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`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
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`_________________
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`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`_________________
`
`APPLE INC.,
`
` Petitioner,
`
` v.
`
`ZENTIAN LIMITED,
`
` Patent Owner
`
`_________________
`
`Inter Partes Review Case No. IPR2023-00037
`
`U.S. Patent No. 10,971,140
`
`Inter Partes Review Case No. IPR2023-00033
`
`U.S. Patent No. 7,587,319
`
` REMOTE DEPOSITION
`
` of
`
` CHRISTOPHER SCHMANDT
`
`Reported by:
`
`Robin LaFemina, RPR, CLR
`
`Job No.: 7862
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`229b546b-a925-468b-a88f-daea5df568e8
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`
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
`_________________
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
`_________________
`
`APPLE INC.,
`
` Petitioner,
`
` v.
`
`ZENTIAN LIMITED,
`
` Patent Owner
`
`_________________
`
`Inter Partes Review Case No. IPR2023-00037
`
`U.S. Patent No. 10,971,140
`
`Inter Partes Review Case No. IPR2023-00033
`
`U.S. Patent No. 7,587,319
`
` REMOTE DEPOSITION
`
` of
`
` CHRISTOPHER SCHMANDT
`
`Reported by:
`
`Robin LaFemina, RPR, CLR
`
`Job No.: 7862
`
`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
`212-400-8845 - Depo@TransPerfect.com
`
`229b546b-a925-468b-a88f-daea5df568e8
`
`
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`Page 2
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` September 6, 2023
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` 11:05 a.m.
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` REMOTE DEPOSITION of
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`CHRISTOPHER SCHMANDT, held via Zoom, with
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`all parties appearing from their respective
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`locations, before Robin LaFemina, a
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`Registered Professional Reporter, Certified
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`LiveNote Reporter and Notary Public within
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`and for the State of New York.
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`Page 3
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`APPEARANCES:
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`(ALL PARTIES APPEARING REMOTELY)
`
`ERISE IP
`
`Attorneys for Petitioner
`
` 5299 DTC Boulevard
`
` Suite 1340
`
` Greenwood Village, Colorado 80111
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`BY: CHRISTINA CANINO, ESQ.
`
` christina.canino@eriseip.com
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`ERISE IP
`
`Attorneys for Petitioner
`
` 7015 College Boulevard
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` Suite 700
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` Overland Park, Kansas 66211
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`BY: JENNIFER C. BAILEY, ESQ.
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` jennifer.bailey@eriseip.com
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`(Continued on following page)
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`APPEARANCES: (C'td.)
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`(ALL PARTIES APPEARING REMOTELY)
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`NOZOORI PC
`
`Attorneys for Patent Owner
`
` 11601 Wilshire Boulevard
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` Suite 2170
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` Los Angeles, California 90025
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` (310) 975-7074
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`BY: KAYVAN B. NOROOZI, ESQ.
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` knoroozi@noroozilaw.com
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` PETER KNOPS, ESQ.
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` pknops@noroozilaw.com
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` THE COURT REPORTER: Good
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` morning. Today's date is September 6,
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` 2023.
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` My name is Robin LaFemina and I
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` am the court reporter representing
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` TransPerfect Legal Solutions.
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` This deposition is being taken
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` remotely and the court reporter will
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` not be physically present with the
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` witness whose deposition is being
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` taken.
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` The parties agree not to
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` challenge the validity of any oath
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` administered by the court reporter,
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` even if the court reporter is a notary
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` of a state other than where the
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` deponent is currently physically
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` located.
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` Would each attendee, starting
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` with the examining attorney, please
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` indicate your agreement by stating
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` your name, your firm affiliation and
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` your agreement on the record, after
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` which I will swear in the witness.
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` MR. NOROOZI: Kayvan Noroozi,
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` Noroozi PC, representing Zentian
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` Limited. We agree.
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` MS. CANINO: Christina Canino
`
` with Erise IP representing Apple Inc.
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` We agree.
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` THE COURT REPORTER: Raise your
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` right hand, please, Mr. Schmandt.
`
` Do you swear the testimony you
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` are about to give will be the truth,
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` the whole truth, and nothing but the
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` truth, and do you acknowledge that
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` although I am not physically present in
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` the room with you, that this oath is
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` administered with the same force and
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` effect as though I were?
