Dr. Kevin Jeffay - May 23, 2023
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`Page 1
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` IPR 2022-01430
` IPR 2022-01433
` PATENT 9,742,824 B2
` PATENT 9,762,636 B2
`
` __________________________________________________
` )
` )
` AMAZON.COM, INC., AMAZON WEB SERVICES, INC., )
` and AMAZON.COM SERVICES, LLC, )
` )
` Petitioner, )
` )
` vs. )
` )
` WAG ACQUISITION, L.L.C., )
` )
` Patent Owner. )
` ___________________________________________________)
`
` DEPOSITION UNDER ORAL EXAMINATION OF
`
` DR. KEVIN JEFFAY
`
` DATE: May 23, 2023
`
` REPORTED BY: MICHAEL FRIEDMAN, CCR
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
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`WAG, Exhibit 2010
`Amazon.com, Inc. v. WAG Acquisition, LLC, IPR2022-01433
`Page 1 of 152
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`Page 1
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` UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
` BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
` IPR 2022-01430
` IPR 2022-01433
` PATENT 9,742,824 B2
` PATENT 9,762,636 B2
`
` __________________________________________________
` )
` )
` AMAZON.COM, INC., AMAZON WEB SERVICES, INC., )
` and AMAZON.COM SERVICES, LLC, )
` )
` Petitioner, )
` )
` vs. )
` )
` WAG ACQUISITION, L.L.C., )
` )
` Patent Owner. )
` ___________________________________________________)
`
` DEPOSITION UNDER ORAL EXAMINATION OF
`
` DR. KEVIN JEFFAY
`
` DATE: May 23, 2023
`
` REPORTED BY: MICHAEL FRIEDMAN, CCR
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
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`WAG, Exhibit 2010
`Amazon.com, Inc. v. WAG Acquisition, LLC, IPR2022-01433
`Page 1 of 152
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`Dr. Kevin Jeffay - May 23, 2023
`
`Page 2
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` TRANSCRIPT of the deposition of the
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` witness, called for Oral Examination in the
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` above-captioned matter, said deposition being taken
`
` by and before MICHAEL FRIEDMAN, a Notary Public and
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` Certified Court Reporter of the State of New Jersey,
`
` at ZOOM VTC, ALL PARTIES REMOTE, on May 23, 2023,
`
` commencing at approximately 10:00 in the morning.
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`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
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`WAG, Exhibit 2010
`Amazon.com, Inc. v. WAG Acquisition, LLC, IPR2022-01433
`Page 2 of 152
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`Dr. Kevin Jeffay - May 23, 2023
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`Page 3
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` A P P E A R A N C E S:
`
` LISTON ABRAMSON
`
` 405 Lexington Avenue
`
` New York, NY 10174
`
` BY: RONALD ABRAMSON, ESQ.
`
` MICHAEL LEWIS, ESQ.
`
` Attorneys for WAG Acquisition
`
` FENWICK & WEST
`
` 902 Broadway
`
` New York, NY 10010
`
` BY: JOHNATHAN CHAI, ESQ.
`
` JOHNSON KUNCHERIA, ESQ.
`
` Attorneys for Amazon
`
` * * * * *
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`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
`
`WAG, Exhibit 2010
`Amazon.com, Inc. v. WAG Acquisition, LLC, IPR2022-01433
`Page 3 of 152
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`Dr. Kevin Jeffay - May 23, 2023
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`Page 4
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` I N D E X
`
` WITNESS NAME PAGE
`
` DR. KEVIN JEFFAY
`
` By Mr. Abramson 7
`
` * * * * *
`
` E X H I B I T S
`
` EXHIBIT NO. PAGE
`
` 1001 '824 patent 8
`
` 1005 Carmel reference 8
`
` 2003 Jeffay CV 8
`
` 2824 Former 1002 9
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` 2636 Former 1002 9
`
` 2004 Longhorn v. Netscout 18
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` 2005 3G Licensing v. HTC 22
`
` 2006 Pretrial conference 23
` memo
`
` 1029 IETF RFC 793 28
`
` 2008 Dr. Houh declaration 98
`
` 2009 Declaration comparison 102
`
` 2013 ITC transcript 113
`
` 2012 Initial determination 137
` on 237
`
` * * * * *
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`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
`
`WAG, Exhibit 2010
`Amazon.com, Inc. v. WAG Acquisition, LLC, IPR2022-01433
`Page 4 of 152
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`Dr. Kevin Jeffay - May 23, 2023
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`Page 5
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` - - -
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` Deposition Support Index
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` - - -
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` Direction to Witness Not to Answer
`
` Page Line Page Line Page Line
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` None
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` Request for Production of Documents
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` Page Line Page Line Page Line
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` 143 5
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` Stipulations
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` Page Line Page Line Page Line
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` None
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` Questions Marked
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` None
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`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
`
`WAG, Exhibit 2010
`Amazon.com, Inc. v. WAG Acquisition, LLC, IPR2022-01433
`Page 5 of 152
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`Dr. Kevin Jeffay - May 23, 2023
`
`Page 6
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` THE COURT REPORTER: My name is
`
` Michael Friedman, a Certified Shorthand
`
` Reporter. This deposition is being held
`
` via videoconferencing equipment.
