Transcript of the Testimony of:
`
`MICHAEL FRANZ
`
`NETSKOPE, INC.
`
`vs.
`
`FORTINET, INC.
`
`
`
`
`
`May 10, 2024
`
`Volume II
`
`
`
`
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2017, Page 1 of 48
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`Fortinet Ex. 2017, Page 1 of 48
`
`
`
`MICHAEL FRANZ
`
`NETSKOPE, INC.
`
`vs.
`
`FORTINET, INC.
`
`
`
`
`
`May 10, 2024
`
`Volume II
`
`
`
`
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2017, Page 1 of 48
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2017, Page 1 of 48
`
`
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`· · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`· · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`NETSKOPE, INC.,· · · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · Petitioner,· · ·) PTAB Case No. IPR2023-00459
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · ·vs.· · · · · · ) Patent No. 10,084,825
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`FORTINET, INC.,· · · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · Patent Owner.· ·)
`____________________________)
`
`· · · · · · · ·DEPOSITION OF MICHAEL FRANZ
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`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·VOLUME II
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`· · · · · · · · · Sacramento, California
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`· · · · · · · · · ·Friday, May 10, 2024
`
`· · · · · · · REPORTED BY:· Matthew Sculatti
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · CSR No. 13558
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2017, Page 2 of 48
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`
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`· · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`· · · · ·BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`NETSKOPE, INC.,· · · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · Petitioner,· · ·) PTAB Case No. IPR2023-00459
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · ·vs.· · · · · · ) Patent No. 10,084,825
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`FORTINET, INC.,· · · · · · ·)
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · )
`· · · · · · Patent Owner.· ·)
`____________________________)
`
`· · ·Deposition of MICHAEL FRANZ, VOLUME II, taken before
`
`Matthew Sculatti, a Certified Shorthand Reporter for the
`
`State of California, commencing at 1:26 P.M.,
`
`Friday, May 10, 2024.· This deposition was reported
`
`remotely.
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`Fortinet Ex. 2017, Page 3 of 48
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`APPEARANCES:
`
`· · FOR THE PETITIONER:
`
`· · · · ·PERKINS COIE LLP
`
`· · · · ·BY:· THOMAS MILLIKAN, ATTORNEY AT LAW
`
`· · · · ·BY:· KAY LI, ATTORNEY AT LAW
`
`· · · · ·11452 El Camino Real
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`· · · · ·Suite 300
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`· · · · ·San Diego, California 92130-2080
`
`· · · · ·TEL:· (858) 720-5700
`
`· · · · ·FAX:· (858) 720-5799
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`· · · · ·tmillikan@perkinscoie.com
`
`· · · · ·bli@perkinscoie.com
`
`· · FOR THE PATENT OWNER:
`
`· · · · ·QUINN EMANUEL URQUHART & SULLIVAN, LLP
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`· · · · ·BY:· QUINCY LU, ATTORNEY AT LAW
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`· · · · ·865 South Figueroa Street
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`· · · · ·10th Floor
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`· · · · ·Los Angeles, California 90017
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`· · · · ·TEL:· (213) 443-3717
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`· · · · ·FAX:· (213) 443-3100
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`· · · · ·quincylu@quinnemanuel.com
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2017, Page 4 of 48
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`· · · · · · · · · · · · I N D E X
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`WITNESS· · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION· · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
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`MICHAEL FRANZ· · · · · ·By Mr. Lu· · · · · · · · · · · ·85
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`· · · · · · · · · · ·E X H I B I T S
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`EXHIBIT· · · · DESCRIPTION· · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
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`Exhibit 1019· ·Rebuttal Declaration of Michael Franz· ·114
`· · · · · · · ·in Support of Petitioner's Reply to
`· · · · · · · ·Patent Owner's Response
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`Fortinet Ex. 2017, Page 5 of 48
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`· · · Sacramento, California; Friday, May 10, 2024;
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`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·1:26 P.M.
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`· · · · · · · · · · · MICHAEL FRANZ,
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`having been administered an oath, was examined and
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`testified as follows:
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`· · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION
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`BY MR. LU:
`
`· · Q· · Good afternoon, Dr. Franz.
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`· · A· · Good afternoon.
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`· · Q· · You have been previously deposed in this case;
`
`correct?
