UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` _________________
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
`APPLE INC., :
` Petitioner, :
`v. : Case IPR2023-00471
` : Patent No. 6,844,990
`IMMERVISION, INC.,
` :
` Patent Owner.
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` Videotaped Deposition of DAVID KESSLER, Ph.D.
` CONDUCTED VIRTUALLY
` Thursday, February 15, 2024
` 8:55 a.m.
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` Job No.: 524618
` Pages: 1 - 74
` Reported By: Brooklyn E. Schweitzer, RPR, CRR
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` _________________
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
`APPLE INC., :
` Petitioner, :
`v. : Case IPR2023-00471
` : Patent No. 6,844,990
`IMMERVISION, INC.,
` :
` Patent Owner.
` - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x
` Videotaped Deposition of DAVID KESSLER, Ph.D.
` CONDUCTED VIRTUALLY
` Thursday, February 15, 2024
` 8:55 a.m.
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` Job No.: 524618
` Pages: 1 - 74
` Reported By: Brooklyn E. Schweitzer, RPR, CRR
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`Transcript of David Kessler, Ph.D.
`Conducted on February 15, 2024
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`2
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` Videotaped Deposition of DAVID KESSLER,
`Ph.D., conducted virtually.
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` *** ALL PARTIES ATTENDED REMOTELY. ***
`
` Pursuant to Notice, before Brooklyn E.
`Schweitzer, Registered Professional Reporter,
`Certified Realtime Reporter, and Notary Public in
`and for the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.
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`Transcript of David Kessler, Ph.D.
`Conducted on February 15, 2024
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`3
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` A P P E A R A N C E S
`
` ON BEHALF OF THE PETITIONER:
` STEPHEN E. MURRAY, ESQUIRE
` PANITCH SCHWARZE BELISARIO & NADEL LLP
` Two Commerce Square
` 2001 Market Street, Suite 2800
` Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19103
` (215) 965-1330
`
` ON BEHALF OF THE PATENT OWNER:
` KARAN JHURANI, ESQUIRE
` FISH & RICHARDSON P.C.
` 60 South Sixth Street, Suite 3200
` Minneapolis, MN 55402
`
`Also Present: Robert Leonard, Videographer
` Micah Hardin, Technician
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`Transcript of David Kessler, Ph.D.
`Conducted on February 15, 2024
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`4
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` C O N T E N T S
`EXAMINATION PAGE
` By Mr. Murray 6
`
` E X H I B I T S
`EXHIBIT PAGE
`Kessler 1 SECOND DECLARATION OF
` DR. DAVID KESSLER, Ph.D. 10
`Kessler 2 U.S. Patent 6,865,028 B2 18
`Kessler 3 Patent Number: 5,686,957 27
`Kessler 4 U.S. Patent 4,364,643 30
`Kessler 5 U.S. Patent 3,953,111 35
`Kessler 6 Modern Lens Design, a Resource
` Manual, Excerpt 41
`Kessler 7 European Patent Application
` EP 1 028 389 A2 54
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`Transcript of David Kessler, Ph.D.
`Conducted on February 15, 2024
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`5
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` P R O C E E D I N G S
` VIDEOGRAPHER: Here begins Video File
`No. 1 in the video deposition of David Kessler,
`Ph.D., in the matter of Apple, Inc., versus
`ImmerVision, Inc., in the United States Patent and
`Trademark Office, Case No. IPR2023-00471.
` Today's date is February 15th, 2024. Time
`on my video monitor is 8:54 -- 8:55 a.m. Eastern
`Time. My name is Robert Leonard. I'm the video
`specialist. I represent Planet Depos.
` This deposition is being taken via Zoom
`online. Will counsel please identify themselves
`verbally and state whom they represent.
` MR. MURRAY: Good morning. It's Stephen
`Murray, Panitch Schwarze, representing patent
`owner.
` MR. JHURANI: Good morning. My name is
`Karan Jhurani. I'm with Fish & Richardson
`appearing today on behalf of petitioner, Apple
`Incorporated.