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` THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
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` THE COURT REPORTER: You may
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` begin, counsel.
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`CHRISTOPHER SCHMANDT,
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` called as a Witness, having been first
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` duly sworn by Robin LaFemina, a Notary
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` Public within and for the State of New
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` York, was examined and testified as
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` follows:
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`EXAMINATION BY
`
`MR. NOROOZI:
`
` Q. Good morning, Mr. Schmandt.
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`How did you prepare for this deposition?
`
` A. Before I dive into that, I'd
`
`like to get a few corrections from my
`
`declaration on the record. Is this an
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`appropriate time to do that?
`
` Q. Okay. What's the nature of the
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`corrections? Is it typographical or --
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. -- something else?
`
` A. Typos.
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` Q. Okay. Go ahead. Walk me
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`through the areas you'd like to make
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`corrections to.
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` A. Okay. These are both in the
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`'140 declaration.
`
` Q. Okay.
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` A. Section X, i.e. 10, it says --
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` Q. Sorry. Could you give me a
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`paragraph number?
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` A. No. This is the header. This
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` Schmandt
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`is in the Table of Contents.
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` Q. I see.
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` A. And it will also be imported
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`into that page number which we can do
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`afterwards, if you'd like. Okay? So the
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`header that says Section X, change Ground 4
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`to Ground 3.
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` Q. In the version that I have, it
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`says Opinions Regarding Ground 3. Let's
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`see. I'm looking at the Table of Contents,
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`so -- and I'm also looking at the
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`declaration itself at exhibit page 101. It
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`says Section X, Opinions Regarding Ground 3
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`and then subsection A, claims 53 and 58-59.
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` A. Sorry. This is the '140?
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` Q. I believe. Oh, is it --
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` A. There is no claim 50s in the
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`'140.
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` Q. Got it. Okay.
`
` So okay, Section X with respect
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`to the '140, it says opinions regarding
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`Ground 4 and it should say Ground 3?
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` A. Correct.
`
` Q. Page 93?
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` Schmandt
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` A. Well, I'm looking at the Table
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`of Contents, but yes, it should also be on
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`page 93.
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` Q. Okay. What else?
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` A. Section XI, that is 11, it
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`should say Opinions Regarding Claim 5, I'm
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`reading off of my notes here, so instead of
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`Ground 6, it's Ground 5. And subsection A
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`should read claim 6, not claim 4. And that
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`should also be carried through under page
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`94.
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` Q. Anything else?
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` A. That's all. Thank you.
`
` Q. In reviewing your two decs for
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`the '319 patent and '140 patent, prior to
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`today, did you identify any areas of
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`substantive testimony that you want to
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`correct or modify?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. In preparing for today's
`
`deposition, did you identify any documents
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`that are not exhibits in the '140 patent
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`proceeding or the '319 patent proceeding
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`that you intend to introduce into either
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` Schmandt
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`proceeding going forward?
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` A. No. I think you may have
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`phrased that in terms of exhibits. I looked
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`at the Patent Owner Preliminary Response and
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`the Decision. I don't know if those have
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`exhibit numbers.
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` Q. Right. I'm referring
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`specifically to exhibits from you, meaning
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`evidence on your behalf in support of your
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`opinions through testimony, whether already
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`expressed or things that you intend to
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`express.
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` A. And I think the question was
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`whether I intended to introduce anything
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`additional. If that is my understanding of
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`the question, my answer is no.
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` Q. In preparing for today's
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`depositions, are there any further
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`explanations or articulations that you
`
`decided that you should provide or would
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`like to provide that are not already set
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`forth in your declarations?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Let's start with the '140 patent
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` Schmandt
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`declaration. This is in Case No.
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`IPR2023-00037, and it's Exhibit 1003 in that
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`proceeding, and I'd like to direct you to
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`paragraph 4 of your declaration.
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` A. Sure. Okay.
`
` Q. You said in paragraph 4, I built
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`the first conventional computer system
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`utilizing speech recognition and synthesis
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`("Put That There") starting in 1980.
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` Do you see that?
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` A. Yes.
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` Q. What is your basis for saying
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`that you built the first one?