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`· · A· · Yes, that's true.
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`· · Q· · And since then, you submitted a supplemental
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`declaration --
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`· · A· · Yes.
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`· · Q· · -- in this case?
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`· · A· · Yes.
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`· · Q· · And so you understand you're here today to
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`testify about that supplemental declaration?
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`· · A· · Yes.
`
`· · Q· · Okay.· In terms of this deposition today, did you
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`do anything to prepare for it?
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`· · A· · I -- I reread some of the documents, most
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`Fortinet Ex. 2017, Page 6 of 48
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`importantly my -- you know, obviously, the supplemental
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`declaration and some of the other -- other documents.· So
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`the paralegal at Perkins Coie sent me a full folder of the
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`pleadings and exhibits that I actually have in front of me
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`right now on my computer.
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`· · Q· · Okay.· So you have hard copies of --
`
`· · A· · Not hard copies.· I have -- I have soft copies.
`
`I -- I didn't print them out.
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`· · Q· · I see.· Okay.· So you have -- on your computer,
`
`you have copies of all of the exhibits, including your
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`declarations in this case?
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`· · A· · Yes.· So I don't know if it's all the exhibits,
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`but it's -- I believe it's the full set, yes.· And -- and
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`they came -- they came directly from the law firm. I
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`haven't actually looked at every single one of them.
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`· · Q· · Okay.· I -- I assume you have the relevant --
`
`the -- the important ones.· And if you don't, we -- I can
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`upload the exhibit.
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`· · · · ·Did you meet with anybody to prepare for today's
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`deposition?
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`· · A· · I met with the two attorneys that you see present
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`right now from Perkins Coie yesterday.
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`· · Q· · And so that would be Ms. Li and Mr. Millikan?
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`· · A· · Correct.
`
`· · Q· · And how long did you meet with them yesterday?
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`Fortinet Ex. 2017, Page 7 of 48
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`· · A· · Oh, perhaps an hour and 15 minutes.
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`· · Q· · And did you meet with anybody before yesterday to
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`prepare for this deposition?
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`· · A· · For this deposition, no.
`
`· · Q· · Okay.· And do you have any notes in front of you,
`
`whether physical or, you know, on your computer?
`
`· · A· · No.
`
`· · Q· · And you don't have any other applications open
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`besides Zoom and whatever PDF viewer you're using?
`
`· · A· · Correct.· I think I may have -- on -- on another
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`screen, I have my e-mail open.· I closed that right now
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`because I needed the link in order to join you.· Okay.
`
`It's closed now.
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`· · Q· · Okay.· That's fine.
`
`· · · · ·Now, Dr. Franz, you are here as an expert in the
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`field of computer networking; correct?
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`· · A· · I'm here as an -- as an -- as an expert on the
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`field of computer security networking and other fields
`
`that's relevant to this -- to this proceeding, yes.
`
`· · Q· · And -- and computer networking is one of the
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`fields that's relevant to this proceeding; correct?
`
`· · A· · Well, computer network security is.· We have --
`
`we have this discussion previously, whether distributed
`
`computing was -- was -- was relevant.· So my expertise is
`
`in network security and related systems software.
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`Fortinet Ex. 2017, Page 8 of 48
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`· · Q· · Okay.· And -- and how long have you been an
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`expert in network security?
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`· · A· · So I mean, for many years I published in the --
`
`the main conference on -- on Network and Distributed
`
`Systems Symposium maybe for ten years.· I -- I would have
`
`to look at my -- my -- my resume.· But much of my research
`
`has been informed in the space of either, you know,
`
`distributing computations between client server systems;
`
`you know, having mobile devices in networks where some of
`
`the work was offloaded to servers; and then the whole
`
`problem of keeping these devices secured in the possible
`
`presence of malware moving via the network; and some other
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`things.· So if you look at that, it's probably 20 years
`
`that I've been working in this -- in this space.
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`· · Q· · And -- and when did you graduate college or
`
`university?
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`· · A· · So I am actually year '94.· And my master's
`
`degree in '89.
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`· · Q· · And what were -- what subjects were your PhD
`
`or -- and your master's?