` VIDEOGRAPHER: The court reporter today is
`Brooklyn Schweitzer. She also represents Planet
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`Transcript of David Kessler, Ph.D.
`Conducted on February 15, 2024
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`6
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`Depos. Will the court reporter please swear in
`the witness.
` DAVID KESSLER, Ph.D.,
` was called, and having been duly sworn,
` testified as follows:
` EXAMINATION
`BY MR. MURRAY:
` Q Good morning, Dr. Kessler.
` A Good morning.
` Q Do you recall being deposed last October
`in connection with an IPR for another ImmerVision
`patent?
` A Yes.
` Q And since that deposition, have you been
`deposed in any other cases?
` A No.
` Q Have you testified in any other cases
`since then?
` A Testified? No.
` Q I'm just going to quickly just go over the
`ground rules we have from the last deposition.
` When I ask you questions, please answer
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`Transcript of David Kessler, Ph.D.
`Conducted on February 15, 2024
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`7
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`out loud. That's for the benefit of our court
`reporter as she cannot take down head nods or
`shaking or anything of that nature.
` If you don't understand a question, could
`you please ask me to rephrase it?
` A Okay.
` Q Okay. If you don't ask me to rephrase it,
`I will assume that you have understood the
`question. Is that fair?
` A Okay.
` Q All right. Is there any reason you can't
`give your full, fair, and honest testimony today?
` A No.
` Q Okay. And do you understand that the oath
`you just took is the same as you would in a court
`of law?
` A Could you repeat it slowly?
` Q Yeah, sorry. Sorry. Do you understand
`that the oath you just took is the same that you
`would take in a court of law?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. And during the testimony, your
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`Transcript of David Kessler, Ph.D.
`Conducted on February 15, 2024
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`8
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`attorney may object for the record, but unless he
`instructs you not to answer, you must answer. Is
`that okay?
` A Yes.
` Q All right. And if you need a break,
`please let me know. We will try to take a break
`every hour or so. I just ask that if you ask for
`a break, that a question not be pending. Is that
`okay?
` A Okay.
` Q All right. What is an image disk?
` A What is an imaging disk?
` Q Image disk?
` A Image disk. Image disk, I would say in
`optics it would be a round image.
` Q Okay. What is the image plane of an
`objective lens?
` A It is the plane where the image will be.
`Or is.
` Q All right. In a digital camera, for
`example, the image sensor is placed at the image
`plane; is that right?
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` A Yes.
` Q Why is that?
` A That's where the image is clear and
`focused. That's where you put your sensor.
` Q And similarly in old cameras that used
`film, film would be placed at the image plane; is
`that right?
` A Yes.
` Q And the image plane will exist regardless
`of whether there's an image sensor, correct?
` MR. JHURANI: Objection to form.
` A It's a very general question. In cameras,
`for example, or lenses for cameras, that's true.
`Some lenses don't have an image plane. Afocal
`lenses do not have an image plane. So can have an
`image plane, can be everywhere.
` Q Okay. That's a -- that's a fair point.
`So -- but in a digital camera, as you state as an
`example, the image plane will exist regardless of
`whether the image sensor is present?
` A Yeah.
` Q Okay.
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`Transcript of David Kessler, Ph.D.
`Conducted on February 15, 2024
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`10
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` MR. MURRAY: Micah, could you pull up
`Exhibit 1023 and mark it as Deposition Exhibit 1,
`please?
` TECHNICIAN: Stand by.
` (Kessler 1 was marked for identification
`and is attached to the transcript.)
` TECHNICIAN: And, Counsel, do you want
`that labeled Deposition Exhibit 1, or is Kessler 1
`okay?
` MR. MURRAY: Kessler 1's fine.
` TECHNICIAN: Okay.
` MR. MURRAY: Thank you.
` MR. JHURANI: Counsel, while that's coming
`up, I'll just note that, I believe, and
`Dr. Kessler can correct me if I'm wrong, he has
`paper copies unmarked that he had responding to
`this declaration and some of the other exhibits.
` So is it fine for him to refer to those as
`well as you're asking questions? I just want to
`make sure that you're aware of that.
