`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` AMAZON.COM, INC., AMAZON WEB
`
` SERVICES, INC., AND
`
` AMAZON.COM SERVICES LLC,
`
`Petitioner,
`
`vs.
`
` WAG ACQUISITION, LLC,
`
`Patent Owner.
`
` ____________________________/
`
`No. IPR2022-01430
`
`IPR2022-01433
`
`DEPOSITION OF W. LEO HOARTY
`
`Remote Zoom Proceedings
`
`Morgan Hill, California
`
`Thursday, August 3, 2023
`
`REPORTED BY:
`
`LESLIE ROCKWOOD ROSAS, RPR, CSR 3462
`
`Pages 1 - 153
`
`Job No. 6031847
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`Calendar-CA@veritext.com 866-299-5127
`
`Page 1
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3 4 5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Amazon / WAG Acquisition
`Exhibit 1033
`Page 1
`
`
`
` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`
` AMAZON.COM, INC., AMAZON WEB
`
` SERVICES, INC., AND
`
` AMAZON.COM SERVICES LLC,
`
` Petitioner,
`
` vs. No. IPR2022-01430
`
` IPR2022-01433
`
` WAG ACQUISITION, LLC,
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3 4 5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
` Patent Owner.
`
` ____________________________/
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` Deposition of W. LEO HOARTY, taken on behalf of
`
`Petitioner, Remote Zoom Proceedings from Morgan Hill,
`
`California, beginning at 9:41 a.m. Pacific Daylight Time
`
`and ending at 4:09 p.m. Pacific Daylight Time, on
`
`Thursday, August 3, 2023, before Leslie Rockwood Rosas,
`
`RPR, Certified Shorthand Reporter No. 3462.
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`Calendar-CA@veritext.com 866-299-5127
`
`Page 2
`
`Amazon / WAG Acquisition
`Exhibit 1033
`Page 2
`
`
`
`A P P E A R A N C E S :
`
`F O R T H E P E T I T I O N E R :
`
`F E N W I C K & W E S T L L P
`
`B Y : K E V I N X . M C G A N N , E S Q .
`
`9 0 2 B r o a d w a y , 1 8 t h F l o o r
`
`N e w Y o r k , N e w Y o r k 1 0 0 1 0 - 6 0 3 5
`
`( 2 1 2 ) 4 3 0 - 2 7 4 5 ( M r . M c G a n n )
`
`k m c g a n n @ f e n w i c k . c o m
`
`- a n d -
`
`B Y : J O H N A T H A N C H A I , E S Q .
`
`8 0 1 C a l i f o r n i a S t r e e t
`
`M o u n t a i n V i e w , C a l i f o r n i a 9 4 0 4 1
`
`( 6 5 0 ) 3 3 5 - 7 8 0 4
`
`j c h a i @ f e n w i c k . c o m
`
`- a n d -
`
`B Y : B R I A N M . H O F F M A N , E S Q .
`
`5 5 5 C a l i f o r n i a S t r e e t
`
`S a n F r a n c i s c o , C a l i f o r n i a 9 4 1 0 4
`
`( 4 1 5 ) 8 7 5 - 2 4 8 4
`
`b h o f f m a n @ f e n w i c k . c o m
`
`1
`
`2 3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`1 0
`
`1 1
`
`1 2
`
`1 3
`
`1 4
`
`1 5
`
`1 6
`
`1 7
`
`1 8
`
`1 9
`
`2 0
`
`2 1
`
`2 2
`
`2 3
`
`2 4
`
`2 5
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`Calendar-CA@veritext.com 866-299-5127
`
`Page 3
`
`Amazon / WAG Acquisition
`Exhibit 1033
`Page 3
`
`
`
`A P P E A R A N C E S ( C o n t i n u e d ) :
`
`F O R T H E P A T E N T O W N E R a n d T H E W I T N E S S :
`
` L I S T O N A B R A M S O N L L P
`
` B Y : R O N A L D A B R A M S O N , E S Q .
`
` M . M I C H A E L L E W I S , E S Q .