`
`· · A· · So my -- I actually built one of the very first
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`mobile code systems, where you had programs that you
`
`compiled to a -- you know, a machine-independent
`
`representation that moved across the network and at the
`
`other -- you know, at the other side, was dynamically
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`Fortinet Ex. 2017, Page 9 of 48
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`recreated.· So I built one of the very first portable code
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`systems about two years before Java was introduced.
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`· · Q· · I see.· So you -- you've been -- so you just
`
`testified that this project you worked on involved
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`computer networks; correct?
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`· · A· · So which project?· Excuse me, again.
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`· · Q· · This, what you called, the very first mobile code
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`system.· You mentioned it involved a machine-independent
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`representation --
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`· · A· · So --
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`· · Q· · -- that moved across the network?
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`· · A· · So --
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`· · Q· · Does this project involve computer networking?
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`· · A· · My PhD project?
`
`· · Q· · Yes?
`
`· · A· · My PhD project was -- was based on the -- on
`
`the -- on the machine-independent representation.· The
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`idea there was -- was -- was that you could get
`
`portability for free.· At the time, you know, the -- the
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`system that I built initially was just the -- the fact
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`that you could take a -- a portable format and generate it
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`for a specific computer.· I actually demonstrated this by
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`doing it from a -- from a disc, reading it from a disc and
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`doing it.· But very soon afterwards, like two years later,
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`Java came.· And then this whole -- so that would have been
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`Fortinet Ex. 2017, Page 10 of 48
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`in 1996.
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`· · · · ·And from then onwards, obviously, the whole game
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`became mobile code that moves across computer networks.
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`So if you look at my publication history, there's going to
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`be some work about how do you make sure that a program
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`that moves across a mobile network doesn't cause harm to
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`the target computer; all right?· That's still a problem
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`today.
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`· · Q· · Okay.· And so for your PhD project, did it
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`involve building a computer network?
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`· · A· · My PhD program did not involve building a
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`computer network, no.
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`· · Q· · Did it involve using a computer network?
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`· · A· · The actual PhD project did not.
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`· · Q· · Okay.· Let me ask it this way:· How long have you
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`been familiar with computer networks?
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`· · A· · A long time.
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`· · Q· · Over --
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`· · A· · Yes.
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`· · Q· · Over 30 years?
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`· · A· · I was certainly using computer networks when I
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`was still a graduate student.· And -- and after that, yes.
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`· · Q· · And what years were you a graduate student?
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`· · A· · I was a graduate student between '89 and '94.
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`· · Q· · And while you were a graduate student or, you
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`Fortinet Ex. 2017, Page 11 of 48
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`know, earlier or even a little bit later, did you build
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`any computer networks?
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`· · A· · I did not build a computer network, no.· What do
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`you even mean by building a computer network?· Do you mean
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`putting the cables together?· Do you mean installing the
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`software?· Do you mean -- what exactly are you -- are you
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`referring to about that?
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`· · Q· · Well, I mean, I was pretty young in the 1990s; so
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`I'm not too familiar with how networks worked at that
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`time, but whatever definition.· So -- so we can go with
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`the first one, putting the cables together.
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`· · · · ·Is that something that you did in the 1990s or
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`even in the early 2000s?
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`· · A· · I would probably have plugged computers into --
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`into -- into switches and cabled my -- my computer to
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`something, yes.· But I wouldn't call that building a
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`network necessarily, yes.
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`· · Q· · I see.· What -- what would you call that then?
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`· · A· · Connecting to a network.· I mean, obviously,
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`you're talking about my graduate-student days.· I mean,
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`definitely in the years later, you know, I have been
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`working on projects that were deeply involved in trying to
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`make networks of computers work better together.
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`· · Q· · All right.· So in these networks that you at
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`least were familiar with in the '90s or early 2000s, what
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`Fortinet Ex. 2017, Page 12 of 48
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`were some of the components that would have been involved
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`or would have been part of that network?
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`· · A· · So the interesting thing is actually that, since
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`you talked about my graduate-student days, in my
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`graduate-student days, we actually -- I was a student at
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`ETH Zurich.· And my advisor was a very famous man who just
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`passed away last year.· And we actually had a total
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`computer infrastructure that was built in-house.· So we
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`did actually not use a standard network.
