`
` 2
`
` DISCLAIMER
`
` THIS IS A ROUGH DRAFT TRANSCRIPT. IT HAS BEEN
`
` 3 TRANSLATED FROM STENO TO ENGLISH BY COMPUTER. THIS
`
` 4 TRANSCRIPT HAS BEEN NEITHER EDITED NOR PROOFREAD BY THE
`
` 5 COURT REPORTER.
`
` 6
`
` 7
`
` 8
`
` 9
`
` 10
`
` 11
`
` 12
`
` ATKINSON BAKER, INC.
`
` Deponent ,
`
` having been first duly sworn, was
`
` examined and testified as follows:
`
`Q. BY MR. ALEMANNI: Good morning. I apologize
`
` 13 if I get the pronunciation right. Is it Ramde?
`
` 14
`
` 15
`
` 16
`
` 17
`
`A. Yes, that's right.
`
`Q. And is it Mr. or Doctor?
`
`A. It's just Mr.
`
`Q. I want to make sure I get that right. My
`
` 18 name is John Alemanni. I'm an attorney with Kilpatrick
`
` 19 Townsend in Raleigh, North Carolina here on behalf of
`
` 20 Lenovo and are you -- do you know why you're here this
`
` 21 morning?
`
` 22
`
` 23
`
` 24
`
`A. Yes.
`
`Q. And why is that?
`
`A. It's part of the deposition -- the
`
`Petitioners Lenovo Holding Company Inc., et al.
`Exhibit 1020 - Page 1 of 58
`
`1
`
`Exhibit 1045
`Samsung v. DoDots
`IPR2023-00701
`
`
`
` 25 deposition is part of the IPR that was filed and it's
`
` 1
`
` 1 part of that process I think.
`
` 2
`
`Q. So there are two proceedings. The first
`
` 3 proceeding is IPR2019-01278 and that concerns patent
`
` 4 number 802-0083. And then there's a second IPR and
`
` 5 that is IPR2019-01279 and the patent number at issue in
`
` 6 that case is A510407. Both of these proceedings are
`
` 7 between Lenovo and DoDots. Does that sound right to
`
` 8 you?
`
` 9
`
` 10
`
`A. Yes.
`
`Q. And so you submitted declarations in both
`
` 11 those proceedings; correct?
`
` 12
`
` 13
`
`A. Correct.
`
`Q. And do you have a copy of that declaration
`
` 14 in front of you?
`
` 15
`
` 16
`
`A. I do.
`
`Q. Okay. And in both of the two different
`
` 17 proceedings it's labeled Exhibit 2003. Do you see
`
` 18 that?
`
` 19
`
` 20
`
`A. Yes.
`
`Q. So I'll refer to -- I'll probably just refer
`
`Petitioners Lenovo Holding Company Inc., et al.
`Exhibit 1020 - Page 2 of 58
`
`2
`
`
`
` 21 to one of them but I'll refer to it as Exhibit 2003 or
`
` 22 your declaration and those will mean the same thing.
`
` 23 Is that okay?
`
` 24
`
` 25
`
`A. Okay.
`
`Q. And are you familiar with referring to
`
` 2
`
` 1 patents by the last three digits?
`
` 2
`
` 3
`
`A. I am.
`
`Q. So if I say the 083 patent you'll understand
`
` 4 what I mean?
`
` 5
`
` 6
`
` 7
`
` 8
`
` 9
`
`A. Yes.
`
`Q. Okay. Great. Have you been deposed before?
`
`A. I have.
`
`Q. About how many times?
`
`A. I think twice.
`
` 10
`
`Q. Twice. Okay. So you know generally how
`
` 11 they run.
`
` 12
`
` 13
`
`A. Yes.
`
`Q. So you're under oath. You've already
`
` 14 provided your direct testimony so this is
`
` 15 cross-examination but you're under oath and you'll be
`
` 16 answering my questions unless your counsel instructs
`
` 17 you not to answer. He may object but if he objects but
`
`Petitioners Lenovo Holding Company Inc., et al.
