·1· · · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·2· · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
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`·3· ·________________________________________________________
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`·4· · · · · · · · SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD,
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`·5
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Petitioner,
`·6
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · v.
`·7
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`·8· · · · · · · ·DODOTS LICENSING SOLUTIONS LLC,
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · Patent Owner.
`· · ·________________________________________________________
`10
`· · · · · ·Case IPR2023-00621 (US Patent No. 8,020,083)
`11
`· · · · · ·Case IPR2023-00701 (US Patent No. 8,510,407)
`12
`· · · · · ·Case IPR2023-00756 (US Patent No. 9,369,545)
`13· ·________________________________________________________
`
`14
`· · · · · · · · · VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF
`15
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · GEORGE KEMBEL
`16
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · MAY 17, 2024
`17
`· · · · · · Page 1 - 68· · · · ·8:34 a.m. - 10:17 a.m.
`18
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`19
`· · ·REPORTED BY:
`20· ·KAITLYN B. HOUSTON
`· · ·CA CSR No. 14170
`21· ·Job Number 24-137041
`· · ·BILLING FR Ref. 39843-0148IP1
`22· · · · · · · · · ·39843-0149IP1
`· · · · · · · · · · ·39843-0150IP1
`23
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`24
`
`25
`
`1
`
`Exhibit 1032
`Samsung v. DoDots
`IPR2023-00701
`
`
`
`·2· · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`·3· ·________________________________________________________
`
`·4· · · · · · · · SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD,
`
`·5
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·Petitioner,
`·6
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · v.
`·7
`
`·8· · · · · · · ·DODOTS LICENSING SOLUTIONS LLC,
`
`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · Patent Owner.
`· · ·________________________________________________________
`10
`· · · · · ·Case IPR2023-00621 (US Patent No. 8,020,083)
`11
`· · · · · ·Case IPR2023-00701 (US Patent No. 8,510,407)
`12
`· · · · · ·Case IPR2023-00756 (US Patent No. 9,369,545)
`13· ·________________________________________________________
`
`14
`· · · · · · · · · VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF
`15
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · GEORGE KEMBEL
`16
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · MAY 17, 2024
`17
`· · · · · · Page 1 - 68· · · · ·8:34 a.m. - 10:17 a.m.
`18
`
`19
`· · ·REPORTED BY:
`20· ·KAITLYN B. HOUSTON
`· · ·CA CSR No. 14170
`21· ·Job Number 24-137041
`· · ·BILLING FR Ref. 39843-0148IP1
`22· · · · · · · · · ·39843-0149IP1
`· · · · · · · · · · ·39843-0150IP1
`23
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`24
`
`25
`
`1
`
`Exhibit 1032
`Samsung v. DoDots
`IPR2023-00701
`
`
`
`·1
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`·2
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`·3
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`·4
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`·5· · · · ·REMOTE VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF
`
`·6· ·GEORGE KEMBEL, taken on behalf of the Petitioner,
`
`·7· ·commencing from 8:34 a.m. to 10:17 a.m., Friday, May 17,
`
`·8· ·2024, before Kaitlyn B. Houston, CA CSR No. 14170
`
`·9
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`10
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`11
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`12
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`13
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`14
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`15
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`16
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`17
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`18
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`20
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`21
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`2
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`·1· ·APPEARANCE OF COUNSEL:
`
`·2
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`·3· · · · On behalf of the Petitioner:
`
`·4· · · · · · ·FISH & RICHARDSON P.C.
`· · · · · · · ·BY:· MICHAEL BALLANCO, ESQ.
`·5· · · · · · · · · CHRISTOPHER VON GUNTEN, ESQ.
`· · · · · · · ·1000 Maine Avenue SW
`·6· · · · · · ·Suite 1000
`· · · · · · · ·Washington, California 20024
`·7· · · · · · ·(202) 783-5070
`· · · · · · · ·ballanco@fr.com
`·8· · · · · · ·vongunten@fr.com
`
`·9· · · · On behalf of the Patent Owner and Witness:
`
`10· · · · · · ·DAIGNAULT IYER LLP
`· · · · · · · ·BY:· CHANDRAN B. IYER, ESQ.
`11· · · · · · ·8618 Westwood Center Drive
`· · · · · · · ·Suite 150
`12· · · · · · ·Vienna, Virginia 22182
`· · · · · · · ·(917) 838-9795
`13· · · · · · ·cbiyer@daignaultiyer.com
`
`14
`· · · · · On behalf of Apple, Inc.
`15
`· · · · · · · ·ERISE IP
`16· · · · · · ·BY:· CHRISTINA CANINO, ESQ.
`· · · · · · · · · · PAUL HART, ESQ.