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`· · · · ·We actually used computers that were called Ceres
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`that were built by some other grad students.· And we ran
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`our own operating system, and we ran our own physical
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`hardware to do the networking.· And we programmed our own
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`networking stack.· It's just that I wasn't the person
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`doing that, but other grad students were.· It was a -- not
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`a standard off-the-shelf computing environment, but it was
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`actually an entirely in-house built environment from the
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`hardware all the way up to the programming language and
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`the operating system, including the networking stack.
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`· · Q· · Okay.· Would you agree that in the 1990s, one of
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`the standard ways -- or one of the standard types of
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`networks was an Ethernet network?
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`· · A· · I -- I agree that one of the standards was an
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`Ethernet network.· We were not using Ethernet at the time.
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`· · Q· · Are you familiar with Ethernet networks?
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`Fortinet Ex. 2017, Page 13 of 48
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`· · A· · I'm familiar with Ethernet networks, yes.
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`· · Q· · Were you familiar with Ethernet networks in the
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`'90s or early 2000s?
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`· · A· · Yes.
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`· · Q· · So in an Ethernet network, what would be some of
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`the components that made up that network?
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`· · A· · What do you mean by "components"?· What --
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`· · Q· · Well, physical hardware.· What would be some of
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`the physical hardware that made up an Ethernet network in
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`the 1990s or early 2000s?
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`· · A· · As far as the -- the -- you know, the -- the
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`consumer, you had -- you had an Ethernet card somewhere in
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`your -- in your computer that at that time was -- might
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`have been a -- a discrete piece of hardware that you
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`plugged into a board somewhere.· And then you attach an
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`Ethernet cable, and you might have had a switch or
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`something that you plugged the other end of the cable
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`into.
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`· · Q· · Okay.· What is a switch?
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`· · A· · A switch is a -- a box that -- that switches
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`connection -- you know, that has multiple devices it plugs
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`into.· And it routes traffic from one end to another -- to
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`another end.
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`· · Q· · Okay.· I'm not sure if it actually does any
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`routing.· But putting that aside, did routers exist in the
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`Fortinet Ex. 2017, Page 14 of 48
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`1990s and early 2000s for Ethernet networks?
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`· · A· · Yeah.· I think we were using routers and switches
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`pretty -- sometimes interchangeably; so -- so both of
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`these existed, yes.
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`· · Q· · And what about hubs?· Have you ever heard that?
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`An Ethernet hub?
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`· · A· · I've -- I've heard that term, yes.
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`· · Q· · So besides hubs, switches, or routers, or the
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`Ethernet cards in a client device, were there any other
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`sort of physical components that were commonly used in an
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`Ethernet network?
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`· · A· · Specifically on an Ethernet network?
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`· · Q· · Yeah?
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`· · A· · I mean, I don't know what -- what exactly you're
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`getting at.
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`· · Q· · Which -- which part of my question did you not
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`understand?
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`· · A· · What other kind of device are you -- are you --
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`are you -- are you looking for?
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`· · Q· · I'm not -- I'm -- I'm asking you if there were
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`any other sort of devices.· If you can't think of any,
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`then you can say that.
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`· · A· · Okay.· I -- if you're -- you're asking about
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`Ethernet in the 1990s, so that's a -- a long time ago.
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`Yes.
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`Fortinet Ex. 2017, Page 15 of 48
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`· · Q· · Okay.· So let me -- let me just clarify.· So
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`you've identified switches, routers, Ethernet cards, and a
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`client device.· I mentioned hubs.· And I'm just trying to
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`figure out if there's anything else -- any other sort of
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`physical component that was commonly used in an Ethernet
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`network in the '90s or early 2000s.· Do you know if there
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`was?
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`· · A· · I -- I would have to look into that.· It was a
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`long time ago.· I'm not quite sure how that relates to --
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`to this case, but -- but, you know, that was a time when
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`there was still lots of different networking technologies
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`that -- that coexisted.· So...
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`· · Q· · Okay.· So you said --
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`· · A· · I --
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`· · Q· · Oh, go ahead.
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`· · A· · Yeah.· I mean --
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`· · Q· · Sorry.
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`· · A· · So at that time, you know, I had an office.· And
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`I -- I had a computer that -- that I connected to -- to --
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`to an Ethernet.· And -- and some of the other
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`infrastructure was managed by other people.
