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`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`Case IPR2023-00757
`Patent No. 8,989,715
`-----------------------------------x
`NETFLIX, INC.,
` Petitioner,
`
` - against -
`
`GOTV STREAMING, LLC,
` Patent Owner.
`-----------------------------------x
` April 2, 2024
` 11:30 a.m.
`
` Remote video-teleconference
`deposition via Zoom of STUART LIPOFF,
`pursuant to Notice, before Jineen Pavesi,
`a Registered Professional Reporter,
`Registered Merit Reporter, Certified
`Realtime Reporter and Notary Public of the
`State of New York.
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`Netflix v. GoTV
`IPR2023-00758
`Netflix Ex. 1029
`
`

`

`Page 2
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`A P P E A R A N C E S :
`
`WILLKIE FARR & GALLAGHER, LLP
`1875 K Street NW
`Washington, DC 20006
` Attorneys for Petitioner
`BY: STEPHEN A. MARSHALL, ESQ.
` smarshall@willkie.com
`
`ALAVI & ANAIPAKOS PLLC
`609 Main Street, #3200
`Houston, Texas 77002
` Attorneys for Patent Owner
`BY: JOSHUA WYDE, ESQ.
` jwyde@aatriallaw.com
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
`RAJARSHI CHAKRABORTY, LAW CLERK,
`WILLKIE
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`Page 3
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` S T U A R T L I P O F F having
`been first duly sworn remotely upon
`agreement of all counsel, as hereinafter
`certified, was examined and testified as
`follows:
`EXAMINATION BY
`MR. MARSHALL:
` Q. Good morning, Mr. Lipoff.
` A. Good morning, Mr. Marshall.
` Q. Can you please state your full
`name for the record.
` A. Yes.
` First name is Stuart,
`S-T-U-A-R-T, last name Lipoff,
`L-I-P-O-F-F.
` Q. What's the city and state of
`your current residence?
` A. I am currently in Las Vegas,
`Nevada.
` Q. Mr. Lipoff, you've given
`testimony several times in the past,
`correct?
` A. I have, yes.
` Q. So you probably know the rules
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` LIPOFF
`of the road here, but do you understand
`that you're under oath today?
` A. I do.
` Q. It's important to give audible
`answers so the court reporter can take
`those down, is that all right?
` A. I understand.
` Q. It's important that we don't
`talk over each other, so I will ask you to
`let me finish my question before you start
`to answer and I'll wait for you to answer
`before I start again, understood?
` A. Understood.
` Q. If you need to take a break
`please let me know.
` But if there is a question
`pending I'd ask you to finish your answer
`before requesting a break, okay?
` A. Okay.
` Q. If you answer my question, I
`will assume you've understood my question,
`all right?
` A. Okay.
` Q. Is there any reason you can't
`
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` LIPOFF
`give truthful and accurate testimony
`today?
` A. Nothing I'm aware of.
` Q. This is a long question, so
`bear with me.
` Do you understand that you're
`here today to answer questions regarding
`your declarations that accompanied GoTV's
`patent-owner responses regarding U.S.
`Patent No. 8,989,715 in IPR No. IPR
`2023-00757, U.S. Patent No. 8,478,245 in
`IPR No. IPR 2023-00758, and U.S. Patent
`No. 8,103,865 in IPR No. IPR 2023-00759?
` A. That is my understanding, yes.
` Q. If I refer to the IPRs in the
`plural, will you understand that I'm
`referring to these three proceedings?
` A. I understand.
` Q. Did you receive deposition
`notices for each of the IPRs that you're
`here today to testify?
` A. I think it was one document,
`but, yes, all three were mentioned.
` Q. Very good, thank you.
`
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` LIPOFF
` Do you understand that we're
`holding this one deposition regarding all
`three declarations?
` A. That's my understanding, yes.
` Q. What did you do to prepare for
`the deposition today?
` A. Well, I reviewed my report, my
`declarations, I should say, I looked at
`some of the cited exhibits and references,
`and I spent a significant part of last
`week doing that and I had a conference
`call yesterday with Mr. Wyde.
