· · · ·UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`· · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`____________________________________________________________
`
`· · · · · · ·SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD,
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner,
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·v.
`
`· · · · · · DODOTS LICENSING SOLUTIONS LLC,
`
`· · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.
`____________________________________________________________
`
`· · · Case IPR2023-00621 (US Patent No. 8,020,083)
`
`· · · Case IPR2023-00701 (US Patent No. 8,510,407)
`
`· · · Case IPR2023-00756 (US Patent No. 9,369,545)
`____________________________________________________________
`
`· · · · · · ·VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · JOHN KEMBEL
`
`· · · · · · · · · · ·MAY 16, 2024
`
`· · · ·Page 1 - 79· · · · ·9:21 a.m. - 11:14 a.m.
`
`REPORTED BY:
`Tamara L. Houston
`CA CSR No. 7244, RPR, CCRR No. 140
`Job Number 24-137040
`BILLING FR Ref. 39843-0148IP1
`· · · · · · · · 39843-0149IP1
`· · · · · · · · 39843-0150IP1
`
`1
`
`Exhibit 1031
`Samsung v. DoDots
`IPR2023-00701
`
`
`
`· · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`____________________________________________________________
`
`· · · · · · ·SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD,
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · Petitioner,
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·v.
`
`· · · · · · DODOTS LICENSING SOLUTIONS LLC,
`
`· · · · · · · · · · ·Patent Owner.
`____________________________________________________________
`
`· · · Case IPR2023-00621 (US Patent No. 8,020,083)
`
`· · · Case IPR2023-00701 (US Patent No. 8,510,407)
`
`· · · Case IPR2023-00756 (US Patent No. 9,369,545)
`____________________________________________________________
`
`· · · · · · ·VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · JOHN KEMBEL
`
`· · · · · · · · · · ·MAY 16, 2024
`
`· · · ·Page 1 - 79· · · · ·9:21 a.m. - 11:14 a.m.
`
`REPORTED BY:
`Tamara L. Houston
`CA CSR No. 7244, RPR, CCRR No. 140
`Job Number 24-137040
`BILLING FR Ref. 39843-0148IP1
`· · · · · · · · 39843-0149IP1
`· · · · · · · · 39843-0150IP1
`
`1
`
`Exhibit 1031
`Samsung v. DoDots
`IPR2023-00701
`
`
`
`·1
`
`·2
`
`·3
`
`·4· · · · ·REMOTE VIDEOCONFERENCE DEPOSITION OF JOHN KEMBEL,
`
`·5· ·taken on behalf of the Petitioner, commencing from
`
`·6· ·9:21 a.m. to 11:14 a.m., Thursday, May 16, 2024, before
`
`·7· ·Tamara L. Houston, CSR No. 7244, CCRR, RPR.
`
`·8
`
`·9
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`10
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`11
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`12
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`13
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`14
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`15
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`16
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`18
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`25
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`2
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`·1· ·APPEARANCE OF COUNSEL:
`
`·2
`
`·3· · · · On behalf of the Petitioner:
`
`·4· · · · · · ·FISH & RICHARDSON P.C.
`· · · · · · · ·BY:· MICHAEL BALLANCO, ESQ.
`·5· · · · · · · · · CHRISTOPHER VON GUNTEN, ESQ.
`· · · · · · · ·1000 Maine Avenue SW
`·6· · · · · · ·Suite 1000
`· · · · · · · ·Washington, California 20024
`·7· · · · · · ·(202) 783-5070
`· · · · · · · ·ballanco@fr.com
`·8· · · · · · ·vongunten@fr.com
`
`·9
`· · · · · On behalf of the Patent Owner and Witness:
`10
`· · · · · · · ·DAIGNAULT IYER LLP
`11· · · · · · ·BY:· CHANDRAN B. IYER, ESQ.
`· · · · · · · ·8618 Westwood Center Drive
`12· · · · · · ·Suite 150
`· · · · · · · ·Vienna, Virginia 22182
`13· · · · · · ·(917) 838-9795
`· · · · · · · ·cbiyer@daignaultiyer.com
`14
`
`15· · · · On behalf of Apple, Inc.
`
`16· · · · · · ·ERISE IP
`· · · · · · · ·BY:· CHRISTINA CANINO, ESQ.
`17· · · · · · · · · PAUL HART, ESQ.
