UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
`HOPEWELL PHARMA VENTURES, INC., : IPR2023-00480
`Petitioner,
`: Patent 7,713,947
`:
`: IPR2023-00481
`: Patent 8,377,903
`
`v.
`MERCK SERONO, S.A.,
`Patent Owner.
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
`
`Remote and in-person deposition of
`Fred David Lublin, M.D.
`Boston, Massachusetts
`March 5, 2024
`8:08 a.m.
`
`Job No.: 522420
`Pages: 1 - 173
`Reported By: Alan H. Brock, RDR, CRR
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`Hopewell EX1061
`Hopewell v. Merck
`IPR2023-00481
`
`1
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`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
`HOPEWELL PHARMA VENTURES, INC., : IPR2023-00480
`Petitioner,
`: Patent 7,713,947
`:
`: IPR2023-00481
`: Patent 8,377,903
`
`v.
`MERCK SERONO, S.A.,
`Patent Owner.
`- - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
`
`Remote and in-person deposition of
`Fred David Lublin, M.D.
`Boston, Massachusetts
`March 5, 2024
`8:08 a.m.
`
`Job No.: 522420
`Pages: 1 - 173
`Reported By: Alan H. Brock, RDR, CRR
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`Hopewell EX1061
`Hopewell v. Merck
`IPR2023-00481
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`Transcript of Fred David Lublin, M.D.
`Conducted on March 5, 2024
`
`2
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` A P P E A R A N C E S
`ON BEHALF OF PETITIONER:
` STERNE KESSLER GOLDSTEIN & FOX PLLC
` ELDORA L. ELLISON, ESQ. (REMOTELY)
` OLGA A. PARTINGTON, ESQ. (REMOTELY)
` PRATIBHA KHANDURI, ESQ. (REMOTELY)
` MADELEINE C. BOND, ESQ.
` 1101 K Street NW, Tenth Floor
` Washington, D.C. 20005
` 202.371.2600
` eellison@sternekessler.com
` opartington@sternekessler.com
` pkhanduri@sternekessler.com
` mbond@sternekessler.com
`
`ON BEHALF OF PATENT OWNER:
` WILMER CUTLER PICKERING HALE AND DORR LLP
` EMILY R. WHELAN, ESQ.
` 60 State Street
` Boston, Massachusetts 02109
` 617.526.6000
` emily.whelan@wilmerhale.com
`
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`Transcript of Fred David Lublin, M.D.
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` WILMER CUTLER PICKERING HALE AND DORR LLP
` CINDY KAN, ESQ.
` 7 World Trade Center
` 250 Greenwich Street
` New York, New York 10007
` 212.230.8800
` cindy.kan@wilmerhale.com
`
`ALSO PRESENT:
` Sarah Leesman, Patent Agent (remotely)
` Willem de Weerd (remotely)
` Michael Safee, Technician
` Emil White, Technician (remotely)
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`Transcript of Fred David Lublin, M.D.
`Conducted on March 5, 2024
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` I N D E X
`
` EXAMINATIONS
`FRED DAVID LUBLIN, M.D.
` MS. ELLISON 6
` MS. WHELAN 167
` MS. ELLISON 170
`
` EXHIBITS MENTIONED
`001 132
`013 82
`018 75
`022 79
`031 103
`004 120
`005 116
`011 126
`031 123
`038 128
`051 12
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`Transcript of Fred David Lublin, M.D.
`Conducted on March 5, 2024
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`5
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` March 5, 2024 8:08 a.m.
` P R O C E E D I N G S
` THE TECHNICIAN: Thank you to everyone for
`attending this proceeding remotely, which we
`anticipate will continue to run smoothly.
` Please remember to speak slowly and do
`your best not to talk over one another.
` Please be aware that we're recording this
`proceeding for backup purposes. Any off-the-record
`discussions should be had away from the computer, and
`please remember to mute your mike for those
`conversations.
` Please have your video enabled to help the
`reporter identify who is speaking. If you are unable
`to connect with video and you're connecting via phone,
`we just ask that you identify yourself each time
`before speaking.
` We'll provide a complimentary unedited
`recording of the deposition with the purchase of a
`transcript. I apologize in advance for any technical-
`related interruptions. Thank you.