`Exhibit 1020 - Page 3 of 58
`
`3
`
`
`
` 18 doesn't instruct you not to answer I'll expect you to
`
` 19 answer the questions. Is there any reason why you
`
` 20 can't give your best testimony today?
`
` 21
`
` 22
`
`A. No.
`
`Q. One thing I will ask especially with the
`
` 23 phone and video I'll try hard not to talk over you.
`
` 24 I'd appreciate if you do the same. I apologize if I
`
` 25 interrupt you. If you have any trouble understanding a
`
` 3
`
` 1 question please let me know and I'll either state it
`
` 2 again or if I need to I can rephrase it. But if you
`
` 3 don't understand me please ask me, please let me know
`
` 4 you don't understand it and if you don't ask me to
`
` 5 restate it or you don't tell me that you don't
`
` 6 understand, then I'm going to assume you do understand
`
` 7 it. Okay?
`
` 8
`
` 9
`
`A. Okay.
`
`Q. Okay. And so there are two declarations
`
` 10 because there's two different proceedings. They are
`
` 11 almost exactly the same. Is that your recollection as
`
` 12 well?
`
` 13
`
`A. The proceedings meaning the IPR proceedings
`
`Petitioners Lenovo Holding Company Inc., et al.
`Exhibit 1020 - Page 4 of 58
`
`4
`
`
`
` 14 are the same?
`
` 15 Q. The two different IPR. You submitted two
`
` 16 declarations but they're almost the same. Is that your
`
` 17 recollection?
`
` 18 A. Yeah. My declarations -- my declarations
`
` 19 are the same or the IPRs are the same?
`
` 20 Q. The declaration that you submitted in each
`
` 21 of the two IPRs is essentially the same?
`
` 22 A. Yeah, they kind of cover the same material
`
` 23 and information, yes.
`
` 24 Q. And did you review anything in preparation
`
` 25 for your deposition?
`
` 4
`
` 1 A. I reviewed my declaration what I submitted.
`
` 2 Q. And your declaration includes exhibits;
`
` 3 correct?
`
` 4 A. Yes.
`
` 5 Q. And did you review those as well?
`
` 6 A. Not -- just briefly. Just to make sure that
`
` 7 I had them when I printed out the declaration, but
`
` 8 yeah.
`
` 9 Q. And is it your understanding that the
`
` 10 exhibits are the same for both declarations that are
`
`Petitioners Lenovo Holding Company Inc., et al.
`Exhibit 1020 - Page 5 of 58
`
`5
`
`
`
` 11 submitted in each of the IPR proceedings?
`
` 12 A. That -- that is my understanding at this
`
` 13 time. I have them printed out in front of me just the
`
` 14 main four pages in the front and -- you know, where I
`
` 15 had my statement and the exhibits I have a print out of
`
` 16 the exhibits. My understanding -- my understanding is
`
` 17 that they are -- I'm going to be using both exhibits
`
` 18 for both of the declarations. So I understand that
`
` 19 they are the same. That's what my recollection is in
`
` 20 submitting the declarations.
`
` 21 Q. Okay. So you reviewed your declaration, you
`
` 22 reviewed the exhibits. Did you do anything else in
`
` 23 preparation for your deposition?
`
` 24 A. Not really. Just in terms of coordinating
`
` 25 and making sure I understood the set up for the
`
` 5
`
` 1 deposition being done by video and just understanding
`
` 2 that process.
`
` 3 Q. Okay. So did you speak to counsel in
`
` 4 preparation for your deposition other than for
`
` 5 logistics?
`
` 6 A. It was for the logistics for the -- for the
`
`Petitioners Lenovo Holding Company Inc., et al.
`Exhibit 1020 - Page 6 of 58
`
`6
`
`
`
` 7 deposition and then just understanding kind of where
`
` 8 things are at in terms of where we are in the IPR and
`
` 9 just high level understanding that this was for the IPR
`
` 10 aspect.
`
` 11 Q. Okay. Did you speak to anyone other than
`
` 12 counsel in preparation for your deposition?
`
` 13 A. No.
