·1· · · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`·2· · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`·3
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`·4· ·SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD.,· )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· IPR2023-00621
`·5· · · · · · · · · Petitioner,· · · )· Patent No. 8,020,083
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·6· · · · · vs.· · · · · · · · · · · )· IPR2023-00701
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· Patent No. 8,510,407
`·7· ·DODOTS LICENSING SOLUTIONS LLC, )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· IPR2023-00756
`·8· · · · · · · · · Patent Owner.· · )· Patent No. 9,369,545
`· · ·________________________________)
`·9
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`10
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`11
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`12
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`13
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`14· · · · · · · · · · · · DEPOSITION OF
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`15· · · · · · · · · EDWIN JOSEPH SELKER, PH.D.
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`16· · · · · · · · · ·VIA ZOOM VIDEOCONFERENCE
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`17· · · · · · · · · · · · ·MAY 10, 2024
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`18
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`23
`· · ·Reported by:
`24· ·COLLEEN M. PETERMAN, CSR 7882
`· · ·Job No. 24-136955
`25· ·Reference 39843-0148IP1, 39843-0149IP1, 39843-0150IP1
`
`1
`
`Exhibit 1030
`Samsung v. DoDots
`IPR2023-00701
`
`
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`·2· · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`·3
`
`·4· ·SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD.,· )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· IPR2023-00621
`·5· · · · · · · · · Petitioner,· · · )· Patent No. 8,020,083
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·6· · · · · vs.· · · · · · · · · · · )· IPR2023-00701
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· Patent No. 8,510,407
`·7· ·DODOTS LICENSING SOLUTIONS LLC, )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· IPR2023-00756
`·8· · · · · · · · · Patent Owner.· · )· Patent No. 9,369,545
`· · ·________________________________)
`·9
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`10
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`11
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`12
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`13
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`14· · · · · · · · · · · · DEPOSITION OF
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`15· · · · · · · · · EDWIN JOSEPH SELKER, PH.D.
`
`16· · · · · · · · · ·VIA ZOOM VIDEOCONFERENCE
`
`17· · · · · · · · · · · · ·MAY 10, 2024
`
`18
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`19
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`20
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`21
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`22
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`23
`· · ·Reported by:
`24· ·COLLEEN M. PETERMAN, CSR 7882
`· · ·Job No. 24-136955
`25· ·Reference 39843-0148IP1, 39843-0149IP1, 39843-0150IP1
`
`1
`
`Exhibit 1030
`Samsung v. DoDots
`IPR2023-00701
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`·2· · · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`·3
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`·4· ·SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD.,· )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· IPR2023-00621
`·5· · · · · · · · · Petitioner,· · · )· Patent No. 8,020,083
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)
`·6· · · · · vs.· · · · · · · · · · · )· IPR2023-00701
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· Patent No. 8,510,407
`·7· ·DODOTS LICENSING SOLUTIONS LLC, )
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·)· IPR2023-00756
`·8· · · · · · · · · Patent Owner.· · )· Patent No. 9,369,545
`· · ·________________________________)
`·9
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`14· · · · · · ·DEPOSITION OF EDWIN JOSEPH SELKER,
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`15· · · · · · ·PH.D., a witness herein, taken on
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`16· · · · · · ·behalf of the petitioner via Zoom
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`17· · · · · · ·videoconference at 9:07 a.m. on
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`18· · · · · · ·Friday, May 10, 2024, before
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`19· · · · · · ·Colleen M. Peterman, CSR 7882.
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`·1· ·APPEARANCES (All Participants Appeared Remotely):
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`·2
`· · ·For Petitioner:
`·3
`· · · · · · · FISH & RICHARDSON P.C.
`·4· · · · · · BY MICHAEL J. BALLANCO
`· · · · · · · · ·HYUN JIN IN, PH.D.
`·5· · · · · · 1000 Maine Avenue SW, Suite 1000
`· · · · · · · Washington, DC· 20024
`·6· · · · · · 202.783.5070
`· · · · · · · ballanco@fr.com
`·7· · · · · · in@fr.com
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`·8
`· · ·For Patent Owner:
`·9
`· · · · · · · DAIGNAULT IYER LLP
`10· · · · · · BY RICHARD JUANG
`· · · · · · · 8618 Westwood Center Drive, Suite 150
`11· · · · · · Vienna, Virginia 22182
`· · · · · · · 614.208.5321
`12· · · · · · rjuang@daignaultiyer.com
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`13
`· · ·For Apple:
`14
`· · · · · · · ERISE IP
`15· · · · · · BY CHRISTINA CANINO
`· · · · · · · · ·PAUL R. HART
`16· · · · · · 717 17th Street, Suite 1400
`· · · · · · · Denver, Colorado 80202
`17· · · · · · 720.307.8382
`· · · · · · · christina.canino@eriseip.com
`18· · · · · · paul.hart@eriseip.com
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`19
`· · ·Also Present:
`20
`· · · · · · · Christopher von Gunten
`21
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`·1· · · · · · · · · · · · · I N D E X
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`·2· ·WITNESS:· EDWIN JOSEPH SELKER, PH.D.