` * * *
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`Conducted on March 5, 2024
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`6
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` FRED DAVID LUBLIN, M.D.,
`being first duly sworn or affirmed to testify to the
`truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, was
`examined and testified as follows:
` MS. ELLISON: Good morning. We'll start
`with the roll call this morning. I am Eldora Ellison,
`from Sterne Kessler Goldstein & Fox, on behalf of
`petitioner Hopewell Pharma Ventures, Inc. With me
`today remotely are Olga Partington, Sarah Leesman, and
`Pratibha Khanduri, also of Sterne Kessler. And then
`in person today with the witness is Madeleine Bond,
`also from Sterne Kessler.
` Counsel will please introduce themselves
`and the team, I'd appreciate it.
` MS. WHELAN: Emily Whelan, of WilmerHale,
`for patent owner, Merck Serono SA, and for the
`witness, Dr. Lublin. With me is Cindy Kan, of
`WilmerHale, and remotely Willem de Weerd, of Merck
`KGaA.
` EXAMINATION
`BY MS. ELLISON:
` Q. Dr. Lublin, will you please state your full
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`Transcript of Fred David Lublin, M.D.
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`name and spell it for the record, please.
` A. Fred David Lublin, L-u-b-l-i-n.
` Q. And what is your address?
` A. 40 East 94th Street, No. 4L, New York, New
`York 10128.
` Q. Thank you. Dr. Lublin, have you been deposed
`before?
` A. I have.
` Q. Approximately how many times?
` A. At least ten.
` Q. And were any of those cases cases that
`involved patents?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Of the cases in which you've been deposed
`before, Dr. Lublin, how many of those cases involved
`patents?
` A. I believe three.
` Q. And of those cases in which you've been
`deposed that involve patents, who were the parties to
`those cases?
` A. One was Novartis. One was -- I'm blocking on
`the company. They make Ampera. I don't recall the
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`name of the company. And one was a company called
`Fast Forward.
` Q. And for the case involving Novartis, did you
`provide testimony on behalf of Novartis?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And on a high level, what was the subject
`matter of that patent case?
` A. It was a challenge to one of their patents on
`the drug fingolimod.
` Q. And for the second case that you mentioned,
`on whose part did you provide testimony?
` A. It was -- it wasn't as much a patent. It was
`an arbitration issue over who deserved what, and I did
`it for one of the parties. I'm just blocking on the
`name of the company.
` Q. Okay. And for the third case that you
`mentioned, on behalf of which party did you provide
`testimony?
` A. The adverse party was Biogen. It was their
`patent, and I was on the other side.
` Q. Do you recall the name of the company for
`whom you provided testimony in the Biogen case?
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` A. Yes, Forward Pharma.
` Q. Thank you. And at a high level, what was the
`subject matter of the Biogen versus Forward Pharma
`case?
` A. I think it was priority.
` Q. And what was the technical subject matter of
`the case?
` A. I'm sorry, I couldn't hear you.
` Q. What was the technical subject matter in that
`case?
` A. I don't recall.
` Q. Have you provided testimony -- other than for
`the proceeding that we're here for today, have you
`provided testimony in any other proceedings in front
`of the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office?
` A. I believe just the ones I mentioned to you.
`Those are the only ones I can recall.
` Q. Dr. Lublin, for the three cases that you
`mentioned, were all of those cases cases that were in
`front of the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office?
` A. No.
` Q. Of the three cases that you mentioned,
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`Dr. Lublin, which ones were in front of the U.S.
`Patent and Trademark Office?
` A. I believe the Novartis -- part of the
`Novartis was.
` Q. Thank you. So Dr. Lublin, do you understand
`that you have provided testimony in two inter partes
`review proceedings?
` A. Yes.
` Q. So I may refer to these proceedings by the
`abbreviations IPR or IPRs. Do you understand that?
` A. Sure.
` Q. And if I say "this case," will you understand
`I'm referring to both IPR proceedings unless I
`specifically state otherwise?
` A. Okay.
` Q. Dr. Lublin, do you understand that you're
`here under oath and under penalty of perjury?
` A. I do.
` Q. And Dr. Lublin, do you understand that you're
`here to testify truthfully and accurately today?
` A. I do.
` Q. Dr. Lublin, is there any reason that you
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`cannot testify truthfully and accurately today?
` A. No.
` Q. Dr. Lublin, are you taking any medications
`that might preclude you from testifying truthfully and
`accurately today?
` A. No.
` Q. Dr. Lublin, throughout the course of today's
`deposition, if you do not understand the meaning of
`any words or phrases that I use, please let me know,
`and I will try my best to clarify my question. Okay?