`
` 14 Q. So I'm going to turn to your deposition and
`
` 15 I'm going to turn to the first paragraph. So this is
`
` 16 again for the record is Exhibit 2003. I'm on the -- I
`
` 17 don't think the pages are numbered but I'm on page --
`
` 18 the page after the cover page so we're at paragraph 1.
`
` 19 Do you see that?
`
` 20 A. For the 083 patent?
`
` 21 Q. For the 083 patent, yes.
`
` 22 A. Yes.
`
` 23 Q. And do you have both declarations in front
`
` 24 of you?
`
` 25 A. I do. 0487 and 083.
`
` 6
`
` 1 Q. I'm going to focus on the 083 and to the
`
` 2 extent there are any differences I May ask you about
`
` 3 the other one but for the most part I'll stick with the
`
`Petitioners Lenovo Holding Company Inc., et al.
`Exhibit 1020 - Page 7 of 58
`
`7
`
`
`
` 4 083 to make it easier?
`
` 5 A. Okay.
`
` 6 Q. So paragraph 1 you talk about -- you discuss
`
` 7 that you were the sole in house counsel for DoDots and
`
` 8 then in paragraph 9 which is on the third page you talk
`
` 9 about your educational background. Do you see that?
`
` 10 A. Yes.
`
` 11 Q. So I'd like to start -- I'd like to start
`
` 12 with your background and I guess I'd rather do it in
`
` 13 chronological order so I'll you some questions about 9
`
` 14 and then ask you questions about 1 if that's okay.
`
` 15 A. Okay.
`
` 16 Q. So you state in paragraph 9 that you have a
`
` 17 bachelor of science in electrical engineering from
`
` 18 UCLA; right?
`
` 19 A. Correct.
`
` 20 Q. When did you get your bachelors in
`
` 21 electrical engineering?
`
` 22 A. In 1989.
`
` 23 Q. And what about the masters in engineering
`
` 24 from USC?
`
` 25 A. USC was 1991.
`
` 7
`
`Petitioners Lenovo Holding Company Inc., et al.
`Exhibit 1020 - Page 8 of 58
`
`8
`
`
`
` 1 Q. And then you also mention in paragraph 9
`
` 2 that you have a JD degree, juris doctorate degree from
`
` 3 the University of Pittsburgh and an MBA from Carnegie
`
` 4 Mellon. Was that a joint JD MBA program?
`
` 5 A. That was, yes.
`
` 6 Q. And when did you receive the JD and MBA?
`
` 7 A. In 1996.
`
` 8 Q. Was that a four year program?
`
` 9 A. It was a four year program, yes.
`
` 10 Q. And so you start -- did you start the
`
` 11 program in 1992? Is that accurate?
`
` 12 A. It's a little -- it was a dual degree
`
` 13 program, a joint degree program. I did finish it a
`
` 14 little bit ahead of schedule than the full four years.
`
` 15 And so when I graduated Carnegie Mellon it was -- the
`
` 16 degree -- so I obtained separate degrees from Carnegie
`
` 17 Mellon and the University of Pittsburgh. Normally dual
`
` 18 degree programs are with the same school. This one was
`
` 19 with two different schools so it was a separate
`
` 20 process. I ended up graduating from each school at
`
` 21 different times within the 1996 time frame, so they
`
` 22 were both graduating in 1996 but just in different time
`
` 23 frames. When I started the program the first year was
`
` 24 at the University of Pittsburgh and it was just the
`
`Petitioners Lenovo Holding Company Inc., et al.
`Exhibit 1020 - Page 9 of 58
`
`9
`
`
`
` 25 legal and then I started the Carnegie Mellon the second
`
` 8
`
` 1 year. So I didn't start at the same time. So I can't
`
` 2 really be sure what my official start year was for each
`
` 3 one. They just kind of happened. It was just kind of
`
` 4 a structured program. I don't know what my official
`
` 5 start year was for each of the programs but I can't
`
` 6 really say what my official, you know, time per was
`
` 7 other than what was written on the form. Sorry. It
`
` 8 was a long time ago.
`
` 9 Q. Your testimony is it fair to say it was '92,
`
` 10 '93. Somewhere in that range?