`17· · · · · · ·717 17th Street
`· · · · · · · ·Suite 1400
`18· · · · · · ·Denver, Colorado 80202
`· · · · · · · ·(913) 777-5600
`19· · · · · · ·christina.canino@eriseip.com
`· · · · · · · ·paul.hart@eriseip.com
`20
`
`21· ·Also Present:· Petitioner, Jyun Jin In
`
`22
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`23
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`24
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`25
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`3
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`·1· · · · · · · · · INDEX TO EXAMINATION
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`·2· · · · · · · · ·WITNESS: GEORGE KEMBEL
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`·3· ·EXAMINATIONS· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
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`·4· ·Mr. Ballanco:....................................· · 5
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`·5
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`·6
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`·7· · · · · · QUESTIONS INSTRUCTED NOT TO ANSWER
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`·8· · · · · · · · · · · Page· · ·Line
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·NONE
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`10
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`11
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`12· · · · · · · · · ·INDEX TO EXHIBITS
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`13· ·EXHIBIT· · · · · · · DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
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`14· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·NONE
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`15
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`16
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`17
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`18
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`20
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`25
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`4
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`·1· · · · · · · · Friday, May 17, 2024, 8:34 a.m.
`
`·2· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·--o0o--
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`·3· · · · · · · · All counsel present stipulate
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`·4· · · · · ·that the witness shall be sworn remotely
`
`·5· · · · · · · · · · by the court reporter
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`·6· · · · · · · · · · · · · · * * *
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`·7· · · · · · · · · · Whereupon, GEORGE KEMBEL, having been
`
`·8· · · · · · · · · · called as a witness was duly sworn
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · to tell the truth, the whole truth,
`
`10· · · · · · · · · · and nothing but the truth testified
`
`11· · · · · · · · · · as follows:
`
`12· · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION BY MR. BALLANCO
`
`13· · · · Q.· ·Good morning.
`
`14· · · · · · ·Could you please state your name for the
`
`15· ·record, sir?
`
`16· · · · A.· ·George.
`
`17· · · · · · ·You want full name?
`
`18· · · · Q.· ·Please.
`
`19· · · · A.· ·George Andrew Kembel.
`
`20· · · · Q.· ·Thank you, Mr. Kembel.· Nice to be with you
`
`21· ·this morning.· Let me actually introduce myself for the
`
`22· ·record.· I realized I didn't do that.
`
`23· · · · · · ·My name is Michael Ballanco on behalf of the
`
`24· ·Samsung petitioners in the -- in three IPR proceedings,
`
`25· ·which I will read into the record.· They are
`
`5
`
`
`
`·1· ·IPR2023-00621, IPR2023-00701, and IPR2023-00756.
`
`·2· · · · · · ·I am with the Fish & Richardson law firm, and
`
`·3· ·I'm joined on the Zoom this morning by my colleagues
`
`·4· ·Hyun Jin In and Chris von Gunten.
`
`·5· · · · · · ·MR. IYER:· And this is Chandran Iyer from
`
`·6· ·Daignault Iyer for Mr. George Kembel.
`
`·7· · · · · · ·MS. CANINO:· This is Christina Canino and
`
`·8· ·Paul Hart from Erise IP on behalf of Apple, Inc.
`
`·9· ·BY MR. BALLANCO:
`
`10· · · · Q.· ·Mr. Kembel, how many times have you been
`
`11· ·deposed?
`
`12· · · · A.· ·Is -- this will be the first.
`
`13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Especially with it being your first
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`14· ·time, I'd like to go over a few ground rules so that
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`15· ·everything goes smoothly today.· Okay?
`
`16· · · · · · ·And the first is I'd ask that when I ask
`
`17· ·questions, for the sake of our court reporter, you
`
`18· ·respond with an audio response rather than gestures or
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`19· ·head-nodding.· I see you nodding your head a lot. I
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`20· ·would appreciate a "yes" or a "no" if it's a yes-or-no
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`21· ·question just to make the transcription easier.
`
`22· · · · · · ·Is that fair?
`
`23· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`24· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And, Mr. Kembel, you understand that
`
`25· ·you're under oath during today's deposition?
`
`6
`
`
`
`·1· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`·2· · · · Q.· ·And being under oath, you understand that the
`
`·3· ·testimony you give is the same as if you were in court
`
`·4· ·in front of a judge or a jury?
`
`·5· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`·6· · · · Q.· ·And is there any reason, medical or otherwise,
`
`·7· ·that prevents you from giving complete, truthful, and
`
`·8· ·accurate testimony today?
`
`·9· · · · A.· ·No.
