Transcript of the Testimony of:
`
`DR. MICHAEL FRANZ
`
`NETSKOPE, INC.
`
`VS.
`
`FORTINET, INC.
`
`December 28, 2023
`
`Volume |
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2005, Page 1 of 91
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2005, Page 1 of 91
`
`
`
`DR. MICHAEL FRANZ
`
`NETSKOPE, INC.
`
`VS.
`
`FORTINET, INC.
`
`December 28, 2023
`
`Volume |
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2005, Page 1 of 91
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2005, Page 1 of 91
`
`
`
`· · · · UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`· · · · · · · · · ·___________________
`
`· · · · BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`· · · · · · · · · ·___________________
`
`· · · · · · · · · · ·NETSKOPE, INC.,
`· · · · · · · · · · · ·Petitioner,
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · ·v.
`· · · · · · · · · · ·FORTINET, INC.,
`· · · · · · · · · · · Patent Owner.
`· · · · · · · · · ____________________
`
`· · · · · · · ·PTAB Case No. IPR2023-00459
`
`· · · · · · · · · Patent No. 10,084,825
`
`· · · · · · · · · ____________________
`
`· · · · · · · · · REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · DEPOSITION OF
`
`· · · · · · · · · · DR. MICHAEL FRANZ
`
`· · · · · · · ·Thursday, December 28, 2023
`
`· · · · · · · ·Via Zoom Video Conferencing
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · ·10:02 a.m.
`
`Reported by:· Rachel N. Barkume, CSR, RMR, CRR
`· · · · · · · Certificate No. 13657
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2005, Page 2 of 91
`
`
`
`· · · · · · · · · A P P E A R A N C E S
`
`FOR THE PETITIONER:
`
`· · · · ·PERKINS COIE LLP
`· · · · ·By:· ANDREW KLEIN
`· · · · · · · BINGJIE (KAY) LI
`· · · · ·Attorneys at Law
`· · · · ·11452 El Camino Real, Suite 300
`· · · · ·San Diego, California 92130
`· · · · ·(858) 720-5700
`· · · · ·aklein@perkinscoie.com
`· · · · ·bli@perkinscoie.com
`
`FOR THE PATENT OWNER:
`
`· · · · ·QUINN EMANUEL URQUHART & SULLIVAN LLP
`· · · · ·By:· OGI ZIVOJNOVIC
`· · · · · · · QUINCY LU
`· · · · ·Attorneys at Law
`· · · · ·865 South Figueroa Street, Floor 10
`· · · · ·Los Angeles, California 90017
`· · · · ·(213) 443-3251
`· · · · ·ogizivojnovic@quinnemanuel.com
`· · · · ·quincylu@quinnemanuel.com
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2005, Page 3 of 91
`
`
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · · I N D E X
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · ·PAGE
`
`EXAMINATION BY MR. ZIVOJNOVIC· · · · · · · · · · · ·4
`
`EXAMINATION BY MR. KLEIN· · · · · · · · · · · · · · 74
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · · ·--o0o--
`
`· · · · · · · · · · ·E X H I B I T S
`
`EXHIBIT· · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · · PAGE
`
`Exhibit A· · ·Institution Decision by Patent Office 18
`
`Exhibit 1002· Declaration of Dr. Michael Franz· · · 24
`
`Exhibit 1001· United States Patent No. 10,084,825· ·29
`
`Exhibit 1004· Chandra Patent Application· · · · · · 39
`
`Exhibit 1008· Keohane Patent Application· · · · · · 57
`
`Exhibit 1005· Buruganahalli Patent Application· · · 72
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2005, Page 4 of 91
`
`
`
`· · · · ·BE IT REMEMBERED that on Thursday, December 28,
`
`2023, commencing at 10:02 a.m. thereof, via Zoom Video
`
`Conferencing, before me, Rachel N. Barkume, a Certified
`
`Shorthand Reporter in and for the State of California,
`
`remotely appeared from Irvine, California,
`
`· · · · · · · · · ·DR. MICHAEL FRANZ,
`
`a witness called on behalf of the Patent Owner, who,
`
`having been first duly sworn by me to testify the truth,
`
`was examined and testified as follows:
`
`· · · · · · · · · · · ·EXAMINATION
`
`BY MR. ZIVOJNOVIC:
`
`· · ·Q.· Could you please state your full name for the
`
`record.
`
`· · ·A.· My name is Michael Franz, and I have two middle
`
`names, Stephen Oliver, that I don't usually use on my
`
`publications.
`
`· · ·Q.· And I would like to go over some ground rules
`
`before we get started.· You understand that you're under
`
`oath to tell the truth today.
`
`· · · · ·Do you?
`
`· · ·A.· Yes.
`
`· · ·Q.· The court reporter is creating a written
`
`transcript of today's deposition.· To create a clear
`
`transcript, one important rule is that you let me finish
`
`my questions before responding, and I will let you
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2005, Page 5 of 91
`
`
`
`finish your answers before asking the next question.