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`·3· ·EXAMINATION BY· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
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`·4· ·MR. BALLANCO· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·5
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`·5· ·MR. JUANG· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · 137
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`·6
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`·7
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`·8· · · · · · · · · PRIOR EXHIBITS REFERENCED
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · · ·Exhibit· · · Page
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`10· · · · · · · · · · · ·Exhibit 1001· 76
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`11· · · · · · · · · · · ·Exhibit 1005 113
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`12· · · · · · · · · · · ·Exhibit 1006 113
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`13· · · · · · · · · · · ·Exhibit 2010· 69
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`14· · · · · · · · · · · ·Exhibit 2011· 12
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`·1· · · · · · · · · ·VIA ZOOM VIDEOCONFERENCE
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`·2· · · · · · · · · · · · ·MAY 10, 2024
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`·3
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`·4· · · · · · · · ·EDWIN JOSEPH SELKER, PH.D.,
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`·5· · · · · · · ·HAVING BEEN DULY ADMINISTERED AN
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`·6· · · · · · · OATH BY THE REPORTER, WAS EXAMINED
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`·7· · · · · · · · · AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
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`·8
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`·9· · · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION
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`10
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`11· ·BY MR. BALLANCO:
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`12· · · · ·Q.· Good morning, sir.· Would you please state
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`13· ·your name for the record.
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`14· · · · ·A.· Yeah.· I'm Ted Selker, legally called Edwin
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`15· ·Joseph Selker.
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`16· · · · · · ·MR. JUANG:· Counsel, real quick, can we make
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`17· ·our appearances for the record, all the attorneys in the
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`18· ·room?
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`19· · · · · · ·MR. BALLANCO:· Yeah.· Let's do that.
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`20· · · · · · ·So appearing for Samsung in this proceeding is
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`21· ·myself, Michael Ballanco, with the law firm of Fish &
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`22· ·Richardson.· Joined with me are my colleagues, my fellow
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`23· ·partner Hyun Jin In and our technical adviser
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`24· ·Christopher von Gunten.· And that's all for Samsung.
`
`25· · · · · · ·MR. JUANG:· And appearing on behalf of DoDots
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`5
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`·1· ·is Richard Juang, for the witness, and we are from the
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`·2· ·law firm of Daignault Iyer LLP.
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`·3· · · · · · ·THE REPORTER:· I'm sorry.· I'm having problems
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`·4· ·with the volume, Mr. Juang.
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`·5· · · · · · ·MR. JUANG:· Oh, you know what?· We only have
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`·6· ·one mic.· I'll talk louder.· I apologize.
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`·7· · · · · · ·THE REPORTER:· Okay.
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`·8· · · · · · ·MR. JUANG:· But I'll say it again.
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`·9· · · · · · ·Do you need me to say it again, or are you
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`10· ·okay with that one?
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`11· · · · · · ·THE REPORTER:· I'm good.
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`12· · · · · · ·MR. JUANG:· Okay.· And I reckon one more
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`13· ·party's here.
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`14· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Who?
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`15· · · · · · ·MS. CANINO:· Paul Hart and Christina Canino
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`16· ·are here, with Erise IP, on behalf of Apple, just
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`17· ·sitting in.
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`18· · · · · · ·MR. BALLANCO:· And before we start with the
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`19· ·questioning, I did want to ask one thing on the record
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`20· ·to counsel.· As you know, there's three IPR proceedings.
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`21· ·We're doing one deposition for the common expert witness
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`22· ·across those three.
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`23· · · · · · ·Can we agree that this transcript can be used
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`24· ·across all three of those proceedings?
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`25· · · · · · ·MR. JUANG:· Yeah.· I think this one will apply
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`6
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`·1· ·to all three.· Usually there's a videographer that reads
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`·2· ·the case numbers onto the record.
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`·3· · · · · · ·Do we need to read those onto the record, or
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`·4· ·can we just agree?
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`·5· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· '545, '083, '407.
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`·6· · · · · · ·MR. JUANG:· The IPR numbers?
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`·7· · · · · · ·MR. BALLANCO:· Maybe we can handle that after
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`·8· ·the next break.· I can pull those, and we can read them
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`·9· ·into the record.
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`10· · · · · · ·MR. JUANG:· Okay.· Yeah.
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`11· ·BY MR. BALLANCO:
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`12· · · · ·Q.· So good morning, Dr. Selker.
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`13· · · · · · ·How many times have you been deposed before
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`14· ·today?
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`15· · · · ·A.· Oh, I don't know.· Something around 10.
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`16· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And have you been deposed in an IPR
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`17· ·proceeding before?
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`18· · · · ·A.· Yes.
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`19· · · · ·Q.· How many times in an IPR?
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`20· · · · ·A.· Gosh.· I'd have to look at my resume.· I don't
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`21· ·remember.· A couple.