`
`10· · · · Q.· ·If that changes at all during the course of
`
`11· ·the deposition, just let me know.· Okay?
`
`12· · · · A.· ·Are you asking me a question?
`
`13· · · · Q.· ·Yeah.
`
`14· · · · · · ·Would you confirm that if that changes, you'll
`
`15· ·let me know?
`
`16· · · · A.· ·I will.
`
`17· · · · Q.· ·Thank you.
`
`18· · · · · · ·If you ever don't understand one of my
`
`19· ·questions, will you let me know and then I'll try to
`
`20· ·rephrase it or re-characterize it?
`
`21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· If you answer a question, I'll -- I'll
`
`23· ·take that as meaning that you understood it.
`
`24· · · · · · ·Is that fair?
`
`25· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`7
`
`
`
`·1· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· We'll try to take breaks about every
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`·2· ·hour, but if you need one before that, let me know and
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`·3· ·I'll let you take one.· Okay?
`
`·4· · · · A.· ·Sounds good.· I did have -- I do have coffee.
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`·5· · · · Q.· ·Right there with you.
`
`·6· · · · A.· ·Beautiful.
`
`·7· · · · Q.· ·And the only caveat I'll give is if there's a
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`·8· ·question pending that I've asked you, I'll ask you to
`
`·9· ·answer that question before we take a break.· Okay?
`
`10· · · · A.· ·Okay.
`
`11· · · · Q.· ·And the last thing I'd like to just mention
`
`12· ·before we get going is, especially with Zoom, I'd ask
`
`13· ·that you try to let me finish my question before you
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`14· ·answer it, and I will do the same with your answers. I
`
`15· ·won't intentionally cut you off.· I'll let you finish
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`16· ·your answer before I proceed to my next question.
`
`17· · · · · · ·Does that sound good?
`
`18· · · · A.· ·Sounds like good etiquette.
`
`19· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So, Mr. Kembel, do you know that I
`
`20· ·deposed your brother yesterday in the same set of
`
`21· ·proceedings?
`
`22· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`23· · · · Q.· ·And did you speak with him after he was
`
`24· ·deposed yesterday?
`
`25· · · · A.· ·No.· He sent me a text that said he was done.
`
`8
`
`
`
`·1· ·I just hearted it.
`
`·2· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And that was the full extent of your
`
`·3· ·interactions following his deposition yesterday?
`
`·4· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`·5· · · · Q.· ·And, sir, you understand that the proceeding
`
`·6· ·-- or proceedings, I should say, we're here about today
`
`·7· ·relate to patents that were filed by your former
`
`·8· ·company, DoDots, in the early 2000s, right?
`
`·9· · · · A.· ·I'm aware.
`
`10· · · · Q.· ·And you submitted a declaration in those
`
`11· ·proceedings?
`
`12· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`13· · · · Q.· ·I'd like to start by asking you, sir, what was
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`14· ·your -- what was your role in DoDots when the company
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`15· ·was active in the early 2000s?
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`16· · · · A.· ·I was founder and CEO.
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`17· · · · Q.· ·You were a founder -- a sole founder?
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`18· ·Co-founder with somebody else?
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`19· · · · A.· ·Co-founder.
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`20· · · · Q.· ·And who is the other co-founder?
`
`21· · · · A.· ·My twin brother, John.
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`22· · · · Q.· ·And was there a division of responsibilities
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`23· ·between you and John for the company in any sort of way?
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`24· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`25· · · · Q.· ·And what was that division?
`
`9
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`
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`·1· · · · A.· ·I was CTO, and he was CTO -- I was CEO, and he
`
`·2· ·was CTO.
`
`·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Does that mean you were more on the
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`·4· ·business side of things versus he was more on the
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`·5· ·technology side of things?
`
`·6· · · · A.· ·That's a fair, like, generalization.
`
`·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· What competitors did DoDots have in the
`
`·8· ·industry?
`
`·9· · · · A.· ·I'm sorry.· I was clearing my throat, and I
`
`10· ·did not hear your question.
`
`11· · · · · · ·Can you please repeat it?
`
`12· · · · Q.· ·No problem at all.
`
`13· · · · · · ·What competitors did DoDots have in the
`
`14· ·industry?
`
`15· · · · A.· ·I'm -- I'm thinking on how to answer that
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`16· ·question.
`
`17· · · · · · ·There were alternatives for people to have
`
`18· ·applications that had the functionality they needed and
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`19· ·places to get information that they needed.· But
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`20· ·there -- at the time, there were not equivalent
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`21· ·offerings that we created, which is one of the reasons
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`22· ·why it was so successful.
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`23· · · · · · ·So I would say no direct competitors.