`· · · · · · · ·717 17th Street
`18· · · · · · ·Suite 1400
`· · · · · · · ·Denver, Colorado 80202
`19· · · · · · ·(913) 777-5600
`· · · · · · · ·christina.canino@eriseip.com
`20· · · · · · ·paul.hart@eriseip.com
`
`21
`· · ·Also Present:· Petitioner, Jyun Jin In
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`3
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`
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·INDEX TO EXAMINATION
`
`·2· · · · · · · · · WITNESS: JOHN KEMBEL
`
`·3· ·EXAMINATIONS· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
`
`·4· ·Mr. Ballanco:....................................· · 5
`
`·5
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`·6
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`·7· · · · · · QUESTIONS INSTRUCTED NOT TO ANSWER
`
`·8· · · · · · · · · · · Page· · ·Line
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·NONE
`
`10
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`11
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`12· · · · · · · · · · INDEX TO EXHIBITS
`
`13· ·EXHIBIT· · · · · · · DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
`
`14· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·NONE
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`15
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`16
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`20
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`21
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`22
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`23
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`24
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`25
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`4
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`·1· · · · · · ·THURSDAY, MAY 16, 2024, 9:21 a.m.
`
`·2· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·--o0o--
`
`·3· · · · · · · · All counsel present stipulate
`
`·4· · · · · ·that the witness shall be sworn remotely
`
`·5· · · · · · · · · · by the court reporter
`
`·6· · · · · · · · · · · · · · * * *
`
`·7· · · · · · · · · ·Whereupon, JOHN KEMBEL, having been
`
`·8· · · · · · · · · · called as a witness was duly sworn
`
`·9· · · · · · · · · · to tell the truth, the whole truth,
`
`10· · · · · · · · · · and nothing but the truth testified
`
`11· · · · · · · · · · as follows:
`
`12· · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION BY MR. BALLANCO:
`
`13· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· For the record, I will introduce
`
`14· ·myself.· I am Michael Ballanco with the law firm Fish &
`
`15· ·Richardson representing the Samsung Petitioners in these
`
`16· ·proceedings, which I will read the proceeding numbers
`
`17· ·into the record.· We do not have a videographer.· They
`
`18· ·are IPR2023-00621, the next one is IPR2023-00701, and
`
`19· ·the third is IPR2023-00756.
`
`20· · · · · · ·Joining me today are my colleagues,
`
`21· ·Hyun Jin In and Chris von Gunten, also with the Fish &
`
`22· ·Richardson law firm.
`
`23· · · · · · ·MR. IYER:· This is Chandran Iyer for
`
`24· ·Mr. George Kembel.
`
`25· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· John.
`
`5
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · ·MR. IYER:· Sorry, John Kembel.
`
`·2· · · · · · ·MS. CANINO:· This is Christina Canino and
`
`·3· ·Paul Hart with Erise IP on behalf of Apple, Inc.
`
`·4· ·BY MR. BALLANCO:
`
`·5· · · · Q.· ·Mr. Kembel, would you please state your full
`
`·6· ·name for the record.
`
`·7· · · · A.· ·Sure.· John Albert Kembel.
`
`·8· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And, Mr. Kembel, where are you joining
`
`·9· ·the deposition from today?
`
`10· · · · A.· ·I am in beautiful downtown Boulder, Colorado.
`
`11· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And we -- I believe I heard you say
`
`12· ·before we got on the record that this is your first
`
`13· ·deposition.· Is that true?
`
`14· · · · A.· ·That's correct.
`
`15· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Let me go over a few ground rules just
`
`16· ·so that things go smoothly today and that we don't have
`
`17· ·any unnecessary issues.· I -- you understand you're here
`
`18· ·today under oath.· Right?
`
`19· · · · A.· ·Yes.· You broke up there a little bit, but I
`
`20· ·understand I'm here under oath.
`
`21· · · · Q.· ·And would you --
`
`22· · · · · · ·(Audio issues; Mr. Ballanco rejoins Zoom.)
`
`23· ·BY MR. BALLANCO:
`
`24· · · · Q.· ·So, Mr. Kembel, question I was about to ask
`
`25· ·you is:· Do you understand that, with you being under
`
`6
`
`
`
`·1· ·oath, the testimony you give today is the same as if you
`
`·2· ·were in court before a judge or a jury?
`
`·3· · · · A.· ·I understand that, yes.
`
`·4· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Especially because we're virtual and
`
`·5· ·because I've had some technology issues, I'd ask that,
`
`·6· ·before you start an answer to my question, you wait
`
`·7· ·until I've finished my -- my question, and I will do the
`
`·8· ·same for you and wait to ask my next question until you
`
`·9· ·finish your answer.
`
`10· · · · · · ·Is that fair?
`
`11· · · · A.· ·That's fair.
`
`12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you have any medical issue or other
`
`13· ·issue that prevents you from giving full, accurate, and
`
`14· ·complete testimony today?
`
`15· · · · A.· ·No, not that I can think of.
`
`16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· If that changes at any point during the
`
`17· ·deposition, just let me know, and we'll stop.· Okay?
`
`18· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· No worries.