` A. Sure.
` Q. And Dr. Lublin, we will take breaks
`reasonably often. And if you need a break, please let
`me know. But I would ask that you answer any pending
`question before we break. Okay?
` A. Okay.
` Q. Dr. Lublin, as you can tell, there's a court
`reporter who is transcribing what we are saying to
`each other today, so I will do my best not to talk
`over you, and I ask that you also do your best not to
`talk over me. Okay?
` A. Sure.
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`12
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` And the name of the company that I
`couldn't remember was Acorda.
` Q. Thank you. Also, Dr. Lublin, because there
`is a court reporter transcribing today's deposition,
`it's important that the answers to your questions,
`it's important that they be vocal answers as opposed
`to -- oral answers as opposed to "uh-huh" or shaking
`your head or something. Understood?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Finally, under the rules of the Patent and
`Trademark Office, I'm required to instruct you that
`you are not permitted to speak with your counsel
`during today's cross-examination regarding the
`substance of your testimony. Do you understand that?
` A. I do.
` Q. And do you agree to abide by that rule?
` A. I do.
` Q. Did you bring anything with you to today's
`deposition, like notes or files or anything like that?
` A. The only thing I have here with me are my
`declarations.
` Q. And you're referring to your declarations
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`that have been marked as Exhibit -- let me start that
`again. You're referring to your declarations that
`have been marked as Exhibits 2051 in each of the two
`IPRs; correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. Thank you. Whose computer are you using for
`today's remote deposition?
` A. No idea.
` Q. Was it provided to you by counsel?
` A. I don't know whose computer this is.
` Q. Fair enough. Other than the video platform
`that we're speaking on right now for this deposition,
`do you have any other computer programs open on the
`computer that is in front of you?
` A. Not that I'm aware of.
` Q. Thank you. And you mentioned that you have
`copies of your declarations. Are those clean copies
`of your declarations?
` A. Yes.
` Q. So there are no notes or highlighting or
`anything like that; correct?
` A. That's correct.
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` Q. Also, do you currently have access to any
`kind of electronic device other than the computer
`that's in front of you -- for example, a phone or an
`Apple Watch or anything like that?
` A. There's a cell phone in my back pocket.
` Q. I'm going to ask that during today's
`deposition that you don't have access to that cell
`phone regarding -- anything regarding the substance of
`this deposition. Okay?
` A. That's fine.
` Q. What did you do to prepare for today's
`deposition, Dr. Lublin?
` A. I read over my declarations, over -- reviewed
`some of the documents that are listed, and met with
`counsel.
` Q. And when did you meet with counsel?
` A. I met with counsel for the deposition
`remotely a little over a week ago, and then Sunday and
`Monday of this week.
` Q. And with whom did you meet, when you say you
`met with counsel?
` A. Ms. Kan and Ms. Whelan. Oh, and Mr. Geng.
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` Q. Thank you. And for how long did you meet
`with counsel in preparation for today's deposition?
` A. Those were full-day meetings, mostly.
` Q. So you met approximately for three full days;
`is that correct?
` A. Maybe two and three quarters. The first day
`wasn't a full day.
` Q. Okay. And in your preparation for today's
`deposition, did you consider any documents that are
`not mentioned in your declaration?
` A. No.
` Q. Did you speak with anyone other than counsel
`regarding the substance of your deposition today?
` A. No.
` Q. When were you first approached regarding the
`possibility of providing testimony in these IPRs,
`Dr. Lublin?
` MS. WHELAN: I'm just going to object and
`caution you not to reveal the substance of any
`communications with attorneys, but you may answer a
`date if you can.
` A. I don't recall.
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` Q. And approximately when were you first
`approached regarding possibly providing testimony in
`these IPRs, Doctor?
` A. Sometime in 2023, but I don't know the exact
`date.
` Q. Was it the summer of 2023?
` A. I can't be more specific.
` Q. Was it before the summer of 2023?
` A. Again, I can't be more specific.
` Q. Was it December of 2023?
` MS. WHELAN: Object to form.
` A. I just don't recall when.
` Q. So you can't tell me whether you were first
`approached to provide testimony in these IPRs in
`December of 2023 versus January of 2023? Is that your
`testimony, Dr. Lublin?
` MS. WHELAN: Object to form.