`
` 4 0 5 L e x i n g t o n A v e n u e , 4 6 t h F l o o r
`
` N e w Y o r k , N e w Y o r k 1 0 1 7 4
`
` ( 2 1 2 ) 2 5 7 - 1 6 4 3 ( M r . A b r a m s o n )
`
` ( 2 1 2 ) 2 5 7 - 1 6 3 9 ( M r . L e w i s )
`
` R o n . A b r a m s o n @ l i s t o n a b r a m s o n . c o m
`
` M i c h a e l . L e w i s @ l i s t o n a b r a m s o n . c o m
`
`1
`
`2 3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`1 0
`
`1 1
`
`1 2
`
`1 3
`
`1 4
`
`1 5
`
`1 6
`
`1 7
`
`1 8
`
`1 9
`
`2 0
`
`2 1
`
`2 2
`
`2 3
`
`2 4
`
`2 5
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`Calendar-CA@veritext.com 866-299-5127
`
`Page 4
`
`Amazon / WAG Acquisition
`Exhibit 1033
`Page 4
`
`
`
` 5
`
` I N D E X
`
` Thursday, August 3, 2023
`
` WITNESS EXAMINATION
`
` W. LEO HOARTY
`
` BY MR. MCGANN 8, 149
`
` BY MR. ABRAMSON 145
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`Calendar-CA@veritext.com 866-299-5127
`
`Page 5
`
`1
`
`2 3 4
`
`5 6
`
`7 8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Amazon / WAG Acquisition
`Exhibit 1033
`Page 5
`
`
`
` 6
`
` DEPOSITION EXHIBITS
`
` W. LEO HOARTY
`
` NUMBER DESCRIPTION IDENTIFIED
`
` Exhibit 1032 Microsoft Computer Dictionary, 67
`
` Fifth Edition excerpts
`
` PREVIOUSLY MARKED EXHIBITS REFERRED TO HEREIN:
`
` EXHIBIT NO. PAGE
`
` 1005 39
`
` 2007 9
`
` 2013 139
`
` 2018 15
`
` 2019 65
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`Calendar-CA@veritext.com 866-299-5127
`
`Page 6
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6 7 8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Amazon / WAG Acquisition
`Exhibit 1033
`Page 6
`
`
`
`Morgan Hill, California; Thursday, August 3, 2023
`
`9:41 a.m. Pacific Daylight Time
`
`PROCEEDINGS
`
`--oOo--
`
`W. LEO HOARTY,
`
`having been first duly sworn, was examined
`
`and testified as follows:
`
`THE WITNESS: I do.
`
`09:41:52
`
`THE REPORTER: Thank you. And will you please
`
`state where you are testifying from.
`
`THE WITNESS: I am in Morgan Hill, California.
`
`THE REPORTER: Counsel, please introduce
`
`yourselves, beginning with the noticing attorney.
`
`09:42:10
`
`MR. MCGANN: It's Kevin McGann from Amazon, and
`
`with me also for Amazon are Johnathan Chai and Brian
`
`Hoffman.
`
`THE REPORTER: Mr. Abramson.
`
`MR. ABRAMSON: Ron Abramson for the patent
`
`09:42:23
`
`owner, WAG Acquisition LLC, and with me is M. Michael
`
`Lewis.
`
`///
`
`THE REPORTER: Thank you.
`
`You may proceed, Counsel.
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`Calendar-CA@veritext.com 866-299-5127
`
`09:42:37
`
`Page 7
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5 6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`Amazon / WAG Acquisition
`Exhibit 1033
`Page 7
`
`
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` EXAMINATION
`
`BY MR. MCGANN:
`
` Q. Good morning, Mr. Hoarty.
`
` A. Good morning.
`
` Q. As I said, my name is Kevin McGann. I'm going 09:42:42
`
`to be asking you some questions today. I know you've
`
`been deposed before so I assume you have a basic
`
`understanding of the procedures, but just a couple points
`
`we can cover.
`
` Obviously, let's try to take things one at a 09:42:58
`
`time when we're speaking. It's hard for the reporter to
`
`get it down, especially on remote proceedings.