` Q. Just a little bit of
`housekeeping here to make sure we're on
`the same page.
` If I refer to the '715 patent,
`will you understand that I'm talking about
`U.S. Patent 8,989,715?
` A. Yes.
` Q. If I refer to the '245 patent,
`will you understand I'm talking about U.S.
`Patent 8,478,245?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And if I refer to the '865
`
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`Page 7
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` LIPOFF
`patent, will you understand that I'm
`talking about U.S. Patent 8,103,865?
` A. I understand, yes.
` Q. I'm going to go ahead and mark
`the '715, it was previously marked Exhibit
`1001 in the 757 IPR; I've dropped that in
`the exhibits folder.
` Can you all see that?
` A. I need to leave the screen,
`but, yeah, I see it, sir.
` Q. Mr. Lipoff, do you recognize
`the document just entered as the '715
`patent that you provided a declaration
`for?
` A. Yes.
` If it's okay, let me get the
`hard copy, it's pretty hard to see on the
`screen.
` Q. Of course.
` (Pause.)
` Q. And if you have the '245 and
`'865 patent there, you might grab those as
`well.
` A. Okay.
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` LIPOFF
` They are in different books.
` Q. Sorry about that.
` (Pause.)
` A. Okay, I have hard copies of all
`three patents here in front of me.
` Q. Very good, all right.
` The '715 patent that you've got
`there, is that the same '715 patent on
`which you offered some opinions?
` A. Yes.
` Q. I am also going to drop into
`the exhibit folder the '245 patent and
`that is previously marked Exhibit 1001 in
`the 758 IPR.
` A. Yes, I have that as well with
`that exhibit number.
` Q. Is that the same '245 patent on
`which you offered opinions in the
`proceedings?
` A. Yes.
` Q. I'm also going to drop into the
`exhibit folder the '865 patent, which was
`previously marked Exhibit 1001 in the 759
`proceeding.
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` LIPOFF
` Does the copy that you've got
`there match the '865 patent on which you
`offered an opinion in this proceeding?
` A. Yes, although when I look at
`that exhibit folder, I only see the '715.
` Q. I think you may have to hit
`your F5 key or refresh.
` A. Oh, okay.
` (Witness complying.)
` A. Nothing has changed -- oh,
`here we go, I see them now.
` Q. Very good.
` Marching along through this,
`you also discuss some prior art references
`raised by Netflix in your declarations, is
`that correct?
` A. Yes, I did.
` Q. I am going to drop into the
`exhibit folder what's been previously
`marked as Exhibit 1006 in the 757 IPR.
` Mr. Lipoff, that's Hariki, and
`then we're going to go to Harris next.
` A. I see the Hariki and the Harris
`references that are in that marked exhibit
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` LIPOFF
`folder.
` Q. Very good.
` The Hariki reference that you
`have there, that's the Hariki reference
`that you discuss in your declaration, is
`that right?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. And then you're one step ahead
`of me; I also dropped into the exhibit
`folder what has previously been marked
`Exhibit 1007 in the 757 IPR.
` Is that the Harris reference
`that you discuss in your declarations?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. I've already done it, but if I
`refer to Hariki, will you understand that
`I'm talking about U.S. Patent Application
`Publication No. 2007/0150617?
` A. Yes.
` Q. If I refer to Harris, will you
`understand that I'm talking about U.S.
`Patent Application Publication No.
`2003/0023755?
` A. Yes.
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` LIPOFF
` Q. You discuss Harris in your
`declarations, is that right?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Did you interpret Harris
`consistently in each of the declarations?
` A. I believe so, yes, I tried.
` Q. You discussed Hariki in each of
`your declarations as well, is that
`correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Did you interpret Hariki
`consistently in each of the declarations?
` A. Yes, I tried to.
` Q. Very good.
` One last exhibit for you for
`now; I'm going to put into our exhibit
`folder what's previously marked Exhibit
`2022 in the 757 IPR and that's your '715
`declaration.
` A. Okay.
` Q. After this I won't make you
`reach for your books for a little while.