`
`24· · · · Q.· ·What offerings were out there that you were
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`25· ·trying to differentiate yourself from?
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`10
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`·1· · · · A.· ·Well, we were -- we are creating a whole new
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`·2· ·product category, so we weren't having to differentiate
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`·3· ·from a nonexistent product category.· That new product
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`·4· ·category was providing alternative and expanded and --
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`·5· ·solutions to things that the other available offerings
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`·6· ·did not touch.
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`·7· · · · · · ·And I can give -- I can -- and if I had to
`
`·8· ·simplify it, it would be -- and it's hard to remember,
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`·9· ·perhaps for most of us today who are very familiar with
`
`10· ·the current app and app ecosystem that is so prevalent,
`
`11· ·and it seems so obvious to us now, that was not
`
`12· ·available then.· And for those who were very active
`
`13· ·in -- then, the world was a very different place, and
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`14· ·the primary technologies and products and offerings and
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`15· ·content that people were able to engage with were in
`
`16· ·three fundamentally divided worlds.
`
`17· · · · · · ·One was the client software world where -- and
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`18· ·this is hard to remember then, too -- you would use an
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`19· ·application like a word processor on your desktop, and
`
`20· ·to get that application, you would have to usually get
`
`21· ·it in some physical media because it was very large in
`
`22· ·file size.· And that might be in a CD-ROM or something
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`23· ·else.· You would install that software on your computer
`
`24· ·if it wasn't already installed when you bought it, and
`
`25· ·that took a long time.· But it gave the developers and
`
`11
`
`
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`·1· ·the companies offering those solutions a lot of
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`·2· ·functionality to offer the customers.
`
`·3· · · · · · ·And one of the challenges to that -- and
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`·4· ·that's -- the benefit is great functionality and direct
`
`·5· ·relationship to the customers.· And one of the
`
`·6· ·trade-offs of that level of functionality was the
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`·7· ·difficulty of continuing to keep that software current
`
`·8· ·and to work with current data.
`
`·9· · · · · · ·And so there's this whole thing about, like,
`
`10· ·software versioning, and you have to get the new CD and
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`11· ·all that stuff.· But high functionality, cumbersome to
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`12· ·keep current and work with current information.
`
`13· · · · · · ·The second product market category, which is
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`14· ·totally different, was the merging web.· World Wide Web.
`
`15· ·And we can -- and it's important to distinguish language
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`16· ·here.· We talk about the internet now as one big thing
`
`17· ·because it has become more pervasive and infused into
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`18· ·our daily lives.· It was not that way then.· The
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`19· ·internet and the web were different layers.
`
`20· · · · · · ·The internet was under my network that
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`21· ·connected things.· The web was the emerging
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`22· ·document-browser paradigm that sat on top of the web
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`23· ·that started to make content and documents available to
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`24· ·more customers and consumers who were somewhat unaware
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`25· ·of the internet network.
`
`12
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`
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`·1· · · · · · ·And so we're familiar with the browsers.
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`·2· ·Netscape was a big one, and the emerging World Wide Web
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`·3· ·where individuals and content developers and companies
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`·4· ·could offer more content like documents -- in the form
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`·5· ·of documents of web pages.· And the thing that was
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`·6· ·really exciting there was, all of the sudden someone
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`·7· ·can, through a browser, open a page and get information
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`·8· ·that was, like, immediate and relevant to, like, within
`
`·9· ·minutes, whether it's news or financial information.
`
`10· ·And then that was connected to -- you could click on a
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`11· ·link, and it would take you to another page that had
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`12· ·information.· And you can click on that link, and it
`
`13· ·would take you to another page with information.
`
`14· · · · · · ·And that opened up, like, a library of the
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`15· ·world for people, and we started to get used to the --
`
`16· ·and excited about the potential of having the most
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`17· ·relevant and timely information available to us that was
`
`18· ·also available to a lot of people, not just few sources.
`
`19· ·And "people," I mean individuals, developers, companies,
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`20· ·and all of that.· And so that was massively new, and we
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`21· ·could feel that it would change everything, and we
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`22· ·didn't know exactly how.
`
`23· · · · · · ·That set of capabilities also came with
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`24· ·trade-offs.· And that was -- that while the information
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`25· ·was new and available for a lot of people, it was hard
`
`13
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`·1· ·to organize.· So it went through -- if you want to call
`
`·2· ·them "portals."· Yahoo.· You would go to one place to
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`·3· ·get to all the places.
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`·4· · · · · · ·So because it was too much information to
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`·5· ·organize, you had to go through an organizer.· So you
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`·6· ·didn't have as much access is one, so it took a while to
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`·7· ·get to the places you wanted to go.
