UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` ----------------------------------
` MERCEDES-BENZ USA, LLC
` Petitioner,
` v.
` DAEDALUS PRIME LLC,
` Patent Owner.
` ----------------------------------
` Case No.: IPR2023-01333
` U.S. Patent No. 10,049,080
` ----------------------------------
`
` DEPOSITION OF ROBERT W. HORST, PhD
` CONDUCTED VIRTUALLY
` Wednesday, May 1, 2024
`
`Stenographically Reported by:
`LORI STOKES
`RPR, CSR No. 12732
`Job No. 535597
`Pages 1-38
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`IPR 2023-01333 Daedalus Ex. 2002
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`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` ----------------------------------
` MERCEDES-BENZ USA, LLC
` Petitioner,
` v.
` DAEDALUS PRIME LLC,
` Patent Owner.
` ----------------------------------
` Case No.: IPR2023-01333
` U.S. Patent No. 10,049,080
` ----------------------------------
`
` DEPOSITION OF ROBERT W. HORST, PhD
` CONDUCTED VIRTUALLY
` Wednesday, May 1, 2024
`
`Stenographically Reported by:
`LORI STOKES
`RPR, CSR No. 12732
`Job No. 535597
`Pages 1-38
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`Transcript of Robert W. Horst, Ph.D.
`Conducted on May 1, 2024
`
`2
`
` The deposition of ROBERT W. HORST, PhD, was taken
`virtually on behalf of DAEDALUS PRIME LLC, beginning at
`8:55 a.m., Pacific Time, on May 1, 2024, before LORI
`STOKES, RPR, Certified Shorthand Reporter No. 12732.
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`Conducted on May 1, 2024
`
`3
`
`APPEARANCES VIA VIDEOCONFERENCE:
`
`FOR PETITIONER
` HOGAN LOVELLS US LLP
` BY: JIAXING (KYLE) XU
` DAMON LEWIS (DC)
` SCOTT HUGHES (DC)
` Attorneys at Law
` 4 Embarcadero Center
` Suite 3500
` San Francisco, California 94111
` 415.374.2300
`
`FOR PATENT OWNER
` ASCENDA LAW GROUP, PC
` BY: TAREK FAHMI
` Attorney at Law
` 2150 North First Street
` Suite 420
` San Jose, California 95131
` 408.799.0612
`
`REMOTE TECHNICIAN: Ken Languico
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`Transcript of Robert W. Horst, Ph.D.
`Conducted on May 1, 2024
`
`4
`
` INDEX
`WITNESS EXAMINATION
`DAVID WYATT
` BY MR. FAHMI ............................6
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`Conducted on May 1, 2024
`
`5
`
` EXHIBITS
`
`EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION PAGE
`
`EXHIBIT 1005 United States Patent 29
` Application Publication US
` 2011/0213950 A1
`
`EXHIBIT 1007 United States Patent 17
` Application Publication US
` 2008/0288748 A1
`
`EXHIBIT 1034 Declaration of Robert Horst 9
` in Support of Petition for
` Inter Partes Review of U.S.
` Patent No. 10,049,080
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`Transcript of Robert W. Horst, Ph.D.
`Conducted on May 1, 2024
`
`6
`
` May 1, 2024 | 8:55 a.m.
`
` ROBERT W. HORST, PhD,
`having been administered an oath, was examined and
`testified as follows:
`
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. FAHMI:
` Q Good morning, Dr. Horst. Can you hear me
`okay?
` A Yes, I can.
` Q Great.
` My name is Tarek Fahmi. I'm here today
`representing the patent owner, Daedalus Prime, and we're
`here today for your deposition in connection with a
`matter that's pending before the United States Patent
`and Trademark Office.
` It's Inter Partes Review Number 2023-01333,
`and that concerns U.S. Patent 10,049,080.
` Do you understand that?
` A Yes.
` Q You've provided testimony in other depositions
`before; is that right?
` A Yes, I have.
` Q I'd just like to go over a couple of ground
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`Transcript of Robert W. Horst, Ph.D.
