all
` cellphones or just place them away from the
` microphones, as they can interfere with the
` deposition audio. Recording will continue
` until all parties agree to go off the
` record.
` My name is J.D. Martinez,
` representing Veritext New York. The date
` today is April 20th, 2016, and the time is
` approximately 9:03 a.m. This deposition is
` being held at Patterson Belknap, located at
` 1133 Avenue of the Americas, New York, New
` York.
` This case caption is U.S.
` Endodontics, LLC versus Gold Standard
` Instruments, LLC. It is being held in the
` U.S. Patent and Trademark Office before the
` Patent Trial and Appeal Board, Case PGR
` 2015-0019. The name of the witness is Jon
` Goldberg. And at this time, the attorneys
` present in the room will identify themselves
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`212-279-9424
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`www.veritext.com
`
`212-490-3430
`
`
`
`Page 5
`
` A. Jon Goldberg, Ph.D.
` and the parties they represent, after which
` our court reporter, Randi Friedman, will
` swear in the witness, and we can proceed.
` MR. LIEBERMAN: My name is Steve
` Lieberman from the law firm of Rothwell Figg
` Ernst & Manbeck. I'm here with my
` colleague, Jason Nolan, and together we
` represent the patent owner.
` Good morning, Dr. Goldberg.
` THE WITNESS: Good morning.
` MR. GINSBERG: This is Jeff
` Ginsberg. I'm with the law firm of
` Patterson Belknap. I represent the
` petitioner, U.S. Endodontics. With me is my
` colleague, Abhisheck Bapna, and we are also
` representing the witness.
` * * *
` A. JON GOLDBERG, the witness
` herein, having been duly sworn, was examined
` and testified as follows:
` * * *
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. LIEBERMAN:
` Q Good morning, Dr. Goldberg.
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`212-279-9424
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`www.veritext.com
`
`212-490-3430
`
`
`
`Page 6
`
` A. Jon Goldberg, Ph.D.
` A Good morning.
` Q I know that you have been retained in
`a number of matters by the law firm representing
`U.S. Endodontics. That would include the IPR
`proceeding in the Patent Office; is that right?
` A Yes.
` Q That would include the District Court
`litigation in Tennessee?
` A Yes.
` Q And it would also include this matter;
`correct, the PGR?
` A Correct.
` Q Are there any other matters in which
`you've been retained by someone on behalf of U.S.
`Endodontics?
` A No.
` Q And which entity do you understand
`you've been retained on behalf of?
` A U.S. Endodontics.
` Q And have you been retained directly by
`U.S. Endodontics or by a law firm representing
`U.S. Endodontics?
` A By a law firm.
` Q Originally it was the Kenyon & Kenyon
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`212-279-9424
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`www.veritext.com
`
`212-490-3430
`
`
`
`Page 7
`
` A. Jon Goldberg, Ph.D.
`law firm where Mr. Ginsberg was?
` A Yes.
` Q And then when he moved to the
`Patterson Belknap firm, were you separately
`retained by the Patterson Belknap firm?
` A Yes.
` Q From whom do you receive payment for
`your services in these various matters?
` A Patterson Belknap.
` Q Previous to that, from Kenyon &
`Kenyon?
` A Yes.
` Q Would you please tell me on all of the
`matters together in which you've worked for U.S.
`Endodontics, approximately how much have you
`received for your work in these various matters
`relating to dental supplies?
` A I'm going to estimate 100 to
`$150,000.00.
` Q Do you believe it's closer to the top
`end of that range?
` A I think it's closer to the top end. I
`mean I could go back and check, but that's just
`my estimate.
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`212-279-9424
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`www.veritext.com
`
`212-490-3430
`
`
`
`Page 8
`
` A. Jon Goldberg, Ph.D.
` Q And is there work for which you've
`billed Patterson Belknap for which you have not
`yet received payment?
` A Yes.
` Q And approximately how much is it?