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`·8· · · · · · ·And, two, because it was organized on a
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`·9· ·document-by-document model that you click through large
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`10· ·page by large page.· While it had the freshness of
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`11· ·information, it was cumbersome from an application
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`12· ·functionality perspective.
`
`13· · · · · · ·But, again, it was solving for different
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`14· ·needs.· Both worlds.· So those were two very powerful
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`15· ·things that met some needs but had their trade-offs.
`
`16· · · · · · ·And then the third was an evolving computing
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`17· ·landscape where, you know, our desktops -- we could have
`
`18· ·laptops.· They were pretty heavy then, but they still
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`19· ·had big screens, and so you could use the document model
`
`20· ·and large data.· Like, heavy but highly-functional
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`21· ·software applications.
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`22· · · · · · ·But then these phones were coming out who were
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`23· ·also able to -- or any mobile device.· So -- like
`
`24· ·smartphones, small tablets that weren't as powerful,
`
`25· ·from a computing perspective, and didn't have the
`
`14
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`
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`·1· ·resolution of the screen and had a low data connection
`
`·2· ·because it was going through the cellular network that
`
`·3· ·had the benefit of having a tether.· You could -- like
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`·4· ·mobile computing.· You could bring some of your services
`
`·5· ·and products and content while on the go.
`
`·6· · · · · · ·But it -- it -- you couldn't touch these other
`
`·7· ·worlds because you couldn't run, like, large format
`
`·8· ·applications, and you -- in a page-by-page model for
`
`·9· ·content was what -- a thousand times more cumbersome.
`
`10· · · · · · ·And so a whole new alternative world was built
`
`11· ·with new operating systems, new software paradigms, new
`
`12· ·software application offerings like -- and a whole new
`
`13· ·mobile browser structure, which you had to -- so if you
`
`14· ·were a -- if you were a company or anyone offering a
`
`15· ·product or service or content, then you were a customer
`
`16· ·and you wanted that product and service, that
`
`17· ·customer -- you had to create three worlds and go
`
`18· ·through -- the companies would create a, like, software
`
`19· ·application to deliver that and then deal with all the
`
`20· ·benefits -- gain the benefits of that but struggle with
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`21· ·the data freshness.
`
`22· · · · · · ·Then they would create a whole separate
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`23· ·offering, and you -- to, like, deliver media and the
`
`24· ·content they had through the web, page by page.· So they
`
`25· ·would have the fresh content but struggle with any type
`
`15
`
`
`
`·1· ·of application functionality, and then also lost the
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`·2· ·direct contact with the customer because they had to go
`
`·3· ·through these portals.· And then to meet the users as
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`·4· ·they move from one device to another, they had to create
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`·5· ·a whole other infrastructure of software to go on the
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`·6· ·mobile devices and content to go on the mobile devices.
`
`·7· · · · · · ·So from a user's perspective, they got what
`
`·8· ·they needed, but they constantly had to move between
`
`·9· ·these domains, which was cumbersome, and no one saw it
`
`10· ·because no one really followed the user, but you felt
`
`11· ·it.· And from a company perspective, you had to build up
`
`12· ·all these parallel redundant efforts -- different
`
`13· ·development teams, different content teams, or different
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`14· ·organizational teams, which is very expensive and very
`
`15· ·difficult to, like, have an integrative experience from
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`16· ·the writer side and an integrative experience for the
`
`17· ·customer side.
`
`18· · · · · · ·And our solutions -- or new solutions with the
`
`19· ·Dot and the Dot -- the way the Dot was defined gave --
`
`20· ·you know, it gave -- reconfigured how all that happened.
`
`21· ·A relatively elegant -- the orientation that was not
`
`22· ·obvious to any of these worlds.· If you stayed in any of
`
`23· ·these worlds, it would not have been the path you would
`
`24· ·have taken.· Because on the application side, you'd be
`
`25· ·solving for data size.· On the content side, you would
`
`16
`
`
`
`·1· ·be offering for, like, organizing information.· On the
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`·2· ·mobile side, you would be dealing with the limits of all
`
`·3· ·that.
`
`·4· · · · · · ·It was not obvious that those worlds were
`
`·5· ·connected, and the elegant solution would reconfigure
`
`·6· ·all those things.· That would, all of the sudden, allow
`
`·7· ·the provider to provide new offerings that had
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`·8· ·application-like functionality, freshness of data, and
`
`·9· ·ability to move across devices without a lot of divided
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`10· ·worlds.· And for a customer perspective, to have direct
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`11· ·access to their providers, high functionality, immediate
`
`12· ·fresh content, and the ability to move.