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`· · Q· · So just talking about Ethernet networks, if you
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`wanted to network more -- like, three or more client
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`devices together, could you do that without a switch or a
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`router or a similar piece of hardware?
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`Fortinet Ex. 2017, Page 16 of 48
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`· · A· · So -- say that again.· Ask the question again,
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`please.
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`· · Q· · Let me -- let me clarify.· So just talking about
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`Ethernet networks in the '90s or early 2000s.· If you
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`wanted to have three client devices on the same network
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`and each one only has a single Ethernet card, would you be
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`able to put them on the same network without using a
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`switch or a router or a hub or a similar piece of
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`hardware?
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`· · A· · Yeah.· I believe the -- the early Ethernets,
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`right -- they were -- they actually used a common -- a
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`common box.· But, you know, I think by the time that
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`you're talking, most of the Internet was already switched
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`to Ethernet.
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`· · Q· · Okay.· So -- sorry.· Was that a yes or a no?
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`· · A· · There were specific networks where it was an --
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`an open bus, and -- yes.· And so people -- people
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`talked -- that was the whole point of the original
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`Ethernet, that you would actually listen to see if there
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`was any traffic.· And you would -- you would talk on the
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`network.· And only -- and only one person could talk at
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`the same time.· And if there was a collision, then there
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`was a backup scheme where -- where people -- where the --
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`the computers would -- would randomly wait to -- so
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`hopefully, someone would -- would then start talking
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`Fortinet Ex. 2017, Page 17 of 48
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`and -- and have the -- have the bus to themselves, the
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`bandwidth.· But -- but, obviously, the -- the shared
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`resources limited the throughput so people moved away from
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`that quite early.· Now you're talking about a quite
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`specific technology that hasn't been used in a long time.
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`· · Q· · Would you agree that networks today are more
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`complicated than the networks that we were discussing from
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`the 1990s or early 2000s?
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`· · · · ·MS. LI:· Objection.· Form.
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`· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yeah.· What -- can you define what
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`"complicated" is?
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`BY MR. LU:
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`· · Q· · Do you have an understanding of network
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`complexity?
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`· · A· · There's -- there's many different dimensions of
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`network complexity.· I mean, certainly, we have more
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`devices today.
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`· · Q· · Okay.· Besides more devices, are there any other
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`dimensions of network complexity?
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`· · A· · I mean, we have -- we have more diversity on the
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`networks.· We have more devices.· We have different
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`networking technologies that coexist.· We have devices
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`that move.· You know, they are -- they are on the network
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`somewhere.· And then they disappear, and they appear
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`somewhere totally different because someone has unplugged
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`Fortinet Ex. 2017, Page 18 of 48
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`a laptop and plugged it in somewhere else.· There are --
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`there are lots of things that, you know, the scale --
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`everything -- so many more devices on networks.· So yes,
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`there's more stuff going on.
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`· · Q· · So you said -- I believe you said we have more
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`diversity on the networks.· What did you mean by that?
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`· · A· · So we have people -- we have devices that connect
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`Wi-Fi.· We have devices that connect via cellular
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`networks.· We have mobile phones.· We have tablets.· We
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`have mainframes.· We have -- you know, there's -- there
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`are more different devices that are networked than there
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`were.
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`· · Q· · I see.
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`· · · · ·And you also said we have more devices.· Now, I
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`assume you're talking about we have numerically more
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`devices supported in networks; is that correct?
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`· · A· · For the total number of network devices is
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`probably larger than the number of people on this planet
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`by several factors.· Several factors, yes.
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`· · Q· · And -- and so just to clarify, in networks today,
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`they tend to be larger, have more devices than networks
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`from the 1990s to early 2000s; is that what you're saying?
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`· · · · ·MS. LI:· Objection.· Form.
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`· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· So I was talking about the total
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`devices in the world that are networked; all right?· So
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`Fortinet Ex. 2017, Page 19 of 48
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`
`
`these are -- these are on -- on different networks.· And
`
`those networks themselves are then interconnected.
`
`BY MR. LU:
`
`· · Q· · Okay.· And so you also said we have, you know, a
`
`diversity of devices including like Wi-Fi and mobile
`
`phones and tablets and mainframes.
`
`· · · · ·Are there physical components that have to -- or
`
`that are -- not have to -- let me withdraw.