`
` Also, if I ask you a question -- and I'm going
`
`to assume you understand it if you answer it -- so please
`
`tell me if you don't understand it, and I will try to 09:43:12
`
`clarify.
`
` And for clarification purposes, there's nothing
`
`that you're -- no medication or other potential
`
`impairment that would affect your ability to give full
`
`and complete testimony today? 09:43:29
`
` A. No, sir.
`
` Q. So Mr. Hoarty, just a point of clarification.
`
`You submitted one declaration in both IPR2022-01430 and
`
`01433; right?
`
` A. I am not clear on what -- I submitted one 09:43:50
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`Calendar-CA@veritext.com 866-299-5127
`
`Page 8
`
`Amazon / WAG Acquisition
`Exhibit 1033
`Page 8
`
`
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`declaration for. Is that -- are you referencing the two
`
`patents, '824, '636?
`
` Q. Correct.
`
` A. Okay, yes, I submitted one declaration.
`
` Q. And it's -- it should be in the Marked Exhibits 09:44:05
`
`folder.
`
` A. It is.
`
` Q. It's Exhibit 2007 in both IPRs?
`
` A. Yes, sir.
`
` Q. Just for your reference, to the extent we're 09:44:16
`
`going to be looking at things that are either marked or
`
`already papers in the proceeding, I am not going to mark
`
`them separately today so we don't get confusing sets of
`
`exhibit numbers on them.
`
` So I'll just drop them in the Marked Exhibits 09:44:32
`
`folder when we need to talk about them, and they should
`
`be available to you.
`
` So, sir, can you tell me what, if anything, you
`
`did to prepare for your deposition today.
`
` A. I reviewed my declaration. I reviewed the 09:44:48
`
`patents at issue. I reviewed the -- the -- the patents
`
`asserted against the patents at issue just to be familiar
`
`with what I said, and the documents, the structure of the
`
`other documents.
`
` Q. Do you have any materials with you today? 09:45:08
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`Calendar-CA@veritext.com 866-299-5127
`
`Page 9
`
`Amazon / WAG Acquisition
`Exhibit 1033
`Page 9
`
`
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` A. No, sir. Just on the screen.
`
` Q. Okay.
`
` A. Digitally, yes.
`
` Q. Right. No, but there's no -- you don't have any
`
`notes or any other documents with you that you're working 09:45:21
`
`from?
`
` A. No, sir. Just all in my head.
`
` Q. Great. Great.
`
` And of course, if you need something, please
`
`ask. 09:45:34
`
` So if you might, Mr. Hoarty, take a look at
`
`Exhibit 2007, which is your declaration.
`
` A. Okay. I have on my laptop a screen to the left.
`
`I'm going to be occasionally looking at that, if that's
`
`okay. So it is the document you sent me. It's just on a 09:45:50
`
`separate large screen, it's easier to read.
`
` Q. That's fine. Understood.
`
` A. Okay. It is in front of me.
`
` Q. All right. Would you turn to page 6 in your
`
`Exhibit 2007. 09:46:06
`
` A. I am there.
`
` Q. Do you see that in paragraph 13 you address a
`
`hypothetical person of ordinary skill in the art?
`
` A. Yes, sir.
`
` Q. And you say you largely agree with Dr. Jeffay's 09:46:16
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`Calendar-CA@veritext.com 866-299-5127
`
`Page 10
`
`Amazon / WAG Acquisition
`Exhibit 1033
`Page 10
`
`
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`criteria for a person of ordinary skill in the art?
`
` A. Correct.
`
` Q. Now you offer some clarifications, but the first
`
`question I'd like to ask you is: If Dr. Jeffay's
`
`criteria for a person of ordinary skill in the art were 09:46:33
`
`adopted, would it change any of your opinions?
`
` A. I am not clear on the question. I'm largely
`
`agreeing with what he -- what the criteria for a POSITA
`
`is. I don't believe the -- I'm not clear, actually,
`
`what -- what -- how that would change my understanding of 09:46:57
`
`the patents and the technology.
`
` Q. You say you largely agree, and then you offer
`
`some clarifications. What I'm saying is if those
`
`clarifications that you're offering are not included and
`
`it's just what Dr. Jeffay said, would that change any of 09:47:12
`
`your opinions in this case?