`
`19· · · · Q.· ·The other thing is that we have a court
`
`20· ·reporter here with us today who is transcribing
`
`21· ·everything that we talk about, and for her benefit, I'd
`
`22· ·ask that you please give audio "yeses" or "noes" or
`
`23· ·other responses to my questions rather than nonverbal.
`
`24· · · · · · ·Fair?
`
`25· · · · A.· ·Fair.
`
`7
`
`
`
`·1· · · · Q.· ·We'll take breaks about every hour, but if you
`
`·2· ·need one sooner than that, just ask me, and I'll let you
`
`·3· ·do that.· Okay?
`
`·4· · · · A.· ·Yep.
`
`·5· · · · Q.· ·The only thing I'll say with that, if there's
`
`·6· ·a question pending, I'll ask you to answer the question
`
`·7· ·before we take a break.· Okay?
`
`·8· · · · A.· ·Understood.
`
`·9· · · · Q.· ·And we also discussed this a little bit off
`
`10· ·the record, but I'll just state it on the record.
`
`11· · · · · · ·There's going to be exhibits that we're using
`
`12· ·today.· My plan is to put them in the Zoom chat, have
`
`13· ·you navigate them on your computer, but if that presents
`
`14· ·an issue, you're having any trouble with the exhibits,
`
`15· ·just let me know, and we'll address that.
`
`16· · · · · · ·Is that okay?
`
`17· · · · A.· ·That's okay.
`
`18· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Mr. Kembel, I want to start by actually
`
`19· ·pulling up an exhibit, so it's going to be -- and I
`
`20· ·believe you're familiar with.· Let me put it into the
`
`21· ·chat.
`
`22· · · · · · ·Let me know when you're able to access that
`
`23· ·document that I've put into the chat.
`
`24· · · · A.· ·Downloading.
`
`25· · · · · · ·Yeah, it's the patent.· Let me resize it.
`
`8
`
`
`
`·1· · · · Q.· ·Sure.· Just let me know when you're ready.
`
`·2· · · · A.· ·I'm ready.
`
`·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And can you identify what document this
`
`·4· ·is that I've put into the chat?
`
`·5· · · · A.· ·U.S. patent ending in '083.
`
`·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you understand that the '083 patent
`
`·7· ·is one of the patents that's at issue in the proceedings
`
`·8· ·that I read into the record earlier?
`
`·9· · · · A.· ·I understand that, yes.
`
`10· · · · Q.· ·And you submitted a declaration in the '083
`
`11· ·IPR proceeding.
`
`12· · · · · · ·Is that fair?
`
`13· · · · A.· ·I submitted a declaration, yes.
`
`14· · · · Q.· ·And, in fact, I believe you submitted a
`
`15· ·declaration in actually all three of the proceedings
`
`16· ·that we're here about today, right?
`
`17· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· There are three declarations, and they
`
`18· ·pretty much have the same content.· They just wrapped
`
`19· ·with, I think, three patents.· I don't remember all of
`
`20· ·the numbers, but I do remember '083 as one of the
`
`21· ·numbers.
`
`22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Do you remember the '545 as one of the
`
`23· ·other patents?
`
`24· · · · A.· ·Rings a bell.
`
`25· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And --
`
`9
`
`
`
`·1· · · · A.· ·An accurate memory, '083, '545, and something
`
`·2· ·with maybe a 7.· But, yeah, I remember those.
`
`·3· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· We can pull those up later, but let's
`
`·4· ·focus on the '083 for now.· Okay?
`
`·5· · · · A.· ·Sure.
`
`·6· · · · Q.· ·You're a named inventor on this patent, right?
`
`·7· · · · A.· ·Yes, and I can see my name there.
`
`·8· · · · Q.· ·And you understand that this patent relates to
`
`·9· ·an application that it claims priority to filed in April
`
`10· ·of 2000; is that right?
`
`11· · · · · · ·MR. IYER:· Objection to form.
`
`12· · · · · · ·You can answer.
`
`13· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yeah, it's hard for me to trace
`
`14· ·all of the file patent dates.· That's something more for
`
`15· ·our patent lawyers on the dates and how the references
`
`16· ·work.· I mean, I've reviewed this application, and I was
`
`17· ·part of the provisionals, but I don't know exactly the
`
`18· ·dates of the other patents on the whole patent tree.
`
`19· ·BY MR. BALLANCO:
`
`20· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· If I represent to you that this patent
`
`21· ·claims priority to an April 2000 patent application,
`
`22· ·does that seem like the timeframe that you were filing
`
`23· ·or that you were working on this invention?
`
`24· · · · A.· ·We filed the provisional patents, I believe --
`
`25· ·is that listed here?
`
`10
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`
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`·1· · · · · · ·COURT REPORTER:· Mr. Iyre, did you have an
`
`·2· ·objection?
`
`·3· · · · · · ·MR. IYRE:· Not to this question.
