Trials@uspto.gov
`571-272-7822
`
`Paper 40
`Entered: November 14, 2023
`
`UNITED STATES PATENT AND TRADEMARK OFFICE
`____________
`
`BEFORE THE PATENT TRIAL AND APPEAL BOARD
`____________
`
`META PLATFORMS, INC.,
`Petitioner,
`
`v.
`
`THALES VISONIX, INC.,
`Patent Owner.
`____________
`
`IPR2022-01294 (Patent 8,224,024 B2)
`IPR2022-01304 and IPR2022-01305 (Patent 6,922,632 B2)
`IPR2022-01308 (Patent 7,725,253 B2)1
`____________
`
`Before WILLIAM V. SAINDON, HYUN J. JUNG, and JASON W.
`MELVIN, Administrative Patent Judges.
`
`PER CURIAM.
`
`ORDER
`Setting Oral Argument
`37 C.F.R. § 42.70
`
`1 This Order addresses issues that are the same in each of these proceedings.
`We issue one Order to be entered in each proceeding. The parties are not
`permitted to use this style of caption.
`
`

`

`IPR2022-01294 (Patent 8,224,024 B2)
`IPR2022-01304 and IPR2022-01305 (Patent 6,922,632 B2)
`IPR2022-01308 (Patent 7,725,253 B2)
`
`
`ORAL ARGUMENT
`I.
`We instituted trial in each of the above-identified proceedings.
`IPR2022-01304, Paper 11 (dated March 22, 2023); IPR2022-01305, Paper
`12 (dated March 13, 2023); IPR2022-01308, Paper 10 (dated March 22,
`2023); and IPR2022-01294, Paper 10 (dated March 13, 2023). Petitioner
`(Meta Platforms, Inc.) and Patent Owner (Thales Visionix, Inc.) have jointly
`requested oral argument pursuant to 37 C.F.R. § 42.70(a). IPR2022-01304,
`Paper 37; IPR2022-01305, Paper 37; IPR2022-01308, Paper 36; and
`IPR2022-01294, Paper 34. The parties also indicate they have agreed to
`consolidate oral arguments for IPR2022-01304, IPR2022-01305, and
`IPR2022-01308. See IPR2022-01304, Paper 37; IPR2022-01305, Paper 37;
`and IPR2022-01308, Paper 36.
`Upon consideration, the requests for oral argument are granted.
`Time and Format2
`A.
`Oral arguments for IPR2022-01304, IPR2022-01305, and
`
`IPR2022-01308 will be combined, and the combined oral arguments will
`commence at 9:00 AM Eastern Time on December 7, 2023, in PTAB
`Hearing Room B at the USPTO headquarters in Alexandria (9th floor of
`
`
`2 If a party is no longer able to appear in-person for the hearing, the party
`must contact PTABHearings@uspto.gov as soon as possible.
`2
`
`
`
`

`

`IPR2022-01294 (Patent 8,224,024 B2)
`IPR2022-01304 and IPR2022-01305 (Patent 6,922,632 B2)
`IPR2022-01308 (Patent 7,725,253 B2)
`
`Madison Building East, 600 Dulany Street, Alexandria, Virginia 22314).3,4
`Oral arguments for IPR2022-01294 will commence at 12:00 PM Eastern
`Time on December 7, 2023, in PTAB Hearing Room B at the USPTO
`headquarters in Alexandria.5 The Board will provide a court reporter for
`the hearings, and the reporter’s transcript will constitute the official record
`of the hearings. The hearings will be governed by the guidelines below.
`Petitioner will have a total of sixty (60) minutes of total argument
`time to present its arguments in IPR2022-01304, IPR2022-01305, and
`IPR2022-01308, and Patent Owner will have a total of sixty (60) minutes
`of total argument time to respond in IPR2022-01304, IPR2022-01305, and
`IPR2022-01308.6
`In IPR2022-01294, Petitioner will have a total of forty-five (45)
`minutes to present argument, and Patent Owner will have a total of forty-
`five (45) minutes to respond.
`
`
`3 The U.S. Patent and Trademark Office (“USPTO”) is concerned with the
`health and safety of all of its stakeholders, and will continue to follow all
`applicable health guidance. Prior to arriving at any USPTO office location,
`please consult the following to verify entry requirements:
`https://www.uspto.gov/coronavirus.
`4 If there are any concerns about disclosing confidential information, the
`parties must contact the Board at Trials@uspto.gov at least ten (10) business
`days before the hearing date.
`5 If there are any concerns about disclosing confidential information, the
`parties must contact the Board at Trials@uspto.gov at least ten (10) business
`days before the hearing date.
`6 The combined hearing for IPR2022-01304, IPR2022-01305, and IPR2022-
`01308 will thus extend from 9:00 AM to 11:15 AM Eastern Time, including
`a short break.
`
`
`
`3
`
`