`
` A. Oh, I see what you mean.
`
` It's so fundamental, I don't think -- I don't --
`
`I'm not clear. I was simply mentioning that
`
`understanding streaming, you know, when I refer to 09:47:34
`
`dynamic content of -- somebody would have to have some
`
`understanding of media streaming over the internet. I
`
`think Dr. Jeffay fell -- stopped a little short of the
`
`skill level.
`
` But one way or the other, the POSITA could work 09:47:49
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`Calendar-CA@veritext.com 866-299-5127
`
`Page 11
`
`Amazon / WAG Acquisition
`Exhibit 1033
`Page 11
`
`
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`out what the patents mean, I believe. I can't say there
`
`would be a wholesale change in my opinion or not.
`
` Q. So you don't know one way or another whether
`
`applying --
`
` A. I don't think -- 09:48:08
`
` Q. -- what Dr. Jeffay said?
`
` A. Correct. I don't know one way or the other.
`
` Q. Okay.
`
` A. Just I thought it was a helpful clarification to
`
`what I would consider useful background knowledge. 09:48:18
`
` Q. In paragraph 13, you refer to some theoretical
`
`understanding as well as some familiarity with basic
`
`internet protocols and tools for working with dynamic
`
`content and creating interactive web sites to handle such
`
`content as something you think should be required for a 09:48:36
`
`person of ordinary skill in the art; right?
`
` A. Yes, that's correct.
`
` Q. Okay. Why did you propose that clarification?
`
` A. Because I felt that Dr. Jeffay fell short of
`
`the -- of describing the appropriate POSITA. 09:48:54
`
` Q. Okay. And what theory or theoretical
`
`understanding do you think is required in this case for a
`
`person of ordinary skill in the art?
`
` A. It's -- would you like me to iterate? There's
`
`quite a few. One would presume the -- the person of 09:49:15
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`Calendar-CA@veritext.com 866-299-5127
`
`Page 12
`
`Amazon / WAG Acquisition
`Exhibit 1033
`Page 12
`
`
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`ordinary skill had a -- had a background with the HTTP
`
`protocol and its evolution, had knowledge of the various
`
`technologies at play at the time.
`
`There were many commercial efforts at streaming
`
`audio and video over the internet. Familiar -- some
`
`09:49:38
`
`familiar -- some familiarity with those protocols --
`
`those products, I should say, would be important.
`
`And it was an early -- you know, it was early on
`
`in the internet era so there was -- there was a growing
`
`body of knowledge, but at the time, I think at least --
`
`09:50:00
`
`at least understanding the -- the available tools for
`
`dynamic content would be required to interpret these
`
`patents.
`
`Q.
`
`And by "dynamic content," are you distinguishing
`
`between something that's, say, a still image or
`
`09:50:22
`
`something?
`
`A.
`
`Correct.
`
`Q.
`
`Okay. So streaming audio, video, or something
`
`like that; right?
`
`A.
`
`Correct.
`
`09:50:34
`
`Q.
`
`Okay. So you mentioned HTTP so I wanted to ask
`
`you a few questions about that.
`
`HTTP generally is a response -- request response
`
`protocol; right?
`
`A.
`
`It is, yes. GET and PUT are the fundamentals of
`
`09:50:52
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`Calendar-CA@veritext.com 866-299-5127
`
`Page 13
`
`Amazon / WAG Acquisition
`Exhibit 1033
`Page 13
`
`
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`the -- of its framework.
`
` Q. And in that request response of HTTP, the client
`
`sends requests to servers, and the server sends
`
`responses; right?
`
` A. In general, correct. 09:51:11
`
` Q. And in HTTP, the client is the computer that
`
`establishes the connection with the server for purposes
`
`of sending requests; right?
`
` A. Correct.
`
` Q. And a server is an application program -- 09:51:26
`
`application program that accepts connections for the
`
`purpose of servicing requests by sending responses back
`
`to the client; right?
`
` A. Correct.
`
` Q. So would you agree that it's most commonly HTTP 09:51:39
`
`connections occur over TCP?