`
`· · · · ·Agreed?
`
`· · ·A.· Yes.
`
`· · ·Q.· It is also important you give verbal responses
`
`to my questions rather than nodding or otherwise
`
`answering nonverbally.
`
`· · · · ·Agreed?
`
`· · ·A.· I'll do my best.
`
`· · ·Q.· At some point I may ask a question that you do
`
`not understand.· If I do, please let me know.· I'll be
`
`happy to rephrase or to try to clarify.
`
`· · · · ·Agreed?
`
`· · ·A.· Yes.
`
`· · ·Q.· If you answer my question without asking for
`
`clarification, however, I will assume you understood it.
`
`· · · · ·Agreed?
`
`· · ·A.· I'll do my best.
`
`· · ·Q.· Is there any reason at all why you cannot
`
`provide full, true, and accurate testimony today?
`
`· · ·A.· I'm not aware of any reason.
`
`· · ·Q.· You understand that this deposition is in
`
`connection with an IPR relating to U.S. Patent Number
`
`10,084,825; right?
`
`· · ·A.· Yes.
`
`· · ·Q.· Is it okay if we refer to this as the '825
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2005, Page 6 of 91
`
`
`
`patent?
`
`· · ·A.· Yes.
`
`· · ·Q.· Now, you analyzed the '825 patent; correct?
`
`· · ·A.· Correct.
`
`· · ·Q.· And you submitted a declaration regarding the
`
`invalidity of the '825 patent in light of certain prior
`
`art; correct?
`
`· · ·A.· Correct.
`
`· · ·Q.· One of the claim terms in the '825 patent is
`
`"cooperative security fabric"; right?
`
`· · ·A.· Yes.
`
`· · ·Q.· And in your declaration, you opined that you
`
`found that the prior art discloses such a cooperative
`
`security fabric; correct?
`
`· · ·A.· Yes.
`
`· · ·Q.· Fair to say, then, that you understood the
`
`scope of the claim term "cooperative security fabric"?
`
`· · · · ·MR. KLEIN:· Object to form.
`
`· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· What do you mean by "scope"
`
`exactly, please?
`
`BY MR. ZIVOJNOVIC:
`
`· · ·Q.· In analyzing the prior art, you applied a
`
`certain meaning of the term "cooperative security
`
`fabric"; right?
`
`· · ·A.· So we did not construct this term "cooperative
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2005, Page 7 of 91
`
`
`
`security fabric," so I used the plain and ordinary
`
`meaning of the term "cooperative security fabric."
`
`· · ·Q.· And is it okay if we occasionally use "CSF" as
`
`an abbreviation for cooperative security fabric?
`
`· · ·A.· Yes.
`
`· · ·Q.· So you agree that cooperative security fabric
`
`has a plain meaning, then?
`
`· · ·A.· Well, so the word "fabric" is a well-known term
`
`in the art, and, you know, the word "cooperative" is
`
`clear in this context, and the word "security" is, you
`
`know, clear that we're talking about the parts of the
`
`fabric that are having security functions.· And so I
`
`believe that a person of ordinary skill in the art at
`
`the time would have understood what is meant by this
`
`compound cooperative security fabric term.
`
`· · ·Q.· What is the plain meaning of fabric in the
`
`context of network and data security?
`
`· · ·A.· So a fabric is the physical structure of a
`
`network, so the topology of the network.· So, you know,
`
`which -- which part of the network is actually directly
`
`connected to which other part of the -- what is the --
`
`the physical layout of the interconnectedness and where
`
`are these parts located.
`
`· · ·Q.· Now, is the word "fabric" -- let me start over.
`
`· · · · ·You understand the word "fabric" is a reference
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2005, Page 8 of 91
`
`
`
`to clothing fabric; right?
`
`· · · · ·MR. KLEIN:· Objection.· Form.
`
`· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· So, I mean, I understand that
`
`somehow the -- the use of the term in computer science
`
`and networking actually sort of may be inspired by the
`
`idea that you have cables weaving, you know, through
`
`buildings and such.· So that's probably where the
`
`analogy comes from.
`
`BY MR. ZIVOJNOVIC:
`
`· · ·Q.· So you would agree, then, that at a minimum,
`
`the word "fabric" in the context of network and data
`
`security is inspired by the phrase "fabric" in the
`
`context of clothing; right?
`
`· · · · ·MR. KLEIN:· Object to form.
`
`· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I don't know one way or other.
`
`This is anecdotal.· I just -- I just know that the term
`
`"fabric" to refer to the physical infrastructure of
`
`networking was in use at the time and is still in use.
`
`BY MR. ZIVOJNOVIC:
`
`· · ·Q.· So sitting here today, it is your understanding
`
`that the term "fabric" in computer science and
`
`networking was inspired by the idea of threads weaving
`
`in clothing; right?