`
` The witness and reporter are not in
`
` the same room. The witness will be sworn
`
` in remotely, pursuant to agreement of
`
` all parties. The parties stipulate that
`
` the testimony is being given as if the
`
` witness was sworn in person.
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
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`
`WAG, Exhibit 2010
`Amazon.com, Inc. v. WAG Acquisition, LLC, IPR2022-01433
`Page 6 of 152
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`Dr. Kevin Jeffay - May 23, 2023
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`Page 7
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` D R. K E V I N J E F F A Y,
`
` called as a witness, having been first
`
` duly sworn according to law, testifies as follows:
`
` EXAMINATION BY MR. ABRAMSON:
`
` Q Good morning, Dr. Jeffay. I'm
`
` Ronald Abramson from the --
`
` A Good morning.
`
` MR. ABRAMSON: Just make a note for
`
` the record that we're doing exhibits,
`
` doing this deposition by Zoom, and we're
`
` uploading exhibits into the Zoom chat.
`
` I have uploaded a number of
`
` exhibits including Exhibit 1001, which
`
` is the '824 patent, 9,748,424 --
`
` MR. CHAI: So let me just interrupt
`
` you.
`
` I actually don't see anything in
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` the chat.
`
` THE WITNESS: I don't, either.
`
` (Whereupon a discussion was held
`
` off the record.)
`
` MR. CHAI: Just for the record,
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`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
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`WAG, Exhibit 2010
`Amazon.com, Inc. v. WAG Acquisition, LLC, IPR2022-01433
`Page 7 of 152
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`Dr. Kevin Jeffay - May 23, 2023
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`Page 8
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` Johnathan Chai and Johnson Kuncheria for
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` the petitioners, also representing the
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` expert witness.
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` MR. ABRAMSON: Okay.
`
` So as I was saying, I have uploaded
`
` into the chat five exhibits.
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` 1001 is the '824 patent, 9,748,424.
`
` (Whereupon the above mentioned was
`
` marked for identification.)
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` MR. ABRAMSON: Exhibit 1005 is the
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` Carmel reference, 6,389,473.
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` (Whereupon the above mentioned was
`
` marked for identification.)
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` MR. ABRAMSON: Exhibit 2003 is a
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` copy of Dr. Jeffay's -- did I pronounce
`
` that right? Is it Jeffay?
`
` (Whereupon the above mentioned was
`
` marked for identification.)
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` THE WITNESS: Yes, that's right.
`
` MR. ABRAMSON: -- Dr. Jeffay's CV,
`
` and the reason I marked it that way is
`
` this is a combined deposition and two
`
` IPRs. You have that, Mike?
`
` So we have an Exhibit 1003, in each
`
` of those. In this case they're exactly
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
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`
`WAG, Exhibit 2010
`Amazon.com, Inc. v. WAG Acquisition, LLC, IPR2022-01433
`Page 8 of 152
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`Dr. Kevin Jeffay - May 23, 2023
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`Page 9
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` the same, but I've marked the 2003 to --
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` to disambiguate.
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` Then I have taken the deposition in
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` the -- the IPR concerning the '824 --
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` excuse me -- the declaration out of the
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` IPR in the '824 patent, which was
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` Exhibit 1002, and I've remarked it as
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` 2824.
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` (Whereupon the above mentioned was
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` marked for identification.)