`
` A. Did you say ECP or TCP?
`
` Q. TCP as in Thomas.
`
` A. Thomas, yes. TCP is the general protocol.
`
` Q. And TCP provides reliable communications; 09:51:57
`
`correct?
`
` A. Correct.
`
` Q. And at least HTTP 1.1 requires reliable
`
`communications and reliable transport?
`
` A. I agree. 09:52:09
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`Calendar-CA@veritext.com 866-299-5127
`
`Page 14
`
`Amazon / WAG Acquisition
`Exhibit 1033
`Page 14
`
`
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` MR. ABRAMSON: Objection. Form.
`
` Q. BY MR. MCGANN: So and when the client makes an
`
`HTTP request to the server, the type of request is
`
`specified by the method in the first line of the request;
`
`right? 09:52:29
`
` A. Correct.
`
` Q. Okay. And I've also shared in the Marked
`
`Exhibits folder Exhibit 2018. It's RFC 2068.
`
` A. Correct.
`
` Q. You're familiar with that; right? 09:52:57
`
` A. I am.
`
` Q. And that's -- you cited that in your report;
`
`right?
`
` A. Correct.
`
` Q. For HTTP? 09:53:03
`
` Would you consider that a definitive guide for
`
`HTTP 1.1?
`
` A. It is. By definition, yes, sir.
`
` Q. All right. So would you look at -- it's -- I'm
`
`going to use the internal page, not the -- I'm sorry -- 09:53:18
`
`the exhibit page numbers because the internal page
`
`numbers are off from that.
`
` So when I give you in Exhibit 2018 a page
`
`number, what I'm referring to is in the lower right-hand
`
`corner, it has a page number and a slash 140. So I'll be 09:53:33
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`Calendar-CA@veritext.com 866-299-5127
`
`Page 15
`
`Amazon / WAG Acquisition
`Exhibit 1033
`Page 15
`
`
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`referring to that page number.
`
` Do you follow me?
`
` A. Okay. I follow you. I'm just trying to if
`
`it -- oh, there it showed up. I'm sorry, it just popped
`
`up. I had to refresh my screen here. It's coming up. I 09:53:43
`
`had only had previous...
`
` Give it a second. This PDF server is a little
`
`slow, but it's still trying to paint my screen. Sorry, I
`
`apologize. It appeared after I had already pulled up the
`
`other documents. 09:54:02
`
` Q. Okay. And if it's faster for you, I don't --
`
`you know, and we can do it on a break if you want. I
`
`think once it's available, you may be able to download
`
`them so you can work with a local a copy of the exhibits
`
`if it's easier for you. 09:54:20
`
` A. Excellent.
`
` Q. Once I put it in Marked, I don't mind if you
`
`take it down for a local copy.
`
` A. Excellent. Will to.
`
` Q. So would you look at page 30 in Exhibit 2018, in 09:54:28
`
`particular, "Section 5.1.1, Method."
`
` A. Okay. Give it one more -- it's almost -- it's
`
`almost there.
`
` Oh, my. It is. See if I can refresh this and
`
`get it to speed up. 09:54:53
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`Calendar-CA@veritext.com 866-299-5127
`
`Page 16
`
`Amazon / WAG Acquisition
`Exhibit 1033
`Page 16
`
`
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` I'm so sorry. It's not painting. It's
`
`continuing to say that it's trying to -- to paint the
`
`screen, and I have a spinning wait icon here.
`
` Q. Can you download it?
`
` A. Yeah, I'm trying right now. 09:55:41
`
` Q. If you right click?
`
` A. It is not offering the option to download when I
`
`right click.
`
` THE REPORTER: Shall we go off the record,
`
`Counsel? 09:55:57
`
` MR. MCGANN: Sure.
`
` THE REPORTER: Off the record.
`
` (Discussion off the record.)
`
` THE REPORTER: Back on the record. Thank you.
`
` Q. BY MR. MCGANN: Okay. So, Mr. Hoarty, would you 09:56:50
`
`look at page 30 in Exhibit 2018. Do you see the heading
`
`"5.1.1, Method"?
`
` A. Yes, I do.