`
`· · · · ·So you said there was a diversity of devices,
`
`including Wi-Fi and mobile phones and tablets and
`
`mainframes.· Do networks today use physical components to
`
`handle that diversity of devices?
`
`· · A· · Okay.· So first of all, Wi-Fi is not a -- is not
`
`a -- not a kind of device.· So -- so there's a diversity
`
`of connection techniques, which include, you know, mobile
`
`networks and Wi-Fi.· There's a diversity of devices, which
`
`includes mobile phones, tablets, and these devices.
`
`And -- what is the second part of your question?
`
`· · Q· · The second part is do networks today use physical
`
`components to handle this diversity of devices or
`
`connection types?
`
`· · A· · That's a very vague question.· So -- so, you
`
`know -- so networks have been -- have been, obviously,
`
`trying to -- to keep up with the number of devices, yes.
`
`· · Q· · I mean, earlier we were talking about hubs and
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2017, Page 20 of 48
`
`
`
`switches and routers.· Are there other types of physical
`
`components used in today's networks to handle the
`
`diversity of devices and networking protocols?
`
`· · A· · Well, for example, if you have a wireless device
`
`and you need a base station to connect that wireless
`
`device somehow; right?· So there's -- there's
`
`corresponding infrastructure for the different networking
`
`technologies.
`
`· · Q· · And if you wanted to give a label to the physical
`
`components of the infrastructure, what label would you
`
`give it?
`
`· · A· · I'm not sure I understand your question.· What do
`
`you mean by "label"?
`
`· · Q· · Well, so there's hardware and the infrastructure.
`
`And then there's client devices that connect to the
`
`infrastructure.
`
`· · · · ·Is there like a term that we can use to call that
`
`hardware and infrastructure?
`
`· · A· · I -- I just called it infrastructure; right?· So
`
`for each different kind of technology, you would have a
`
`different kind of infrastructure.· So for example, for
`
`a -- for my Wi-Fi network, I call it a base station.
`
`· · Q· · Does it make sense to call them network
`
`appliances?
`
`· · A· · I would -- I do not believe that, you know, a
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2017, Page 21 of 48
`
`
`
`mobile phone provider would call their cell tower a -- a
`
`network appliance.
`
`· · Q· · Okay.· But would --
`
`· · A· · I would -- I would be surprised if they did.
`
`· · Q· · Okay.· But what about like a Wi-Fi router?· Would
`
`that be a network appliance?
`
`· · A· · Okay.· I mean, I'm sure that there may be people
`
`who would call a wireless bay station a -- an appliance.
`
`That might be a -- a term that -- that someone might use
`
`in a -- in a marketing kind of environment.· But...
`
`· · Q· · But you wouldn't use it that way?· Is that what
`
`you're saying?
`
`· · A· · Well, I'm -- when I'm talking about a wireless
`
`base station, I'm being very specific.· And I -- I call it
`
`a wireless base station.
`
`· · Q· · Okay.· Would you call a firewall a network
`
`appliance?
`
`· · A· · When I'm talking about a firewall specifically, I
`
`call it a firewall.· But --
`
`· · Q· · Okay.· But you wouldn't -- I'm sorry.· You
`
`wouldn't call it a network appliance?· Is that what you're
`
`saying?
`
`· · · · ·MS. LI:· Objection.· Form.
`
`· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· So, you know, if we are -- if we
`
`are talking about a group of devices, then -- then -- then
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2017, Page 22 of 48
`
`
`
`yes.· The -- the term "appliance" might be appropriate if
`
`they -- they share the -- the property that they are, you
`
`know, devices with a small operating system that, you
`
`know, running -- you know, that are -- that are managed
`
`and that -- you know, the word "appliance" comes from
`
`something like a kitchen appliance; right?· So that is
`
`a -- a device that -- that requires very little
`
`interaction and that does a specific -- small set of
`
`specific tasks, mostly without requiring interaction.
`
`BY MR. LU:
`
`· · Q· · Okay.· Do you know who Dr. Wenke Lee is?
`
`· · A· · Yes.
`
`· · Q· · Okay.· And you understand he is an expert hired
`
`by your client, Netskope, in other IPR proceedings against
`
`Fortinet; correct?
`
`· · A· · I understood that, yes.