`
`·4· · · · · · ·COURT REPORTER:· Okay.· Your screen lit up. I
`
`·5· ·apologize.
`
`·6· · · · · · ·Go ahead, Mr. Kembel.
`
`·7· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· This was 25 years ago.· What I
`
`·8· ·remember is I filed the provisional application in --
`
`·9· ·in -- I think that was '99, but I can go back and look
`
`10· ·at the dates.
`
`11· · · · · · ·A year later, we converted that to -- I don't
`
`12· ·know the exact language here.· You'd have to talk to a
`
`13· ·patent lawyer.· But I worked with a patent lawyer to
`
`14· ·convert it to some sort of formal application.
`
`15· · · · · · ·After that, I -- it's hard for me to trace how
`
`16· ·the patents got split and divided.· That's something
`
`17· ·that we relied on counsel for.
`
`18· ·BY MR. BALLANCO:
`
`19· · · · Q.· ·Understood.
`
`20· · · · · · ·Fair to say that the provisionals were in the
`
`21· ·1999 timeframe and then the applications that were
`
`22· ·converted were in the spring of 2000 timeframe?
`
`23· · · · A.· ·Yeah.· That -- the year later, I remember
`
`24· ·that -- that year clock that started.· I remember that.
`
`25· ·Mm-hmm.· So that makes sense to me.
`
`11
`
`
`
`·1· · · · Q.· ·You can -- you could put that document to the
`
`·2· ·side for now.· I imagine we'll revisit it, but the
`
`·3· ·questions I'm about to ask you, I don't think you'll
`
`·4· ·need the patent for.
`
`·5· · · · A.· ·Okay.· I'm just going to minimize it so I have
`
`·6· ·it later.· Yeah.
`
`·7· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· What were the major pieces of the
`
`·8· ·DoDots product?· The major parts of the invention?
`
`·9· · · · · · ·MR. IYER:· Objection to form.· Vague.
`
`10· · · · · · ·You can answer.
`
`11· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Goodness, Mike, there's a lot
`
`12· ·there.· Is there a specific way you'd like me to answer
`
`13· ·that question or just...
`
`14· ·BY MR. BALLANCO:
`
`15· · · · Q.· ·As the -- as the co-founder of DoDots and --
`
`16· · · · · · ·(Audio disruption; Reporter requests
`
`17· · · · · · ·clarification.)
`
`18· ·BY MR. BALLANCO:
`
`19· · · · Q.· ·Let me just ask this:· Have I -- has the audio
`
`20· ·caught up?
`
`21· · · · A.· ·Yes.
`
`22· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Let me start the question over.
`
`23· · · · · · ·In your role as co-founder of DoDots and named
`
`24· ·inventor on these patents, I'd just ask for you to
`
`25· ·describe for me the major components that you saw here
`
`12
`
`
`
`·1· ·to your --
`
`·2· · · · · · ·MR. IYER:· I'm going to object to the form as
`
`·3· ·vague.
`
`·4· · · · · · ·You can answer.
`
`·5· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I think the main -- (audio
`
`·6· ·distortion) -- at that is --
`
`·7· · · · · · ·(Audio disruption; Reporter requests
`
`·8· · · · · · ·clarification.)
`
`·9· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Can you hear me, Mike?· Last
`
`10· ·thing I heard you -- okay.· So something changed.· Maybe
`
`11· ·we just stand very still.
`
`12· · · · · · ·I think maybe to highlight sort of the key
`
`13· ·components and, you know, the little bits of magic that
`
`14· ·make the DoDots technology work, you really had to dial
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`15· ·back the clock to what it was like in the late '90s
`
`16· ·because there's so many things we take for granted now
`
`17· ·in terms of the way apps and the app ecosystem in the
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`18· ·app store work.
`
`19· · · · · · ·But back then, you had your computers, and you
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`20· ·had this burgeoning new Internet really flourishing
`
`21· ·because of the rise of the web, right?· And to do
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`22· ·something on computer, you needed a native-installed
`
`23· ·application, and to do something on the web, that -- the
`
`24· ·web rose, as you all know, if you were there, as, you
`
`25· ·know, really with a document paradigm.
`
`13
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`
`
`·1· · · · · · ·And so websites were, you know, hypertext
`
`·2· ·documents, page by page, and really had a great
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`·3· ·flourishing and blossoming around -- certainly on
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`·4· ·research documents, I think, is where it started.
`
`·5· · · · · · ·And then the company started making websites,
`
`·6· ·but they were trapped in a page-by-page document model
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`·7· ·which was -- which was pretty okay for anything that was
`
`·8· ·information based or document based.
`
`·9· · · · · · ·But for anything that wanted to be a little
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`10· ·more interactive, more application-like or to meet the
`
`11· ·needs of other companies that weren't maybe necessarily
`
`12· ·information companies or research companies or document
`
`13· ·companies, the web -- and the web page paradigm
`
`14· ·presented a lot of challenges in terms of that regard.