`
` Q. And do you understand it lists there the methods
`
`that are allowed in HTTP 1.1? 09:57:02
`
` A. I do.
`
` Q. Okay. And if you scroll down on that same page,
`
`last paragraph before 5.1.2, you agree that the methods
`
`GET and HEAD must be supported by all general-purpose
`
`servers and all other methods are optional? 09:57:22
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`Calendar-CA@veritext.com 866-299-5127
`
`Page 17
`
`Amazon / WAG Acquisition
`Exhibit 1033
`Page 17
`
`
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` A. Correct. I see it.
`
` Q. Would you understand the GET request to be the
`
`most common request in HTTP 1.1?
`
` A. I do.
`
` Q. And then if you continue down that same page 30, 09:57:40
`
`the request also has to identify a Request-URI, which is
`
`the resource the request is asking to apply the request
`
`to; right?
`
` A. Correct.
`
` Q. So, for example, it might say GET and give a 09:57:54
`
`file name or file location; right?
`
` A. Correct.
`
` Q. So in RFC 2068, the only way for -- I'm sorry.
`
`Let me...
`
` If we look at -- you can feel free to look at 09:58:14
`
`page 43 in the same exhibit, but my question for you was:
`
`Of all the methods in HTTP 1.1, only the GET method is
`
`described as being able to retrieve content requested by
`
`a client from a server; right?
`
` A. I believe so, correct. 09:58:31
`
` Q. So the only way disclosed in RFC 2068 for
`
`obtaining application content or data from a server is by
`
`first making an HTTP GET request; right?
`
` A. If you mean initially, yes. You make a GET
`
`request and have to -- is at least the first step. 09:58:51
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`Calendar-CA@veritext.com 866-299-5127
`
`Page 18
`
`Amazon / WAG Acquisition
`Exhibit 1033
`Page 18
`
`
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` Q. That's in every HTTP application, the first
`
`request has to be a GET?
`
` A. That is correct.
`
` Q. That's initiated by the client?
`
` A. Correct. 09:59:06
`
` Q. Now, sir, in your declaration, paragraph 50, I
`
`believe it is, you said that -- I think you said that
`
`persistent connections were not available in HTTP 1.0?
`
` A. Yes, that's correct.
`
` Q. Are you familiar with the Keep-Alive function -- 09:59:43
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. -- for HTTP?
`
` A. Yes, I am.
`
` Q. So the Keep-Alive function in HTTP 1.0, couldn't
`
`a client establish a persistent connection with a server? 09:59:54
`
` A. I would have to review the limitations on that.
`
`It's so long ago. I'm sorry. It was -- we're so far
`
`away from the 1990s, I would -- I would be happy to
`
`review and give you an opinion.
`
` Q. If you look at page 138. Page 138 in 10:00:24
`
`Exhibit 2018.
`
` A. Okay. I'll get there.
`
` Q. On page 138 and 139 of Exhibit 2018, do you see
`
`where it refers to persistent connections can be used by
`
`using the Keep-Alive? 10:01:14
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`Calendar-CA@veritext.com 866-299-5127
`
`Page 19
`
`Amazon / WAG Acquisition
`Exhibit 1033
`Page 19
`
`
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` A. I'm at 138 in your document. And what paragraph
`
`are you referring to? Excuse me. I just got there.
`
` Q. It starts on the last paragraph before one
`
`point -- before 19.7.1. So just above that towards the
`
`bottom. 10:01:39
`
` A. Okay.
`
` Q. And you understand that at least some
`
`implementations of HTTP 1.0 could implement persistent
`
`connections using the Keep-Alive feature?
`
` A. I see that, yes. 10:01:53
`
` Q. If that's the case, then, they wouldn't need to
`
`establish a new connection for every request; right?
`
` A. Yes.
`
` Q. Okay. And in HTTP, you understand that requests
`
`can also be duplex so that more than one request is sent 10:02:07
`
`before the response to the first request is received?
`
` A. Yes, understood.
`
` Q. So if there's a persistent connection available,
`
`there's no overhead for having to establish -- opening
`
`and closing new connections; right? 10:02:32
`
` MR. ABRAMSON: Object to the form.