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` A. Because I don't know of any
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`other one. To be perfectly clear, there was
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`a system out of Bell Labs by Levinson that
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`was airline reservation information with a
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`speech interface and he and I have talked
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`about it and decided that we were
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`simultaneously the first to do this, so he
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`should -- it should -- maybe shouldn't say
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`first, it should say tied for the first or
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`one of the first.
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` Q. Okay.
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` Schmandt
`
` You say you built this
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`conversational computer system utilizing
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`speech recognition and synthesis.
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` What do you mean by built?
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` A. I did not specify the hardware.
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`The hardware was specified as part of the
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`research proposal. I accepted the hardware
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`into the lab, I wrote device drivers for
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`said hardware so that my software could
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`communicate with it, and then I wrote half
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`the software for the Put That There system,
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`the other half being written by a colleague.
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` Q. And what was the Put That There
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`system capable of doing?
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` A. The Put That There system
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`accepted voice and gesture as input. The
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`target application was manipulating objects
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`in a geographic database, so there were
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`spatial extents. The Put That There system
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`took voice and gesture as inputs. When it
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`took the inputs, it built what's known in
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`the art as a dialogue frame using a slot and
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`filler approach where a semantic model
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`parses the speech and tries to take each
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`word and use it in a context of a model of
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`user intent, so it would build a dialogue
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`frame and then the application interface to
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`the geospatial model could look at that
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`dialogue frame and determine whether it was
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`complete. If it was complete, the system
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`could perform the action which was usually
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`graphical, but could be auditory. If it was
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`not complete, then the dialogue system would
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`indicate which parts of the frame needed to
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`be filled. The system would then speak back
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`to the user and ask a question directed to
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`filling the parts of the dialogue frame that
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`were missing or misrecognized, the user
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`would say something or point at something,
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`and this process would repeat until there
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`was a dialogue frame that had adequate
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`information to perform some action within
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`the confines of the application for which it
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`was written.
`
` Q. In the next sentence of your
`
`paragraph 4, you say, I built one of the
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`first graphical user interfaces for audio
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`editing, employing keyword recognition on
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`voice memos in 1982 (Intelligent Ear).
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` What do you mean by I built in
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`this context?
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` A. Again, with one colleague, I
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`came up with the idea, I came up with the
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`techniques of doing the keyword recognition
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`and I implemented half of the software.
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` Q. You used hardware that someone
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`else had built?
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` A. Yes. I actually used the same
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`hardware that I -- some of the same hardware
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`that I had used in the Put That There system.
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` Q. In the next sentence, you say, I
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`built the first research-grade unified
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`messaging system, etc.
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` What do you mean by I built in
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`that context?
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` A. I came up with the idea. I
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`can't claim sole ownership of the idea. The
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`idea was certainly refined by conversation
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`among my peers at the laboratory. I took on
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`a grad student to work on it with me. I
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`acquired and incorporated a new speech
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`synthesizer and I wrote half the software,
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` Schmandt
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`roughly half.
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` Q. Did you build the hardware?
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` A. Some of the hardware.
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` Q. What aspects?
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` A. There was -- so there were a
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`number of audio interconnects and telephone
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`line interconnects. This was a system that
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`could answer the phone and take voice
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`messages, and if I called in, it could play
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`me those voice messages and it could play me
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`synthetic speech messages over the phone, so
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`it needed a telephone line interface which I
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`built and it needed some switchable audio
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`interconnects so these various audio devices
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`could get inputs and outputs from the phone
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`line as needed.
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` Q. Did you build the processor and
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`memory architecture?
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` A. No.
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` Q. Where did you get that?
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` A. That was applied by the Magic 6
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`operating system running on an Interdata
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`Model 732 computer, mini computer.
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` Q. What kind of grad student helped
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`you with the project that you call Phone
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`Slave?
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` A. A good one. I'm not sure what
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`you're asking. He was male.
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` Q. Let me --
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` A. He's now dead.
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` Q. I'm sorry to hear that. I'm
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`very sorry to hear that. Let me specify.
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` Was it a Ph.D. graduate student
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`or a master's graduate student who helped
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`you with Phone Slave?
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` A. A master's.
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` Q. And what did the graduate
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`student provide?
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` A. He wrote half the code.
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` Q. For doing what?