`
`15· · · · · · ·And goodness, it was -- what?· Late '98, '99,
`
`16· ·my brother and I were just finishing design school and
`
`17· ·were trained in sort of design and innovation processes
`
`18· ·and methodologies.· We started our own little design
`
`19· ·consulting firm with the intent of inventing new
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`20· ·technologies and products.· That was just kind of what
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`21· ·we were trained in.· We ran these little IP hours, what
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`22· ·we call "happy hours," but IP hours.· You kind of get
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`23· ·the joke there.
`
`24· · · · · · ·Every week, we were just brainstorming new
`
`25· ·ways of doing interesting things.· We were exploring all
`
`14
`
`
`
`·1· ·kinds of different product categories, and of course we
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`·2· ·were exploring --
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`·3· · · · · · ·(Reporter admonishment.)
`
`·4· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· -- ways of, you know, inventing
`
`·5· ·new products and technologies.· You can think of it as a
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`·6· ·happy hour, but we called it an IP hour like
`
`·7· ·intellectual property hour.· IP hour.
`
`·8· · · · · · ·And every week, we would just sit around -- we
`
`·9· ·had a tiny office.· We had glass windows like here, and
`
`10· ·we'd get out our whiteboard markers, and we would just
`
`11· ·brainstorm things.· We explored a lot of different
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`12· ·product categories, and obviously one the categories
`
`13· ·that kept coming up was what might be possible on the
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`14· ·web.
`
`15· · · · · · ·And, you know, I'd love to maybe talk to you,
`
`16· ·if it makes sense, about how we came up with the
`
`17· ·nonobvious perspective of what we came up with because
`
`18· ·our rigorous innovation process as well as something we
`
`19· ·were exploring scientifically around systems making
`
`20· ·emergent --
`
`21· · · · · · ·(Reporter admonishment.)
`
`22· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Oh, sorry.· Thank you.· Maybe
`
`23· ·you can wave your hand, and I'll see it, and I'll
`
`24· ·remember --
`
`25· · · · · · ·(Discussion off of the record.)
`
`15
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Because we used both our design
`
`·2· ·process, our rigorous innovation process -- you know,
`
`·3· ·most people believe innovation comes from luck or
`
`·4· ·genius.· That proverbial ah-ha moment or you have to be
`
`·5· ·brilliant to do it.
`
`·6· · · · · · ·If you work in the design field or the
`
`·7· ·innovation field, you learn that you can use a rigorous
`
`·8· ·methodology, a rigorous design process, find nonobvious
`
`·9· ·solutions to things that people wouldn't come up with.
`
`10· ·And so we used both a rigorous design process in all of
`
`11· ·our work as well as we were curious about systems and
`
`12· ·emergent behavior.
`
`13· · · · · · ·Think schools of fish, colonies of ants,
`
`14· ·flocks of birds.· We were holding those two things at
`
`15· ·the same time in our minds and exploring what might be
`
`16· ·possible on the web.
`
`17· · · · · · ·And so we asked a very simple question:· If --
`
`18· ·what if we were to break out of the browser and break
`
`19· ·web pages up into smaller pieces like get flocks of
`
`20· ·birds, schools of fish, smaller pieces because when you
`
`21· ·break things into smaller pieces, unexpected things
`
`22· ·emerge, emergent behavior.· And so that's the question
`
`23· ·we asked.
`
`24· · · · · · ·And right then, we realized so many things
`
`25· ·were possible that -- well, first, the web being trapped
`
`16
`
`
`
`·1· ·in pages was a problem.· As we got into it, we realized
`
`·2· ·lots of people recognized the limitations of the
`
`·3· ·browser.· You know, users could only navigate the web
`
`·4· ·one page at a time.
`
`·5· · · · · · ·After going to -- navigating the browser to a
`
`·6· ·website and navigating the website back and forth with
`
`·7· ·arrows, companies were trapped in representing their
`
`·8· ·products, their services, and their brand in page format
`
`·9· ·and within a browser window, which they didn't control
`
`10· ·the branding of or the user experience of.· That was
`
`11· ·controlled by the browser companies.
`
`12· · · · · · ·At the time, I think that was -- what?· Mosaic
`
`13· ·and maybe Internet Explorer.· And then developers, these
`
`14· ·new web developers were trapped in their imagination.
`
`15· ·Their creativity was trapped in a page format, not very
`
`16· ·interactive, not very application-like.