` A $4,000.00.
` Q Is there also work that you perform
`but have not yet billed Patterson Belknap?
` A Yes.
` Q About how much is that?
` A I'm going to estimate $5,000.00.
` Q So your best estimate is that to date,
`you have performed about $160,000.00 worth of
`work?
` A That's my estimate.
` Q Now, I'd like to spend a few minutes
`going through some aspects of your background, if
`that's okay with you.
` A Okay.
` Q And I want you to leave apart for the
`moment, leave aside any work that you've done in
`connection with these cases for U.S. Endodontics.
` A Okay.
` Q So I'm asking you about your
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`212-279-9424
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`www.veritext.com
`
`212-490-3430
`
`
`
`Page 9
`
` A. Jon Goldberg, Ph.D.
`experience prior to being retained in these
`matters, or after being retained, but on matters
`unrelated to U.S. Endodontics.
` A Okay.
` Q You're with me?
` A Yes.
` Q Have you ever, yourself, made an
`endodontic file?
` A No.
` Q Have you ever supervised anybody
`making an endodontic file?
` A No.
` Q Have you ever, yourself, heat-treated
`an endodontic file?
` A No.
` Q Have you ever supervised anybody
`heat-treating an endodontic file?
` A Separate from this case, no.
` Q And we'll get to the work that you've
`done in connection with this case, but I want to
`ask you about your experience outside of this
`case.
` A Okay.
` Q Do you understand that?
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`212-279-9424
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`www.veritext.com
`
`212-490-3430
`
`
`
`Page 10
`
` A. Jon Goldberg, Ph.D.
` A Yes.
` Q So apart from any work that you've
`done on this case, have you ever supervised
`anybody in heat-treating an endodontic file?
` A No.
` Q Have you physically been present in a
`facility when an endodontic file was heat-treated
`and observed that heat treatment?
` A No.
` Q Have you ever written or added a
`protocol for heat-treating an endodontic file?
` A No.
` Q Have you ever written an article or a
`book or a book chapter about how to heat-treat
`endodontic files?
` A I'm trying to recall. Recently
`published a chapter -- well, two things. I had
`done work, to be fair, related to titanium alloys
`for orthodontic wires and recently wrote a
`chapter. I don't recall if -- it was definitely
`when we were doing development work of small
`diameter wires, which are similar to endodontic
`files for the orthodontic wire. We were working
`closely with the manufacturer then. I was doing
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`212-279-9424
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`www.veritext.com
`
`212-490-3430
`
`
`
`Page 11
`
` A. Jon Goldberg, Ph.D.
`testing of those small diameter wires.
` Recently I wrote a book chapter on
`orthodontic wires, but there was -- there were
`sections on nickel titanium, and I just don't
`recall right now -- we talked in that book about
`different phases of nickel titanium. I don't
`recall right now if there was any heat treatment
`in that chapter.
` Q Is this something that's been
`published?
` A Yes.
` Q What's the name of the book?
` A It's something like Biomechanics --
`Principles of Biomechanics of Orthodontics.
`Something of that -- edited by Charles Burstone.
`Edited by Charles Burstone.
` Q How do you spell Burstone?
` A B-U-R-S-T-O-N-E.
` Q When did you write this chapter?
` A It was probably over a two-year period
`starting maybe three, four years ago.
` Q Let's just talk about what orthodontic
`wires are.
` Those are the wires that are used on
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`212-279-9424
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`www.veritext.com
`
`212-490-3430
`
`
`
`Page 12
`
` A. Jon Goldberg, Ph.D.
`braces, for example, when somebody has
`orthodontia; correct?
` A Correct.
` Q They're not drills or files; correct?
` A There are now -- I'm trying to give
`you a complete answer. Some orthodontic therapy
`now does involve drilling small screws into bone
`as part of the orthodontic treatment. So that's
`the closest that -- that seems to be associated
`with what you're asking.