`
`· · · · ·MR. KLEIN:· Object to scope -- or sorry, object
`
`to form.
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2005, Page 9 of 91
`
`
`
`· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· So as I said, this is anecdotal.
`
`I'm -- you know, I'm not historian of computer science
`
`terms.· I would -- you know, that is -- I'm aware of the
`
`term, I've been aware of the term for a long time, but
`
`that is a guess.· I have no way of scientifically
`
`establishing whether or not that term comes from
`
`clothing, but it's an educated guess.· I don't think it
`
`really matters where the term comes from.
`
`BY MR. ZIVOJNOVIC:
`
`· · ·Q.· Now, a piece of clothing fabric is made up of
`
`many threads; right?
`
`· · ·A.· Probably.
`
`· · · · ·MR. KLEIN:· Object to scope.
`
`· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yeah.· I'm not an expert on -- on
`
`clothing, I'm afraid.
`
`BY MR. ZIVOJNOVIC:
`
`· · ·Q.· I'm just asking your understanding of the plain
`
`meaning of these words.
`
`· · · · ·Is it your understanding that the plain meaning
`
`of clothing fabric means that it's made up of many
`
`threads?
`
`· · · · ·MR. KLEIN:· Object to scope.
`
`· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· As I said, I'm not an expert in
`
`clothing.· I can tell you that the plain meaning of
`
`networking fabric is the cables and boxes that make up
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2005, Page 10 of 91
`
`
`
`the physical infrastructure of your network.
`
`BY MR. ZIVOJNOVIC:
`
`· · ·Q.· What is a computer network?
`
`· · · · ·MR. KLEIN:· Object to form.
`
`· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· So a computer network is the
`
`infrastructure that connects computers to each other.
`
`BY MR. ZIVOJNOVIC:
`
`· · ·Q.· And what is a network topology?
`
`· · ·A.· A network topology is the abstract -- the
`
`abstract thing that tells you which -- which part -- who
`
`connects to whom.· So you could have a computer that is
`
`directly connected to lots of other computers.
`
`· · · · ·You could have, like, one thing in the middle
`
`that directly connects to everyone; that's called a star
`
`topology.· Or you could have a -- everyone could be
`
`connected to everybody else directly; that's called a
`
`crossbar.· Or you could have more complicated
`
`arrangements where in order for one person to talk to
`
`another, you would have to go through intermediaries.
`
`· · · · ·And so the topology tells you who is connected
`
`to whom directly.
`
`· · ·Q.· Is it fair to say that every computer network
`
`has a network topology?
`
`· · ·A.· I think that's fair to say.
`
`· · ·Q.· And in your view, does every network topology
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2005, Page 11 of 91
`
`
`
`qualify as a fabric?
`
`· · ·A.· So I think the fabric is -- is one level below.
`
`Right?· The fabric is how do you physically realize the
`
`topology.· So that -- how do you -- how do you -- what
`
`box is, you know -- what cable, what box, what other
`
`things are in between, how are these things plugged
`
`together.· And the physical things that do this
`
`connectivity is the fabric.
`
`· · ·Q.· Would you agree that every computer network
`
`requires some form of physical connectivity between its
`
`constituent computers?
`
`· · · · ·MR. KLEIN:· Object to form.
`
`· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Well, you could have wireless as
`
`well, right, so -- you could have wireless links in your
`
`network.
`
`BY MR. ZIVOJNOVIC:
`
`· · ·Q.· If computers are in a wireless network, does
`
`that mean they lack a fabric?
`
`· · ·A.· No.· The fabric would contain, you know, the
`
`wireless antennas and base stations and those things.
`
`· · ·Q.· Let me rephrase my earlier question to clarify
`
`that point.
`
`· · · · ·Would you agree that every computer network
`
`requires some form of physical connectivity, wired or
`
`wireless, between its constituent computers?
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2005, Page 12 of 91
`
`
`
`· · ·A.· Yeah, so every -- in order to create the
`
`network, you need some form of connectivity.
`
`· · ·Q.· In that case, would you agree that every
`
`network has a fabric?
`
`· · · · ·MR. KLEIN:· Object to form.
`
`· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· So I do not believe that for
`
`very, very simple, you know, just two things plugged
`
`together, you -- yeah, the word -- I mean, fabric,
`
`meaning the physical structure of your network, yes.
`
`· · · · ·So networking requires a physical underlying
`
`connectivity infrastructure, and that is the fabric.
`
`BY MR. ZIVOJNOVIC:
`
`· · ·Q.· Are you familiar with IEEE 802.3?
`
`· · · · ·MR. KLEIN:· Object to scope.
`
`· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· There's a lot of 802s.· Which one
`
`is dot 3?
`
`BY MR. ZIVOJNOVIC:
`
`· · ·Q.· Would it help if I reference that it's --
`
`relates to ethernet?