`
` 11 A. Yeah, that's right. That's right.
`
` 12 Q. Did you work as an engineer after you
`
` 13 graduated in 1989?
`
` 14 A. Yes.
`
` 15 Q. And where was that?
`
` 16 A. It was at Hughes Electronics, Hughes
`
` 17 Aircraft in 1989 as an engineer.
`
` 18 Q. And what did you do for Hughes aircraft?
`
` 19 A. I was a member of the technical staff which
`
` 20 was the title and it was essentially an engineer and I
`
` 21 was working on the direct TV satellite program and
`
`Petitioners Lenovo Holding Company Inc., et al.
`Exhibit 1020 - Page 10 of 58
`
`10
`
`
`
` 22 different satellite programs building hardware and
`
` 23 simulation software for devices.
`
` 24 Q. Okay. Are you a software programmer as well
`
` 25 then?
`
` 9
`
` 1 A. At the time I was doing software
`
` 2 programming.
`
` 3 Q. And did you leave Hughes aircraft when you
`
` 4 started your degree program at USC?
`
` 5 A. Yes.
`
` 6 Q. So when did you leave Hughes aircraft?
`
` 7 A. It would have been 19 -- around 1993
`
` 8 time frame. I was with Hughes for four years. Yes.
`
` 9 Q. So did you leave Hughes when you started
`
` 10 your law studies?
`
` 11 A. I left Hughes to start my law studies, yes.
`
` 12 Q. So is it fair to say that you got your
`
` 13 masters while you were working for Hughes?
`
` 14 A. That's right. Yes.
`
` 15 Q. And you graduated with your JD MBA in '96,
`
` 16 injure JD and MBA in 1996 and then moving back to
`
` 17 paragraph 1 of your declaration you said you were
`
`Petitioners Lenovo Holding Company Inc., et al.
`Exhibit 1020 - Page 11 of 58
`
`11
`
`
`
` 18 working for DoDots in 2000; correct?
`
` 19 A. Correct.
`
` 20 Q. So what did you do when -- strike that. Did
`
` 21 you begin a job with a law firm when you graduated from
`
` 22 University of Pittsburgh?
`
` 23 A. I started -- I had -- well, I was work at a
`
` 24 business consulting firm. More leveraging the MBA
`
` 25 aspect.
`
` 10
`
` 1 Q. Do you recall the name of the business
`
` 2 consulting firm you worked for?
`
` 3 A. Yeah. It goes by the initials PRTM. I can
`
` 4 spell that out but it's a long name. It's now part of
`
` 5 Pricewaterhouse.
`
` 6 Q. How long did you work for PRTM?
`
` 7 A. PRTM was for about -- I had worked there
`
` 8 over the summer before I graduated so it was probably
`
` 9 for around nine months total.
`
` 10 Q. Nine months. Okay. So from -- would it be
`
` 11 fair to say '95 to '97 in that time frame?
`
` 12 A. Yeah, '95 to '96 time frame. I had actually
`
` 13 started there before I graduated from the -- I had
`
` 14 graduated from the business school first and I had
`
`Petitioners Lenovo Holding Company Inc., et al.
`Exhibit 1020 - Page 12 of 58
`
`12
`
`
`
` 15 continued so I started there before I had finished my
`
` 16 law degree.
`
` 17 Q. And then what did you do when you left PRTM?
`
` 18 A. Then I sat for the bar exam and I joined a
`
` 19 law firm.
`
` 20 Q. Which law firm did you join?
`
` 21 A. It was called Lyon and Lyon, L-y-o-n,
`
` 22 L-y-o-n, Lyon and Lyon. Patent boutique.
`
` 23 Q. And what did you do for Lyon and Lyon?
`
` 24 A. It was mostly doing -- like technical review
`
` 25 on patent -- I wasn't a patent attorney but it was
`
` 11
`
` 1 doing working with patent attorneys and filing office
`
` 2 actions and evaluating technology and differentiating
`
` 3 technology there.
`
` 4 Q. And how long were you with HRAO*EUPB and
`
` 5 HRAO*EUPB?