`
` THE WITNESS: I understand in this protocol,
`
`yes, that is what it provides.
`
` Q. BY MR. MCGANN: Now I want to ask you your
`
`definitions of "push" and "pull." So if I could, let's 10:02:53
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`Calendar-CA@veritext.com 866-299-5127
`
`Page 20
`
`Amazon / WAG Acquisition
`Exhibit 1033
`Page 20
`
`
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`turn to paragraph 19 in your declaration, which is
`
`Exhibit 2007.
`
` A. Yes, I'm there.
`
` Q. So what is your definition of a push system
`
`here? 10:03:15
`
` A. A push system would be a system that once a --
`
`once a connection is established and a media is
`
`identified or a URI is -- is -- is accessed, the server
`
`will -- will deliver the contents to the client and
`
`without the client having to -- having to request each 10:03:43
`
`element of the -- of the -- of the requested content.
`
` Q. Now your definition here said a server sends
`
`data to the client at the instigation of the server;
`
`right?
`
` A. Correct. 10:04:02
`
` Q. But that's -- even in such a system, the client
`
`has to send the request before that happens; right?
`
` A. No.
`
` Q. No request even to initiate?
`
` A. Well, of course. There's a -- and obviously, 10:04:15
`
`the initial, I said -- if I may clarify, I said once the
`
`request is established -- once the connection is
`
`established and the client has made a request for a,
`
`let's say, a media element like a video, a video segment,
`
`the server will then provide the video segment without -- 10:04:33
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`Calendar-CA@veritext.com 866-299-5127
`
`Page 21
`
`Amazon / WAG Acquisition
`Exhibit 1033
`Page 21
`
`
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`in its entirety without the client needing to make
`
`individual requests.
`
` For instance, if it were 10,000 frames of video,
`
`the client would not have to request each individual
`
`frame as it was received. 10:04:51
`
` Q. But in each instance, the client has to make an
`
`initial request; right? For the file?
`
` MR. ABRAMSON: Objection to form.
`
` THE WITNESS: I would say the client has to make
`
`the initial request for the program or -- if you will, or 10:05:10
`
`the element. The -- the program could be divided into
`
`sections that are groups of video frames. It could be a
`
`sequence of individual files. The client should -- in a
`
`push mode, the client doesn't really care -- they want to
`
`watch a video on YouTube -- how YouTube stores it. It's 10:05:33
`
`not -- doesn't need to be of a concern in a push system
`
`to the client.
`
` So you could just say a push by definition,
`
`regardless of how the server is managing data, is a
`
`request, and then the client basically receives the 10:05:49
`
`entirety of the program or until the -- until the viewer
`
`says stop, of course.
`
` Q. BY MR. MCGANN: So in your definition of push,
`
`it -- it's not just a situation where a client opens a
`
`connection and the server is pushing data to the client? 10:06:04
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`Calendar-CA@veritext.com 866-299-5127
`
`Page 22
`
`Amazon / WAG Acquisition
`Exhibit 1033
`Page 22
`
`
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
` MR. ABRAMSON: Object to the form.
`
` THE WITNESS: Sorry, for -- just would you
`
`repeat that?
`
` Q. BY MR. MCGANN: Sure.
`
` In your definition of "push," it's not just a 10:06:20
`
`situation where a client opens a connection and the
`
`server is pushing data to the client?
`
` MR. ABRAMSON: Again, object to the form.
`
` THE WITNESS: It is an issue of the -- I think
`
`it's the opposite. It is the client making a request to 10:06:34
`
`the server for a -- typically a program or video or audio
`
`element in the case of media, and the user -- the client
`
`then expects delivery of the entire contents without any
`
`further requests.
`
` Q. BY MR. MCGANN: So how is that at the 10:06:57
`
`instigation of the server if the client is making the
`
`initial request?
`
` A. Well, I think we agree on the internet. It
`
`would be chaos if servers could arbitrarily send the
`
`content to clients that didn't make a request. So it is 10:07:10
`
`simply the client, the user, wants to watch a YouTube
`
`video. They make a request to the YouTube server. The
`
`YouTube server delivers the video.