` A. My testimony is I don't recall when I was
`approached to discuss these depositions.
` Q. So I'm not asking you for an exact date. I'm
`asking for an approximate time. So to the best of
`your approximation, Dr. Lublin, are you unable to
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`recall whether you were approached in December of 2023
`versus January of 2023?
` A. Somewhere in between.
` Q. So you already have copies of Exhibit 2051 in
`front of you.
` MS. ELLISON: Emil, will you provide
`copies in the chat for anyone who may need them,
`please.
` THE TECHNICIAN: Stand by.
` MS. BOND: May I inspect those copies as
`we bring them up?
` Q. Do you have your declarations in front of
`you, Dr. Lublin, or is my colleague --
` A. Your colleague's reviewing them.
` Q. Just let me know when you have them back.
` MS. ELLISON: Emil, do you have those
`exhibits? I don't see them in the chat -- Exhibit
`2051.
` THE TECHNICIAN: I will create a folder in
`the chat now for all marked exhibits.
` MS. ELLISON: Thank you.
` Q. Dr. Lublin, do you have your declarations
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`back in front of you yet?
` A. Not yet.
` MS. ELLISON: Madeleine, if you could hand
`those back to Dr. Lublin.
` A. Okay.
` Q. And you have both of your declarations in
`front of you; correct, Dr. Lublin?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Thank you. So Dr. Lublin, for the
`declaration that has been provided as Exhibit 2051 in
`IPR case 2023-00480, could you please turn to Page
`137. Is that your signature that appears on Page 137.
`Of the declaration provided as Exhibit 2051?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And you signed and dated that declaration on
`December 21st, 2023; correct, Dr. Lublin?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. If you could look at the other declaration,
`Dr. Lublin, which is Exhibit 2051 in IPR2023-00481.
`If you could please turn to Page 136.
` A. Okay.
` Q. Is that your signature that appears on Page
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`136 of Exhibit 2051 in the 2023-00481 IPR?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And you signed and dated this declaration on
`December 21st, 2023; correct, Dr. Lublin?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. For today's discussion, we're mostly going to
`use Exhibit 2051 from IPR No. 2023-00480. I may refer
`to the other one if needed, or may refer to the other
`one if needed as well.
` Given the overlapping exhibits and the
`overlap in your testimony in these two IPRs, my
`questions will apply to both IPRs unless you or I
`specifically indicate otherwise. Is that okay?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Thank you. Do you know who else has provided
`testimony in this case in support of Merck?
` A. I know a pharmacologist, Dr. Meibohm, has.
` Q. Are you aware of any other Merck witnesses in
`these IPRs?
` A. I'm not.
` Q. Do you know who Dr. Nicholas Bodor is?
` A. I don't know him.
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` Q. Do you know who he is?
` A. I believe he's on the patent that's part of
`this proceeding.
` Q. Were you aware of Dr. Nicholas Bodor before
`you became involved in these IPRs?
` A. No.
` Q. Are you familiar with Dr. Bodor's
`professional background?
` A. No.
` Q. Are you familiar with Dr. Bodor's reputation
`in the field?
` A. No.
` Q. You mentioned Dr. Bernd Meibohm; correct?
` A. Correct.
` Q. That's B-e-r-n-d M-e-i-b-o-h-m; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. When did you first learn of Dr. Meibohm?
` A. Sometime last year.
` Q. Was that before you were retained to provide
`testimony in these IPRs?
` A. No.
` Q. Did you first learn of Dr. May in the context
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`of doing your work on these IPRs?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Have you ever met Dr. May?
` A. No.
` Q. Have you ever communicated with Dr. May?
` A. No.
` Q. Did Dr. Meibohm advise you when you were
`preparing your declaration?
` A. No.
` Q. I understand that your current rate for
`working on this IPR is $900 per hour; is that correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. And are you being compensated today in the
`amount of $9,000 for your testimony today?
` MS. WHELAN: Object to form.
` A. I'm being paid $9,000 today for my time out
`of office.
` Q. And approximately how much have you billed in
`this case so far for your time on these IPRs,
`Dr. Lublin?
` A. Well, I haven't billed all of it.
` Q. Okay. Approximately how much time have you
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`Transcript of Fred David Lublin, M.D.
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`spent working on these IPRs, Dr. Lublin, to date?
` A. Probably about 30 hours.
` Q. Other than for your work in connection with
`these IPRs, have you ever received any compensation
`from Merck for anything else?