`
`· · ·A.· Okay.· So 802.11 is the one that's wireless
`
`that everyone knows the abbreviation.· So I'm familiar
`
`with ethernet.· I'm not familiar in every detail with
`
`the standard.
`
`· · ·Q.· Would you agree, though, that 802.3 is a
`
`standard -- let me start over.
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2005, Page 13 of 91
`
`
`
`· · · · ·Would you agree that ethernet is the standard
`
`for networking computers together?
`
`· · · · ·MR. KLEIN:· Object to scope and form.
`
`· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· So ethernet is a connection
`
`technology that can be deployed within a network.
`
`BY MR. ZIVOJNOVIC:
`
`· · ·Q.· And you're familiar, right, that I can connect
`
`two computers directly via an ethernet cable; right?
`
`· · ·A.· I have done that myself, yes.
`
`· · ·Q.· And when you connect two computers together via
`
`an ethernet cable, they communicate with each other
`
`using the ethernet standard; right?
`
`· · ·A.· I'm sure you could rig up solutions where
`
`you're communicating via the existing physical ethernet
`
`cable using other standards, but -- but, you know, one
`
`of the ways that you could communicate by having two
`
`computers connected in that way would be via the
`
`ethernet standard.
`
`· · ·Q.· And when you connect two computers together
`
`using an ethernet cable, they would each have their own
`
`IP address; right?
`
`· · ·A.· Again, so you're not just connecting them
`
`together via ethernet cable; now you are also
`
`apparently -- right, just by connecting two computers,
`
`they don't get an IP address; right?
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2005, Page 14 of 91
`
`
`
`· · · · ·So you need multiple layers of software on top
`
`that would, you know, give you an IP address and
`
`negotiate lots of different things.· So it's not just a
`
`cable that you connect and, bingo, you have a network.
`
`· · ·Q.· Let me then rephrase the question.
`
`· · · · ·Would you agree that it is possible to
`
`physically connect two computers using an ethernet cable
`
`and configure them to establish a TCP/IP connection
`
`between those two computers?
`
`· · ·A.· With, you know -- there's a lot of things that
`
`you need to do before this happens, but yes, you could
`
`assign IP addresses and connect them in such a way that
`
`you have a network between two computers this way.
`
`· · ·Q.· So in your view, you can have a network that
`
`consists solely of two computers connected to each other
`
`via an ethernet cable?
`
`· · ·A.· That's -- yes.
`
`· · ·Q.· And in your view, if you connect two computers
`
`with each other via an ethernet cable and configured
`
`them to communicate via TCP/IP, you would have a fabric;
`
`right?
`
`· · ·A.· Well, it would be a network.· And the network
`
`fabric in this case is just these two boxes with the
`
`cable.
`
`· · ·Q.· Have you also heard the phrase "fabric" in the
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2005, Page 15 of 91
`
`
`
`context of distributed computing?
`
`· · ·A.· Can you -- can you explain more -- what context
`
`you are referring to?
`
`· · ·Q.· Do you have an understanding of a field called
`
`distributed computing?
`
`· · ·A.· A little bit.
`
`· · ·Q.· What is your understanding of distributed
`
`computing?
`
`· · ·A.· So distributed computing is when you have
`
`computations occurring at multiple different places, and
`
`typically, there are parts of computations happening in
`
`different places.
`
`· · ·Q.· And have you ever heard the phrase "fabric"
`
`used in connection with what you just described as
`
`distributed computing?
`
`· · ·A.· So I believe the word "fabric" is -- is used in
`
`lots of places probably; right?· So -- so, you know,
`
`there's only so many words you can use for physical
`
`infrastructure that is used in -- for some purpose;
`
`right?· So you use subscript of fabric or -- but we're
`
`talking about fabric in the terms -- in the context of
`
`networking here; right?· So the -- the context of, you
`
`know, the fabric here was qualified; right?· So it was
`
`clear that we're talking about fabric in the context of
`
`networking infrastructure.
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2005, Page 16 of 91
`
`
`
`· · ·Q.· Well, I'm asking:· Do you have an understanding
`
`of the term "fabric" in the context of distributed
`
`computing?
`
`· · ·A.· I would not want to answer that under oath
`
`without doing some additional research, you know, to
`
`make sure that my understanding is totally consistent
`
`with -- yeah.
`
`· · ·Q.· Well, I mean, sitting here today, do you have
`
`any understanding of what the word "fabric" means in the
`
`context of distributed computing?
`
`· · ·A.· As I said before, the term "fabric" is very
`
`often used to describe -- in many different fields to
`
`describe just physical -- the physical infrastructure
`
`that something is built out of.
`
`· · ·Q.· Now, have you reviewed Fortinet's Patent Owner
`
`preliminary response submitted in this proceeding?
`
`· · ·A.· I have reviewed it.
`
`· · ·Q.· And have you reviewed the declaration submitted
`
`by Dr. Black in connection with this proceeding?