`
`17· · · · · · ·And so by coming up with the idea of breaking
`
`18· ·out of the browser paradigm, out of the page-by-page
`
`19· ·paradigm, and breaking these things into smaller pieces,
`
`20· ·we realized that there was a potential world between
`
`21· ·native software applications that were -- you know,
`
`22· ·could be branded, could be tailored, could be directly,
`
`23· ·you know, installed on a computer for a user, but were
`
`24· ·hard to develop, required software developers, required
`
`25· ·updates.· Things didn't auto-update back then.· And the
`
`17
`
`
`
`·1· ·flexibility of the web, but without being trapped in a
`
`·2· ·browser.
`
`·3· · · · · · ·We imagined the Dot, right?· We would now call
`
`·4· ·that an app, but we called it a Dot, because the word
`
`·5· ·did not exist for an Internet-powered or web-powered
`
`·6· ·application back then.
`
`·7· · · · · · ·And what made a Dot work were -- it's a couple
`
`·8· ·of magic ah-ha moments.· One is a Dot had to be fully
`
`·9· ·configurable in its frame.· And you'd have, you know,
`
`10· ·application controls that made it feel more like an
`
`11· ·application than like a monolithic web page.· And then
`
`12· ·it had the ability to render content or interactive
`
`13· ·content from the web.
`
`14· · · · · · ·With those properties, you could have
`
`15· ·something that had all of the flexible characteristics
`
`16· ·of the web but behaved more like, quote/unquote, "apps."
`
`17· ·And that required something special to make the Dot work
`
`18· ·as you needed to be able to define the Dot or make a
`
`19· ·template for the Dot.· We call that a Dot template or a
`
`20· ·Dot definition.
`
`21· · · · · · ·And the Dot definition just described the NIM,
`
`22· ·right?· The NIM's characteristics.· The frame, which I
`
`23· ·think it was the window, the controls, you know, what --
`
`24· ·where it gets the content, the view, and didn't require
`
`25· ·any code, executable code, which means a web developer
`
`18
`
`
`
`·1· ·could do it, not a software developer.· Huge difference.
`
`·2· ·Unleashed a whole new community of Dot developers.
`
`·3· · · · · · ·And because it was fully configurable, fully
`
`·4· ·branded, and could be configured, that meant a couple of
`
`·5· ·things:· Companies that struggled to reach end users
`
`·6· ·directly before because their reach to customers was
`
`·7· ·mediated by a browser and limited by websites page by
`
`·8· ·page, they could directly get a Dot to an end user
`
`·9· ·because you could collect them rather than download
`
`10· ·them.
`
`11· · · · · · ·Web developers could unlock their imagination
`
`12· ·or do things outside the construct and the limitations
`
`13· ·of the page, and end users could control their, you
`
`14· ·know, web application experience and not be limited by a
`
`15· ·browser that takes over their whole page.
`
`16· · · · · · ·And so we could go into this, but you could
`
`17· ·collect Dots, you could share Dots, you could organize
`
`18· ·them into packs based on your different work products,
`
`19· ·but the gist and the magic of the invention really comes
`
`20· ·down to the concept of a Dot, the Dot definition, and
`
`21· ·the server infrastructure that enabled those to be
`
`22· ·defined, collected, developed, and distributed.
`
`23· ·BY MR. BALLANCO:
`
`24· · · · Q.· ·So, Mr. Kembel, you -- let me just ask a
`
`25· ·couple setup questions.
`
`19
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · ·Your company launched the Dot -- right -- as a
`
`·2· ·product?
`
`·3· · · · A.· ·We launched a bunch of things.· The concept of
`
`·4· ·Dots was one of the things in our Dot technology and our
`
`·5· ·Dot infrastructure.
`
`·6· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you said there was a bunch of
`
`·7· ·things, so that was part of a bundle of technology that
`
`·8· ·you all launched; is that fair?
`
`·9· · · · A.· ·I think of it as a Dot -- Dot technology
`
`10· ·platform, a Dot infrastructure.· I think the language
`
`11· ·that we used, happy to -- you know, I know the exhibits
`
`12· ·show the diagrams, the way the Dot servers worked, the
`
`13· ·developer ecosystem, and those developer tools worked.
`
`14· · · · · · ·What it means to Dot-enable a computer so you
`
`15· ·can even collect Dots, the Dot templates, the
`
`16· ·definitions for how Dot templates are defined, those
`
`17· ·were defined and developed.· We made some, but largely
`
`18· ·by our customers and by our developer ecosystem, so they
`
`19· ·are the ones who made the Dots and distributed the Dots,
`
`20· ·and we were just a platform that enabled that.
`
`21· · · · · · ·And then, you know, we can get as technical as
`
`22· ·you want.· The Dots also had a Dot messaging system, and
`
`23· ·that enabled Dots to behave more like applications,
`
`24· ·application interactive behavior rather than pages.
`
`25· · · · · · ·So, you know, I draw a soft circle around all
`
`20
`
`
`
`·1· ·the things we did.· We did a lot at DoDots.· And so it's
`
`·2· ·hard to say it's just the Dots or just the server.· All
`
`·3· ·of those things based on the concept of a Dot and a Dot
`
`·4· ·definition is what made our ecosystem of technologies
`
`·5· ·work.