` A. There are other matters besides the IPRs.
` Q. Are you saying you are a consultant to Merck
`in other matters, other IPRs; correct?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Are those other legal matters?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Have you provided testimony in those other
`matters, Dr. Lublin?
` A. No.
` Q. Approximately how many other matters, other
`than the IPRs, are you working on for Merck?
` A. At least one other.
` Q. Is that a patent case, Dr. Lublin?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Does it relate to multiple sclerosis?
` A. Yes.
` Q. Which drug is involved in that other matter?
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` MS. WHELAN: I'm just going to object. I
`think -- I don't think we should get into the
`substance of other legal matters, other than what we
`have at hand.
` MS. ELLISON: So Ms. Whelan, as you
`recall, the objections are intended to be limited to
`one-word objections in IPRs.
` MS. WHELAN: Right. I'm objecting --
` MS. ELLISON: And I believe it's fair game
`for us to have an understanding of the witness's
`relationship with Merck. And this was not disclosed
`in his declaration. And so I think it's fair game for
`us to have an understanding of the witness's
`relationship with Merck.
` Q. Dr. Lublin, I'll ask you this question: Does
`this other matter in which you are working with Merck,
`does it involve the drug cladribine?
` MS. WHELAN: I will allow you to answer
`yes or no to that.
` A. Yes.
` Q. So I asked you earlier whether you have
`received compensation from Merck on any matters other
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`Transcript of Fred David Lublin, M.D.
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`than these IPRs. The next question is: Have you
`received any compensation from any entities related to
`Merck in matters other than these IPRs?
` A. Yes.
` Q. And which entity was that?
` A. EMD Serono -- and possibly Merck as well;
`some speaking I did in 2022.
` Q. And when you say the speaking that you did in
`2022, what was the subject matter of that speaking?
` A. It was -- actually, it was a debate, and it
`related to the clinical course of multiple sclerosis.
` Q. You mentioned having received compensation
`from EMD Serono. What was the reason that you
`received compensation from EMD Serono?
` A. It was the same.
` Q. The same as what?
` A. It was -- there were two debates at different
`times, and one was in Europe, one was in the United
`States, but the topic was the same.
` Q. You're currently the director of the Corrine
`Goldsmith Dickinson Center for Multiple Sclerosis at
`the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai Hospital;
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`correct?
` A. That's correct.
` Q. Has the Corrine Goldsmith Dickinson Center
`for Multiple Sclerosis ever received any compensation
`from Merck or an entity related to Merck?
` MS. WHELAN: Object to form.
` A. Yes, I believe they provided some funds to
`the institution to support fellowships.
` Q. Approximately how much were those funds?
` A. I'm going to say approximately 125,000.
` Q. And when was that?
` A. Last year.
` Q. In the debate that you mentioned -- strike
`that.
` In the debates that you mentioned, who
`were the parties to the debate?
` A. I was debating another MS specialization
`neurologist by the name of Gavin Giovannoni.
` Q. Could you spell that, please?
` A. Oh, boy. I can spell Gavin.
`G-i-o-v-a-n-n-o-v-i, or something close to that.
` Q. Thank you.
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` A. I guess o-n-i.
` Q. Was that debate something that was open to
`the public?
` A. It was open to neurologists attending the
`meetings where it was held.
` Q. What were the meetings where it was held?
` A. One was the European Charcot Foundation,
`which was held in Italy. And one was the American
`Academy of Neurology meeting that was held in the
`United States, here in Boston.
` Q. Thank you. You said the European, you say
`Charcot?
` A. Charcot.
` Q. Thank you. What was the topic of the debate?
` A. We were debating whether multiple sclerosis
`was progressive from onset.
` Q. And what was your viewpoint on that?
` A. That it was not.
` Q. And why was it your view that it's not
`progressive from onset?
` A. Because my view is that not all patients with
`multiple sclerosis have a progressive form of the
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`illness. It's too variable a disease.
` Q. If not all patients have a progressive form
`from onset, then what form of MS do they have?
` A. Relapsing-remitting.
` Q. If you don't mind, explain the difference to
`me, the difference between relapsing-remitting and
`progressive forms of MS?
` A. So relapsing-remitting is the commonest form
`of MS, and it's the one that most people start with.
`And that's having an acute attack of something
`involving the central nervous system. It lasts for
`days to weeks, and then it improves anywhere from zero
`to 100 percent. But wherever it stops at, it stays
`that way until the next attack.