`
`· · ·A.· I have.
`
`· · ·Q.· And have you reviewed the definition of fabric
`
`from Newton's Telecom Dictionary that was submitted by
`
`Fortinet in this proceeding?
`
`· · ·A.· I have.
`
`· · ·Q.· And have you reviewed the institution decision
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2005, Page 17 of 91
`
`
`
`issued by the patent office in this proceeding?
`
`· · ·A.· I have.
`
`· · ·Q.· Let me start over -- let me actually just
`
`backtrack.· Before I switch -- I want to revisit
`
`something we discussed.
`
`· · · · ·So you agreed, right, that a network could
`
`consist of just two computers; right?
`
`· · ·A.· A very simple -- yeah, two -- a very simple
`
`network, two computers connected.· That's a network.
`
`· · ·Q.· And those two computers could be connected
`
`wirelessly; right?
`
`· · ·A.· They could.
`
`· · ·Q.· If the two computers are connected wirelessly
`
`and the first computer only has a transmitter for
`
`sending data and the second computer only has a receiver
`
`for receiving data, would you still consider that a
`
`computer network?
`
`· · ·A.· It's still two computers networked together.
`
`· · ·Q.· Have you ever used a walkie-talkie?
`
`· · ·A.· When I was a kid, probably, yes.
`
`· · ·Q.· Would you consider a walkie-talkie a type of
`
`computer?
`
`· · · · ·MR. KLEIN:· Object to scope.
`
`· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yeah -- so it's an analog device.
`
`///
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2005, Page 18 of 91
`
`
`
`BY MR. ZIVOJNOVIC:
`
`· · ·Q.· Let me move on to something else.· So I would
`
`now like to mark -- to not interfere with the exhibit
`
`numbers that have been marked in this IPR and submitted
`
`by the parties, I would like to enter as Exhibit A a
`
`copy of the institution decision issued by the patent
`
`office in this proceeding.
`
`· · · · ·(Exhibit A marked for
`
`· · · · ·identification.)
`
`BY MR. ZIVOJNOVIC:
`
`· · ·Q.· Please let me know when you've had a chance to
`
`download and review this document.
`
`· · ·A.· Okay.· Yes, sir.
`
`· · ·Q.· If you could please go to page 3 -- let me
`
`start over again.
`
`· · · · ·Do you recognize Exhibit A?
`
`· · ·A.· Yes.
`
`· · ·Q.· Exhibit A is the institution decision in this
`
`proceeding; right?
`
`· · ·A.· It appears to be, yes.
`
`· · ·Q.· And you've previously reviewed a copy of
`
`Exhibit A; right?
`
`· · ·A.· Yes.
`
`· · ·Q.· If you could please go to page 3 of Exhibit A.
`
`· · ·A.· Yes.
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2005, Page 19 of 91
`
`
`
`· · ·Q.· On page 3, do you see where the patent office
`
`wrote, "The '825 patent describes methods of performing
`
`security operations on network traffic passing through a
`
`cooperative security fabric, CSF, of network security
`
`appliances that coordinate their security operations to
`
`avoid redundant security operations"?
`
`· · ·A.· Is that a question?
`
`· · ·Q.· Do you see that text written there?
`
`· · ·A.· I see that text written there.
`
`· · ·Q.· Do you agree with the patent office's statement
`
`that, "The '825 patent describes methods of performing
`
`security operations on network traffic passing through a
`
`cooperative security fabric, CSF, of network security
`
`appliances that coordinate their security operations to
`
`avoid redundant security operations"?
`
`· · ·A.· Yes.
`
`· · ·Q.· And if you could scroll now down to page 4 of
`
`Exhibit A.
`
`· · · · ·And do you see the patent office reproduced an
`
`image of Figure 2 from the '825 patent?
`
`· · ·A.· I see that.
`
`· · ·Q.· And below that, the patent office wrote,
`
`"Figure 2 shows a topology 200 of a cooperative security
`
`fabric that consists of the network security appliances
`
`of Figure 1."
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2005, Page 20 of 91
`
`
`
`· · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`· · ·A.· I see that.
`
`· · ·Q.· Do you agree with the patent office that
`
`"Figure 2 shows a topology 200 of a cooperative security
`
`fabric that consists of the network security appliances
`
`of Figure 1"?
`
`· · ·A.· I believe they're citing from the patent
`
`itself, yes.
`
`· · ·Q.· And then if you go on to page 5, do you see
`
`where it says, "Root node 220 corresponds to root
`
`network security appliance 121 in Figure 1 and acts in a
`
`wide area network, WAN, role that connects a private
`
`network to other networks or the Internet."
`
`· · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`· · ·A.· I see that.
`
`· · ·Q.· So if we look at Figure 2, traffic from outside
`
`of an -- of the network arrives at Root 220; right?
`
`· · ·A.· It appears that that's what the figure is
`
`trying to explain, yes.