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`22· · · · ·Q.· Well, I'm going to just start with some ground
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`23· ·rules.· You've probably been through this before, but I
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`24· ·think it's always good just to make sure we're on the
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`25· ·same page.
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`7
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`·1· · · · · · ·So, sir, do you understand you're under oath
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`·2· ·today?
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`·3· · · · ·A.· Yes.
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`·4· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· So you understand that you have to tell
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`·5· ·the truth in all your responses?
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`·6· · · · ·A.· Yes.
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`·7· · · · ·Q.· And you'll do that?
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`·8· · · · ·A.· Yes.
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`·9· · · · ·Q.· And you understand that if you don't
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`10· ·understand a question I ask, you will let me know that
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`11· ·you don't understand it; right?
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`12· · · · ·A.· I'll do my best.
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`13· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And then if you answer a question, I'll
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`14· ·take that to mean that you understood it; is that fair?
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`15· · · · ·A.· Yes.
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`16· · · · ·Q.· We'll take breaks about every hour.
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`17· · · · · · ·Okay?
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`18· · · · ·A.· Good.
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`19· · · · ·Q.· If you at any point need to take a break
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`20· ·sooner than that, let me know, and I'll let you take a
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`21· ·break.
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`22· · · · · · ·Okay?
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`23· · · · ·A.· Thank you.
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`24· · · · ·Q.· The only caveat I'll give there is I'll ask
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`25· ·you to finish answering any question that's pending
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`8
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`·1· ·before we take the break.
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`·2· · · · · · ·Fair?
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`·3· · · · ·A.· If I can.· Yes.· I'll try.· I mean, you know,
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`·4· ·let's just say, you know, if you hit me 25 times with
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`·5· ·something, I might get to the point where I need a break
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`·6· ·anyway.
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`·7· · · · ·Q.· All right.· All I'll ask is for you to answer
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`·8· ·the pending question, and then we can stop there and
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`·9· ·take the break.
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`10· · · · ·A.· I'll try.
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`11· · · · ·Q.· Is there any reason, medical or otherwise, you
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`12· ·can't give truthful, complete, and accurate testimony
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`13· ·today?
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`14· · · · ·A.· No.
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`15· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· If that ever changes, please tell me.
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`16· · · · · · ·Okay?
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`17· · · · ·A.· Sure.
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`18· · · · ·Q.· Okay, sir.· Let's start by asking, you
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`19· ·mentioned you've been deposed maybe about 10 times; is
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`20· ·that right?
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`21· · · · ·A.· Yeah.
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`22· · · · ·Q.· And those depositions, have they all been for
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`23· ·cases involving patent infringement?
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`24· · · · ·A.· There was one real estate deposition.· Other
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`25· ·than that, they've been for patent infringement --
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`9
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`·1· · · · ·Q.· Okay.
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`·2· · · · ·A.· -- or -- yeah.· I think they're all
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`·3· ·infringement.· Or, I mean -- well, there may be -- like
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`·4· ·I said, there's a couple that were IPRs.
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`·5· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· All relating to patents in some way
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`·6· ·except for the one that was a --
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`·7· · · · ·A.· Yeah.
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`·8· · · · ·Q.· -- real estate; right?
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`·9· · · · ·A.· Oh.· I was also -- I'm sorry.· I was also
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`10· ·deposed -- I thought I'd turned this off.· I'm so sorry.
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`11· ·Yeah.· Just a second.· I've got to turn off my messages.
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`12· ·Hang on.· Ring volume to zero.
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`13· · · · · · ·Yeah.· So I was also -- there was one
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`14· ·deposition that was around some Carnegie Mellon -- what
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`15· ·do you call it -- somebody -- a work -- you know, HR
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`16· ·issue.
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`17· · · · ·Q.· Understood.· So there was a real estate
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`18· ·matter, the employment matter, and the rest of your
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`19· ·depositions have been for patent matters; fair?
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`20· · · · ·A.· Right.
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`21· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Let me first ask you about the real
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`22· ·estate matter.
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`23· · · · · · ·Were you serving as an expert in that
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`24· ·proceeding?
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`25· · · · ·A.· No.· It was real estate that I -- I was trying
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`10
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`·1· ·to buy a house, and then I was trying to get -- I mean I
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`·2· ·was trying to get my earnest money back, and, you know,
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`·3· ·it became a mess.· Yeah.
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`·4· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· A personal matter, not an expert.
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`·5· · · · ·A.· Yeah, personal.· And the other one was, you
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`·6· ·know, actually, I -- I actually was no longer employed
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`·7· ·with Carnegie Mellon.· It was not about me.· It was
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`·8· ·about another employee.
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`·9· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· So just to be clear, the Carnegie
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`10· ·Mellon matter then was also not you serving as an
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`11· ·expert.· You were serving as --
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`12· · · · ·A.· I -- yeah.· I was somebody that had been --
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`13· ·that had worked with this person and can tell what
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`14· ·happened.