` The next attack can occur weeks, months,
`years, or decades later, sometimes even never. And
`that's what relapsing-remitting is.
` Progressive MS is where, independent of
`those relapses, there's gradual worsening over time.
` Q. So when you say a relapse, what do you mean?
`What is a relapse?
` A. The terms interchangeably are relapse,
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`exacerbation, or attack. It's an acute onset of
`something. It could be loss of vision in one eye. It
`could be numbness, tingling, difficulty walking,
`slurred speech, double vision. There's many, many
`ways that it could present.
` Q. What are some of the other ways?
` A. Bladder dysfunction, cognitive dysfunction.
`That covers most of it.
` Q. What causes relapses?
` MS. WHELAN: Object to form.
` A. We don't know what causes most of them.
`There's an increased risk of relapse after viral
`infections, but most relapses aren't associated with
`an infection. And there's an increased risk of
`relapse in the three months after a woman delivers a
`baby. But we don't know what the underlying cause is
`of why it suddenly happens.
` Q. How are relapses identified?
` A. First with symptoms. The patient complains
`of something. And then usually they're seen and
`examined.
` Q. Examined for what?
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` A. It's a neurological examination, so you
`examine the whole nervous system.
` Q. And how do you do that?
` MS. WHELAN: Object to form.
` A. You do a neurological examination.
` Q. What is involved in doing a neurological
`examination of a patient who may have experienced a
`relapse?
` A. So a neurological examination involves
`examining of all brain functions, all spinal cord
`functions, and all the functions of the peripheral
`nerves and where they attach to muscles.
` Q. How are brain functions examined?
` MS. WHELAN: Object to form.
` Q. How are brain functions examined in doing a
`neurological examination of an MS patient?
` MS. WHELAN: Object to form.
` A. I could show you. I'm not sure I could tell
`you how it's done. When we teach these, we teach it
`by showing people how it's done.
` Q. Can you show me today?
` A. Sure, if you want to put a camera on someone
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`who's willing to have me examine them neurologically.
` Q. Let's give it a try.
` MS. ELLISON: Madeleine, you can be our
`subject today. I don't know what's involved, so let's
`give it a try.
` MS. WHELAN: I'm just going to object to
`this. This is not a verbal question and answer.
` Q. Dr. Lublin, perhaps you can describe what
`you're doing while you do it. If you could give us an
`indication of how you would -- give us your best
`explanation for how you would conduct a neurological
`exam of a patient, I would appreciate your answering
`the question.
` MS. WHELAN: And I'm objecting to the
`question and answer for the form.
` Q. Please continue, Doctor.
` THE WITNESS: First we would do a
`cognitive assessment. So tell me today's date.
` MS. BOND: March 5th, 2024.
` THE WITNESS: And where are we?
` MS. BOND: We're in Boston, WilmerHale.
` THE WITNESS: And tell me something that's
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`been going on in the news.
` MS. BOND: Oh, goodness. This is going to
`be embarrassing. There's a storm going on in the
`Sierra mountains that is affecting a lot of people
`recently. It's taking a lot of lines out.
` THE WITNESS: Anything else?
` MS. BOND: There's always a lot going on
`politically, but it's probably best not to get into.
` THE WITNESS: What do you call this?
` MS. BOND: A thumb.
` THE WITNESS: And this?
` MS. BOND: A mouth.
` THE WITNESS: I want you to remember three
`words for me: "river," "baseball," and "street."
` MS. BOND: "Street"?
` THE WITNESS: "Street." Can you say
`those?
` MS. BOND: "River," "baseball," "street."
` THE WITNESS: Good. Keep them in mind.
`And if I remember, I'll ask you to repeat them.
` Spell the word "world" for me backwards.
` MS. BOND: D-l-r-o-w.
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` THE WITNESS: Good.
` Now, I want you to look right here at me.
`Tell me which hand it is, left, right, or both?
` MS. BOND: Your right or my right? Both.
` THE WITNESS: Now.
` MS. BOND: My left or right.
` THE WITNESS: Good. Look right here.
`Look way over here. Look way over here. Look up.
`Down. Do you feel the same on both sides?
` MS. BOND: Yes.
` THE WITNESS: The same? Show me your
`teeth. Stick your tongue out. Spread your fingers
`apart. Hard, hard, hard. Harder, harder.
`
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