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` MR. ABRAMSON: And the declaration
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` in the other IPR concerning the '636
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` patent I remarked as Exhibit 2636, just
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` so that they have -- they're both 1002,
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` the way they were filed.
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` (Whereupon the above mentioned was
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` marked for Identification.)
`
` Obviously they're different, so to
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` differentiate them I gave them unique
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` numbers here, but they're identical
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` copies of what was filed under the 1000
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` series numbers.
`
` Okay. Good.
`
` Q And, Dr. Jeffay, are you able to
`
` access those exhibits?
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
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`
`WAG, Exhibit 2010
`Amazon.com, Inc. v. WAG Acquisition, LLC, IPR2022-01433
`Page 9 of 152
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`Dr. Kevin Jeffay - May 23, 2023
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` A Yes, I have them all downloaded
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` now.
`
` Q Okay. So let me -- all right.
`
` I'm going to be referring first to
`
` your CV, which is Exhibit 2003.
`
` A Okay.
`
` Q So according to your CV, you've
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` appeared in many patent cases as an expert.
`
` Is that correct?
`
` A Yes. Correct.
`
` Q And including many PTAB cases.
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` Is that correct?
`
` A Correct.
`
` Q And you've given depositions many
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` times, including in PTAB cases.
`
` Correct?
`
` A Correct.
`
` Q So you're well aware of how the
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` deposition process works in an IPR.
`
` Is that right?
`
` A I believe I am.
`
` Q Do you understand that your
`
` declarations, such as the documents I've
`
` marked as 2824 and 2636, represent the direct
`
` testimony that you want to give on behalf of
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`
`WAG, Exhibit 2010
`Amazon.com, Inc. v. WAG Acquisition, LLC, IPR2022-01433
`Page 10 of 152
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`Dr. Kevin Jeffay - May 23, 2023
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` Amazon in this case?
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` A I have some understanding of that,
`
` yes.
`
` Q You understand that I'm going to be
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` asking you questions about what you said in
`
` your declarations.
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` Correct?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q And you understand that the format
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` of a deposition is a Q&A format?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q So your role -- my role is to ask
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` questions. Your role is to answer them.
`
` Correct?
`
` A That's my understanding.
`
` Q Okay.
`
` (Whereupon a discussion was held
`
` off the record.)
`
` Q Dr. Jeffay, you understand that
`
` when I ask you questions about what -- the
`
` statements in your declarations, that that
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` kind of questioning constitutes cross
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` examination.
`
` Correct?
`
` A That's my understanding.
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
`GregoryEdwards.com | 866-4Team GE
`
`WAG, Exhibit 2010
`Amazon.com, Inc. v. WAG Acquisition, LLC, IPR2022-01433
`Page 11 of 152
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`Dr. Kevin Jeffay - May 23, 2023
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`Page 12
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` Q And you understand that your -- if
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` you want the PTAB to accept your direct
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` testimony, you'll have to submit to cross
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` examination on what you said in your
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` declarations.
`
` Is that correct?
`
` A That goes beyond my knowledge of
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` the process.
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` Q Do you have an understanding as to
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` how you're supposed to respond to questions
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` put to you in a deposition in an IPR?
`
` A I think so.
`
` Q Could you tell us what your
`
` understanding is?
`
` A My understanding is simply I answer
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` the question that I'm asked unless Amazon
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` counsel advises me not to.
`
` Q Do you have any rules that you go
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` by, how you're supposed to respond to a
`
` question in a deposition?
`
` A I don't know what you're referring
`
` to by rules, but generally I would say no.
`
` Q Would you agree that in order to
`
` respond appropriately to a question, you have
`
` to understand the question?
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
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`
`WAG, Exhibit 2010
`Amazon.com, Inc. v. WAG Acquisition, LLC, IPR2022-01433
`Page 12 of 152
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`Dr. Kevin Jeffay - May 23, 2023
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` A Yes.
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` Q So we can create a clear record
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` today, can you agree with me that before you
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` begin to answer my questions, you will make
`
` sure you're reasonably certain that you
`
` understand the question that has been put to
`
` you?
`
` A I will do my best to do that.
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` Q If you have any doubt regarding
`
` what the question means, you'll let me know
`
` before you start answering.
`
` Correct?
`
` A I will try.