` A. Yes, that's okay, I had that
`one on top.
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` LIPOFF
` Q. Of course this Exhibit 2022 in
`the 757, you recognize that as your '715
`declaration?
` A. Yes, Exhibit 2022, yes.
` Q. If I could ask you to turn to
`page 56, do you see Section D?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Here you address the claim term
`customized to set application, is that
`right?
` A. Yes, that's the title of that
`section.
` Q. This addresses certain claim
`limitations that you identified here,
`1(b), 9(b) and 17(b), is that right?
` A. 1(b), 9(b) and 17(b), correct.
` Q. You're welcome to flip through
`as needed, but in this section are you
`saying here that there has to be a
`one-to-one relationship between the
`claimed custom configuration and the
`claimed application?
` A. Well, I'm not sure what you
`mean by a one-to-one relationship.
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` LIPOFF
` What I say here is the
`application -- the custom configuration
`means created for the application.
` Q. Would you say the customized to
`set application means the custom
`configuration was created for an
`application?
` A. Yes, so the claim limitation is
`customized to set application, so my
`understanding is it means, as I say here
`in paragraph 121, means that the custom
`configuration was created for the
`application.
` Q. Is that to say that the custom
`configuration has to be unique to a
`particular application?
` A. I hadn't really thought about
`whether -- it's possible that two
`different applications might have the same
`custom configuration, it's not something I
`considered, but at the very least the
`custom configuration that's the subject of
`this claim term has to have been created
`for the application that's running.
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` LIPOFF
` Q. I am just trying to understand,
`if it's created for a particular
`application, does that exclude the
`possibility that it could be used by a
`different application?
` A. I hadn't considered one way or
`the other whether it's a possibility that
`some elements of the custom configuration
`might or might not be also applied with
`another application.
` The scope of what I was dealing
`with was the claim term and the claim term
`is telling you that the custom
`configuration was created for the
`application and so you start with the
`application and you create the custom
`configuration, and if there is another
`application, you would start with the
`application, you would create the custom
`configuration for that.
` Q. I see.
` So you haven't necessarily
`opined on whether the custom configuration
`that's created for one application might
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`Page 15
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` LIPOFF
`be the same as the custom configuration
`created for another application, it's just
`that in each instance there has to be a
`creation step, is that correct?
` A. I have not considered the
`possibilities the custom configuration
`that was created for one application might
`also have some elements for a completely
`separate application, there might be some
`overlap, that's not something I
`considered.
` Q. In your declaration you mention
`that you were at the District Court trial,
`is that right?
` A. Yes, I was for most of it; I
`didn't stay until the very end.
` Q. Do you recall that GoTV's
`position was that movie box art, the image
`from a movie that used to appear on the
`cover of a DVD or VHS box, do you recall
`that that is what GoTV relied on for
`satisfying the custom configuration, from
`your experience at trial?
` A. I'm sorry, I don't recall that
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` LIPOFF
`particular presentation.
` Q. For the sake of completeness,
`Mr. Lipoff, I am going to drop into the
`folder, the exhibit folder, your '245
`declaration, that was previously marked
`Exhibit 2022 in the 758 IPR.
` A. Okay, let me get that out.
` (Pause.)
` Q. Do you have the '245
`declaration?
` A. I have a copy of it, I haven't
`seen it yet, let me see if it's in the
`folder.
` I don't see it in the folder,
`but I have a copy of it.
` Q. Let me try that again.
` (Pause.)
` Q. Do you see it in the folder
`now, just to make sure we have everything
`in there that should be?
` A. Let me refresh it and see if
`it's there.
` (Pause.)
` A. Yes, I see both the '715 expert
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` LIPOFF
`declaration and the '245 expert
`declaration, Exhibit 2022.
` Q. Very good.
` Coming back to our discussion
`here about customized to set application,
`you've offered a similar opinion regarding
`the meaning of this term as it appears in
`the claims of the '245 patent, is that
`right?
` A. I believe I had the same
`opinion on all of them; if you want to
`refer me to that section of the '245, I'll
`take a look to make sure.