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` A. Oh, well the system as a whole
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`had a graphical user interface and a voice
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`user interface. So the graphical user
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`interface had to display the messages, it
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`was a touch sensitive interface, so it would
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`accept user interaction. So he built a
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`parser, specifically he built a parser that
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`would lay out the screen and detect where a
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`user had touched, and on the basis of where
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`the user had touched would formulate a
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`command. This is interesting because I
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`wrote the voice user interface, which was
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`the user talking to the system, and we made
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`sure through this compiled -- compiled code
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`that the -- when the speech recognizer --
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`for example, when the speech recognizer --
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`when I said play my messages to the speech
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`recognizer, that was the equivalent of the
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`user touching a column of all messages, so
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`those were reduced to the same command, the
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`command was a symbolic, it was a number.
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`Okay? So the front end would generate the
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`same number whether I touched a column of
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`messages or said play my messages, that
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`command could then be fed into the
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`application support system, which would
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`actually play the audio or synthesize the
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`text without having to write two versions of
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`that, one for voice input and one for speech
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`input, so he wrote that parser part and he
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`wrote most of the graphical user interface,
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`and I wrote the voice user interface and the
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`code that would actually answer the phone.
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`So this was an interesting system in that it
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`didn't just say, hi, you've reached Chris
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`Schmandt, please leave a message, beep.
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`This was in the early days of answering
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`machines and voicemail. So it would
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`actually say, hello, Chris's telephone,
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`who's calling, please? And it would record
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`that snippet.
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` And then it would say, what's
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`this in reference to?
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` And it asked a series of five
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`questions, and because it asked a series of
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`five questions, later on I could say who
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`left messages, and it could simply play
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`those audio snippets, and there was a
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`sociological aspect of this as well because
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`in -- at least in the U.S., the protocol is
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`that the called party says hello, and then
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`it is the obligation of the calling party to
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`identify themselves, so if you answer the
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`phone saying who's calling, please, people
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`answer that. And that was the hook. You
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`know, once they started leaving a message,
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`they would continue to leave the message as
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`opposed to hang up and think about it and
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`maybe call back, maybe not.
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` Q. Okay.
`
` So what was the nature of the
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`speech recognition capability of the Phone
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`Slave system that you say you built in 1983?
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` A. I'm sorry. What was the
`
`question? You froze for a second. Could
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`you repeat the question, please?
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` THE COURT REPORTER: I think he
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` is frozen now as well.
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` THE WITNESS: I think so.
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` MR. KNOPS: Hold on. I'll text
`
` him to let him know.
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` (Pause in the proceedings.
`
`CONTINUED BY MR. NOROOZI:
`
` Q. Can you guys hear me?
`
` A. Now we can hear you. I did not
`
`hear the question.
`
` Q. Thank you.
`
` What was the nature of the
`
`speech recognition capability of the Phone
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`Slave system that you say you built in 1983?
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` A. Speaker independent, recognizer
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`connected speech, 120 word vocabulary.
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` Q. And did your graduate student
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`build the speech recognition software, did
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`you build the speech recognition software,
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`did you both do it, or did you get it from
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`somewhere?
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` A. No, we got it. It was a
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`product, NEC-DP100.
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` Q. With respect to Back Seat Driver
`
`in paragraph 4 of your declaration, you say
`
`that along with your students, you built the
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`first system for real time spoken driving
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`directions.
`
` What do you mean by you built?
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` A. In that case, I architected
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`the -- I came up with the concept and
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`architected the system, although it was
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`built on some previous work that he had
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`done. In that system, he wrote pretty much
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`all the code.
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` Q. Can I ask you to specify who he
`
`is?
`
` A. Jim Davis. James Raymond Davis.
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` Q. And why do you refer to him as
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`he? Is he someone that you have already
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`spoken about today?
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` A. I -- I don't get your question
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`at all. He was male --
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` Q. No, no.
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` A. -- so I call him he.
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` Q. Sorry. I think my connection
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`cut out.
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` Is this person, Mr. Davis,
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`somebody that you already alluded to earlier
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`today?
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` A. No.
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` Q. Okay.
`
` The reason I asked is because
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`you said he and that suggested to me that
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`you had an antecedent basis for this he in
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`your earlier testimony. So to clarify,
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`Mr. Davis is not someone that you've already
`
`alluded to today before we asked about Back
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`Seat Driver?