`
` Q Turning to your CV, am I correct
`
` that you've listed about -- beginning on the
`
` second page, that you listed about 35 prior
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` engagements over four years prior to your
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` declaration?
`
` A I certainly list the matters in
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` which I've offered testimony in the last four
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` years, and we can all count it.
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` I'm just scanning it quickly.
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` (Witness reviewing.)
`
` Q Yeah, I made an effort to count it
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` accurately, so...
`
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`
`WAG, Exhibit 2010
`Amazon.com, Inc. v. WAG Acquisition, LLC, IPR2022-01433
`Page 13 of 152
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`Dr. Kevin Jeffay - May 23, 2023
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` A Okay. Well, then I'm happy to
`
` accept your representation.
`
` I made it two thirds of the way
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` through, and it looks like it's going to be
`
` over 30.
`
` Q Okay. Can you tell us how many of
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` those, in how many of those you participated
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` on behalf of the patent owner?
`
` A You want an actual number?
`
` Q Yeah.
`
` A Okay. Give me a minute.
`
` (Witness reviewing.)
`
` I think in terms of just this list
`
` here, it's -- it's three or four.
`
` Q Okay. Which would those be?
`
` A So if we look at page 2 --
`
` THE WITNESS: John, I'm hearing an
`
` echo. I don't know if other folks are
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` hearing one. I'm hearing my voice
`
` through someone else's speaker coming
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` back into the mic.
`
` (Whereupon a discussion was held
`
` off the record.)
`
` A To answer your question, if you go
`
` page 2, the fifth one down, this ITC case,
`
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`
`WAG, Exhibit 2010
`Amazon.com, Inc. v. WAG Acquisition, LLC, IPR2022-01433
`Page 14 of 152
`
`
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`Dr. Kevin Jeffay - May 23, 2023
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`Page 15
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` the ITC investigation, 1265 --
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` Q Right.
`
` A -- that's -- that was on behalf of
`
` the patent owner, Dish.
`
` If we go to the next page, the
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` first one on the page, Gigamon versus APCOM,
`
` that was on behalf of a patent owner.
`
` Q That's two. Okay.
`
` A If we go about the middle of the
`
` page, it's referencing an IPR for two
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` patents, '978 and '828. That was for a
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` patent owner.
`
` And I will mention those two --
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` those are actually two separate matters, but
`
` I just listed them here as one.
`
` Q I'm sorry. Which matter is that?
`
` Sorry.
`
` A Almost in the middle of the page,
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` sort of above the fold, page 3, as it were,
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` you'll see an entry for an IPR for the '978
`
` patent and an '828 patent.
`
` Q I'm sorry.
`
` A It's In Re: Inter Partes review of
`
` the U.S. patent number 7 --
`
` Q Okay. Direct Packet? Okay.
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
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`
`WAG, Exhibit 2010
`Amazon.com, Inc. v. WAG Acquisition, LLC, IPR2022-01433
`Page 15 of 152
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`
`Dr. Kevin Jeffay - May 23, 2023
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` A Yes, and that's actually two
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` separate matters.
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` And then if you look at the third
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` from the bottom, there's another one for
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` Direct Packet in a District Court case.
`
` Q Okay. Anything else?
`
` A I think this list speaks for
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` itself, but I believe that in terms of just
`
` this list, that is correct. Just those.
`
` Q All right.
`
` Now, I've read your declarations,
`
` and I see in your declarations you said
`
` you're being compensated for your testimony
`
` today.
`
` Is that right?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q I didn't see where it said how much
`
` you're being compensated.
`
` Can you tell us the terms on which
`
` you're being compensated?
`
` A I believe it's $750 an hour.
`
` Q Okay. And when were you retained
`
` in this case?
`
` A That's certainly knowable, but
`
` that's not a date that I have in my head. It
`
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`
`WAG, Exhibit 2010
`Amazon.com, Inc. v. WAG Acquisition, LLC, IPR2022-01433
`Page 16 of 152
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`Dr. Kevin Jeffay - May 23, 2023
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` was either late 2021 or early 2022.
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` Q Okay. And how much -- how much
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` have you billed and collected on this case so
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` far?
`
` A That, again, is certainly knowable,
`
` but that's not a number I have in my head.
`
` Q Do you have an approximation?
`
` A No. Unfortunately, IPRs vary
`
` widely, so I really don't have a good
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` approximation.