`
`· · ·Q.· And then the cooperative security fabric
`
`processes the traffic that's arrived at Root 2020 [sic];
`
`right?
`
`· · · · ·MR. KLEIN:· Object to form and scope.
`
`· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I'm not sure that -- you're
`
`saying what?· So...
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2005, Page 21 of 91
`
`
`
`BY MR. ZIVOJNOVIC:
`
`· · ·Q.· Well, Figure 2 depicts a cooperative security
`
`fabric; right?
`
`· · · · ·MR. KLEIN:· Object to form.
`
`· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· So which picture -- can you
`
`repeat your question, please?
`
`BY MR. ZIVOJNOVIC:
`
`· · ·Q.· Yes.· Figure 2 depicts a cooperative security
`
`fabric; right?
`
`· · ·A.· Figure 2 shows a topology of a cooperative
`
`security fabric.
`
`· · ·Q.· What's the difference in your view between a --
`
`let me start over.
`
`· · · · ·Is there a difference in your view between a
`
`topology of a cooperative security fabric versus a
`
`cooperate security fabric itself?
`
`· · ·A.· Well, the fabric -- the cooperative security
`
`fabric appears to be, again, the physical
`
`infrastructure; right?· And -- and in this picture,
`
`we're depicting already a -- you know, the -- a slight
`
`abstraction of who connects to whom here.
`
`· · ·Q.· Well, it says here, "Figure 2 shows a
`
`topology"; right?
`
`· · ·A.· Yes.
`
`· · ·Q.· And do you agree that Figure 2 shows a
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2005, Page 22 of 91
`
`
`
`topology?
`
`· · ·A.· Well, the patent states that Picture 2 shows a
`
`topology, so I take that as -- that this is an example
`
`given in the specification, yes.
`
`· · ·Q.· And in your view, fabric means -- let me start
`
`over.
`
`· · · · ·In your view, the word "fabric" refers to a
`
`network topology, does it not?
`
`· · · · ·MR. KLEIN:· Object to form.
`
`· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· So fabric refers to the actual
`
`physical infrastructure; right?· So the whole point
`
`about the fabric is that it's the physical thing that
`
`does things.
`
`BY MR. ZIVOJNOVIC:
`
`· · ·Q.· So is it your view, then, that the fabric is
`
`not itself the topology?
`
`· · ·A.· The fabric expresses the topology in the real
`
`world.· Right?· The fabric is the cables, the boxes, how
`
`they're connected together, and it physically realizes a
`
`topology.· It expresses the topology in the real world.
`
`· · ·Q.· So does Figure 2 in your view depict a
`
`cooperative security fabric?
`
`· · · · ·MR. KLEIN:· Object to form.· Asked and
`
`answered.
`
`· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· The patent specification states
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2005, Page 23 of 91
`
`
`
`that it does.
`
`BY MR. ZIVOJNOVIC:
`
`· · ·Q.· Okay.· And so in the '825 patent, the
`
`cooperative security fabric -- I'm going to move on a
`
`little bit here.
`
`· · · · ·And so in Figure 2, we talked -- incoming
`
`traffic arrives at Root 220; right?
`
`· · ·A.· That is what -- what it says, yes.· So it says
`
`Root 220 is -- corresponds to a root network appliance
`
`and acts in a wide area network role that connects a
`
`private network to other networks or the Internet.
`
`· · ·Q.· And then the incoming traffic is then processed
`
`by the Leaf and Branch nodes in Figure 2; right?
`
`· · ·A.· I mean, so -- depending on where traffic is
`
`going; right?· So you're talking about incoming
`
`traffic -- traffic from where to where?
`
`· · ·Q.· Well, I'm -- so I'm talking about traffic
`
`arrives at Root 220; right?
`
`· · ·A.· So you're talking specifically about some
`
`traffic that arrives at 220 and goes where?
`
`· · ·Q.· Let me start over.
`
`· · · · ·Now, we established that Root node 220 connects
`
`a private network to other networks or the Internet;
`
`right?
`
`· · · · ·MR. KLEIN:· Object to form.
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2005, Page 24 of 91
`
`
`
`· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· That's what it says there.
`
`BY MR. ZIVOJNOVIC:
`
`· · ·Q.· So when traffic arrives from other networks or
`
`the Internet and it's destined for the private network,
`
`that traffic is processed by the Branch and Leaf nodes
`
`shown in Figure 2; right?
`
`· · ·A.· It depends on where the traffic is going;
`
`right?· So this is a specific network that was designed
`
`by a network architect.· And so, I mean, you could have
`
`traffic that is supposed to only go to 220; right?
`
`· · · · ·Are you talking about -- where is the
`
`destination of this traffic?· When we talk -- when we
`
`talk about traffic, we need the source, we need the
`
`destination.
`
`· · ·Q.· Let me now -- let me mark as Exhibit 1002 a
`
`copy of your declaration in this IPR proceeding.