`
` A. Not before --
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` MS. CANINO: Objection. Form.
`
` A. -- we asked about Back Seat
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`Driver. If you wanted to know whether there
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`was an antecedent basis, we could read back
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`my response, but I don't think it matters.
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`This was the only project listed here which
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`Jim Davis worked on.
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` Q. And just so you understand, I'm
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`not trying to play word games. I'm asking
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`because I want to understand if there's a
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`common collaborator or graduate student that
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`worked on the prior projects that we talked
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`about who also worked on Back Seat Driver
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`that you were referring to.
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` A. No. Would you like to know the
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`names of the people who worked on the prior
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`projects?
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` Q. No. Don't need to.
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` A. Okay.
`
` Q. Thank you.
`
` Did you design the processor to
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`memory architecture for Back Seat Driver?
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` A. Only indirectly in terms of
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`working at the architecture, so the system
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`could provide realtime driving directions.
`
`The first version of the system, the
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`software ran on a symbolics Lisp machine,
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`Lisp, L-I-S-P, machine that was in our lab,
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`and the vehicle would send a location of
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`velocity every second over a telephone
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`connection. And then there was another
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`telephone connection to send the voice back
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`to the vehicle, but the problem was cellular
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`modems in 1988 weren't so great, and
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`sometimes the data would drop out and we
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`wouldn't get any data from the car for eight
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`to ten seconds. Ordinarily that doesn't
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`matter, but if you're traveling at 40 miles
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`an hour, you might miss a turn, so that had
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`issues, so Jim and I worked out that we
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`could take the latest SPARCstation
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`processor, which was at that point a
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`SPARCstation 1+ that was just able to run
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`common Lisp and put that in a vehicle
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`although we needed to build a vibration
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`damping platform because it had an internal
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`hard disk. So I didn't design SPARCstation 1
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`or SPARCstation 1+, but Jim and I had to
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`design the physical setup for how the
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`machine was placed in the car.
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` Q. Did you write the speech
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`recognition software for Back Seat Driver?
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` A. Oh, no, I didn't.
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` Q. Where did you get that?
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` A. There actually wasn't any
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`recognition software in Back Seat Driver,
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`the input was touchtones, so you would spell
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`a street name with touchtones. The output
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`was synthetic speech because, of course, it
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`was real time spoken driving directions.
`
` Q. In the next sentence of
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`paragraph 4 of your '140 patent declaration,
`
`you refer to Conversational Desktop 1985,
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`Chatter 1993 and MailCall 1996.
`
` Did you build the processor to
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`memory architecture in any of those systems
`
`that you reference?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Did you write the speech
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`recognition software for any of those
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`systems?
`
` A. For the Chatter system, we had
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`software -- my recollection is we had
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`software recognition from some small company
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`which we had to modify to put into an
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`appropriate software architecture with their
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`help for our application, but we did not
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`rewrite the recognizer. The Conversational
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`Desktop used the aforementioned DP200
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`recognizer and MailCall used a recognizer
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`from -- recognizer software from Texas
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`Instruments called Dagger.
`
` Q. And what about Chatter 1993?
`
` A. That was the one I was just
`
`talking about. We took some small company's
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`recognizer and we made some modifications to
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`it, but I would not say we actually changed
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`the recognition algorithm. I think we
`
`worked mostly with the API.
`
` Q. And with the assistance of the
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`company who wrote the speech recognizer;
`
`right?
`
` A. I can't remember exactly how
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`that worked. Sorry. That was 30 years ago.
`
` Q. What processor and memory
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`hardware did you use for Conversational
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`Desktop 1985, Chatter 1993 and MailCall
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`1996, if you recall?
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` MS. CANINO: Objection --
`
` A. Conversational --
`
` MS. CANINO: -- form.
`
` A. Conversational Desktop was
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`Magic -- 1985. 1985. It was a hybrid of
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`Magic 6 operating system running on
`
`PerkinElmer 3220 computers, some version of
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`DOS running on a PC and Berkeley UNIX
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`running on one of the early multi-bus Sun
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`microsystems computer, so Conversational
`
`Desktop had multiple stations. It was
`
`designed for two parties to interact with
`
`each other. It was easy to whip the code
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`off for the PerkinElmer, we had great
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`software to do that, but we only had one of
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`those, so we had to build a version of the
`
`software to run under UNIX because we were
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`then switching to the Sun computers. It was
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`all a very distributed and network system.