`
` Q Are you up to date in being paid?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q Okay. Do you understand that
`
` sometimes the reliability of an expert
`
` opinion is challenged in court or any type of
`
` proceeding?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q As a -- has a court or other
`
` tribunal ever rejected any of your opinions
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` as unreliable?
`
` A Not to my knowledge.
`
` Q Okay.
`
` MR. ABRAMSON: I was about to drag
`
` an entire folder into the trash, and I
`
` don't want to do that.
`
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`
`WAG, Exhibit 2010
`Amazon.com, Inc. v. WAG Acquisition, LLC, IPR2022-01433
`Page 17 of 152
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`
`Dr. Kevin Jeffay - May 23, 2023
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` Okay. I think I need more
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` monitors, or maybe fewer monitors would
`
` be the answer.
`
` Let me upload something here.
`
` Exhibit 2004, I have just -- well, I
`
` will upload it right now. Let me just
`
` describe it first.
`
` I'm uploading Exhibit 2004.
`
` (Whereupon the above mentioned was
`
` marked for Identification.)
`
` MR. ABRAMSON: Let me just send it.
`
` Q Dr. Jeffay, were you involved in a
`
` case called Longhorn V Netscout?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q And was -- were any of your
`
` opinions in that case stricken?
`
` A Not to my knowledge.
`
` Q Okay. Do you see what I've just
`
` sent you as Exhibit 2004?
`
` A I do.
`
` Q And that -- for the record, it's a
`
` memorandum opinion in the case of Longhorn
`
` versus Netscout, 20 CV 3049, in the Eastern
`
` District of Texas, Marshall Division, by
`
` Magistrate Judge Payne.
`
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`
`WAG, Exhibit 2010
`Amazon.com, Inc. v. WAG Acquisition, LLC, IPR2022-01433
`Page 18 of 152
`
`
`
`Dr. Kevin Jeffay - May 23, 2023
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` Have you ever seen this decision
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` before?
`
` A I have not.
`
` Q You never knew about it?
`
` A Nope.
`
` Q It's news to you that the court --
`
` the court -- the court excluded your opinion
`
` because it was not reliable? That's news to
`
` you?
`
` MR. CHAI: Objection to form.
`
` A That is news to me.
`
` Q Let me share the screen with you.
`
` Just so we're clear, do you see at
`
` the bottom of page 8 --
`
` A I do.
`
` Q -- do you see where it says,
`
` "Without a reliable showing that the Omnis
`
` IDS Suricata product is available, the court
`
` must exclude Dr. Jeffay's offered opinion
`
` that the Omnis IDS Suricata is a
`
` non-infringing alternative"?
`
` A Just give me a minute to read this
`
` section, because I've never seen this
`
` document.
`
` (Witness reviewing.)
`
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`
`WAG, Exhibit 2010
`Amazon.com, Inc. v. WAG Acquisition, LLC, IPR2022-01433
`Page 19 of 152
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`
`
`Dr. Kevin Jeffay - May 23, 2023
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` Q You have your own copy, so I'm
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` going to take it off the share.
`
` A Oh, sure. Go right ahead.
`
` (Witness reviewing.)
`
` Okay. I've read it.
`
` Now, could you reask your question?
`
` Q You saw that statement.
`
` Correct, in the opinion?
`
` A I did.
`
` Q And you see the date of this
`
` opinion, March 22 -- sorry -- March 31, 2022?
`
` A Sure. I see that.
`
` Q Okay. And so your testimony is
`
` that nobody brought this to your attention?
`
` A No.
`
` Q Okay.
`
` A Yes, that is -- yes, it is my
`
` testimony that I don't recall -- I recall the
`
` issue, the underlying issue here, which was
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` there was a -- the company essentially had a
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` prior product that was accused of
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` infringement, and the product predated the
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` patent.
`
` And so what we said -- what I
`
` recall saying was simply that, you know,
`
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`
`WAG, Exhibit 2010
`Amazon.com, Inc. v. WAG Acquisition, LLC, IPR2022-01433
`Page 20 of 152
`
`
`
`Dr. Kevin Jeffay - May 23, 2023
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`Page 21
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` because this predated the patent, they could
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` use this as an non-infringing alternative.
`
` Then I guess they dropped their
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` allegations about this -- about this -- the
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` part of the one of the products for which
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` this omnibus Suricata product was used.