` Q You said you have done work on the
`orthodontic wires; correct?
` A Correct, correct.
` Q Had you done work on the drills that
`are used to drill holes in teeth to put in screws
`for orthodontia?
` A No.
` Q So focusing on the orthodontic wires
`themselves, orthodontic wires are not drills or
`files; correct?
` A Correct.
` Q Orthodontic wires are not used in
`endodontic procedures; correct?
` A I guess it's possible in a given case
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`212-279-9424
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`www.veritext.com
`
`212-490-3430
`
`
`
`Page 13
`
` A. Jon Goldberg, Ph.D.
`there'd be a combination of endodontics and
`endodontics. But the wires is not used for
`endodontic therapy.
` Q The endodontic therapy we're talking
`about are things like root canal procedures;
`correct?
` A Yes.
` Q And you're unaware of procedures in
`which -- or a circumstance in which orthodontic
`wires used for braces would be used in an
`endodontic procedure; correct?
` A Correct.
` MR. GINSBERG: Objection to form.
`BY MR. LIEBERMAN:
` Q And the orthodontic wires that you've
`worked with you said involve titanium alloys?
` A Yes.
` Q Did they involve nickel titanium
`alloys?
` A Yes. We were doing testing -- we were
`developing Beta titanium alloys in a number of
`coverage positions in that area. We were doing
`comparisons to nickel titanium.
` Q Were the wires that you were working
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`212-279-9424
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`www.veritext.com
`
`212-490-3430
`
`
`
`Page 14
`
` A. Jon Goldberg, Ph.D.
`on nickel titanium orthodontic wires?
` A Yes.
` Q And when did you start to do that
`work?
` A 1980, '85.
` Q Did you ever yourself personally
`heat-treat nickel titanium orthodontic wires?
` A I don't recall.
` Q You don't recall doing that?
` A Right.
` Q Did you ever, yourself, personally
`supervise the heat treatment of nickel titanium
`orthodontic wires?
` A I don't believe so. We were doing
`processing of Beta titanium wires including
`different thermal processing, but I don't recall
`if we actually did the heat-treating on the
`nickel titanium. We were comparing it to the
`nickel titanium.
` Q Someone else had prepared the nickel
`titanium orthodontic wires, and you were just
`comparing what you were working on to what
`somebody else had prepared; is that correct?
` A Correct.
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`212-279-9424
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`www.veritext.com
`
`212-490-3430
`
`
`
`Page 15
`
` A. Jon Goldberg, Ph.D.
` MR. GINSBERG: Objection to form.
`BY MR. LIEBERMAN:
` Q So just so the record is clear, you
`don't recall ever having supervised the heat
`treatment of any nickel titanium orthodontic
`wires; correct?
` A Well, we would select wires that are
`of interest to us. They may well have been
`heat-treated. I just don't know. It was what
`was available to us that we wanted to compare to,
`but I didn't personally supervise the heat
`treatment of those wires.
` Q Let's just be very clear. You told me
`you were working on some orthodontic wires which
`you compared to nickel titanium orthodontic wires
`that had been prepared by other people; correct?
` A Correct.
` Q So I want to focus on the preparation
`of nickel titanium orthodontic wires.
` A Okay.
` Q You were never involved in preparing
`nickel titanium orthodontic wires; correct?
` A Well, exclusive of selecting them and
`testing them. Not the actual -- I wasn't
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`212-279-9424
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`www.veritext.com
`
`212-490-3430
`
`
`
`Page 16
`
` A. Jon Goldberg, Ph.D.
`involved in the actual fabrication of the wires.
`Not the nickel titanium ones.
` Q Right. You didn't make them or
`supervise the making of them; correct?
` A Not the nickel titanium wires.
` Q That's what I'm asking about.
` A Yes.
` Q So, again, just to be very clear,
`you've never participated in the heat treatment
`of any nickel titanium orthodontic wires;
`correct?