`
` 6 A. I was there for about three years. Yeah. I
`
` 7 think -- yeah, a little less than three years.
`
` 8 Q. Did you move from HRAO*EUPB and HRAO*EUPB to
`
` 9 DoDots?
`
` 10 A. No. I went to coolly.
`
`Petitioners Lenovo Holding Company Inc., et al.
`Exhibit 1020 - Page 13 of 58
`
`13
`
`
`
` 11 Q. And when did you go to coolly?
`
` 12 A. That I believe would have been 1999.
`
` 13 Q. And what were you doing for coolly?
`
` 14 A. Just working in their technology group.
`
` 15 They had -- mostly within technology licensing.
`
` 16 Q. So are you familiar with the parts of a
`
` 17 patent, the claims specification et cetera?
`
` 18 A. Yes, I am.
`
` 19 Q. And then you left coolly to join DoDots; is
`
` 20 that correct?
`
` 21 A. Correct.
`
` 22 Q. Do you recall when you started with DoDots
`
` 23 in 2000?
`
` 24 A. I believe it was May.
`
` 25 Q. May.
`
` 12
`
` 1 A. Beginning of May.
`
` 2 Q. Okay. And what was your role at DoDots?
`
` 3 A. I was their counsel, just sole in-house
`
` 4 counsel.
`
` 5 Q. So the one difference that I observed in
`
` 6 your two declarations is in paragraph 8. And I'd like
`
` 7 to ask you about it briefly. In the 083 case you say
`
`Petitioners Lenovo Holding Company Inc., et al.
`Exhibit 1020 - Page 14 of 58
`
`14
`
`
`
` 8 in paragraph 8 that you were counsel for DoDots.
`
` 9 A. Uh-huh.
`
` 10 Q. And if you turn to the 407 case I believe in
`
` 11 paragraph 8 you say you were general counsel?
`
` 12 A. General counsel, yeah.
`
` 13 Q. Are those both accurate?
`
` 14 A. Yeah, they're both accurate. I'm kind of
`
` 15 taking that role for the company, those roles, so kind
`
` 16 of used them interchangeably within the company.
`
` 17 Q. Okay.
`
` 18 Q. And how long were you with DoDots?
`
` 19 A. I was there until I believe February of --
`
` 20 February or so of 2001. About nine months.
`
` 21 Q. Let's go to paragraph 2 in your declaration.
`
` 22 Again, I'm looking at the 0883 patent, the declaration
`
` 23 in relation to that. You say -- you make the statement
`
` 24 here that led by twin brothers John and George Kembel,
`
` 25 K-e-m-b-e-l, and then you say that the team of
`
` 13
`
` 1 scientists from Stanford who invented the ground
`
` 2 breaking technology described in the 083 patent;
`
` 3 correct?
`
`Petitioners Lenovo Holding Company Inc., et al.
`Exhibit 1020 - Page 15 of 58
`
`15
`
`
`
` 4 A. Correct.
`
` 5 Q. Did I read that correctly?
`
` 6 A. Yeah.
`
` 7 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't hear you.
`
` 8 A. Yes.
`
` 9 Q. You say the ground breaking technology
`
` 10 described in the 083 patent. Are you talking about the
`
` 11 specification or the claims?
`
` 12 A. Well, I'm looking at the entire 083 patent.
`
` 13 I'm generally referring to the 083 patent. And the
`
` 14 technology is described in the specification and the
`
` 15 claims and they're pioneers in the fact that they have
`
` 16 claims that were obtained, so that they are considered
`
` 17 to be new, novel ideas.
`
` 18 Q. And when you say the idea you're talking
`
` 19 about the Dots?
`
` 20 A. Just the claims. I'm referring in general
`
` 21 to the claims themselves.
`
` 22 Q. Do you know whether or not the term Dot
`
` 23 appears in the claims?
`
` 24 A. I don't believe it does appear in the
`
` 25 claims. I'd have to look -- I don't believe it appears
`
` 14
`
`Petitioners Lenovo Holding Company Inc., et al.
`Exhibit 1020 - Page 16 of 58
`
`16
`
`
`
` 1 in the claims. I don't have the patent in front of me
`
` 2 but -- yeah.