`Conducted on May 1, 2024
`
`7
`
`rules. And first, thanks, you know, for participating
`in today's deposition. I appreciate your time.
` And since this is being done over a remote
`video, it's important that we not speak over each other.
`As the technician mentioned at the outset, it's hard
`enough for the reporter when we're all in the same room
`to try to track everybody who is speaking, but it's even
`more difficult over a video link.
` So if you'd be so kind as to wait until I
`finish asking a question before you begin your answer,
`I'll try and make sure I do the same and let you finish
`your answer before I ask another question. And that
`way, the court reporter is only having to take down what
`one person is saying at a time.
` Is that okay?
` A Yes.
` Q And again, since it's over a video link,
`sometimes the audio gets garbled or, you know, the
`connection drops out momentarily.
` If that happens, and you don't hear a question
`or, you know, maybe didn't understand it, just let me
`know. I'll be happy to repeat the question. If you
`didn't understand the question, let me know, and I'll
`try and clarify what I'm asking.
` But if I ask a question, and you provide an
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`Transcript of Robert W. Horst, Ph.D.
`Conducted on May 1, 2024
`
`8
`
`answer, I'm going to assume you heard the question and
`you're answering the question that I asked.
` Is that fair?
` A Yes.
` Q Do you have any materials in the room with you
`this morning, Dr. Horst?
` A I have a copy of the exhibits and a separate
`copy of my expert report.
` Q Are there any markings on any of those
`materials other than, you know, the text on the page?
` A No, they aren't marked.
` Q If you want to refer to those materials during
`our conversation this morning, you know, feel free to do
`so. I would just ask that, if you are referring to
`something specific when you give me an answer, please
`let us know what it is you're referring to, okay?
` A Yes.
` Q Is there anyone present in the room with you
`this morning?
` A Yes. Present here are Mr. Lewis and Mr. Xu.
` Q All right. It's important in this proceeding
`that, now that we've started the cross-examination
`portion, as it's called, that you not have any
`communications with anyone about the substance of your
`testimony until that cross-examination is finished. And
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`
`9
`
`that applies even during a break.
` Do you understand that, sir?
` A Yes, I understand.
` Q If you need to take a break at any time, just
`let us know. I'll be happy to do so. I would just ask
`that we not take a break while there's a question
`pending. And so if you need to pause, and there's a
`question pending, I'd ask that you answer that question,
`and then we can pause.
` Is that okay?
` A Yes.
` Q Is there any reason why you can't give your
`full and honest and complete testimony in this
`proceeding this morning?
` A No.
` Q You're not taking any medications that might
`impair your ability to testify in this proceeding this
`morning; is that right?
` A That's right.
` Q Okay.
` MR. FAHMI: Let's begin with your declaration.
`This is Exhibit Number 1034.
` (Deposition Exhibit 1034 was
` marked for identification.)
` MR. FAHMI: And if we can have a copy on the
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`Conducted on May 1, 2024
`
`10
`
`screen, please, as well.
` THE REMOTE TECHNICIAN: Okay. One second.
`BY MR. FAHMI:
` Q So Dr. Horst, on the screen is a copy of
`what's been previously marked as Exhibit 1034. And I
`understand you may have a copy of this in the room with
`you as well.
` Do you recognize this exhibit?
` A Yes. This is my expert report in this matter.
` Q When is the last time you had a chance to
`review this report?
` A I was reviewing this report yesterday.
` Q Okay. How long did you spend doing your
`review?
` A I spent between eight and ten hours yesterday
`reviewing this report.
` Q So I imagine you were reviewing other things
`during that time as well; is that right?
` A It was primarily working on the review,
`refreshing my memory about the report.
` Q Prior to that, when is the last time you had a
`chance to review your report?
` A For the few days prior to that, I was also
`doing some review of the report and some of the other
`materials referred to in the report, for a few hours a
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`Conducted on May 1, 2024
`
`11
`
`day.
` Q Let's turn, please, to paragraph 33 in your
`report. It begins towards the bottom of page 13 and
`then carries over to page 14.
` A Yes, I'm there.