` Q. Sure, yes, I think it's page 42
`of the '245 declaration.
` A. Okay.
` (Witness perusing document.)
` A. Yes, they're referring to --
`some of the claims are slightly different,
`but the concept is the same.
` '245, it's referring to claims
`1(b), 12(b) and 23(f).
` Q. So would you agree that your
`analysis for those limitations of the '245
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`Page 18
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` LIPOFF
`patent generally track your analysis for
`1(b), 9(b) and 17(b) of the '715 patent?
` A. Relative to the term customized
`to set application, yes, I would agree.
` Q. Let's turn back to the '715
`declaration and if you can let me know
`when you're there, paragraph 122.
` A. Okay.
` You directed me to paragraph
`122, is that correct?
` Q. Correct.
` A. I am there.
` Q. In here, in this paragraph 122,
`you quote column 3 from lines 9 to 11, do
`you see that?
` A. I see that, yes.
` Q. And you quote from the patent
`"server may identify a custom
`configuration to be used."
` That doesn't say identify the
`one and only one custom configuration to
`be used, does it?
` A. You read that correctly.
` Q. You'll agree that the
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`Page 19
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` LIPOFF
`quotations that you have in this paragraph
`122, none of them indicate that there is
`only one custom configuration that can be
`used for an application, correct?
` A. Well, I disagree with your
`interpretation.
` As I say here in paragraph 122,
`the server chooses a custom configuration
`with the application in mind, the patent
`issues that each application may have a
`corresponding custom configuration and I
`do quote to column 16, 50 to 53, and
`column 19, 25 to 29.
` So as I conclude here in
`paragraph 122, when I read the claim
`limitations with the specification in mind
`and understanding of what the patent owner
`was trying to express, my understanding is
`a custom configuration is one that was
`specifically designed with the application
`in mind.
` Q. You mention this quotation from
`column 16, where it says "may have a
`corresponding custom configuration."
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`Page 20
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` LIPOFF
` Isn't the "may" in that phrase,
`isn't that somewhat flexible or
`permissible?
` A. I don't understand that to be
`the case; I understand that in light of
`how the entire claim term is being used,
`in light of the specification, that the
`patent is teaching that the custom
`configuration is one that was customized
`to the application.
` The application is first
`identified and then associated with that
`is a custom configuration which was
`created for the application.
` Q. When you say the application is
`identified, is that based on the request
`from the client device?
` A. It's based upon -- well, claim
`1(b) is -- states that the custom
`configuration is associated with an
`application and so in the '715 patent it
`would be the application that is currently
`running, the application that's currently
`running in the system would be the one
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` LIPOFF
`that the custom configuration would have
`been designed for.
` Q. To be clear -- sorry, go
`ahead.
` A. And, again, you have to read
`the entire claim 1, it says that there is
`an execution of an application -- the
`application as it existed in claim 1 is
`the same application in every one of the
`claim limitations.
` So reading the entirety of
`claim 1, it is telling you that there is
`an execution -- there is an application
`which is executing and that application
`has associated with it a custom
`configuration which has been customized or
`designed to render content in a manner
`customized to the application.
` Customized and the application
`are linked together.
` Q. To be clear, you're not saying
`that the custom configuration is
`necessarily created at the first execution
`or simultaneous to execution of the
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`application, is that right?
` A. I'm not opining on how a
`variety of different things happen in the
`system prior to or after the limitations
`are in the claim.
` The claim 1 here at issue is
`basically identifying and executing
`application and, read in its entirety, is
`telling me that that application has
`associated with it a custom configuration
`which was created with the application in
`mind and that when the application is
`running it's, as other limitations in the
`claim term say, it's using the rendering
`blocks that have been configured by the
`custom configuration as limitation 1(g)
`indicates.
` So my understanding of the
`particular claim 1(b) and the custom
`configuration is based upon my
`understanding of the entire claim 1,
`reading it in light of the specification.
` Q. You'll agree with me that the
`'715 patent teaches a situation in which
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` LIPOFF
`the custom configuration already exists on
`the client device and at the time of
`execution of the application there is just
`an identification of the custom
`configuration to be used sent back to the
`client?