` A I'm just -- the wires were used --
`might have been heat-treated. We selected them
`for comparison purposes. I wasn't personally
`involved in doing the treatment of the nickel
`titanium. We were doing treatments of the Beta
`titanium.
` Q Could you read my question back to the
`witness, please.
` (Whereupon the reporter read back
` the requested portion of the record.)
` THE WITNESS: That's correct.
`BY MR. LIEBERMAN:
` Q And you've never participated in heat
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`212-279-9424
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`www.veritext.com
`
`212-490-3430
`
`
`
`Page 17
`
` A. Jon Goldberg, Ph.D.
`treatment of any nickel titanium endodontic
`files; correct?
` A Correct.
` Q And you've never participated in the
`heat treatment of any endodontic files; correct?
` A Correct.
` Q Before you began doing your work on
`these cases for U.S. Endo, had you ever written
`anything professionally about the different means
`of heat-treating nickel titanium endodontic
`files?
` MR. GINSBERG: Objection to form.
` THE WITNESS: So as part of my
` teaching, I teach about different alloys,
` including nickel titanium that's applied
` both in endodontics, as well as
` orthodontics. I don't -- you know, I don't
` know how far back, but I do talk about the
` different phases that are present for
` different applications both in endodontics
` and orthodontics. That would -- I'm not
` sure if that's answering your question.
`BY MR. LIEBERMAN:
` Q Well, my question had to do with your
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`212-279-9424
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`www.veritext.com
`
`212-490-3430
`
`
`
`Page 18
`
` A. Jon Goldberg, Ph.D.
`professional writings. Let's focus on that
`first. Then we can talk about what you do in
`your classes.
` A Right. So when you say professional
`writing, the materials I prepare professionally
`for teaching?
` Q Well, let's focus first on articles,
`books and book chapters.
` Have you ever written any articles,
`books or book chapters on heat treatment of
`endodontic files?
` A No.
` Q Have you ever written any other sort
`of -- we'll get in a moment to what you do with
`your classes.
` A Okay.
` Q Have you written any other sort of
`professional materials outside of this case on
`the heat treatment of endodontic files?
` A No. I mean, what I've written about
`includes the same alloys that are used in
`endodontics, but they were not specifically the
`files.
` Q I'd like the record to be very clear,
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`212-279-9424
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`www.veritext.com
`
`212-490-3430
`
`
`
`Page 19
`
` A. Jon Goldberg, Ph.D.
`have you ever written about professionally,
`outside of course, materials which we'll get to
`in a moment?
` A Right.
` Q Methods of heat-treating orthodontic
`files?
` A So I'm just trying to be fair. The
`files like the wires come from similar stock
`materials. The metallurgy is the same in both
`cases, so I have written about that recently in
`this textbook.
` As you mentioned, I know you're going
`to come to course materials later. I'm trying to
`be fair that I've dealt with those but not
`specifically after they had been machined into
`files.
` Q So you have not written professionally
`about methods of heat-treating endodontic files
`after they've been made into files; correct?
` A Correct.
` Q You've written about general methods
`of heating different types of metals; correct?
` A I've written about phase changes in
`nickel titanium alloys with compositions that are
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`212-279-9424
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`www.veritext.com
`
`212-490-3430
`
`
`
`Page 20
`
` A. Jon Goldberg, Ph.D.
`the same as in endodontic files. And written
`those to explain the changes in mechanical
`properties as a result of the heat treatments of
`those nickel titanium alloys.
` Q But in terms of endodontic files
`themselves, you've never written professionally
`about the heat treatment of endodontic files;
`correct?
` A Correct.
` Q Can you identify for me any written
`course materials that we could look at so that we
`can see exactly what you wrote, written course
`materials that discuss the different methods of
`heat-treating endodontic files?
` A I would have to go back and check.