` Q So in paragraph 33, and then also in 34 and
`35, you're commenting on claim construction.
` Do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q And if I read this correctly, you're setting
`forth your understanding of how the process of claim
`construction works; is that right?
` A Yes, that's what's described in these
`paragraphs.
` Q I didn't see anywhere here where you're
`actually offering any construction of the claims of the
`'080 patent.
` Did I miss anything?
` A No. I'm not offering specific construction,
`just using plain meaning for the terms in this case.
` Q So when you say "plain meaning," what do you
`mean?
` MR XU: Objection. Calls for a legal
`conclusion.
` THE WITNESS: Yeah. In paragraph 35, it says
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`Conducted on May 1, 2024
`
`12
`
`[reading]:
` Other evidence may be considered to
` ascertain the meaning of the claim
` terms, including textbooks,
` encyclopedias, articles, and
` dictionaries.
` But in general, I am just using the meaning of
`the terms as those terms would be understood by one of
`ordinary skill in the art.
`BY MR. FAHMI:
` Q So you mentioned one of ordinary skill in the
`art. And on page 13 in your report, paragraph 31, I
`think you offer a definition of who that person of
`ordinary skill in the art would be.
` Is that right?
` A That's right.
` Q How did you -- sorry.
` How did you conclude that that's who the
`person of ordinary skill in the art would be?
` (Telephonic interruption.)
` MR. FAHMI: Sorry. That's my phone. Go
`ahead, I'm sorry about that.
` THE WITNESS: This particular definition was
`first offered by Dr. Mudge, and I adopted this
`definition as he proposed it.
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`Transcript of Robert W. Horst, Ph.D.
`Conducted on May 1, 2024
`
`13
`
` I may have worded it differently myself, but
`in general, I agree with the level that [reading]:
` A person of ordinary skill in the
` art would have had a bachelor's
` degree in electrical engineering,
` computer science, computer
` engineering, material science,
` physics, applied physics, or a
` related field.
` And at least two years of
` experience in research, design,
` development, or testing of
` electronic circuits or components
` or software for controlling
` electronic circuits or components,
` or the equivalent, with additional
` education substituting for
` experience and vice versa.
`BY MR. FAHMI:
` Q You mentioned Dr. Mudge. Who is Dr. Mudge?
` A Dr. Mudge was an expert for a previous IPR for
`the '080 patent, and my expert declaration started with
`Dr. Mudge's expert report, as requested by the attorneys
`in this case.
` Q Did you meet with Dr. Mudge to discuss your
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`Conducted on May 1, 2024
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`14
`
`report?
` A No, I did not.
` MR XU: I'm going to caution the witness not
`to disclose any communication with the attorneys.
`BY MR. FAHMI:
` Q Why did you adopt Dr. Mudge's report?
` A I was requested to start with that for
`procedural reasons, and then I modified the report and
`added any additional information that I thought should
`be added to the material that Dr. Mudge had already
`presented.
` Q Considering the definition here in
`paragraph 31 of the person of ordinary skill in the art,
`what type of work experience would that individual have?
` MR XU: Objection. Form.
` (Reporter clarification.)
` THE WITNESS: As it says in this paragraph,
`the person would have had at least two years' experience
`in the research, design, development or testing of
`electronic circuits or components or software
`controlling electronic circuits or components or the
`equivalent.
`BY MR. FAHMI:
` Q So what's involved in the research of
`electronic circuits or components?
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`Transcript of Robert W. Horst, Ph.D.
`Conducted on May 1, 2024
`
`15
`
` A In designing electronics, the engineer needs
`to study particular components and particular structures
`and architectures to understand how to create and
`analyze existing computer structures, for instance.
` (Reporter clarification.)
`BY MR. FAHMI:
` Q What's involved in the design of electronic
`circuits or components?
` A The design involves selecting components, and
`then connecting those components either through a design
`language or through a schematic diagram, and then
`analyzing to make sure that the design meets the
`requirements for the product.
` Q What's involved in the development of
`electronic circuits or components?
` A Development is kind of a broad term related to
`all of the steps of going from an idea into a product.