`
`·6· · · · Q.· ·So fair to say the Dot would not be able to
`
`·7· ·work in the way that it works without the Dot
`
`·8· ·infrastructure, right?
`
`·9· · · · · · ·MR. IYER:· Objection to form.· Vague.
`
`10· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yeah.· I don't know what you
`
`11· ·mean by that.· The concept of a Dot, the concept of a
`
`12· ·Dot definition?· What do you mean?
`
`13· ·BY MR. BALLANCO:
`
`14· · · · Q.· ·The -- the concept of a Dot, what really
`
`15· ·enabled it to be as powerful as it was, was that it was
`
`16· ·a part of this larger Dot infrastructure, right?
`
`17· · · · · · ·MR. IYER:· Objection to form.· Vague.
`
`18· · · · · · ·But you can answer.
`
`19· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I think what made the Dot
`
`20· ·powerful was the concept of a Dot, that it was different
`
`21· ·than a web page and different than installed
`
`22· ·application.· And the Dot was intimately related to its
`
`23· ·definition, its template.
`
`24· · · · · · ·Now, there are a lot of ways you could serve
`
`25· ·it and scale it and bring it to market, but the magic is
`
`21
`
`
`
`·1· ·the concept of the Dot and the notion that the Dot isn't
`
`·2· ·a web page.
`
`·3· · · · · · ·It requires a Dot definition to describe
`
`·4· ·effectively all of the characteristics of that Dot which
`
`·5· ·were distinct from the content that came into it.· So
`
`·6· ·the magic that made this work was the concept of a Dot
`
`·7· ·and the Dot definition.· The infrastructure is what
`
`·8· ·enabled us to bring it to market, what enabled us to
`
`·9· ·sell it, what enabled us to have statistics --
`
`10· · · · · · ·Oh, I'm talking fast again.· Thank you.
`
`11· · · · · · ·What enabled us to develop statistics, you
`
`12· ·know, host and develop our ecosystem.· But all of that
`
`13· ·was built on the concept of the Dot and the Dot
`
`14· ·template.
`
`15· ·BY MR. BALLANCO:
`
`16· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· What -- strike that.
`
`17· · · · · · ·How did your Dot technology improve upon what
`
`18· ·your competitors were doing?
`
`19· · · · A.· ·Do you have any competitors in mind?
`
`20· · · · Q.· ·Who would you view as your competitors?
`
`21· · · · A.· ·Man, the Internet was a Wild West of a lot of
`
`22· ·people trying a lot of things.
`
`23· · · · · · ·I think it's fair to say that -- and you can
`
`24· ·see this in the exhibits that I included.· It was fun to
`
`25· ·go back through all of the press and, you know, the
`
`22
`
`
`
`·1· ·materials that I've kept from the company and see how
`
`·2· ·people commented on both the potential and what was
`
`·3· ·exciting about the web but the limitations of the web
`
`·4· ·model.
`
`·5· · · · · · ·So a number of people recognized the
`
`·6· ·limitations of the browser both for companies, for
`
`·7· ·developers, and for end users.· People were trying a lot
`
`·8· ·of different things.
`
`·9· · · · · · ·It's hard to pin down direct competitors
`
`10· ·because people were doing different things trying to
`
`11· ·imagine a different kind of Internet.· We were the only
`
`12· ·ones, and the first that I know of, to take a
`
`13· ·Dot-centric approach, you know, rather than, you know,
`
`14· ·people were doing channels and, you know, portals and
`
`15· ·all kinds of other things.
`
`16· · · · · · ·But we were the only ones to come up with a
`
`17· ·concept of a Dot and a Dot template.· And it was
`
`18· ·different because of those concepts that I just
`
`19· ·described.
`
`20· · · · Q.· ·And how was your technology superior to
`
`21· ·channels, for example?
`
`22· · · · A.· ·I -- I don't remember a whole lot about the
`
`23· ·technology of channels.· I remember there were kind of
`
`24· ·like the T.V. approach of imagining a future Internet --
`
`25· ·right? -- the obvious term of channels coming out of the
`
`23
`
`
`
`·1· ·media ecosystem.
`
`·2· · · · · · ·But our technology was superior because of the
`
`·3· ·flexibility of -- and the configurability of the concept
`
`·4· ·of a Dot and the Dot definition.· And, I mean, companies
`
`·5· ·were trying all kinds of things, obviously, and
`
`·6· ·companies -- other companies were pitching all kinds of
`
`·7· ·things.
`
`·8· · · · · · ·But, man, we collected a lot of well-known
`
`·9· ·customers.· ABC used Dots.· Merriam-Webster used Dots.