` MR. MURRAY: Yeah, that's fine if he's
`looking at it, if he could just let us know where
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`Conducted on February 15, 2024
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`11
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`he's looking so we can all be looking at the same
`thing.
` THE WITNESS: Okay.
`BY MR. MURRAY:
` Q Okay. So hopefully you see on your screen
`that's been marked as Kessler 1. Do you see that,
`Doctor?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. And do you recognize this document?
` A Yeah. Looks like my second declaration.
` Q Okay. Can we turn to Page 42, please?
` Okay. Is that your signature?
` A Yes.
` Q And this declaration relates to U.S.
`Patent No. 6,844,990; is that right?
` A Yes.
` Q And is it all right if I refer to that as
`the '990 patent?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. And is it all right if I refer to
`this document, Kessler 1, as your second
`declaration?
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`12
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` A Yes.
` Q Okay. Did you draft this second
`declaration yourself?
` A Yes, with help.
` Q What do you mean by with help?
` A In mostly through stuff from counselor.
` Q Okay. Did you form the conclusions set
`out in your second declaration independently?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. So if we could turn to Paragraph 72
`of your declaration. Starts on Page 30.
` Okay. In this paragraph, you give some
`examples where an image sensor is sized so it's
`diagonal is the same image of the image circle's
`diameter; is that correct?
` A Right.
` Q Is image circle the same thing as image
`disk?
` A We don't really use the term image disk,
`but the -- if you refer to the yellow round image
`which represents the image of the panoramic lens,
`then if you call it image disk, fine with me.
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` Q Okay. So you would prefer to call it
`image circle?
` A Yeah.
` Q Okay. In each of these options shown at
`the top of Page 31, portions of the image circle
`do not fall on any pixel of the image sensor; is
`that correct?
` A Yes.
` MR. JHURANI: Objection to form.
` Q So these areas of the image circle in A,
`B, and C don't -- withdrawn.
` So these portions of the image circle
`which don't fall on the image sensor will not be
`captured; is that correct?
` A Yes.
` Q And at the bottom of that Paragraph 72,
`you note that each of the options allows using all
`or most pixels of the image sensor; is that
`correct?
` A Yeah, the options. Yes.
` Q And just to be clear, options meaning A,
`B, and C at the top of the page?
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` A Right.
` Q Okay. In your personal experience, have
`you ever designed any optical systems using
`fisheye lenses?
` A Yes.
` Q What types of systems have you designed in
`that fashion?
` A Okay. The term fisheye lens refers to a
`lens which has a very large field of view, and
`where does the fisheye start? It's 60 degrees or
`80 degrees semifield. It's kind of smooth. It's
`kind of not really well defined.
` So I've done an optical system with very
`large field, which some people may call fisheye
`lenses.
` Q Did you actually design the lens yourself
`in those situations?
` A In one case, yes. In other cases, I
`analyzed others.
` Q Let's talk about the case where you
`designed the actual lens. Did you actually put
`the system together with the image sensor?
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`Transcript of David Kessler, Ph.D.
`Conducted on February 15, 2024
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`15
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` A In this case, I had a preferred sensor.
` Q And in that -- I'm sorry?
` A The customer had a preferred sensor, and I
`designed with the sensor in mind.
` Q Do you recall what the field of view was
`for that particular lens?
` A Maybe plus/minus 50 or 60 degrees.
` Q And when the system was assembled, did the
`image circle provided by that lens fall on a
`sensor according to any of the Options A, B, or C
`at the top of the Page 31 of your second
`declaration?
` A Yeah. I was -- like, Option B, which is
`the most common one.
` Q Is that the same for other systems that
`you've analyzed that had very large field of view
`lenses?
` A Yeah. Most large field lenses had radial,
`round image, and the most common sensors are
`rectangular sensors with aspect ratios. Used to
`be 4 by 3, the old ones, like in the movies. Now
`it's mostly 16 by 9, but they're rectangular.
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`Transcript of David Kessler, Ph.D.
`Conducted on February 15, 2024
`
`16
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` So the situation shown on the second -- on
`Option B is, I would say, the most common.