`So it involves the design, the testing, and often
`developing software and testing the software.
` Q And in this context, what do you mean by
`"testing"?
` MR XU: Objection. Vague.
` THE WITNESS: I'm speaking of verifying that
`the design meets the requirements.
` So that usually involves writing some code and
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`Transcript of Robert W. Horst, Ph.D.
`Conducted on May 1, 2024
`
`16
`
`executing that code, and verifying that it produces the
`correct results.
`BY MR. FAHMI:
` Q Are there any particular skills an individual
`would have to have in order to be considered a person of
`ordinary skill in the art?
` MR XU: Objection. Asked and answered.
` THE WITNESS: The definition specifies
`particular skills, like electrical engineering or
`computer science, and mentions several other fields that
`the person of ordinary skill should be familiar with.
`BY MR. FAHMI:
` Q So I read that in your report as indicating a
`level of education, for example, a bachelor's degree.
` Are you saying that there are particular
`skills involved in those fields as well?
` A The definition also says that additional
`education can substitute for experience and vice versa.
` So if there's not formal education, there
`could be practical experience in designing those
`circuits, for instance.
` Q So if I understand you, an individual could be
`a person of ordinary skill without an actual bachelor's
`degree; is that right?
` A That's right. It wouldn't require a degree if
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`Transcript of Robert W. Horst, Ph.D.
`Conducted on May 1, 2024
`
`17
`
`there was commensurate experience that the individual
`had in the areas related to the -- to this patent.
` MR. FAHMI: Let's turn to Exhibit 1007,
`please.
` (Deposition Exhibit 1007 was
` marked for identification.)
` THE WITNESS: I'll have to look that up in
`the -- okay.
` Okay. I have it here.
`BY MR. FAHMI:
` Q So this is what's been referred to in your
`report, I believe, as Sutardja '748.
` Is that right?
` A That's right.
` Q And you recognize this exhibit, correct?
` A Yes, I do.
` Q And in your declaration, you offer testimony
`concerning Sutardja '748, correct?
` A Yes, I do.
` I also combine this with the other Sutardja
`reference and call the two of them together just
`Sutardja in some cases.
` Q Why did you do that?
` A The Sutardja '748 includes another Sutardja
`patent, by reference. So it is effectively a single
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`Transcript of Robert W. Horst, Ph.D.
`Conducted on May 1, 2024
`
`18
`
`reference.
` Q When is the last time you had a chance to
`review this Sutardja '748 reference?
` A I've been reviewing this over the last few
`days.
` Q If you look at the abstract on page 1, it
`references a core switching system that includes a mode
`switching module, et cetera.
` Do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q Is it fair to say, then, that Sutardja '748
`discusses dynamically switching cores in a multi-core
`processing system?
` MR XU: Also, please feel free to review the
`reference before.
` THE WITNESS: Sutardja discusses a multi-core
`architecture, and there's quite a bit in Sutardja, so
`I'm not sure if your summary included everything that is
`in Sutardja.
`BY MR. FAHMI:
` Q Let's take a look at figure 5.
` A Yes, I'm there.
` Q So in figure 5, what are we looking at here,
`Dr. Horst?
` A This is a block diagram that shows a
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`Conducted on May 1, 2024
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`19
`
`low-performance core and a high-performance core and
`some logic for switching between these cores.
` Q Because there's two cores, is that why it's
`considered multi-core?
` A This diagram shows two cores, although the
`text of Sutardja also says there could be multiple
`high-performance cores, so that's why it's a multi-core
`architecture.
` Q On the lower left there, we see a core
`switching module labeled 212.
` Do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q Is that what's responsible for switching
`between one core and another core?
` A That's part of the logic that's responsible
`for switching between the cores. That plus the
`hypervisor, which is the software which helps determine
`when to do the switch.
` Q The hypervisor you're referring to is labeled
`213 in figure 5; is that right?
` A Yes, it's labeled 213.
` Q What is a hypervisor?
` A That -- the hypervisor is described in my
`expert report. I can go to that section.