`
`· · Q· · Have you ever met Dr. Lee?
`
`· · A· · Yes.
`
`· · Q· · Have you ever spoken with him?
`
`· · A· · Yes.
`
`· · Q· · Have you spoken to him about these cases?
`
`· · A· · No.
`
`· · Q· · When was the last time that you spoke with
`
`Dr. Lee?
`
`· · A· · I believe it's been after the pandemic.· So -- so
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2017, Page 23 of 48
`
`
`
`we attend some of the same computer security conferences,
`
`and so, you know, if we sat next to each other during some
`
`dinners, but we usually talk about scientific topics.
`
`· · Q· · I see.· Do you agree that Dr. Lee meets your
`
`definition of a person of an ordinary skill in the art?
`
`· · A· · Certainly.
`
`· · Q· · Okay.· So do you have a copy of the -- of
`
`Exhibit 1001 in front of you, or do you have access to a
`
`copy of Exhibit 1001?
`
`· · A· · That is the patent itself; right?
`
`· · Q· · Yes.
`
`· · A· · Okay.· Yes.
`
`· · Q· · Okay.· Let me open it up, as well.
`
`· · · · ·MS. LI:· Counsel, do you mind just dropping it
`
`into the chat anyway just to --
`
`· · · · ·MR. LU:· Okay.· Sure.· Yeah.· Hold on.· Give me a
`
`second then.
`
`· · · · ·All right.· It's uploading.· Do you see it?
`
`· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yes.
`
`· · · · ·MS. LI:· Yes.
`
`· · · · ·MR. LU:· Okay.· Great.
`
`BY MR. LU:
`
`· · Q· · Okay.· So, Dr. Franz, do you have it open?
`
`Exhibit --
`
`· · A· · Yes.
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2017, Page 24 of 48
`
`
`
`· · Q· · Okay.· Great.
`
`· · · · ·Could you turn to page 12, which is listing the
`
`claims?
`
`· · A· · Okay.
`
`· · Q· · Now, I wanted to ask you about -- well, I wanted
`
`to ask you about claim 1, which starts on page 11.
`
`· · A· · Okay.
`
`· · Q· · But the limitations I wanted to look at are on
`
`the next page, page 12.· So if you see on page 12, column
`
`11, line 4, there is a determining step.
`
`· · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`· · A· · Yes.
`
`· · Q· · "Determining by the first network security
`
`appliance, one or more network security operations that
`
`are executed by the second network security appliance."
`
`· · A· · I see that.
`
`· · Q· · Okay.· And then the next step is also a
`
`determining step; correct?
`
`· · A· · Correct.
`
`· · Q· · And so I'll just read it into the record.· This
`
`limitation says, "Determining by the first network
`
`security appliance, one or more local network security
`
`operations that are to be executed by the first network
`
`security appliance based on the one or more network
`
`security operations that are executed by the second
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2017, Page 25 of 48
`
`
`
`network security appliance, including skipping, by the
`
`first network security appliance, the one or more network
`
`security operations that are executed by the second
`
`network security appliance."
`
`· · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`· · A· · I see that.
`
`· · Q· · Can you tell me in your own words how you
`
`interpret these two limitations?
`
`· · A· · So -- so this patent is talking very specifically
`
`about a set of cooperate -- you know, of -- of -- of
`
`network devices that are cooperating with each other for
`
`the purpose of security; all right?· So that's some --
`
`somewhat different from you asking me what was going on at
`
`the end of the 1990s in the specific context of Ethernet.
`
`So -- and, you know, we actually have a -- you know, a
`
`very specific context given in the specification that
`
`talks about, you know, a first network security appliance
`
`that receives incoming traffic.
`
`· · · · ·And then, you know, it actually gives, you
`
`know -- it presents an embodiment as an example, where you
`
`can see that, you know, there's traffic that is -- that is
`
`routed.· You know, there's -- there's -- there's a VPN
`
`and -- and so on.· So what -- what this -- what this claim
`
`says is that you have a first network security appliance
`
`that is able to determine whether traffic that is -- that
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2017, Page 26 of 48
`
`
`
`comes into it came from a -- a second network security
`
`appliance that is participating in this -- in this
`
`collaboration.· And -- and after it determined that --
`
`that it did come from -- from that other second -- other
`
`security appliance, then it -- it determines what
`
`operations that second appliance may have already -- the
`
`security -- network security operations that other
`
`appliance has already performed.