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`15· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· So in your patent matters, on the other
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`16· ·side of the ledger, when you testified in those matters,
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`17· ·have you always served in the capacity of an expert
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`18· ·witness?
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`19· · · · ·A.· Yes.
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`20· · · · ·Q.· And so if we put aside the Carnegie Mellon
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`21· ·matter and the real estate matter, would you say you've
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`22· ·been involved in eight or so patent matters?
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`23· · · · ·A.· Yeah.· I mean it's in my resume, but that's
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`24· ·kind of my recollection.
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`25· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And in those patent matters, have you
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`11
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`·1· ·always represented the patent owner or the patent
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`·2· ·holder?
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`·3· · · · ·A.· No.· Some of them have been -- you know,
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`·4· ·they've been both sides.· They've been different sides.
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`·5· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· In any of the cases that you've worked
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`·6· ·as an expert in -- strike that.
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`·7· · · · · · ·In the patent cases where you've worked as an
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`·8· ·expert, has your testimony, to your knowledge, ever been
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`·9· ·excluded from a case?
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`10· · · · ·A.· Oh, my gosh.· I don't -- not that I know of.
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`11· · · · ·Q.· Sir, I'm going to start this morning by asking
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`12· ·you a few questions about your background.· And to do
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`13· ·that, I'd like to have a look at your C.V. that was
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`14· ·submitted in this proceeding.· So I'm going to add that
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`15· ·to the chat.
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`16· · · · · · ·(Exhibit 2011 referenced)
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`17· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Is there some way I could use
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`18· ·both of these screens?
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`19· · · · · · ·MR. JUANG:· Yeah.
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`20· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· There's just another screen.· It
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`21· ·would be fun to have it up there.
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`22· ·BY MR. BALLANCO:
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`23· · · · ·Q.· Okay.
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`24· · · · ·A.· I don't know how to do that right off the bat.
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`25· ·There's a little card here.· But anyway -- oh, yeah.
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`12
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`·1· ·Right there.· Okay.· Go there.· Type in browser -- this
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`·2· ·will be fun -- 756.· Sorry.· I'm not going to take long
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`·3· ·doing this, I hope.
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`·4· · · · ·Q.· Take your time.
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`·5· · · · · · ·Just for the record, I've added the document
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`·6· ·to the chat.· Let me know if you've received that and if
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`·7· ·you're able to open that and view it, and let me know
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`·8· ·when you have.
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`·9· · · · ·A.· Yeah.· It would just be so nice to not have to
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`10· ·exclude you while I'm looking at this stuff.
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`11· · · · ·Q.· Take your time.
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`12· · · · ·A.· Yeah.· Now, what do I want to do?· Window.
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`13· ·Oh.· Can I get another screen?· Yeah.· But how do I --
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`14· · · · · · ·MR. BALLANCO:· Counsel, if you'd like, if you
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`15· ·want to go off the record for a minute to get the
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`16· ·technology set up, we can do that.· I'm happy to.
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`17· · · · · · ·MR. JUANG:· It shouldn't take him too much
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`18· ·longer.· We'll be done in a second.
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`19· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yeah.· Okay.· So I've got my
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`20· ·C.V., and I want to save it or open.· I don't have
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`21· ·permission to save it.· Well, we don't see it there.
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`22· ·Let me see.· Oh, I can't go there.· Save as file name --
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`23· ·where the hell am I -- this PC.
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`24· · · · · · ·THE REPORTER:· We're still on the record;
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`25· ·right?
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`13
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`·1· · · · · · ·MR. JUANG:· Let's go off the record.
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`·2· · · · · · ·MR. BALLANCO:· Yeah.
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`·3· · · · · · ·(Discussion off the record)
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`·4· ·BY MR. BALLANCO:
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`·5· · · · ·Q.· All right.· So, sir, now you have your C.V. in
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`·6· ·front of you, which I'll note for the record has been
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`·7· ·marked in, I think, the '083 patent proceeding as
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`·8· ·Exhibit 2011; is that right?
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`·9· · · · ·A.· Yes.
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`10· · · · ·Q.· And to your observation, it appears to be a
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`11· ·fair and accurate copy of the C.V. that you submitted in
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`12· ·this proceeding?
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`13· · · · ·A.· Yes.
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`14· · · · ·Q.· So, sir, let's start with your educational
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`15· ·background.
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`16· · · · · · ·You graduated with an M.S. in computer and
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`17· ·information sciences in 1981; right?
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`18· · · · ·A.· That's right.· That was my master's degree.
`
`19· ·Yes.
`
`20· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Could you explain for me what you did
`
`21· ·for work following graduation with your master's degree.
`
`22· · · · ·A.· I worked as a graduate student and lecturer at
`
`23· ·Stanford University until I began working at Atari
`
`24· ·Research in 1983.· That was so much fun.· And then I --
`
`25· ·the place collapsed, and I went back to Stanford and
`
`14
`
`
`
`·1· ·taught their AI graduate class.· And then from there, I
`
`·2· ·went and worked at Xerox PARC for about nine months.