`
` 3 Q. And in your other declaration for the 407
`
` 4 you make the same statement about the 407 patent;
`
` 5 correct?
`
` 6 A. Correct.
`
` 7 Q. Are the specifications and claims the same
`
` 8 in those two patents?
`
` 9 MR. PERRY: Objection. Foundation.
`
` 10 THE WITNESS: I don't have the patents in front
`
` 11 of me so I can't say the specifications are the same.
`
` 12 Q. BY MR. ALEMANNI: And you left DoDots in
`
` 13 February of 2001 if I understood your testimony; is
`
` 14 that correct?
`
` 15 A. That's what I recall, yes. That's my --
`
` 16 what I remember.
`
` 17 Q. Do you know when DoDots was formed?
`
` 18 A. I don't know the exact time it was formed.
`
` 19 Q. Do you have an idea generally when it was
`
` 20 formed?
`
` 21 A. You know, I really don't have any -- I
`
` 22 wasn't involved in the formation of the company so I
`
` 23 really can't speak to that.
`
` 24 Q. Do you know -- was DoDots dissolved?
`
` 25 A. I was not -- I don't know about -- I don't
`
`Petitioners Lenovo Holding Company Inc., et al.
`Exhibit 1020 - Page 17 of 58
`
`17
`
`
`
` 15
`
` 1 know what happened on the formal proceedings with
`
` 2 regards to the company after I left.
`
` 3 Q. Was a DoDots an ongoing company when you
`
` 4 left it?
`
` 5 A. Yes, I believe it was.
`
` 6 Q. Approximately how many employees did DoDots
`
` 7 have when you joined in May of 2000?
`
` 8 A. I believe it had -- I don't know -- I
`
` 9 know -- I believe it had somewhere between 50 and 80
`
` 10 employees when I joined.
`
` 11 Q. What about when you left?
`
` 12 A. When I left it had fewer than 50. When I
`
` 13 left it had undergone a round of work force reduction
`
` 14 before I left. I don't remember how many people we let
`
` 15 go at that time and then there was a second round of
`
` 16 reductions and then that's when I was let go in
`
` 17 February.
`
` 18 Q. When you say under 50 do you have -- can you
`
` 19 be more specific about the number?
`
` 20 A. I can't remember how many were at that
`
` 21 point. After I joined it did grow to over a hundred
`
`Petitioners Lenovo Holding Company Inc., et al.
`Exhibit 1020 - Page 18 of 58
`
`18
`
`
`
` 22 and then I just don't know what that actual number was
`
` 23 through the work force reduction stages.
`
` 24 Q. And then paragraph 3 you discuss evaluation
`
` 25 of the company and you referred to a website -- I'm
`
` 16
`
` 1 sorry. We can skip that. Let's talk about paragraph
`
` 2 4. So in paragraph 4 you identify a CNN article dated
`
` 3 April 7, 2000. Do you see that?
`
` 4 A. Yes.
`
` 5 Q. Can you turn to that CNN article for a
`
` 6 second for me, please.
`
` 7 A. Actually --
`
` 8 Q. It's Exhibit B?
`
` 9 A. Exhibit B I have -- I may need to pull that
`
` 10 up. The printout I had is from the exhibit -- it's the
`
` 11 graduate school of business.
`
` 12 MR. PERRY: Do you want to share your screen,
`
` 13 John?
`
` 14 MR. ALEMANNI: I can. Let's see.
`
` 15 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
`
` 16 MR. ALEMANNI: You're fine.
`
` 17 Q. Let's go back a step then. So you have -- I
`
` 18 just want to confirm. So you have a declaration that
`
`Petitioners Lenovo Holding Company Inc., et al.
`Exhibit 1020 - Page 19 of 58
`
`19
`
`
`
` 19 you filed in both proceedings. The declaration, the
`
` 20 083 patent to confirm has a cover page; correct?
`
` 21 A. Correct.
`
` 22 Q. And then the declaration itself is ten
`
` 23 paragraphs covering three pages. Is that what you have
`
` 24 as well?