` Q All right. If we could go down to
`Paragraph 74 and 75, which are on Page 32.
` Do you see those paragraphs?
` A Yeah.
` Q Okay. And here, is it fair to say you're
`seeking to discredit Mr. Munro's assertion that
`underfilling of image sensors is another
`possibility for image capture?
` MR. JHURANI: Objection; form.
` A Could you repeat the question?
` Q So in Paragraphs 74 and 75 of --
` A Yes.
` Q -- your declaration --
` A Yeah.
` Q -- are you here trying to discredit
`Mr. Munro's assertion that underfilling of image
`sensors is another possibility for image capture?
` MR. JHURANI: Objection to form.
` A I don't think I'm trying to discredit
`anything. I -- I understand this figure is --
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`Transcript of David Kessler, Ph.D.
`Conducted on February 15, 2024
`
`17
`
`Munro, you'll witness, said in his deposition has
`nothing to do with the sensor. It's just -- the
`square is just showing that he deflected image and
`things like that. It's not related to the sensor.
` Q Okay. But do you agree that there are
`applications where underfilling of the image
`sensor and capturing the whole image circle are
`desirable?
` A Few. I designed for those two, actually,
`and yeah, they are -- they are there, but they are
`usually not in the domain of panoramic or fisheye
`lenses.
` Q So you say they're not in the domain of
`panoramic or fisheye lenses.
` A Mm-hmm.
` Q What domain would they be in?
` A Well, this year I designed a system for
`eye surgery, for retina surgery, in which it was
`important to use the whole disk, the whole, what
`you call the image disk. Okay? And the loss of
`pixels was secondary. So, yeah, there are cases.
` Q So there are cases, but you would say they
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`18
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`don't apply to fisheye lenses?
` A I'd say I'm not aware and I have not had
`in my experience the situation. It's a whole disk
`is outside of the common domain. The common
`domain is that the detector, the sensor is
`circumscribed within the image.
` MR. MURRAY: Okay. Micah, can you pull up
`what's marked as Kessler 2, the document U.S.
`6865028?
` TECHNICIAN: Stand by.
` (Kessler 2 was marked for identification
`and is attached to the transcript.)
` MR. MURRAY: Thank you.
`BY MR. MURRAY:
` Q And can you see that, Dr. Kessler?
` A Could be larger, but -- Christopher --
` MR. JHURANI: Counsel, is this an exhibit
`in the record of this proceeding?
` MR. MURRAY: It is not.
` THE WITNESS: So do you want me to opine
`on this?
`BY MR. MURRAY:
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`Transcript of David Kessler, Ph.D.
`Conducted on February 15, 2024
`
`19
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` Q I just want to make sure first that you
`can see the screen. That's all.
` A Yeah. Right now I can see better, yeah.
` Q Okay. Do you recognize this document?
` A No.
` Q All right. For the record, this is U.S.
`Patent No. 6,685,028. This is Kessler 2.
` A You mean it's my exhibit?
` Q It's -- Kessler 2 is just an exhibit for
`the deposition.
` Okay. Can we go to the second page? And
`particularly, do you see Figure 2, Dr. Kessler?
` A Figure 2, yes. Yes.
` Q Okay. Does this look familiar at all?
` A Not really. I don't recall that.
` Q Could we go back to Kessler 1 briefly?
` You see in Paragraph 74, there's a similar
`image in your declaration, correct?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. That image comes from the '990
`patent?
` A Yeah, I think so.
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`Conducted on February 15, 2024
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`20
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` Q And this is the image where you point out
`that dark edges do not represent the image sensor,
`correct?
` MR. JHURANI: Objection to form; misstates
`testimony.
` A I -- I actually said I don't think -- and
`I think it was confirmed by your expert -- that
`the square represents a sensor.
` Q Okay. Can we go back to Kessler 2 now?
`If we could go to Page 11 of the document, and if
`we go down the text in Column 1 starting around
`line 30 --
` MR. JHURANI: Counsel -- so we -- since we
`don't have this document, can you provide it to us
`since it's not part of the record and not
`something that we have in front of us?