`
` Q. Did you write the speech
`
`recognition software for Put That There?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. What did you use for that?
`
` A. NEC-DP100.
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` Q. Referring to the systems you say
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`you built for handheld mobile devices in
`
`paragraph 4 of your declaration, those being
`
`ComMotion 1999, Nomadic Radio 2000,
`
`Impromptu 2001, and Symphony 2004, did you
`
`build the processor to memory architecture
`
`for any of those systems?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Did you use existing processor
`
`to memory architecture that was in the
`
`relevant mobile handheld devices?
`
` A. Well, we had to build these.
`
`ComMotion, we had to build the hardware. We
`
`used an existing processor board. The same
`
`with Nomadic Radio. Impromptu used a
`
`combination of software that was native on
`
`the Hewlett Packard IPAQ, that's I-P-A-Q,
`
`and some software that we wrote on our own
`
`UNIX machines for server. And Symphony, I
`
`can't remember the details of. I can't
`
`remember whether the recognizer was done,
`
`that was a server-based system as well. I
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`can't remember the details of that.
`
` Q. For the speech recognition and
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`handheld mobile devices systems identified
`
`in paragraph 4 of your declaration, did you
`
`build the speech recognizer software for any
`
`of those systems?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Where did you get the speech
`
`recognition software?
`
` A. Those came from all over the
`
`place. Nomadic Radio was open -- Nomadic
`
`Radio was an AT&T recognizer, I believe the
`
`ComMotion was Open Source Sphinx. I can't
`
`remember the other two.
`
` Q. In the next sentence of your
`
`declaration, you refer to Memory Prosthesis
`
`2004. Did you build the memory and
`
`processor architecture for Memory Prosthesis
`
`2004?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Did you write the speech
`
`recognition software for Memory Prosthesis
`
`2004?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. Where did you get the speech
`
`recognition software for Memory Prosthesis
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`2004?
`
` A. I believe we used a network
`
`version of IBM ViaVoice.
`
` Q. And where did you get the
`
`processor to memory architecture for Memory
`
`Prosthesis 2004?
`
` A. So the -- there were a number of
`
`parts -- there were a number of parts to
`
`that system. Some parts of that system ran
`
`real time on Hewlett Packard IPAQ, which I
`
`mentioned before. The recognition was all
`
`done offline over a network. On UNIX work
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`station, I think it was a NeXT computer,
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`N-E-X-T, but I'm not sure.
`
` Q. Was the Memory Prosthesis 2004 a
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`real time speech recognition system?
`
` A. Oh, no. Well, some parts of it
`
`worked in real time, but the whole test, it
`
`was a memory prosthesis, the whole test was
`
`would it help you remember something when
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`you looked back two years later.
`
` Q. So it did not need to be real
`
`time and it was not real time; fair?
`
` A. The --
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`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
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` MS. CANINO: Objection. Form.
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` A. How close to real time it was
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`would be a question of network latency, but
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`it was not a design constraint.
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` Q. With respect to Synthetic News
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`19 -- withdrawn.
`
` With respect to Synthetic News
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`Radio 1999, did you build the processor to
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`memory architecture for that system?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. With respect to Synthetic News
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`Radio 1999, did you build the speech
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`recognition software for that system?
`
` A. Well, there were several aspects
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`of it, meaning how broadly you used the term
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`recognition. So basically what we were
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`doing was capturing newscasts and doing
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`basically a rough recognition on them using
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`large vocabulary speaker independent
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`recognizer, and then we were processing, and
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`I would consider this to be, based on the
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`literature that I read, I would consider
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`this to be part of the recognition stage.
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`We took those results which were very noisy
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`TransPerfect Legal Solutions
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`and did latent semantic analysis of those
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`results. Latent semantic analysis attempts
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`to identify words that are different from
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`other words, it attempts to cluster things
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`by topic, so our goal here was not to
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`understand every word, but to understand the
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`topic, so we wanted to find in hourly
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`newscasts which of the audio was
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`continuation of a
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