`
`13· · · · · · ·This is the world we live in now, and we know
`
`14· ·how beautiful it is, and we know the significance of the
`
`15· ·markets.· It's trillions of dollars that flow through
`
`16· ·these ecosystems now.· But that was all trapped and
`
`17· ·locked in divided worlds.
`
`18· · · · Q.· ·I appreciate that, Mr. Kembel.· Let me try to
`
`19· ·move you back up to a higher level just so I can make
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`20· ·sure we're all on the same page.
`
`21· · · · · · ·You had mentioned that there were three
`
`22· ·general categories of product offerings available before
`
`23· ·DoDots came around, right?
`
`24· · · · · · ·MR. IYER:· Objection to form.· Vague.
`
`25· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I'm not sure I understand your
`
`17
`
`
`
`·1· ·question.
`
`·2· ·BY MR. BALLANCO:
`
`·3· · · · Q.· ·At the beginning of your last response, I
`
`·4· ·believe you had mentioned that there were generally
`
`·5· ·three buckets of prior product offerings that existed
`
`·6· ·before DoDots came around.
`
`·7· · · · · · ·Is that -- is that accurate?
`
`·8· · · · A.· ·"Bucket" is -- "three buckets" is a strange
`
`·9· ·term.· I'm not -- what I said, there -- you could call
`
`10· ·them three market areas.· Three -- three areas in which
`
`11· ·the whole ecosystems of products were available.· Three
`
`12· ·technology worlds.· Three customer base -- not just
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`13· ·three customer bases, massively different customer
`
`14· ·bases.· These are so dimensional and rich.· To try to
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`15· ·simplify it like that is unfair, so I don't quite know
`
`16· ·what you're pointing at.
`
`17· · · · · · ·I would say the world had great products and
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`18· ·services available through those three massively
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`19· ·different ecosystems, which were wonderful.· But because
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`20· ·they were divided and no one recognized the
`
`21· ·interconnected -- that there was a way to offer a
`
`22· ·solution that reconnected people -- people who had
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`23· ·products and services to offer and customers who needed
`
`24· ·them, and then in a -- in a new way, it created
`
`25· ·tremendous barriers to value creation, user experience,
`
`18
`
`
`
`·1· ·development of new offerings because of that division.
`
`·2· · · · · · ·And so I wouldn't oversimplify those into
`
`·3· ·that.· I would recognize the richness of those things
`
`·4· ·and the nonobviousness of the interconnected nature that
`
`·5· ·if you saw it differently -- and this is why no one saw
`
`·6· ·it.· No one saw it differently.· They were all looking
`
`·7· ·through their silos.
`
`·8· · · · · · ·And the way John and I approached the inquiry
`
`·9· ·with our designing practices gave us a different way of
`
`10· ·looking at this, which was user-centered and kind of
`
`11· ·customer experience and offering-centered and a kind of
`
`12· ·technique that allowed us to take different points of
`
`13· ·view.· And all of the sudden, like, we looked at it
`
`14· ·sideways, and we saw something that no one else saw.
`
`15· ·And by reconfiguring some things in a really elegant
`
`16· ·way, it unlocked that whole thing.
`
`17· · · · · · ·And it was -- and that's how I would, like,
`
`18· ·point to it is divided worlds, an elegant solution that
`
`19· ·provided alternative pathways for an incredible range of
`
`20· ·products, technologies, media, content, application
`
`21· ·functionalities, reconnecting people who had to offer it
`
`22· ·to consumers who wanted that.
`
`23· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And I don't mean to oversimplify
`
`24· ·things.· I just want to use a term that we can all agree
`
`25· ·on to describe these three -- should we call them
`
`19
`
`
`
`·1· ·"market areas"?· Is that a term you're comfortable with?
`
`·2· · · · A.· ·From a business perspective, you can say
`
`·3· ·"market."· From a technology perspective, you would say
`
`·4· ·"technology."· From a product perspective, you would say
`
`·5· ·"product."
`
`·6· · · · · · ·So just seeking one term, I think, is maybe
`
`·7· ·not actually representative of the reality of the
`
`·8· ·situation. So I would say I would use all those terms.
`
`·9· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Well, let's talk about it from a
`
`10· ·business perspective.
`
`11· · · · A.· ·Great.
`
`12· · · · Q.· ·If we're going to talk about it from a
`
`13· ·business perspective, we'll use the term "three market
`
`14· ·areas."
`
`15· · · · · · ·Is that an okay term to use for the business
`
`16· ·side?
`
`17· · · · A.· ·That sounds great.· Yeah.
`
`18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· So the three market areas that you were
`
`19· ·described were, first, the client software paradigm,
`
`20· ·second, the emerging web, and, third, the emerging
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`21· ·mobile device market; fair?