`
`·3· ·And then from there, I went to IBM Research, where I
`
`·4· ·spent 14 years.
`
`·5· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Let me unpack that a little bit.
`
`·6· · · · · · ·When you mentioned working at Atari, is that
`
`·7· ·Atari as we know it, the video game manufacturer?
`
`·8· · · · ·A.· Absolutely.· Back when they did that.
`
`·9· · · · ·Q.· Can you describe the work that you did at
`
`10· ·Atari.
`
`11· · · · ·A.· Oh, yeah.· I was allowed -- I was encouraged
`
`12· ·to envision the future.· I worked on several things,
`
`13· ·some software for actually making a window system that
`
`14· ·would be stored and brought up at will.· Somehow that
`
`15· ·seemed like a fancy, unusual thing.· I used a Lisp
`
`16· ·machine to do that programming.
`
`17· · · · · · ·I designed something called Dreamwriter, which
`
`18· ·is a mobile device that would allow you to write
`
`19· ·anything you want anywhere, you know, pictures and
`
`20· ·stuff, rub them onto paper.· And I worked on some motion
`
`21· ·platform stuff to get simulations that people could use
`
`22· ·for games.· And I probably did other things. I
`
`23· ·evaluated their telephone offering, which was a piece of
`
`24· ·crap.· And other things like that.
`
`25· · · · ·Q.· One of the first things you mentioned in
`
`15
`
`
`
`·1· ·describing your work at Atari was working -- I think I
`
`·2· ·heard this correctly, but I maybe didn't.
`
`·3· · · · · · ·You said you worked with envisioning windows
`
`·4· ·for the application?
`
`·5· · · · · · ·Maybe I misheard that.· Could you explain to
`
`·6· ·me what --
`
`·7· · · · ·A.· Yeah.· So at that time there were these very,
`
`·8· ·very fancy computers.· Lisp machine was the name of the
`
`·9· ·one I was using.· And when you brought up windows for
`
`10· ·purposes to run applications in them, you'd have to set
`
`11· ·up your desktop every time you came to use it.· These
`
`12· ·were shared computers, and so -- because they were --
`
`13· ·they were a hundred thousand dollars each.
`
`14· · · · · · ·So I wrote a little piece of software that
`
`15· ·would collect all of the -- all the ways I've laid out
`
`16· ·my windows and let me regenerate them from -- when I
`
`17· ·needed them.
`
`18· · · · ·Q.· And when you say "windows," are you talking
`
`19· ·about, like, a -- what are you talking about?
`
`20· · · · ·A.· Yeah.· I'm talking about the layout on the
`
`21· ·screen with various applications in them.· I mean
`
`22· ·application's a little bit -- you know, there would be a
`
`23· ·text editor.· There would be the compiler.· There would
`
`24· ·be, you know, maybe something else that I've written.
`
`25· ·We had -- you know, we had an application for
`
`16
`
`
`
`·1· ·controlling the room.· Things like that.
`
`·2· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· And you said this was on a -- did you
`
`·3· ·say a Lisp machine, as in the programming language Lisp,
`
`·4· ·or --
`
`·5· · · · ·A.· Yeah.· Symbolics was the company that made
`
`·6· ·something called the Lisp machine.· There was also two
`
`·7· ·other companies, TI and LMI, that made the same
`
`·8· ·compatible machines, sort of.· And then there was the
`
`·9· ·Xerox Dorado, which I liked better.· But they wouldn't
`
`10· ·let me have it.
`
`11· · · · ·Q.· Well, we'll get to Xerox in a moment, because
`
`12· ·I know you worked there as well, but I want to ask a few
`
`13· ·more questions about Atari.· I want to make sure I
`
`14· ·understand, though.
`
`15· · · · · · ·When you're talking about creating these
`
`16· ·windows and the use for them, are you talking about
`
`17· ·the -- this was for the developers, as opposed to the
`
`18· ·user using the Atari system; is that fair?
`
`19· · · · ·A.· Certainly no Atari user was playing with these
`
`20· ·Lisp -- Symbolics Lisp machines, that I know.· I mean
`
`21· ·except, you know, it was all -- it was all -- you know,
`
`22· ·there were 14 researchers, and I was one of them.
`
`23· · · · · · ·But what we -- what we -- what I used it for
`
`24· ·was resetting up my desktop the way I'd left it the last
`
`25· ·time I used it.· And then I could modify it and save
`
`17
`
`
`
`·1· ·that again.
`
`·2· · · · ·Q.· I understand.· At least I think I do.
`
`·3· · · · · · ·And is this -- I'm just trying to put myself
`
`·4· ·back into the '80s and computing environments back then.
`
`·5· · · · · · ·Is this because you could use windows, as
`
`·6· ·opposed to, say, a DOS prompt, and windows would give
`
`·7· ·you a better view as to how to access the programming
`
`·8· ·interfaces that you wanted to work with, as opposed to,
`
`·9· ·say, a DOS prompt?