`
`· · · · ·And then after that, it determines, you know,
`
`which -- which operations itself needs to be executed
`
`based on its knowledge of what security operations have
`
`already been performed by the previous -- by the -- by the
`
`second appliance that -- that previously processed this
`
`traffic.
`
`· · Q· · All right.· So that was a pretty long answer.
`
`Maybe I can try to summarize it a bit.
`
`· · A· · (Unintelligible response).
`
`· · Q· · That's okay.· That's okay.
`
`· · · · ·So with respect to these two determining steps in
`
`column 11, what's going on is that you have two network
`
`security appliances.· The first one determines whether the
`
`second one has already performed a network security
`
`operation on the traffic.· And if it has, then one of the
`
`things it can do is skip that particular operation that
`
`was already executed; correct?
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2017, Page 27 of 48
`
`
`
`· · · · ·MS. LI:· Objection.· Form.
`
`· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· That's what it says there.· It
`
`says, you know, determine and including skipping by the
`
`first network security appliance to one or more network
`
`security operations that are executed by the second
`
`network security appliance.
`
`BY MR. LU:
`
`· · Q· · Okay.· And you -- you would agree that the first
`
`network security appliance is cooperating with the second
`
`network security appliance in these limitations; correct?
`
`· · · · ·MS. LI:· Objection.· Form.
`
`· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Well, the -- the goal of this whole
`
`thing is -- is to avoid duplicate work through
`
`cooperation.
`
`BY MR. LU:
`
`· · Q· · Okay.· And specifically these two determining
`
`steps, they accomplish the goal of avoiding duplicate work
`
`through cooperation; correct?
`
`· · A· · Well, it's not just these -- it's not just the
`
`two steps.· It's the -- the whole setup; right?· You need
`
`to also first set things up so that -- that, you know, you
`
`actually know what -- what -- what that means; right?· So
`
`you need -- you need to be able to identify that; right?
`
`It starts on the previous page.
`
`· · Q· · Right.· No.· I understand that, but I'm just
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2017, Page 28 of 48
`
`
`
`trying to figure out where is the cooperation going on.
`
`And my question is would you agree that these two
`
`determining steps, that is where the first and second
`
`network security appliances are cooperating?
`
`· · A· · The whole thing is -- the whole protocol is -- is
`
`the cooperation.
`
`· · Q· · Okay.· But in column 11, these two determining
`
`steps, there is cooperation going on; correct?
`
`· · · · ·MS. LI:· Objection.· Form.
`
`· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· The -- the steps are -- these two
`
`steps are -- are -- are carried out by the first network
`
`security appliance; right?· So it's --
`
`BY MR. LU:
`
`· · Q· · Uh-huh.
`
`· · A· · -- it's the avoiding of the duplicate work
`
`that's -- that's happening in those steps.
`
`· · Q· · Okay.· And would you agree that in those steps
`
`the first network security appliance is cooperating with
`
`the second network security appliance?
`
`· · A· · At that point, the second one is no longer
`
`involved.
`
`· · Q· · So is it your testimony that they're not
`
`cooperating in these steps?
`
`· · A· · As I said, the whole thing is the cooperation.
`
`The -- the -- the -- the cooperation is the -- is the --
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2017, Page 29 of 48
`
`
`
`the whole protocol that enables the second -- sorry.· It
`
`enables the first network security appliance to decide to
`
`not repeat network security operations that it has
`
`determined have already been -- been performed by the
`
`second one.
`
`· · Q· · Okay.· And so which limitation would you say is
`
`where the first network security appliance, quote,
`
`"decides to not repeat network security operation that it
`
`has determined have already been performed by the second
`
`one," end quote?
`
`· · A· · Well, that's the limitation that says determining
`
`by the first network security appliance one or more local
`
`network security operations that are to be executed by the
`
`first network security appliance based on the one or more
`
`network security operations that are executed by the
`
`second network security appliance, including skipping, by
`
`the first network security appliance, the one or more
`
`network security operations that are executed by the
`
`second network security appliance.
`
`· · Q· · Okay.· So that's the limitation at column 11
`
`starting at line 7 -- correct? -- that you just re
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