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` And then by them dropping it, that
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` took away the argument that I was using for
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` why this would be a non-infringing
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` alternative.
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` So I think what happened here is
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` that because the plaintiff changed their
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` position, it undercut my analysis of
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` non-infringing alternatives.
`
` Q Okay. Do you remember a case -- I
`
` think you mentioned it earlier -- 3G
`
` Licensing versus HTC?
`
` A I did not mention that earlier, but
`
` I think I know the case that you're speaking
`
` of.
`
` Q Was one of your opinions excluded
`
` in that case?
`
` A I -- if it was, I have no
`
` recollection of that.
`
` MR. ABRAMSON: Okay. I'm just
`
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`
`WAG, Exhibit 2010
`Amazon.com, Inc. v. WAG Acquisition, LLC, IPR2022-01433
`Page 21 of 152
`
`
`
`Dr. Kevin Jeffay - May 23, 2023
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` uploading here Exhibit 2005.
`
` (Whereupon the above mentioned was
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` marked for identification.)
`
` THE WITNESS: Okay.
`
` Q I will -- it's an order from the
`
` District of Delaware and 3G Licensing versus
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` HTC, case number 1783, and this was by Judge
`
` Stark.
`
` Do you have that?
`
` A Okay. I have it up on the screen.
`
` (Witness reviewing.)
`
` Q You can see on page -- pages 4 --
`
` for instance, on pages 4 to 5, that one of
`
` your opinions was stricken.
`
` Do you see that?
`
` A (Witness reviewing.)
`
` Just let me -- I see the section
`
` that I think you're referring to. Let me
`
` just read it.
`
` (Witness reviewing.)
`
` I see it now.
`
` Okay. I read that section.
`
` Q Okay. So you see the court struck
`
` one of your opinions in that case as well.
`
` Correct?
`
`GregoryEdwards, LLC | Worldwide Court Reporting
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`
`WAG, Exhibit 2010
`Amazon.com, Inc. v. WAG Acquisition, LLC, IPR2022-01433
`Page 22 of 152
`
`
`
`Dr. Kevin Jeffay - May 23, 2023
`
`Page 23
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` MR. CHAI: Objection, form.
`
` A Well, it's not referring to any
`
` specific opinion. I mean the way I read this
`
` was that there was some ambiguity in a claim
`
` construction.
`
` I went one way with the ambiguity.
`
` The court clarified its meaning, and based on
`
` that clarification said that I shouldn't go
`
` in that direction.
`
` MR. ABRAMSON: Here's another one,
`
` Exhibit 2006.
`
` (Whereupon the above mentioned was
`
` marked for Identification.)
`
` THE WITNESS: Okay. Hang on.
`
` Q 2006 is -- this is a memo of
`
` pre-trial conference held before Judge
`
` Gilstrack in the case of Seven Networks
`
` versus Google in the Eastern District of
`
` Texas, Marshall Division.
`
` A Okay. I have that.
`
` Q Okay. And you see -- you agree
`
` that the court in this case struck a portion
`
` of your rebuttal report.
`
` Correct?
`
` MR. CHAI: Objection, form.
`
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`
`WAG, Exhibit 2010
`Amazon.com, Inc. v. WAG Acquisition, LLC, IPR2022-01433
`Page 23 of 152
`
`
`
`Dr. Kevin Jeffay - May 23, 2023
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` A (Witness reviewing.)
`
` If you're referring to the text
`
` that's on page 3 of this document --
`
` Q Yes.
`
` A (Witness reviewing.)
`
` Yeah, it says that certain
`
` paragraphs of my rebuttal report were
`
` stricken.
`
` Q And you didn't know about this?
`
` A No.
`
` Q All right.
`
` Now, turning to your declaration,
`
` looking at specifically at Exhibit 2824 --
`
` A Okay.
`
` Q -- which was also marked as Exhibit
`
` 1003 in the -- in the IPR concerning the '824
`
` patent, which is -- make sure I get the
`
` number right -- IPR 20221412.
`
` So, yeah, Exhibit 1002 in IPR
`
` 20221412, has been marked here as Exhibit
`
` 2824.
`
` Are you looking at that right now?
`
` A I am.
`
` Q Okay. If you go down to number 19.