`
`22· · · · A.· ·That feels fair.· And I love the word "market"
`
`23· ·from a business perspective and the word "paradigm" from
`
`24· ·a kind of world view that holds more dimensionality.
`
`25· · · · · · ·So I -- I hear you hearing what I'm saying.
`
`20
`
`
`
`·1· · · · Q.· ·I'm trying.
`
`·2· · · · A.· ·Yeah.
`
`·3· · · · Q.· ·Let's go back, then, first and dig a little
`
`·4· ·deeper into the client software market.· Okay?
`
`·5· · · · · · ·How did DoDots' solution improve upon the
`
`·6· ·existing client software market?
`
`·7· · · · · · ·MR. IYER:· Objection to form.· Vague.
`
`·8· · · · · · ·You can answer.
`
`·9· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Well, can you -- can you give me
`
`10· ·a more -- where I -- I'm struggling to understand what
`
`11· ·you're pointing -- because I don't think we were trying
`
`12· ·to solve an application soft- -- we were -- we were
`
`13· ·opening a new product category, which had implications,
`
`14· ·that brought the benefits of application software, like
`
`15· ·functionality, to a world that didn't exist.· We weren't
`
`16· ·trying to, like, stay in the world of application
`
`17· ·software.
`
`18· ·BY MR. BALLANCO:
`
`19· · · · Q.· ·And had the market recognized a need to move
`
`20· ·away from the client software market to a new market
`
`21· ·that you opened up?
`
`22· · · · A.· ·The -- I'll say two things:· Those folks in
`
`23· ·the application software market were continue -- I don't
`
`24· ·think felt the obviousness of that.· They were -- from
`
`25· ·the limits of it, they were trying to continue to offer
`
`21
`
`
`
`·1· ·great application functionality and mitigate some of the
`
`·2· ·challenges around data file size, alternatives to
`
`·3· ·downloading softwares, staying current, how to keep the
`
`·4· ·information that those software packages were dealing
`
`·5· ·with current.· I don't think they recognized that there
`
`·6· ·was a way to solve that from a completely different
`
`·7· ·angle.
`
`·8· · · · · · ·When we offered a whole new product category,
`
`·9· ·they're like -- like breath of fresh air.· They're like,
`
`10· ·"Thank goodness.· We can offer the richness of
`
`11· ·functionality that our customers need that we can offer
`
`12· ·through application software and also new functionality
`
`13· ·and" -- "with relevant, timely information that they
`
`14· ·also need with a kind of lightweight nature that allows
`
`15· ·us to keep things" -- "the whole thing current from a
`
`16· ·software side, a content side, a functionality side."
`
`17· · · · · · ·So when the -- when the new-to-the-market and
`
`18· ·not obvious solution -- when we came out with the Dots
`
`19· ·and the Dot information as an alternative architecture
`
`20· ·that was across all three paradigms, reconnected all
`
`21· ·three paradigms, you could feel the immediate "yes" to
`
`22· ·that.· This is the thing that's, I think, wonderful
`
`23· ·about new inventions is they're not obvious until they
`
`24· ·came out, and then they're obvious.· And so it was not
`
`25· ·obvious, not obvious, not obvious.· We put it out there,
`
`22
`
`
`
`·1· ·and they're like "There it is."
`
`·2· · · · · · ·And we saw that from the companies, whether
`
`·3· ·they're ABC News or Merriam Webster and all the other
`
`·4· ·companies that very quickly said yes and purchased,
`
`·5· ·like -- like, spent their money to pay for the
`
`·6· ·participation to use this new technology and the way
`
`·7· ·they talked about it.· We saw that first from the
`
`·8· ·investment and finance community who are very familiar
`
`·9· ·with the emerging tech landscape across all those
`
`10· ·paradigms and investing in all those paradigms that they
`
`11· ·saw how unique and new this was and unexpected, and how
`
`12· ·it unlocked latent value that is in the market wanting
`
`13· ·to happen but had no invention pathway to go through.
`
`14· · · · · · ·The moment this came out, the nature of the
`
`15· ·way the Dots were built and the nature of the way the
`
`16· ·Dot definitions were, it unlocked all the latent value.
`
`17· ·And so they saw that, given their expertise as investors
`
`18· ·in understanding the landscape from a market,
`
`19· ·technology, entrepreneur, business, business product
`
`20· ·offering, so they choose to invest in our start-up,
`
`21· ·validating that it was a new thing that was not out
`
`22· ·there.· If we didn't have a new thing, they wouldn't
`
`23· ·have invested in it.· If we didn't have a new thing that
`
`24· ·unlocked value that was stuck in the market, the
`
`25· ·companies wouldn't have paid for it.