` A. The '715 patent specification,
`consistent with claim 1, does not say
`exactly when the custom configuration is
`installed or configured on the device.
` But in order to practice the
`claim as it's written, the custom
`configuration needs to be there before the
`application starts sending content to the
`rendering blocks.
` So the possibility is the
`patent allows for the fact that the custom
`configuration could have been installed on
`the device before the end user identifies
`the application or it could be something
`that's sent, that's configured on the
`device, after the end user identifies the
`application.
` But in any event, before the
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` LIPOFF
`application starts generating content,
`which is targeted to the rendering blocks,
`the custom configuration needs to be
`resident on the device.
` Q. Let's turn to paragraph 142 of
`the declaration, that's page 65.
` Are you there?
` A. Page 65, oh, okay, I went too
`far.
` (Pause.)
` A. Okay, I'm there.
` Q. You've actually said this
`morning a couple of times, and it's in
`this paragraph as well, the custom
`configuration is made with the application
`in mind.
` Here in the paragraph 142
`you're making reference to the Texas
`Hold'em example, do you see that?
` A. I see that, yes.
` Q. When you say that it's made
`with the application in mind, what do you
`mean by that, to have it in mind?
` A. Well, the custom configuration
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` LIPOFF
`is a -- it configures a plurality of
`rendering blocks, that's what it does, and
`the rendering blocks are the things, are
`the target, of the compiled content.
` And so the rendering blocks
`have to be able to support the output of
`the application.
` So in my paragraph 142 I
`identify an example such as Texas Hold'em,
`which is giving the end user a virtual
`experience of playing poker and there's
`various aspects of playing poker that
`involve displaying graphics, such as suits
`of cards.
` So there would be custom
`configuration rendering blocks that would
`support the -- configure the suits of
`cards, spades, clubs, diamonds, hearts,
`and so forth.
` Q. You would agree with me, then,
`that in that Texas Hold'em example, the
`custom configuration impacts the display
`on the phone, right, with those suits that
`you just mentioned, correct?
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` LIPOFF
` A. The custom configuration not
`just in this application, the custom
`configuration, as the patent uses the term
`and as it appears in claim 1, is resident
`configured on the actual device and the
`application that's sending content to that
`device is sending compiled content to the
`rendering blocks of the custom
`configuration to render content on the
`device.
` Q. In fairness, Mr. Lipoff, the
`custom configuration configures the
`rendering blocks to output the compiled
`content in a certain manner, is that
`right?
` A. The custom configuration
`consists of the rendering blocks that are
`associated with that application.
` Q. So ultimately the custom
`configuration comes to bear, if you will,
`in the display shown to the end user on
`the phone, is that right?
` A. No, I would not agree with
`that.
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` LIPOFF
` The custom configuration can
`include rendering blocks which are not
`necessarily limited to display.
` Q. That's fair, because there are
`audio files and perhaps others to consider
`as well, is that what you've got in mind?
` A. That as well as other
`rendering blocks allowing for user input
`and other things.
` But reading just claim 1(b) by
`itself, it consistently makes the point
`that the custom configuration configures a
`plurality of rendering blocks to render
`content.
` So the custom configuration is
`what is described in the patent as
`configuring the plurality of rendering
`blocks.
` Q. Later in paragraph 142, it's
`actually the very first line on page --
`let me start over.
` At the top of page 66 of your
`'715 declaration you say, "The UI skin is
`specific to items executing on the phone,"
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` LIPOFF
`do you see that?
` A. I see that, yes, you read that
`correctly.
` Q. Would you agree that the UI
`skin, Hariki, impacts what is displayed on
`the phone?
` A. The UI skin can impact, yes,
`the UI skin can impact what's being
`displayed on the phone.
` Q. Is your understanding of the UI
`skin that it arrives at the phone through
`one means or another and then layers
`configuration information onto the phone
`such that it is then as a display
`according to that UI skin?
` A. I want to make sure I
`understand your question.