`
` 25 A. On the 083?
`
` 17
`
` 1 Q. Yes.
`
` 2 A. Yes.
`
` 3 Q. Okay. And then following your declaration
`
` 4 is Exhibit A. Do you see that?
`
` 5 A. Yeah. I have a printout of an Exhibit A and
`
` 6 B. But I just printed out the -- I can pull it up on
`
` 7 my computer.
`
` 8 Q. That might be easier for me pulling it up
`
` 9 and trying to walk through it. You can look at
`
` 10 whatever you want to.
`
` 11 A. I know they're slightly different. I'm just
`
` 12 not pulling up the exhibit.
`
` 13 Q. If it's helpful I can pull my screen up.
`
` 14 A. If it's okay. I'm sorry.
`
`Petitioners Lenovo Holding Company Inc., et al.
`Exhibit 1020 - Page 20 of 58
`
`20
`
`
`
` 15 Q. No, you're fine. Let's see. Share screen.
`
` 16 Can you see Exhibit B now?
`
` 17 A. Yes.
`
` 18 Q. I don't know if you can control the screen
`
` 19 or not but if you need to see anything just let me
`
` 20 know. Okay?
`
` 21 A. Okay.
`
` 22 Q. This is Exhibit B to your first declaration
`
` 23 in the 083 patent. So do you recognize this document?
`
` 24 A. Yes.
`
` 25 Q. And what is it?
`
` 18
`
` 1 A. It was -- it's an article that was written
`
` 2 by DoDots back in the -- dated 2000.
`
` 3 Q. So DoDots authored this article?
`
` 4 A. It was written about DoDots. I don't know
`
` 5 who -- I believe it was written by -- yeah, I don't
`
` 6 know who the author is.
`
` 7 Q. So about a third of the way down the page it
`
` 8 says Chris Yurko. Do you see that?
`
` 9 A. Yes.
`
` 10 Q. Do you know Chris Yurko?
`
` 11 A. I don't.
`
`Petitioners Lenovo Holding Company Inc., et al.
`Exhibit 1020 - Page 21 of 58
`
`21
`
`
`
` 12 Q. Okay. And it appears from the face of this
`
` 13 article that it was posted on a website on April 7,
`
` 14 2000. Do you see that?
`
` 15 A. Yes.
`
` 16 Q. Do you know if it was actually posted in
`
` 17 April 2000?
`
` 18 A. I have -- I just knew that this article -- I
`
` 19 don't know when it was actually posted. I'm just
`
` 20 relying on the date that is there. I mean, I don't
`
` 21 think I read it on that date to make sure that that was
`
` 22 the date that it was posted.
`
` 23 Q. And on the very top corner of this page do
`
` 24 you see that the date April 24, 2020?
`
` 25 A. Yes.
`
` 19
`
` 1 Q. Do you know what that signifies?
`
` 2 A. I don't.
`
` 3 Q. Did you find this article for your
`
` 4 declaration?
`
` 5 A. I made note that there was an article -- I
`
` 6 knew there were articles published on DoDots. I may
`
` 7 have made mention of this article, yes.
`
`Petitioners Lenovo Holding Company Inc., et al.
`Exhibit 1020 - Page 22 of 58
`
`22
`
`
`
` 8 Q. And outside of communication with your
`
` 9 counsel I'm asking how you came into possession of the
`
` 10 article?
`
` 11 A. I don't recall exactly how.
`
` 12 Q. And I'm going to move down a little bit in
`
` 13 this article and again if you need me to more anywhere
`
` 14 else to see the context please don't hesitate to ask
`
` 15 me. I want to point out about midway through the page
`
` 16 that I have up now it says essentially it's a little
`
` 17 web application on your desk top. Do you see that?
`
` 18 A. Yes.
`
` 19 Q. And then it says -- it says there's a quote
`
` 20 from Jack Kembel. Do you see that?
`
` 21 A. Yes.
`
` 22 Q. And the next paragraph it's quoting his twin
`
` 23 brother George Kembel. Do you see that?
`
` 24 A. Yes.