` Sutardja talks about hypervisor, but another
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`Transcript of Robert W. Horst, Ph.D.
`Conducted on May 1, 2024
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`20
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`description of hypervisor is from the Shen reference,
`which is on page 66 of my expert report, and it says
`[reading]:
` A hosted hypervisor is a hypervisor
` that runs inside the operating
` system. It is installed and runs
` as an application on top of an
` operating system.
` The bare-metal hypervisor runs
` directly on the hardware.
` So a hypervisor is a way of determining and
`migrating where processes run in a machine.
` Q Let's take a look at paragraph 254 of the
`Sutardja reference.
` A Okay. I'm there.
` Q In paragraph 254, it says [reading]:
` The term hypervisor generally
` refers to a virtualization platform
` that allows multiple operating
` systems to run at the same time on
` a host computer.
` Do you see that?
` A Yes, I see that.
` Q Do you know what's meant by a "virtualization
`platform" in that context?
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`Conducted on May 1, 2024
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`21
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` MR XU: Objection. Speculation.
` THE WITNESS: A virtualization platform is
`generally a software that allows multiple different
`operating systems or multiple copies of the same
`operating system to run on a machine, and to be able to
`switch between which version of those is running on a
`machine.
`BY MR. FAHMI:
` Q Is a hypervisor something that a person of
`ordinary skill in the art in the field of the '080
`patent would understand?
` A Virtual machines have been used in the
`industry for many years, so I would believe that someone
`of ordinary skill would understand how that works.
` Q Later on, in paragraph 254 in Sutardja, it
`says [reading]:
` The hypervisor typically operates
` above the kernel. Alternatively,
` the hypervisor may operate below
` the kernel.
` Do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q I think that's consistent with something that
`you pointed out earlier, right?
` A Yes. It's talking about whether it could run
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`Conducted on May 1, 2024
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`22
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`either above or below the kernel, bare bones or as an
`application above the kernel.
` Q So when it says "the hypervisor typically
`operates above the kernel," what would the person of
`ordinary skill in the art understand that means?
` A The author is pointing out that it --
`hypervisors often run above the kernel. But it doesn't
`say that it exclusively runs above the kernel. So they
`may run above or below the kernel.
` Q Right. That's what it says. I'm trying to
`understand what it means.
` What does it mean to operate above the kernel
`versus below the kernel?
` MR XU: Objection. Asked and answered.
` THE WITNESS: Operating above the kernel means
`that the hypervisor can evoke and dispatch different
`kernels underneath it. Where, if it's bare bones, that
`the software of the hypervisor is actually written to
`run directly on the machine, not -- not above a kernel
`of the machine.
`BY MR. FAHMI:
` Q When you say it runs "directly on the
`machine," do you mean the hypervisor is actually
`controlling the hardware in that instance?
` A A hypervisor that's running bare bones is
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`Conducted on May 1, 2024
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`23
`
`running code directly on the machine.
` So you would boot the hypervisor, as opposed
`to first booting an operating system and then running a
`hypervisor on top of it.
` Q So in the case of the hypervisor operating
`below the kernel, the hypervisor is what is
`communicating directly with the hardware.
` Am I understanding you correctly?
` MR XU: Objection. Incomplete hypothetical.
` THE WITNESS: The hypervisor would be running
`directly on the hardware, so it would be executing on
`the hardware itself.
`BY MR. FAHMI:
` Q What does it mean to execute on the hardware?
` A There would be routines, for instance, drivers
`that would communicate directly with the hardware, as
`opposed to communicating, say, with those peripherals
`through an operating system mechanism.
` Q In the next paragraph in Sutardja,
`paragraph 255, it indicates that [reading]:
` The hypervisor manages transfers
` between the processors and suspends
` operation of one asymmetric
` processor while the other
` asymmetric processor operates.
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` Do you see that?
` A Yes, I see that.
` Q Is that an example of a hypervisor running
`directly on the hardware?
` A It's not clear to me that that requires it to
`run directly on the hardware, but certainly it could
`perform that function if it runs directly on the
`hardware.