`I'm not sure what was in the syllabus. What
`would have been on my slides. What I would have
`discussed in general. I mean I do lecture them
`about phase changes in nickel titanium alloys
`that are the same composition as endodontic and
`point out to them that the metallurgy in the two
`are similar. That it might be processed one way
`to become an orthodontic wire and another way to
`become an endodontic file. And what would be the
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`212-279-9424
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`www.veritext.com
`
`212-490-3430
`
`
`
`Page 21
`
` A. Jon Goldberg, Ph.D.
`benefits and pros and cons of getting the
`structures that result in particular properties
`and why those properties are advantageous.
` Q Dr. Goldberg, I don't want you to
`speculate about what you might have done.
` A Okay.
` Q My question is what you specifically
`remember doing. Let me ask the question. Are
`you with me so far?
` MR. GINSBERG: Objection to form.
` There's no question.
`BY MR. LIEBERMAN:
` Q My question is, do you specifically
`remember creating written course materials so
`that we can take a look at them --
` A Right.
` Q -- that discuss different methods of
`heat-treating endodontic files?
` MR. GINSBERG: Objection to form.
` THE WITNESS: I don't recall.
`BY MR. LIEBERMAN:
` Q You don't recall that?
` A Right.
` Q And do you recall specifically
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`212-279-9424
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`www.veritext.com
`
`212-490-3430
`
`
`
`Page 22
`
` A. Jon Goldberg, Ph.D.
`teaching your students about different methods of
`heat-treating endodontic files?
` A Yes, because in the context of, again,
`the courses, a basic material science course
`apply to dentistry. My approach is different
`material systems, including nickel titaniums to
`say here's the compositions. These are the
`different structures that are possible. These
`structures lead to the following properties.
`These properties have this benefit in orthodontic
`application. These properties have a benefit in
`an endodontic application. That would be typical
`of how I would teach the course.
` Q My question's a very specific one.
` A Okay.
` Q And I'd like you to try to answer it
`if you can. Will you agree to try to do that?
` A Yes.
` Q Do you recall specifically teaching
`students about different methods of heat-treating
`endodontic files after the files have been made
`into files? Not the metal from which the files
`are made.
` A Right. So I'm trying to answer you
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`212-279-9424
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`www.veritext.com
`
`212-490-3430
`
`
`
`Page 23
`
` A. Jon Goldberg, Ph.D.
`completely. I definitely talk to the students
`about different types of nickel titaniums that
`might be used in endodontics. I made -- the
`sequence might have been we formed this
`structure. I may not have gone into the detail
`of the processing necessary to get to that
`structure. But then I explain the benefits of
`that.
` So if that encompasses heat treatment,
`then the answer is yes. Have I specifically said
`here's the heat treatment time, temperature
`necessary to get this endodontic file to that
`condition, then, no, I wouldn't go into that
`specific.
` Q Outside of your work with respect to
`these matters for U.S. Endodontics, have you ever
`advised any companies about the best methods of
`heat-treating endodontic files?
` A No.
` Q Have you ever engaged, outside of your
`work for U.S. Endodontics, in any studies
`regarding the most efficient methods of
`heat-treating endodontic files?
` A No.
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`212-279-9424
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`www.veritext.com
`
`212-490-3430
`
`
`
`Page 24
`
` A. Jon Goldberg, Ph.D.
` Q The most cost-effective methods of
`heat-treating endodontic files?
` A No.
` Q And I may have already asked this, and
`if I did, I apologize. Outside of your work for
`U.S. Endodontics on these matters, have you ever
`seen endodontic files being heat-treated?
` A I don't believe so.
` Q And that would include, since we're in
`the internet age, seeing a video of endodontic
`files being heat-treated?
` A Correct.
` Q Correct, you haven't seen that either?
` A Correct.
` Q Now, you've spent a fair amount of
`time studying an article by a fellow named Kuhn;
`correct?
` A Correct.
` Q And you've written about Mr. Kuhn's
`work or Dr. Kuhn's work in a number of different
`reports that you've given; correct?