`
`· · · · ·(Exhibit Number 1002 marked for
`
`· · · · ·identification.)
`
`· · · · ·MR. ZIVOJNOVIC:· It's a big file, so it will
`
`take some time to process.
`
`· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Yeah, I already have it, so...
`
`BY MR. ZIVOJNOVIC:
`
`· · ·Q.· For record purposes, I'm still uploading; and
`
`when it pops up, if you would not mind just downloading
`
`it and confirming that it is indeed a copy of your
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2005, Page 25 of 91
`
`
`
`declaration.
`
`· · ·A.· Sure.· Okay.· Yes.· Yes, sir.
`
`· · ·Q.· So do you recognize Exhibit 1002 as a copy of
`
`your declaration?
`
`· · ·A.· I do.
`
`· · ·Q.· And if you could please go to paragraph 50 in
`
`your declaration.
`
`· · ·A.· Yes.
`
`· · ·Q.· Now, at the top of paragraph 50, you write,
`
`"Figure 2, below, depicts a topology of the network
`
`appliances shown in Figure 1"; right?
`
`· · ·A.· I write that.
`
`· · ·Q.· And then at the bottom of that paragraph, you
`
`write, "The '825 patent describes the CSF simply as the
`
`result of appliances coordinating security operations
`
`performed on the network traffic passing through them";
`
`right?
`
`· · ·A.· I'm saying that in the context of the previous
`
`sentence where I'm saying that "the '825 patent does not
`
`define the term CSF or give it a reference numeral,"
`
`yes.· That's what I wrote.
`
`· · ·Q.· So you would agree, then, that, at a minimum, a
`
`CSF must coordinate security operations performed on
`
`network traffic passing through appliances?
`
`· · ·A.· I'm not sure about your -- your use of the
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2005, Page 26 of 91
`
`
`
`word -- term "must."· So we're trying to use the plain,
`
`ordinary meaning of this compound term, right, so we
`
`have -- we know what a fabric is.· We know what security
`
`is.· We know what cooperative is.· And so the CSF has
`
`the -- is apparently -- has the objective of
`
`coordinating security operations on the network traffic
`
`passing through them.
`
`· · ·Q.· Well, you applied an understanding of CSF when
`
`you analyzed the prior art; right?
`
`· · ·A.· Yes.
`
`· · ·Q.· And under your understanding of CSF, do you
`
`agree that it requires coordinating security operations
`
`performed on network traffic passing through appliances?
`
`· · · · ·MR. KLEIN:· Object to form.
`
`· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· So the objective is that you
`
`have, you know, multiple things in the -- in the fabric
`
`that cooperate for the purpose of security.· Right?
`
`That's the -- that's the plain, ordinary meaning.· So --
`
`right?· So I'm not sure I can think of something right
`
`now, but one of the ways that you can have parts of a
`
`fabric cooperating for the purpose of security is having
`
`appliances coordinate security operations.
`
`BY MR. ZIVOJNOVIC:
`
`· · ·Q.· Now, I want to drill down a bit more on the
`
`network traffic at issue here.· And you brought up the
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2005, Page 27 of 91
`
`
`
`point that we need to define the source and destination
`
`of network traffic; right?
`
`· · ·A.· I brought that up in a specific -- because you
`
`asked me a specific question that could not be answered
`
`without naming what is the source and what is the
`
`destination.
`
`· · ·Q.· Well, in the context of the '825 patent, the
`
`source of the traffic or destination is the Internet or
`
`other network outside of the private network; right?
`
`· · · · ·MR. KLEIN:· Object to form.
`
`· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I -- I don't think you're
`
`talking -- you're saying that all traffic in the '825
`
`patent, the source is the -- outside the Internet -- the
`
`outside?
`
`BY MR. ZIVOJNOVIC:
`
`· · ·Q.· I said either the source or the destination in
`
`the context of a coordinated security operation is the
`
`Internet or other out- -- external network; right?
`
`· · ·A.· I'm not sure where you get that from.· Right?
`
`So -- so we have a network here, and the network is just
`
`described as having a coordinate -- sorry, what was the
`
`word?· I'm getting -- a cooperative security fabric.
`
`And, you know, the patent describes a fabric, and some
`
`of the prior art that I'm citing also, you know,
`
`describes a general network.
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2005, Page 28 of 91
`
`
`
`· · · · ·And then we have claims, and the claims are
`
`really only interested in specific streams of packets
`
`traveling from one source to one destination.· So that's
`
`a -- that's -- without further specifying where the
`
`source or destination is.· So, you know -- so I don't
`
`think, you know -- what was your question again?· Can
`
`you repeat this?
`
`· · ·Q.· Let me move on to a different topic.· If you
`
`could please go back to Exhibit A, the copy of the
`
`institution decision.
`
`· · ·A.· Okay.