` I think you're asking me when
`the UI skin is resident on the phone, will
`it affect display of what's shown on the
`phone, and I think I answered that; the
`answer is yes.
` Q. In the patent you'll agree with
`me, correct, that the rendering blocks on
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` LIPOFF
`the phone are not part of the Texas
`Hold'em application it's executing on the
`server?
` A. The rendering blocks are
`resident on the phone.
` They have been selected as part
`of the custom configuration based upon the
`Texas Hold'em application, but the
`application referred to in paragraph 142
`is being executed remotely, not on the
`phone, and is generating compiled content
`which is being sent through the phone and
`the target of the compiled content or
`rendering blocks.
` Q. Let's turn to paragraph 144 in
`your declaration.
` A. I see that.
` Q. Is it accurate to say that
`you're opining here that the UI authoring
`tool and the web server at least can
`reside on the same computer in Hariki, do
`you agree with that?
` A. I'm sorry, I missed the last
`part of your question, just repeat that.
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` LIPOFF
` Q. Would you agree that the UI
`authoring tool and the web server can at
`least reside on the same computer in
`Hariki?
` A. Well, Hariki provides a couple
`of different examples of where the web
`server can exist.
` It shows one example, just
`referring to Figure 1 of Hariki, it shows
`one example of where the authoring tool
`and the web server can be on the same
`computer.
` It shows another example where
`in Figure 1, item 106, which is a web
`server, can be on a computer that does not
`include the user interface tool.
` But in both cases, both cases
`in Figure 1, they're addressing the same
`application that's in application 122
`which is shown running on the phone in
`Hariki.
` Q. In Hariki and in this section
`of your declaration, you seem to challenge
`the notion that the UI authoring tool and
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` LIPOFF
`the web server can work together in any
`way.
` Is that a fair
`characterization?
` A. Well, you know, I think my
`words are pretty precise here.
` I say that just because the two
`pieces of software reside on the computer
`doesn't make them part of a suite and
`there's no disclosure that I can find in
`Hariki that the web server and authoring
`tool interact in any way.
` The authoring tool is
`associated with creating the UI skin and
`not associated with the process of the end
`user requesting content, which comes from
`the web browser.
` There's no indication that any
`of the user interaction with the remote
`server or the --
` THE COURT REPORTER: I didn't
`hear you.
` A. Let me try that again.
` There is no indication in
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` LIPOFF
`Hariki that the web server that's sending
`content to the web browser in Hariki in
`any way is requesting anything from the UI
`content server, which is an item that's
`shown in Figure 5 of Hariki, they're
`completely separate systems that don't
`interact while the application is being
`employed in Hariki.
` I should say, to be clearer, to
`what Netflix identifies as the application
`in Hariki, which is in some cases
`identified as the web browser, in some
`cases identified as web server, but
`regardless of which one that Netflix
`identifies as the application in Hariki,
`the UI authoring tool is operating
`essentially independently, not interacting
`in any way.
` Q. There is some discussion here
`and perhaps in the petition too, but the
`word suite, that it's a suite of tools,
`you seem to take particular issue with
`that, is that right?
` A. I do have some discussion here
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` LIPOFF
`about well-accepted definition of suite,
`that is correct.
` Q. It seems to me that you're
`taking particular issue with the notion
`that the UI authoring tool and the web
`server can be part of the same suite, but
`you're not excluding the possibility that
`two programs on the same computer can work
`jointly together without being part of a
`suite necessarily, is that right?
` A. No, I don't agree with that.
` I think I was fairly clear in
`my paragraph 144 that what a suite means,
`it means a set of computer programs
`designed to work together and sold as a
`single unit.
` So working together has a
`variety of different aspects associated
`with it.
` What I am saying here in
`paragraph 144, the fact they happen to
`reside on the same computer, as one of the
`embodiments in Hariki shows, does not mean
`they are a suite, because they would have
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` LIPOFF
`to work together.
` Q. Setting aside the notion of a
`suite, you wouldn't go so far as to say
`that two programs that are not part of a
`suite could still work together to
`accomplish a common task?
` A

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