`
`10· · · · ·A.· Yeah.· On the Lisp machine, there was -- the
`
`11· ·system was very, very -- you know, it was an extremely
`
`12· ·early use of mouse and windows.· And certainly it had
`
`13· ·nothing to do with Microsoft DOS prompts or Windows
`
`14· ·systems.· It was their own -- it was all constrained.
`
`15· · · · · · ·Built into the programming language was this
`
`16· ·idea of, you know, placing things on the screen.· And so
`
`17· ·everything, you know, you did was as though you were
`
`18· ·rewriting the operating system.· So everything was
`
`19· ·integrated in.· And you'd have what would be a main
`
`20· ·space, it was called, where you controlled everything,
`
`21· ·and you could save your image.
`
`22· · · · · · ·Anyway, it was a long time ago.· It's
`
`23· ·interesting.· I hadn't even thought of it until you
`
`24· ·asked your question.· It's been a long time since I've
`
`25· ·thought about that system.· Yeah.· I mean I had one that
`
`18
`
`
`
`·1· ·I built specially.
`
`·2· · · · · · ·(Reporter clarification)
`
`·3· ·BY MR. BALLANCO:
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· And I don't want to go on for too much longer.
`
`·5· · · · · · ·(Simultaneous speakers)
`
`·6· ·BY MR. BALLANCO:
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· And I'm just curious.
`
`·8· · · · · · ·These windows that you worked on, would you
`
`·9· ·only be able to view one at a time, or were multiple
`
`10· ·windows viewable on the screen simultaneously?
`
`11· · · · ·A.· Well, funny you should ask.· At Stanford I
`
`12· ·actually built a system which allowed you to snap a
`
`13· ·different window onto a screen one at a time.· Didn't
`
`14· ·show ever more than one.· That was called the Stanford
`
`15· ·AI lab data disk system.· And I helped build it.· We
`
`16· ·could talk about that if you want.
`
`17· · · · · · ·At Xerox -- I mean at Atari, we were using
`
`18· ·this -- these Lisp machines, and we had the -- you know,
`
`19· ·this luxury of these gigantic screens, kind of like what
`
`20· ·we have today, about the same size, by the way.· Well,
`
`21· ·not physically, but they had a couple thousand pixels by
`
`22· ·a couple thousand pixels.· That's why they were
`
`23· ·expensive.
`
`24· · · · · · ·But they -- and so you could place different
`
`25· ·things you were -- different things, your email and the
`
`19
`
`
`
`·1· ·compiler and some code you're looking at, maybe some --
`
`·2· ·you know, some interactive thing on the screen
`
`·3· ·simultaneously.
`
`·4· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· I understand.· And this was -- you
`
`·5· ·mentioned there's a big monitor.· So I assume this was
`
`·6· ·a -- I don't want to say a desktop.
`
`·7· · · · · · ·Was it a mainframe that had a monitor
`
`·8· ·connected to it?· Is that a fair characterization?
`
`·9· · · · ·A.· These things actually, yeah, ran on 220, and
`
`10· ·they were, like, in a raised-floor room with big air
`
`11· ·going through them.· We called them scientific
`
`12· ·workstations.
`
`13· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Fair.· Scientific workstations.· Large
`
`14· ·monitor.· And you would have different windows that
`
`15· ·would have a compiler, email, various things displayed
`
`16· ·on the screen.
`
`17· · · · ·A.· Yeah.· More in my case than most people.· Most
`
`18· ·people would just bring up one window, mostly, and that
`
`19· ·was why I was kind of -- you know, I built this to make
`
`20· ·it easy for them to do that.
`
`21· · · · ·Q.· But it must have been pretty convenient back
`
`22· ·in those days to have people like that, I have to
`
`23· ·imagine.
`
`24· · · · ·A.· Yeah.· It was fun.· I mean even the mouse was,
`
`25· ·you know, kind of novel.· Yeah.· That was the first
`
`20
`
`
`
`·1· ·place I worked with a mouse, yeah.
`
`·2· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· Let's talk then about -- I think the
`
`·3· ·next one you mentioned after Atari would have been
`
`·4· ·Xerox; is that right?
`
`·5· · · · ·A.· Yeah.· Yeah.· I was at Xerox --
`
`·6· · · · ·Q.· Okay.
`
`·7· · · · ·A.· -- PARC for nine months.
`
`·8· · · · ·Q.· Xerox --
`
`·9· · · · ·A.· Palo Alto Research Center.
`
`10· · · · ·Q.· What were you doing at Xerox PARC?
`
`11· · · · ·A.· I was working on a project called CoLab.· It
`
`12· ·was a collaboration project.· We had a room that was
`
`13· ·just full of monitors, and they could share information
`
`14· ·across the monitors and on the big, wall-size display.
`
`15· ·That display was something called a GE Light Valve that
`
`16· ·cost a hundred thousand bucks.· Very interesting thing.
`
`17· ·And I made the touchscreen for that, actually, for that
`
`18· ·wall's device.