` A Yes.
` Q Let me show you a copy of the Kuhn
`article. It's previously been marked as PGR
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`212-279-9424
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`www.veritext.com
`
`212-490-3430
`
`
`
`Page 25
`
` A. Jon Goldberg, Ph.D.
`Exhibit 1030. This is the article that you've
`opined about a number of times in your reports?
` A Yes.
` Q About how many times would you say
`you've read this article?
` A Reading it straight through, maybe
`only a couple of times. What I usually do is go
`to a particular section that I'm interested and
`look at that, so I've done that, a dozen times.
` Q Okay. What is room temperature?
` A I would say 72 degrees F.
` Q What does that convert to in
`centigrade?
` A I think 22, 23 degrees. Twenty-four.
`Some range in there.
` Q So I'd like you to look at the Kuhn
`article, Page 3. On the bottom right-hand
`corner.
` A I'm sorry. Did you give me the 700 --
`third page, Page 718?
` Q 718. Do you see there's a paragraph
`on the bottom right-hand corner entitled -- two
`paragraphs under the section Bending Tests?
` A Correct. And it continues -- that
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`212-279-9424
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`www.veritext.com
`
`212-490-3430
`
`
`
`Page 26
`
` A. Jon Goldberg, Ph.D.
`section continues over to the next page.
` Q Right. I'd like you to read out loud,
`please, the first sentence in the second
`paragraph under the heading Bending Tests, and
`then we'll be talking about that sentence.
` A I'm sorry. The first sentence in the
`second paragraph?
` Q That's correct.
` A "As can be seen from the curves, the
`samples deformed at room temperature recover
`their original state, indicating that the
`transformation of temperature is close to room
`temperature."
` Q Now, I'd like to focus on the question
`of what curves are being referred to in this
`sentence.
` A Okay.
` Q That's something you have opined on a
`number of times; correct?
` A I can remember once. I don't know if
`it was many times.
` Q Okay. But that's a matter that you've
`spent some fair amount of time thinking about?
` A Well, the questions, if I recall, had
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`212-279-9424
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`www.veritext.com
`
`212-490-3430
`
`
`
`Page 27
`
` A. Jon Goldberg, Ph.D.
`to do with which figure that was referring to.
` Q Right. And that's something you spent
`a fair amount of time thinking about; correct?
` MR. GINSBERG: Objection to form.
` THE WITNESS: Yeah. I'm not sure
` what you mean by a fair amount of time, but
` the questioning about that previously had
` been about which figure this text was
` referring to.
`BY MR. LIEBERMAN:
` Q And you actually opined on that
`subject in the expert report you did in this PGR
`matter; is that right?
` A I'd have to check where it appeared.
` Q You just don't remember offhand?
` A No.
` Q Whether you opined on that subject?
` A I do. I just don't remember what
`documents it appears in.
` Q I'm going to show you a copy of your
`report, which has previously been marked as PGR
`Exhibit 1002.
` MR. LIEBERMAN: I'm happy to give
` you an extra copy, Mr. Ginsberg. I see you
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`212-279-9424
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`www.veritext.com
`
`212-490-3430
`
`
`
`Page 28
`
` A. Jon Goldberg, Ph.D.
` have one there?
` MR. GINSBERG: I do.
` MR. LIEBERMAN: You want an extra
` copy?
` MR. GINSBERG: That's okay.
`BY MR. LIEBERMAN:
` Q Could you turn, Dr. Goldberg, to Page
`89 of your report.
` A Okay. I'm there.
` Q And in paragraph 168, you're
`discussing the question of what figures the
`sentence is referring to; is that right?
` A If I can just take a look for a
`second?
` Q Of course.
` A Just so I'm understanding, the
`sentences that you're referring to in 168 are not
`the paragraph that I was just reading.
` Q Well, in paragraph 168 of your report
`you're talking about the sentence that you read
`out loud at my request from the Kuhn article
`about samples deformed at room temperature
`recovering to original state; correct?