`
`10· ·ZDNET used Dots.· A lot of big companies that were big
`
`11· ·back then -- you may not know now -- some still exist --
`
`12· ·just pulled on our DoDot technology because it enabled
`
`13· ·them to solve those needs, as I mentioned before, to
`
`14· ·reach their customers directly, to control the brand of
`
`15· ·their company, to package their services and products
`
`16· ·other than information in a form that honored what their
`
`17· ·offering was and honored their brand to get that out in
`
`18· ·a viral distributive way, enable a whole class of
`
`19· ·content developers and web developers to develop those
`
`20· ·Dots for them rather than having to hire native software
`
`21· ·developers and -- and to engage their customers, their
`
`22· ·end users more directly.
`
`23· · · · · · ·I think I include in some of the marketing
`
`24· ·materials the engagement metrics of Dots were orders of
`
`25· ·magnitude greater than the engagement metrics of normal
`
`24
`
`
`
`·1· ·web pages which showed it met the needs of users of
`
`·2· ·wanting to pull this content and interactivity into
`
`·3· ·their world and their day-to-day work experience, and it
`
`·4· ·met the needs of companies trying to engage their
`
`·5· ·customers in whatever product service or experience they
`
`·6· ·wanted.
`
`·7· · · · · · ·So I would call that evidence of the
`
`·8· ·superiority of our technology, if that answers your
`
`·9· ·question.
`
`10· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· Anything else that comes to mind?
`
`11· ·Those are the key things that differentiate your product
`
`12· ·from everything else that was on the marketplace?
`
`13· · · · A.· ·I would just reemphasize the key
`
`14· ·differentiator was the Dot and the magic that made it
`
`15· ·work, the Dot template.
`
`16· · · · Q.· ·The Dot template.· If I'm understanding your
`
`17· ·testimony correctly, please correct me if I'm wrong,
`
`18· ·that is what enabled nontraditional code developers to
`
`19· ·work on Dots; is that fair?
`
`20· · · · A.· ·The Dot template in that regard, sure.· The
`
`21· ·Dot template, you know, technically defined the
`
`22· ·characteristics of the Dot.· It defined the
`
`23· ·characteristics of the controls and the view within it.
`
`24· ·But that enabled -- as a result, that enabled what we
`
`25· ·called "Dot developers."· You might call them app
`
`25
`
`
`
`·1· ·developers now, right?
`
`·2· · · · · · ·Rather than traditional software developers
`
`·3· ·sitting, coding, compiling code, distributing software
`
`·4· ·over CDs -- I don't know if you remember this.· Software
`
`·5· ·was distributed -- you went down to, you know, the
`
`·6· ·store, and you bought a box.· You took a CD out.· You
`
`·7· ·stuck it into your CD drive.
`
`·8· · · · · · ·These computer's don't have CD drives.· You
`
`·9· ·installed, compiled executable applications on your
`
`10· ·computer, and you ran them.· And they did not
`
`11· ·auto-update, by the way.· You went a year later, got
`
`12· ·another CD, and updated it.
`
`13· · · · · · ·And so to be a software developer for what we
`
`14· ·now would call native software applications and the
`
`15· ·whole distribution system, packaging system, for getting
`
`16· ·that type of software onto the computers of users
`
`17· ·required a certain technical skill set.· Native software
`
`18· ·developers.
`
`19· · · · · · ·The concept of a Dot and Dot template enabled
`
`20· ·the emerging class of web developers and content
`
`21· ·developers to offer a similar interactive app-like
`
`22· ·experience on a user's device, which, by the way, could
`
`23· ·be their computer, could natively move to their mobile
`
`24· ·devices.
`
`25· · · · · · ·You might remember PalmPilots and PDAs and
`
`26
`
`
`
`·1· ·phones with screens.· Companies were struggling to
`
`·2· ·figure out how to get big pages onto small things.· Dots
`
`·3· ·were small.· They just went across.· And so it enabled
`
`·4· ·those developers to make those types of interactive app
`
`·5· ·experiences simply by defining a Dot template and the
`
`·6· ·content that went within it.
`
`·7· · · · · · ·So it enabled that entire group of people who
`
`·8· ·had a need to want to contribute but didn't have the
`
`·9· ·skill set to do it to participate.· In that regard, yes,
`
`10· ·it enabled them to develop -- develop, I would put that
`
`11· ·in quotes, Dots.
`
`12· · · · Q.· ·Okay.· And you mentioned before in your
`
`13· ·testimony that traditional applications you'd need to
`
`14· ·download them from -- or load them from CD-ROMs onto
`
`15· ·your machine and update with new CD-ROMs.
`
`16· · · · · · ·What about the Dot technology obviated that?
`
`17· · · · A.· ·What do you mean by "obviated"?
`
`18· · · · Q.· ·In other words, why was that not required to
`
`19· ·download an appl
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