`
` Or in the case of Amazon, Amazon Prime feature
`
`film or whatever, the user makes an initial request and 10:07:28
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`Calendar-CA@veritext.com 866-299-5127
`
`Page 23
`
`Amazon / WAG Acquisition
`Exhibit 1033
`Page 23
`
`
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`the --
`
` Q. I'm asking about your definition in paragraph
`
`19. You said push system -- "'Push' refers to systems in
`
`which the server sends data to the client at the
`
`instigation of the server." 10:07:41
`
` And what you've described to me is you're
`
`including within that when the client makes the initial
`
`request. So it's not at the instigation of the server;
`
`right?
`
` MR. ABRAMSON: Object to the form. 10:07:53
`
` THE WITNESS: The first -- the connection with
`
`the client is at the instigation of the client.
`
` Q. BY MR. MCGANN: And after the content
`
`requested --
`
` MR. ABRAMSON: Let him finish his answer, 10:08:02
`
`please.
`
` THE WITNESS: And the -- and then after the
`
`client requests a media element or a content -- requests
`
`content -- I'll just keep it broad -- the server then, at
`
`the instigation of the server to -- to start and continue 10:08:16
`
`and complete the delivery of the content unless
`
`interrupted by the user.
`
` Q. BY MR. MCGANN: Okay. So would you agree with
`
`me, then, in Carmel, the Carmel patent, at least the --
`
`no matter what part of it you're talking about, at least 10:08:38
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`Calendar-CA@veritext.com 866-299-5127
`
`Page 24
`
`Amazon / WAG Acquisition
`Exhibit 1033
`Page 24
`
`
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`the initial request for the content is made by the
`
`client?
`
` A. Yes, by definition of all internet activity,
`
`yes. I mean as consistent with all internet activity.
`
`Excuse me. 10:09:01
`
` Q. All right. Let's look at the '824 patent. It
`
`should be in your Marked Exhibits.
`
` A. It is.
`
` Q. If you would turn to column 8, at lines 15 to 17
`
`of the '824 patent. 10:09:22
`
` A. I'm there.
`
` Q. Do you see where it says, "Once a connection is
`
`made to a user's computer (e.g., a user computer 18),
`
`server 12 sends the media data to the user computer in
`
`the following manner." 10:09:37
`
` Do you see that sentence?
`
` A. I do.
`
` Q. All right. That doesn't mention a request, does
`
`it, from the client?
`
` MR. ABRAMSON: Object to the form. 10:09:54
`
` THE WITNESS: For the -- I'm sorry, you're
`
`asking for the entire paragraph to -- I'm not clear on
`
`your question. I apologize. I'm trying to --
`
` Q. BY MR. MCGANN: My question was the first
`
`sentence there that begins: "Once a connection is made 10:10:22
`
`Veritext Legal Solutions
`Calendar-CA@veritext.com 866-299-5127
`
`Page 25
`
`Amazon / WAG Acquisition
`Exhibit 1033
`Page 25
`
`
`
`1
`
`2
`
`3
`
`4
`
`5
`
`6
`
`7
`
`8
`
`9
`
`10
`
`11
`
`12
`
`13
`
`14
`
`15
`
`16
`
`17
`
`18
`
`19
`
`20
`
`21
`
`22
`
`23
`
`24
`
`25
`
`to a user's computer (e.g., user computer 18), server 12
`
`sends the media data to the user computer in the
`
`following manner."
`
` That -- that sentence doesn't make any mention
`
`of the user's client side making a request for the media; 10:10:38
`
`right?
`
` A. I believe it's implying that the request has
`
`already been made and the server knows what to send and
`
`the consumer knows what -- the client knows what to
`
`expect, is how I would read the sentence in isolation. 10:10:57
`
` Q. Okay. So if a description of a server sending
`
`something to a client, you think it's a person of
`
`ordinary skill in the art would imply that was at least
`
`preceded by at least one request?
`
` A. Again, by definition of HTTP, a request has to 10:11:22
`
`be initiated by the client at some point. I mean
`
`initially. I didn't mean at some poi