` A I'm not sure about that. Okay.
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`212-279-9424
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`www.veritext.com
`
`212-490-3430
`
`
`
`Page 29
`
` A. Jon Goldberg, Ph.D.
` Q You agree that in paragraph 168 of
`your report in the PGR, you're talking about that
`sentence we had you read out loud?
` A Yes.
` Q From the Kuhn article.
` A Yes. I'm assuming that quote,
`"recover their original state" is from this
`sentence. And not someplace else in the paper.
` Q Do you remember, sitting here now, the
`phrase "recover their original state" showing up
`anywhere else in the Kuhn article?
` A I don't recall.
` Q You don't recall that?
` A I don't recall. I mean, I know
`there's a couple of different figures and the
`issue has often been is it recovering at original
`state or not, so...
` Q So I'd like to focus on the sentence
`in the Kuhn article that you read to us. Do you
`see at the end of the -- that sentence, there's
`the phrase indicating that "the transformation
`temperature is close to room temperature;" do you
`see that?
` A Yes.
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`212-279-9424
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`www.veritext.com
`
`212-490-3430
`
`
`
`Page 30
`
` A. Jon Goldberg, Ph.D.
` Q And the room temperature that we're
`talking about here would be somewhere between 22
`and 23 degrees?
` A Right. Maybe 25. Somewhere in that
`range.
` Q Well, 22 to 23 would correlate to 72
`degrees Fahrenheit; correct?
` A Okay.
` Q Well, you're the scientist. I'm
`asking you.
` A I just don't recall offhand what those
`exact conversions are.
` Q Do you want to do the math? It's
`9/5's C-plus 32.
` A I guess I would say I'm going to say
`it's 22 to 24. I mean -- I guess people would
`use different assumptions for what room
`temperature would be.
` Q But generally, the assumption of room
`temperature is 22 degrees; correct?
` MR. GINSBERG: Object to the form
` of the question.
` THE WITNESS: I would agree that's
` your interpretation of room temperature.
`
`1
`2
`3
`4
`5
`6
`7
`8
`9
`10
`11
`12
`13
`14
`15
`16
`17
`18
`19
`20
`21
`22
`23
`24
`25
`
`212-279-9424
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`www.veritext.com
`
`212-490-3430
`
`
`
`Page 31
`
` A. Jon Goldberg, Ph.D.
` Q Is that how you read room temperature
`here?
` A I didn't specifically focus on what
`room temperatu
Accessing this document will incur an additional charge of $.
After purchase, you can access this document again without charge.
Accept $ Charge
Still Working On It
This document is taking longer than usual to download. This can happen if we need to contact the court directly to obtain the document and their servers are running slowly.
Give it another minute or two to complete, and then try the refresh button.
A few More Minutes ... Still Working
It can take up to 5 minutes for us to download a document if the court servers are running slowly.
Thank you for your continued patience.
This document could not be displayed.
We could not find this document within its docket. Please go back to the docket page and check the link. If that does not work, go back to the docket and refresh it to pull the newest information.
Your account does not support viewing this document.
You need a Paid Account to view this document. Click here to change your account type.
Your account does not support viewing this document.
Set your membership
status to view this document.
With a Docket Alarm membership, you'll
get a whole lot more, including:
- Up-to-date information for this case.
- Email alerts whenever there is an update.
- Full text search for other cases.
- Get email alerts whenever a new case matches your search.
One Moment Please
The filing “” is large (MB) and is being downloaded.
Please refresh this page in a few minutes to see if the filing has been downloaded. The filing will also be emailed to you when the download completes.
Your document is on its way!
If you do not receive the document in five minutes, contact support at support@docketalarm.com.
Sealed Document
We are unable to display this document, it may be under a court ordered seal.
If you have proper credentials to access the file, you may proceed directly to the court's system using your government issued username and password.
Access Government Site