` Q A little bit earlier in the same column, in
`paragraph 253, Sutardja is discussing what happens
`[reading]:
` When the LP core reaches its
` highest operating speed and
` additional system loading occurs.
` Do you see that?
` A I see that.
` Q There's an indication that, in such a
`circumstance, the core switching module triggers a
`transition.
` Do you see that?
` A It says [reading]:
` And generate a system call to a
` hypervisor module 213 or a core
` switching module 212 to trigger a
` transition.
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`25
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` Q Right. So is Sutardja saying that the PMS
`module and/or the kernel module generates a system call
`to either the hypervisor or the core switching module to
`trigger a transition?
` MR XU: Objection. Mischaracterizes witness'
`testimony.
` THE WITNESS: It says [reading]:
` Generate a system call to a
` hypervisor module or a core
` switching module to trigger a
` transition.
` Yes.
`BY MR. FAHMI:
` Q What does "generate a system call" mean?
` A A system call is generally a call to an
`operating system routine.
` Normally an operation that's low-level to the
`hardware requires permissions from the operating system
`to perform that kind of operation.
` Q So in this case, it's the kernel that's
`generating the call; is that right?
` MR XU: Objection to the extent it
`mischaracterizes the document.
` THE WITNESS: It says the PMS module and/or
`kernel module. So it could be the kernel module or the
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`Conducted on May 1, 2024
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`26
`
`PMS module that does that.
`BY MR. FAHMI:
` Q The PMS module and the kernel module are both
`part of the operating system; is that right?
` MR XU: Objection. Vague as to "operating
`system."
` THE WITNESS: I'd have to see if it's
`specifically calling out the PMS module as part of the
`operating system or as a separate module.
`BY MR. FAHMI:
` Q Let's take a look at paragraph 123 of your
`expert report.
` A Okay.
` Q At the end of the paragraph, you say
`[reading]:
` Sutardja discloses an operating
` system that includes a kernel
` module and a PMS module.
` Do you see that?
` A Yes, I see that.
` Q Does that refresh your recollection as to
`whether both the kernel module and the PMS module are
`part of the operating system?
` A Yes. That says that both are part of the
`operating system.
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`27
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` Q So looking back at paragraph 253 of Sutardja,
`the passage we were just discussing, it's the operating
`system, the PMS module and/or the kernel module that
`generates the system call to the hypervisor module or
`the core switching module.
` Is that right?
` A That's right.
` MR XU: Objection. Mischaracterizes the
`document.
`BY MR. FAHMI:
` Q Did I mischaracterize the document, Dr. Horst?
` A You read from a portion of the document but
`didn't include the complete context, so I think that's
`what the attorney was referring to.
` Q What context did I miss?
` A The rest of paragraph 253.
` Q Well, let's look at the rest of paragraph 253.
` Paragraph 253 says that in the case [reading]:
` When the LP core 200 reaches its
` highest operating speed and
` additional system loading occurs,
` the core profile module 240, the
` PMS module 242, and/or the
` kernel module 220 disable
` interrupts and generate a system
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`Conducted on May 1, 2024
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`28
`
` call to a hypervisor module 213 or
` a core switching module 212 to
` trigger a transition.
` You with me so far?
` A Yes.
` Q The paragraph goes on and says [reading]:
` Core switching module 212 may be
` standalone or may be integrated
` with the hypervisor module 213.
` Correct?
` A Yes, that's the next sentence.
` Q Paragraph goes on and says [reading]:
` The core switching module 212 may
` transition (switch) the operation
` from the LP core 200 to the
` HP core 204 in response to the
` system call and return control to
` the kernel module 220 after the
` transition (switching) is complete.
` Correct?
` A Yes. That's the complete paragraph.
` Q So a person of ordinary skill in the art
`reading paragraph 253, would that person understand that
`the operating system, that is, the PMS module and/or the
`kernel module, disables interrupts, generates the system
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`Conducted on May 1, 2024
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`29
`
`call to the hypervisor module or the core switching
`module, and then the core switching module, whether it's
`standalone or integrated, makes the transition from the
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