` MR. MURRAY: Yeah. Micah -- Micah, can
`we -- I think you guys can --
` TECHNICIAN: Drop it in the chat?
` MR. MURRAY: Yeah. Thank you.
` TECHNICIAN: It's in the chat.
` MR. JHURANI: Okay. I was able to access
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`Transcript of David Kessler, Ph.D.
`Conducted on February 15, 2024
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`21
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`it. Dr. Kessler, were you able to access it as
`well?
` THE WITNESS: I didn't try. I'm reading
`what's here on the screen.
` Let's see. Should I open the chat? Let's
`see.
` Okay. I opened it.
`BY MR. MURRAY:
` Q All right. So in Column 1 starting at
`line 30, do you see where it says Figure 2
`schematically represents the appearance of a
`Panoramic Image 4 projected onto --
` A Which line is that?
` Q I'm sorry. It starts around line 30. It
`starts Figure 2 schematically.
` A Line 30?
` Q In Column 1.
` A You're talking about the limited
`resolution of the image sensor which is generated
`much slower -- is that --
` Q No, the column on the left. Column 1.
` A Okay.
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`Transcript of David Kessler, Ph.D.
`Conducted on February 15, 2024
`
`22
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` Q It starts Figure 2.
` A Okay. Appearance -- okay.
` Q Do you see it says --
` A Yeah.
` Q -- schematically represents the appearance
`of a Panoramic Image 4 --
` A Okay.
` Q -- projected onto a digital image
`Sensor 3 --
` A Yeah, I see that. I see that.
` Q And this also talks about the image sensor
`as rectangular in shape?
` A Yes.
` Q And it says the entire image on the
`rectangular image sensor -- this is down around
`line 40. The entire image on the rectangular
`image sensor therefore has dark edges. It will be
`removed when digitally processed subsequently.
` A Okay. Okay.
` Q So would you agree that Figure 32 shows an
`example of underfilling of an image sensor?
` A Yeah.
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`Transcript of David Kessler, Ph.D.
`Conducted on February 15, 2024
`
`23
`
` MR. JHURANI: Objection; scope.
`Objection; scope, form.
` A Yeah.
` Q And you also -- in your original
`declaration, you cite a reference named Baker,
`correct?
` A Would you repeat the question?
` Q In your original declaration, you cite to
`a reference called Baker?
` A Right.
` Q Okay. And Baker is another example where
`the full image circle should be captured on the
`image sensor, correct?
` A Actually, I don't recall. I'd have to go
`and look what he did. I am very familiar with
`Baker, but I don't remember which figure you're
`talking about.
` MR. MURRAY: Can we go back to Kessler 1,
`Micah, which is your second declaration? And if
`we go to Paragraph 76.
` Q And in this paragraph, you mention Baker
`teaches edge detection, correct?
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`Transcript of David Kessler, Ph.D.
`Conducted on February 15, 2024
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`24
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` A Right.
` Q And you're using it to say that Baker
`would detect the edge of the image on the image
`sensor?
` A Yes.
` Q So there would have to be an edge to
`detect in order to use the edge detection, right?
` A Yes.
` Q And so Baker, then, must be underfilling
`at least a portion of the sensor in order to have
`an edge, correct?
` MR. JHURANI: Objection; form.
` A Edge detection -- you're saying that he
`wouldn't be able -- I don't understand what is the
`point of the question.
` Q So you're talking about edge detection
`in --
` A Yes.
` Q -- Paragraph 76 --
` A Yes.
` Q -- to say it would be used to detect the
`edge of the image circle; yes?
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`Transcript of David Kessler, Ph.D.
`Conducted on February 15, 2024
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`25
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` A Yes. It's an indication that in Baker's
`processing, he takes into account the image size,
`L, N190, and he's demonstrated by the fact that
`he's looking for the image size and using it in
`his algorithms.
` The edge detection means that he
`incorporated image size. So -- so what is the
`point here, I guess? I don't understand.
` Q So my question is if edge detection is
`necessary, there must be an edge to detect; yes?