`
`19· · · · · · ·But anyway, I made something called -- I mean
`
`20· ·I don't know if any of this stuff is relevant, actually,
`
`21· ·but, you know, I'm happy to talk about it.· I made
`
`22· ·something called Instruments.· Instruments was this
`
`23· ·thing called -- which I called a composite icon.
`
`24· · · · · · ·And you have these different parts of icons
`
`25· ·that you could snap together to make icons that were,
`
`21
`
`
`
`·1· ·like, you know, if the -- if the -- one was a picture of
`
`·2· ·a Pyrex pitcher, and if it filled up, it would kind of
`
`·3· ·go over -- it would go over the edges.· And if it was
`
`·4· ·completely empty, the thing would crack.· So those were
`
`·5· ·states.· But, also, there was this analog nature of
`
`·6· ·filling up like a bar chart.
`
`·7· · · · · · ·And these were both controls as well as
`
`·8· ·presentation devices.· So I could hook it onto a
`
`·9· ·computer program, and then I could watch the variable
`
`10· ·changing, or I could change the variable with my mouse.
`
`11· · · · ·Q.· And what was the application of this work that
`
`12· ·you did at Xerox?
`
`13· · · · · · ·I mean I'm familiar with Xerox copiers.
`
`14· · · · · · ·Was this relevant to that or for some other
`
`15· ·aspect --
`
`16· · · · ·A.· No.
`
`17· · · · ·Q.· -- of Xerox?
`
`18· · · · ·A.· Xerox PARC was the envisioning center of the
`
`19· ·universe, in my view.· I mean it was where the mouse and
`
`20· ·windows were first demonstrated.· It was a place where
`
`21· ·people were trying out new ways of using systems, things
`
`22· ·like the WYSIWYG editor that we use on Word.· That was
`
`23· ·actually stolen from PARC.· So it was a very exciting
`
`24· ·place, full of these quite arrogant but very
`
`25· ·impressively smart people.
`
`22
`
`
`
`·1· · · · · · ·And so -- and so I worked on kind of, you
`
`·2· ·know, two things.· That -- well, more than two.· But
`
`·3· ·that interface Instruments thing that I was building,
`
`·4· ·that was to demonstrate some interesting ideas we called
`
`·5· ·active values in a language called Loops.
`
`·6· · · · · · ·Loops was supposed to be something where you
`
`·7· ·could attach functionality to any of the variables or
`
`·8· ·even constants.· And the problem with that, of course,
`
`·9· ·is it's kind of invisible programming.· You don't see
`
`10· ·whether something's going to start a program or not.
`
`11· · · · · · ·So this idea of Instruments was using that
`
`12· ·facility, demonstrating it, and thinking about -- well,
`
`13· ·for me, I was thinking about new ways of thinking
`
`14· ·about -- you know, I had this idea of active icons,
`
`15· ·icons that were live.· You could wiggle them and change
`
`16· ·them, and they would change, and they weren't just
`
`17· ·static.· So that was one aspect of my work there.
`
`18· · · · · · ·The other aspect was supporting this team that
`
`19· ·was building this collaborative work environment, where
`
`20· ·there was something called Argnoter and Cognoter.
`
`21· · · · · · ·These were applications which allowed you to
`
`22· ·lay out your arguments for a discussion, or your ideas,
`
`23· ·and they would be shown on multiple computers
`
`24· ·simultaneously, so people could sit around this nice,
`
`25· ·beautiful room full of built-in oak furniture and try to
`
`23
`
`
`
`·1· ·have meetings and pretend they were being serious.
`
`·2· · · · ·Q.· Going back briefly to Instruments, what became
`
`·3· ·of your work there?· Was that commercialized in any way,
`
`·4· ·shape, or form, to your knowledge?
`
`·5· · · · ·A.· The only thing I -- yeah.· The sad news is the
`
`·6· ·only place that I think you can find it now is there's a
`
`·7· ·paper I wrote about visualization that went into a
`
`·8· ·book -- Art Appel was a coauthor on that -- about
`
`·9· ·presentation layer of -- graphics being presentation
`
`10· ·layer.· It was visual language.
`
`11· · · · · · ·So I had this dream of, you know, making a
`
`12· ·whole linguistics, a visual language, and I had a few
`
`13· ·papers about that back in '88, '9.· You can look in this
`
`14· ·C.V.· I don't remember.· But something in that area.
`
`15· · · · · · ·So there's two or three papers, one with Larry
`
`16· ·Koved, one with Wendy -- what's her last name?· I don't
`
`17· ·remember.· It's not Wendy.· Anyway, with the woman and
`
`18· ·Larry.· And then this one.
`
`19· · · · · · ·Those are the only places I ever -- and, you
`
`20· ·know, I left to go to IBM.· And I thought it was such a
`
`21· ·special thing, but they didn't kind of keep working on
`
`22· ·it.· And then PARC had this history.· They had a very
`
`23· ·big problem.· They never really liked -- they never
`
`24· ·commercialized things effectively.· That was their big
`
`25· ·problem.· So --
`
`24
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q.· Going back to Wendy, is it Wendy Ark?