`
` 25 Q. Are those the two inventors of the patents?
`
` 20
`
` 1 A. Yes.
`
` 2 Q. Let's see. The very last paragraph says
`
` 3 upon DoDots launch this week. Do you see that?
`
` 4 A. Yes.
`
`Petitioners Lenovo Holding Company Inc., et al.
`Exhibit 1020 - Page 23 of 58
`
`23
`
`
`
` 5 Q. So is it your understanding that DoDots
`
` 6 product launched in April of 2000?
`
` 7 A. I don't know. I don't know the answer.
`
` 8 Q. And this article at least based on the face
`
` 9 of it was published before you joined DoDots; correct?
`
` 10 A. Correct.
`
` 11 Q. Let's see.
`
` 12 A. If that was the publish date, yes.
`
` 13 Q. I'm going to move down a little bit further
`
` 14 in this Exhibit B to your declaration. So I want to
`
` 15 draw your attention now to page 2 of 3 of that article,
`
` 16 Exhibit B of your declaration. The last two paragraphs
`
` 17 here I'd like to draw your attention to. The first one
`
` 18 begins DoDots are free of charge. Do you see that?
`
` 19 A. Yes.
`
` 20 Q. Is that your understanding that DoDots were
`
` 21 free? Strike that. Is it your understanding that Dots
`
` 22 were free of charge?
`
` 23 A. My understanding is that the Dots that were
`
` 24 identified there that were available at the time were
`
` 25 free of charge.
`
` 21
`
`Petitioners Lenovo Holding Company Inc., et al.
`Exhibit 1020 - Page 24 of 58
`
`24
`
`
`
` 1 Q. And the sentence continues, but the beta 1
`
` 2 versions are now available only to users with Internet
`
` 3 Explorer 4 or later versions of the browser; correct?
`
` 4 Did I read at a correctly?
`
` 5 A. Yes.
`
` 6 Q. Was the -- let me back up. Strike that.
`
` 7 Were the Dots ever released in something other than a
`
` 8 beta version?
`
` 9 A. That I don't recall. I don't know how we
`
` 10 were identifying the versions of the software. And
`
` 11 oftentimes in the software world they call things beta
`
` 12 for a long time even though they make a lot of changes
`
` 13 and improvements to it.
`
` 14 Q. Was there a time when Dots were not free of
`
` 15 charge?
`
` 16 A. I can't recall. I can't recall that. I
`
` 17 know that there were some different plans and different
`
` 18 business models and I don't know -- in all cases there
`
` 19 may have been some scenarios where they were free to
`
` 20 the users to download but there may have been a charge
`
` 21 to the distributor so it's a matter of who was it free
`
` 22 for.
`
` 23 Q. I'm going to stop the share. Is there
`
` 24 anything else you need to look at in this document?
`
` 25 A. I'm good. Thank you.
`
`Petitioners Lenovo Holding Company Inc., et al.
`Exhibit 1020 - Page 25 of 58
`
`25
`
`
`
` 22
`
` 1 Q. Normally you would be holding it so I
`
` 2 wouldn't have to say it. Let's move on. I want to go
`
` 3 back to your declaration itself and ask you some
`
` 4 questions about paragraph 6. So paragraph 6 you talk
`
` 5 about the industry wide Dot comp crash; correct?
`
` 6 A. Correct.
`
` 7 Q. And you say DoDots was forced to sell it's
`
` 8 patent portfolio. Do you see that?
`
` 9 A. Yes.
`
` 10 Q. Who did they sell the patent portfolio to?
`
` 11 A. I believe they sold it to light house
`
` 12 capital.
`
` 13 Q. Do you recall how many patents were in that
`
` 14 patent portfolio?
`
` 15 A. At the time there was -- it was just
`
` 16 applications.
`
` 17 Q. Do you recall how much the patent portfolio
`
` 18 was sold for?
`
` 19 A. I don't know how much it was sold for or if
`
` 20 it was in lieu of -- light source was an investor in
`
` 21 DoDots at some point and I believe they had either a
`
` 22 lien or some investment in the company so there may
`
`Petitioners Lenovo Holding Company In