`
` On page 7, there's a heading that says,
`
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`
`WAG, Exhibit 2010
`Amazon.com, Inc. v. WAG Acquisition, LLC, IPR2022-01433
`Page 24 of 152
`
`
`
`Dr. Kevin Jeffay - May 23, 2023
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` "Materials Considered"?
`
` A Yes.
`
` Q Do you intend this section of your
`
` declaration to provide a reasonably complete
`
` disclosure of the materials on which you
`
` based any substantial portion of your
`
` declaration?
`
` A (Witness reviewing.)
`
` For the substantial portions of my
`
` opinion these are the documents that I relied
`
` on.
`
` And, in addition, there are other
`
` documents that are cited -- that are fully
`
` cited within the body of the declaration.
`
` Q Okay. And that group of documents,
`
` you intended to provide a reasonably complete
`
` disclosure of what you considered -- of what
`
` you based any substantial portion of your
`
` declaration on.
`
` Correct?
`
` MR. CHAI: Objection. Asked and
`
` answered.
`
` Q You may answer.
`
` A I think the answer is yes.
`
` Q Okay.
`
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`
`WAG, Exhibit 2010
`Amazon.com, Inc. v. WAG Acquisition, LLC, IPR2022-01433
`Page 25 of 152
`
`
`
`Dr. Kevin Jeffay - May 23, 2023
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` A In addition to those I described in
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` paragraph 21.
`
` And I'm also basing it on my own
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` personal knowledge, training, experience, et
`
` cetera.
`
` Q Okay. Did you supply anywhere on
`
` actual list of materials you considered in
`
` preparing these declarations?
`
` A I don't recall if an actual list
`
` was submitted, for example, as an exhibit to
`
` this declaration.
`
` Q Well, let me represent to you that
`
` it wasn't. There's no such exhibit.
`
` A Then I guess I didn't develop such
`
` an exhibit.
`
` Q Okay. Is that your usual practice,
`
` that you don't list -- you don't provide a
`
` list of materials you considered?
`
` A No, usually the list is compiled by
`
` the attorneys that I work with.
`
` Q It didn't strike you as unusual
`
` that there was no list on this declaration?
`
` A As I say, often it's supplied as an
`
` exhibit, and that would have been my
`
` assumption here.
`
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`
`WAG, Exhibit 2010
`Amazon.com, Inc. v. WAG Acquisition, LLC, IPR2022-01433
`Page 26 of 152
`
`
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`Dr. Kevin Jeffay - May 23, 2023
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` So, like I say, I was not aware
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` that there was no exhibit that was included
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` that listed materials considered.
`
` Q Okay. Let's look at Exhibit 1005.
`
` Do you have that handy?
`
` A Perhaps you could help me to
`
` identify what exactly Exhibit 1005 is.
`
` Q Yeah. It was in your chat, so I
`
` want to make sure we're on the same page
`
` here.
`
` Exhibit 1005 I sent you in the
`
` chat, and if you open it, I think you see
`
` it's the Carmel reference.
`
` A Oh, oh, I'm sorry, yes. I have
`
` that. Yes, I have that. I'm sorry.
`
` Q Okay. I take it from reading your
`
` declarations that you must be familiar with
`
` this reference?
`
` A Yes. I mean I certainly studied it
`
` for purposes of writing these declarations.
`
` Q Okay. I know there's two
`
` declarations here. The paragraph numbers in
`
` the two declarations are close, but the one
`
` on the '636, which is the live patent, the
`
` numbers creep up to eventually be two more.
`
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`
`WAG, Exhibit 2010
`Amazon.com, Inc. v. WAG Acquisition, LLC, IPR2022-01433
`Page 27 of 152
`
`
`
`Dr. Kevin Jeffay - May 23, 2023
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` So just for purposes of clarity,
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` unless I specify others -- otherwise, when I
`
` refer to your declarations, I'm referring to
`
` your declaration in the 1412 case involving
`
` the '824 patent.
`
` Did you understand that?
`
` A I think I do.
`
` Q Okay. So this is Exhibit 2824.
`
` So if you go to paragraph 139 --
`
` A Okay.
`
` Q Sorry. My keyboard is loud.
`
` I'm going down to 139. Okay.
`
` So do you see at the last line of
`
` page 62 a reference to IETF RFC 793 --
`
` A
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