`
`23
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · ·And -- and then the rapid uptick of people --
`
`·2· ·of saying, "Yes, I can finally use this," the users that
`
`·3· ·were also bringing this into their lives and started to
`
`·4· ·do the things they needed to do in the way they did as
`
`·5· ·opposed to in this compartmentalized, multi-world way.
`
`·6· · · · · · ·And then maybe two more.· The way the
`
`·7· ·developers jumped on this and opened all new markets
`
`·8· ·about new offerings.· And then even, like, the
`
`·9· ·conferences and the analysts who were pointing to its
`
`10· ·success.
`
`11· · · · · · ·So those, to me, are the things that suggest
`
`12· ·that it unlocked that great value.
`
`13· · · · Q.· ·And was -- strike that.
`
`14· · · · · · ·The folks working in the client software
`
`15· ·market, in your view, hadn't appreciated that there
`
`16· ·might be a solution to the problems they were trying to
`
`17· ·address within their market by a whole new product
`
`18· ·offering?
`
`19· · · · · · ·MR. IYER:· Objection to form.· Vague.
`
`20· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· What do you mean by don't
`
`21· ·appreciate?· Help me understand your question.
`
`22· ·BY MR. BALLANCO:
`
`23· · · · Q.· ·Sure.
`
`24· · · · · · ·So there were companies and individuals
`
`25· ·working in the client software market and trying to
`
`24
`
`
`
`·1· ·improve their offerings in that market, right?
`
`·2· · · · A.· ·That would be true for most markets.· But they
`
`·3· ·didn't see -- they didn't see an alternative.· They saw
`
`·4· ·the problems from their lens.
`
`·5· · · · · · ·So they saw the problems of data file size, so
`
`·6· ·they were coming up with new ways to reduce or
`
`·7· ·distribute data file size.· They saw problems of
`
`·8· ·application data current -- freshness.· Like how current
`
`·9· ·the data was.· Were trying to solve it that way.· They
`
`10· ·didn't recognize that there was a -- an alternative,
`
`11· ·elegant solution that -- that -- that brought, like --
`
`12· ·it sat on the internet, the underlying network, in a
`
`13· ·different way that allowed for the functionality that
`
`14· ·was held over in the -- that we could see in the web
`
`15· ·space but couldn't unlock.· It could bring some of --
`
`16· ·and could see in the space but couldn't unlock from this
`
`17· ·side, and could see in the mobile market but couldn't
`
`18· ·unlock in this space.· It was not obvious.
`
`19· · · · · · ·They couldn't see -- it wasn't like they
`
`20· ·didn't appreciate it.· They were efforting, like, to try
`
`21· ·to solve the problems from the vantage point from where
`
`22· ·they're at.· And those are all legitimate solutions.
`
`23· ·There are other things out there that were working on
`
`24· ·these -- these -- these small parts of the puzzle.
`
`25· · · · · · ·What was -- I don't think it's a lack of
`
`25
`
`
`
`·1· ·appreciation, in your language.· It's just they had
`
`·2· ·no -- they couldn't see that there was an alternative
`
`·3· ·because there wasn't.· There was not an alternative that
`
`·4· ·provided a third way that -- that solved for, like,
`
`·5· ·eight different problems at once and then reconnected --
`
`·6· ·reconnected them to their customers.· The moment they
`
`·7· ·saw it, they were like, "Oh, yeah."
`
`·8· · · · · · ·And that's what you see, I think, in my
`
`·9· ·declaration.· I pointed to case after case after case if
`
`10· ·you want to reference that or we can talk about it.· We
`
`11· ·can get very specific examples of the companies who
`
`12· ·had -- who had application software offerings and web
`
`13· ·offerings and mobile offerings.· The moment they saw a
`
`14· ·third way that unlocked kind of functionality that was
`
`15· ·available in these separate worlds in a third world,
`
`16· ·then they appreciated the new offering.· But it
`
`17· ·wasn't -- there was no alternative before.
`
`18· · · · Q.· ·You mentioned that your solution solved eight
`
`19· ·different problems at once.
`
`20· · · · · · ·What were those problems?
`
`21· · · · A.· ·So the number eight was a -- I just threw that
`
`22· ·out to suggest that there were a number of problems, and
`
`23· ·the -- most of the markets and those different paradigms
`
`24· ·were focused on point problems and point solutions.· And
`
`25· ·some of the big shifts in markets and novel
`
`26
`
`
`
`·1· ·inventions -- kind of because they take a different
`
`·2· ·angle, unlock a constellation of needs that weren't
`
`·3· ·recognized to be connected, and solve a constellation of
`
`·4· ·problem
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