`
`·2· · · · ·A.· No.· Let me see.· I can look it up.· It was a
`
`·3· ·long time ago.· She was -- well, she's gone now.· Cathy
`
`·4· ·Wolf.
`
`·5· · · · ·Q.· Cathy Wolf.· Okay.
`
`·6· · · · ·A.· Yeah.· Psychologist.
`
`·7· · · · ·Q.· So I know you mentioned going to IBM.
`
`·8· · · · · · ·Before that, did you go back to Stanford -- is
`
`·9· ·that right -- after Xerox PARC?
`
`10· · · · ·A.· No.· No.· I was -- I mean I -- you know, when
`
`11· ·there was a grad student there, I ran a seminar series
`
`12· ·called User System Ergonomics from '81 to '83.· I don't
`
`13· ·think I continued running that -- I may have when I was
`
`14· ·at PARC.· I think I did.
`
`15· · · · · · ·But then I -- but then I went -- when I left
`
`16· ·Atari and I needed something to do, I taught at Stanford
`
`17· ·until my job started at -- well, for the fall of '84 is
`
`18· ·my memory.· And then -- and then I went to PARC
`
`19· ·sometime -- my memory is around the turn of -- maybe
`
`20· ·January.· Maybe earlier.· Maybe earlier.
`
`21· · · · ·Q.· Okay.· So then I guess after PARC, that's when
`
`22· ·you went over to IBM, where you were --
`
`23· · · · ·A.· Yes.
`
`24· · · · ·Q.· -- close in time; right?
`
`25· · · · ·A.· Yeah, yeah, yeah.
`
`25
`
`
`
`·1· · · · ·Q.· I know you were at IBM for a while, and I seem
`
`·2· ·to have left there.· Would you summarize for me the main
`
`·3· ·projects or endeavors you worked on at IBM.
`
`·4· · · · ·A.· Well, there are three projects that I'm most
`
`·5· ·proud of at IBM.· And I got to be an IBM fellow, which
`
`·6· ·was quite an honor for me, and I probably recognize its
`
`·7· ·value more in retrospect.
`
`·8· · · · ·Q.· Congratulations.
`
`·9· · · · ·A.· Yeah.· It was great fun.· They treated -- you
`
`10· ·know.· But basically, there was this pointing device
`
`11· ·that became my calling card, and you see it on my
`
`12· ·collar, which is now called TrackPoint.· See?· There it
`
`13· ·is.· See?
`
`14· · · · · · ·(Simultaneous speakers)
`
`15· · · · · · ·(Discussion off the record)
`
`16· · · · · · ·THE WITNESS:· So anyway, I worked -- I went
`
`17· ·there to work on -- what I wanted to do is adaptive
`
`18· ·help.· I wanted to make that my Ph.D.· And I went to IBM
`
`19· ·because they were going to give me the equipment and the
`
`20· ·freedom to do research as I wanted to.· I had several
`
`21· ·ideas, but the one I wanted to do was making AI drive a
`
`22· ·help system.· So that became my Ph.D.
`
`23· · · · · · ·And what happened was that turned into
`
`24· ·SmartGuides in OS/2.· So it did get commercialized.· My
`
`25· ·boss told me he wasn't going to give me as big an award
`
`26
`
`
`
`·1· ·as I wanted at all because I picked an operating system
`
`·2· ·that was going to die.· They still -- but it still
`
`·3· ·shipped.· This is 25 years ago it went in, something.
`
`·4· · · · · · ·And believe it or not, it was two associates
`
`·5· ·with SmartGuides, which changes the way it helped,
`
`·6· ·depending on demonstrated performance and experience and
`
`·7· ·expertise.· So that ended up to be my Ph.D. at City
`
`·8· ·University of New York.
`
`·9· · · · · · ·But my side projects turned into things too.
`
`10· ·So one was I worked with some -- I was in the math
`
`11· ·department for a lot of that time.· And there were some
`
`12· ·people thinking about visualization -- I mean thinking
`
`13· ·about how memory went through to a computer.
`
`14· · · · · · ·And I made a visualization called the Memory
`
`15· ·Hierarchy, which you'll see is a paper in
`
`16· ·visualizations, kind of 1990, I think.· Should be in
`
`17· ·here somewhere.· And also -- there it is.· Maybe.· Yeah.
`
`18· ·And also as an algorithmic paper.
`
`19· · · · · · ·And the value of that was that it -- for
`
`20· ·all -- for operations on the power PC, it demonstrated
`
`21· ·how you could speed them up by 30 times by just how you
`
`22· ·filled with memory.· So that was a really exciting
`
`23· ·thing.
`
`24· · · · · · ·And my contribution was the visualization.
`
`25· ·There would be some mathematicians that were doing a lot
`
`27
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`
`
`·1· ·of the heavy lifting, but I did
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