`
`· · ·Q.· And this time if you could please go to page 9.
`
`· · ·A.· Yes.
`
`· · ·Q.· And do you see where the patent office wrote,
`
`"At this stage of the proceeding, based on the current
`
`record, we interpret 'fabric' as 'a network topology
`
`such as the physical structure of a switch or network.'
`
`This is consistent with an ordinary, customary meaning."
`
`· · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`· · ·A.· I see that.
`
`· · ·Q.· And then do you see that the patent office then
`
`cites Newton's Telecom Dictionary in that paragraph?
`
`· · · · ·Do you see that?
`
`· · ·A.· So that's Exhibit 2003?· Is that what you're --
`
`is that the dictionary?
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2005, Page 29 of 91
`
`
`
`· · ·Q.· Well, let me ask you.
`
`· · · · ·Do you recognize Exhibit 2003 as Newton's
`
`Telecom Dictionary?
`
`· · ·A.· I -- I just want to make sure.· So let me -- I
`
`have it -- I have the exhibits here.· I can look at it
`
`and make sure that --
`
`· · ·Q.· Yes, please do.
`
`· · ·A.· Okay.· Yes, that is the dictionary.· Correct.
`
`· · ·Q.· Okay.· So here, the patent office is citing the
`
`Newton's Telecom Dictionary for the ordinary and
`
`customary meaning of fabric; right?
`
`· · ·A.· Yes.
`
`· · ·Q.· Do you agree that the definition in Newton's
`
`Telecom Dictionary reflects the ordinary and customary
`
`meaning of fabric?
`
`· · ·A.· It's consistent with -- yes.
`
`· · ·Q.· Let me now mark as Exhibit 1001 a copy of the
`
`'825 patent.
`
`· · · · ·(Exhibit Number 1001 marked for
`
`· · · · ·identification.)
`
`· · · · ·MR. ZIVOJNOVIC:· By the way, actually -- we've
`
`been going not quite an hour, but we've been close to an
`
`hour.· Since we're moving on to a different exhibit, now
`
`would be a convenient time to take a break.· But I'm
`
`happy to also keep going if you prefer.· I just want to
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2005, Page 30 of 91
`
`
`
`flag --
`
`· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· I'll take a five-minute break,
`
`please.
`
`· · · · ·MR. ZIVOJNOVIC:· All right.· Let's do it.
`
`· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· Okay.
`
`· · · · ·MR. ZIVOJNOVIC:· Let's go off record, please.
`
`· · · · ·(Off the record.)
`
`BY MR. ZIVOJNOVIC:
`
`· · ·Q.· So, Dr. Franz, have you had a chance to
`
`download and review Exhibit 1001?
`
`· · ·A.· Yes.
`
`· · ·Q.· Exhibit 1001 is a copy of the '825 patent;
`
`right?
`
`· · ·A.· Yes.
`
`· · ·Q.· I want to start by looking at Figure 1, if you
`
`could please go there.
`
`· · ·A.· Yes.
`
`· · ·Q.· So if we look at Figure 1 on the right, do you
`
`see appliances 121, 130, and then 140?
`
`· · · · ·MR. KLEIN:· Object to form.
`
`· · · · ·THE WITNESS:· So I see -- I see there are boxes
`
`labeled 121, 130, and what was the third one?
`
`BY MR. ZIVOJNOVIC:
`
`· · ·Q.· 140.
`
`· · ·A.· And 140 with a, b, and c.
`
`Fortinet Ex. 2005, Page 31 of 91
`
Accessing this document will incur an additional charge of $.
After purchase, you can access this document again without charge.
Accept $ Charge
Still Working On It
This document is taking longer than usual to download. This can happen if we need to contact the court directly to obtain the document and their servers are running slowly.
Give it another minute or two to complete, and then try the refresh button.
A few More Minutes ... Still Working
It can take up to 5 minutes for us to download a document if the court servers are running slowly.
Thank you for your continued patience.
This document could not be displayed.
We could not find this document within its docket. Please go back to the docket page and check the link. If that does not work, go back to the docket and refresh it to pull the newest information.
Your account does not support viewing this document.
You need a Paid Account to view this document. Click here to change your account type.
Your account does not support viewing this document.
Set your membership
status to view this document.
With a Docket Alarm membership, you'll
get a whole lot more, including:
- Up-to-date information for this case.
- Email alerts whenever there is an update.
- Full text search for other cases.
- Get email alerts whenever a new case matches your search.
One Moment Please
The filing “” is large (MB) and is being downloaded.
Please refresh this page in a few minutes to see if the filing has been downloaded. The filing will also be emailed to you when the download completes.
Your document is on its way!
If you do not receive the document in five minutes, contact support at support@docketalarm.com.
Sealed Document
We are unable to display this document, it may be under a court ordered seal.
If you have proper credentials to access the file, you may proceed directly to the court's system using your government issued username and password.
Access Government Site