` A Actually, edge detection indicates that he
`used the information. Okay? Probably he knew
`about that anyway, but he used edge detection, and
`that means he took into account in his processing
`the size of the image.
` He could -- how he did it, how did he find
`the edge in terms of what pixels did he use in the
`sensor? I didn't opine on that.
` Q Well, if -- let's look at the paragraph
`here. Starting in the second line on Page 33, you
`have a quote here from Baker, correct?
` A Line 30 --
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`Transcript of David Kessler, Ph.D.
`Conducted on February 15, 2024
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`26
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` Q No, Page 33.
` A Line --
` Q Second line.
` A Okay.
` Q You have a quote that starts "one
`feature"?
` A Yeah.
` Q This is from Baker, correct?
` A Yeah, from his -- yeah, transform process.
`Yeah.
` Q If we go down -- five lines down, it
`starts, thus.
` A Mm-hmm.
` Q Edge detection of the unused areas outside
`the circular image of Figure 4 can alert the
`system to ignore these values.
` Do you see that?
` A Yeah. Can you put up Figure 4 again?
` Q All right.
` MR. MURRAY: So, Micah, can you mark
`Exhibit 1006 as Kessler 3?
` TECHNICIAN: Stand by.
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`Transcript of David Kessler, Ph.D.
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`27
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` (Kessler 3 was marked for identification
`and is attached to the transcript.)
` THE WITNESS: Now, actually, I have Baker.
`I'm looking at Baker.
`BY MR. MURRAY:
` Q All right. And you recognize the exhibit
`marked as Kessler 3 up on the screen now as Baker?
` A Yeah.
` Q Okay. So if you could go to Page 7 of the
`document, which has Figure 4 on it?
` A Yeah.
` Q Okay. And the quote from Baker, we read
`from your declaration, said edge detection of the
`unused areas outside the circular image of
`Figure 4 can alert the system to ignore these
`values.
` A Okay.
` Q Okay. So in Baker, there are unused
`portions of the image sensor, correct?
` A Looks like it, yeah.
` Q And Baker, I believe, has a half field of
`view of 90 degrees; is that right?
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`28
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` A It's large. I don't recall what it is.
` Q Is it -- would you consider it a fisheye
`lens?
` A Yeah. And his Figure 3 doesn't go all the
`way to 90, but it's large.
` Q Just to be clear, because there's Figure
`3AA. Which figure are you referring to in Baker?
` A Yeah. Figure 3 -- I think it's 3BA.
` Q 3BA. Okay.
` A Yeah. I'm just looking at the rays coming
`out. It's not going all the way to 90. That's
`all. It's a fisheye lens.
` Q All right. Can we go back to Kessler 1,
`please? And turn to Page 24, Paragraph 57.
` Do you see that?
` A Yes.
` Q Okay. The first sentence of Paragraph 57
`says, such normalization of image size (and other
`parameters, e.g., focal length) to 1 was well
`known and common in optics.
` Do you see that?
` A Yes.
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`Transcript of David Kessler, Ph.D.
`Conducted on February 15, 2024
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`29
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` Q What is focal length?
` A What is focal length?
` Q Yes.
` A What is focal length? Focal length is a
`measure of the optical power of a lens.
` Q What is optical power of a lens?
` A Well, when you go to the optometrist, he
`will tell you that you need 3 diopters. That's
`optical power.
` Q When you go to an optometrist, can you
`explain that in a little more detail?
` A Optical power is the power of a lens to
`deviate the light. Okay? So it's measured in
`different ways. Triopters, focal lens, lens
`power. I mean, all kind of terminology is used.
`Okay?
` If a collimated beam comes into a lens, it
`would be focused at a distance of f, the focal
`length from the lens.
` Q Okay. Focal length is different from
`image size, right?
` A Of course, but they are related. Image
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`09:32:51
`09:32:54
`09:32:57
`09:32:59
`09:32:59
`09:33:08
`09:33:15
`
`Transcript of David Kessler, Ph.D.
`Conducted on February 15, 2024
`
`30
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`size is focal length times the field of view.
` MR. MURRAY: Micah, can we mark
`Exhibit 1024 as Kessler 4
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