`

`IPR2022-01294 (Patent 8,224,024 B2)
`IPR2022-01304 and IPR2022-01305 (Patent 6,922,632 B2)
`IPR2022-01308 (Patent 7,725,253 B2)
`
`
`In each of (a) the consolidated oral argument for IPR2022-01304,
`IPR2022-01305, and IPR2022-01308, and (b) oral argument for IPR2022-
`01294, the procedure is the same, as follows. Petitioner will open the hearing
`by presenting its case regarding the challenged claims for which the Board
`instituted trial, and may discuss the motions to exclude. Thereafter, Patent
`Owner will respond to Petitioner’s argument and may discuss the motions to
`exclude. Petitioner may reserve rebuttal time to respond to arguments
`presented by Patent Owner. In accordance with the Consolidated Trial
`Practice Guide7 (“CTPG”), issued in November 2019, Patent Owner may
`request to reserve time for a brief sur-rebuttal. See CTPG 83.
`
`The parties may request a pre-hearing conference in advance of the
`hearing. See CTPG 82; see also 84 Fed. Reg. 64,280 (Nov. 21, 2019). “The
`purpose of the pre-hearing conference is to afford the parties the opportunity
`to preview (but not argue) the issues to be discussed at the oral hearing, and
`to seek the Board’s guidance as to particular issues that the panel would like
`addressed by the parties.” CTPG 82. Requests must be made by November
`28, 2023 for IPR2022-01304, IPR2022-01305, and IPR2022-01308, and by
`November 24, 2023 for IPR2022-01294. See IPR2022-01304, Paper 12
`(Scheduling Order),8 12 (DUE DATE 6); IPR2022-01294, Paper 11
`(Scheduling Order), 11 (DUE DATE 6). If either party desires a pre-hearing
`conference, the parties should jointly contact the Board at Trials@uspto.gov
`at least seven (7) business days before the hearing date to request a
`conference call for that purpose.
`
`7 Available at https://www.uspto.gov/TrialPracticeGuideConsolidated.
`8 The same Scheduling Order was entered in IPR2022-01305 and IPR2022-
`01308.
`
`
`
`4
`
`

`

`IPR2022-01294 (Patent 8,224,024 B2)
`IPR2022-01304 and IPR2022-01305 (Patent 6,922,632 B2)
`IPR2022-01308 (Patent 7,725,253 B2)
`
`B. Demonstratives
`As set forth in 37 C.F.R. § 42.70(b), demonstratives shall be served on
`opposing counsel at least seven (7) business days before the hearing date.
`Notwithstanding the regulations, demonstratives shall be filed with the
`Board no later than December 5, 2023. 9
`Demonstratives are not a mechanism for making new arguments.
`Demonstratives also are not evidence, and will not be relied upon as
`evidence. Rather, demonstratives are visual aids to a party’s oral
`presentation regarding arguments and evidence previously presented and
`discussed in the papers. Accordingly, demonstratives shall be clearly marked
`with the words “DEMONSTRATIVE EXHIBIT – NOT EVIDENCE” in the
`footer. See Dell Inc. v. Acceleron, LLC, 884 F.3d 1364, 1369 (Fed. Cir.
`2018) (holding that the Board is obligated under its own regulations to
`dismiss untimely argument “raised for the first time during oral argument”).
`“[N]o new evidence may be presented at the oral argument.” CTPG 85; see
`also St. Jude Med., Cardiology Div., Inc. v. The Bd. of Regents of the Univ.
`of Mich., IPR2013-00041, Paper 65, 2–3 (PTAB Jan. 27, 2014) (explaining
`that “new” evidence includes evidence already of record but not previously
`discussed in any paper of record).
`Furthermore, because of the strict prohibition against the presentation
`of new evidence or arguments at a hearing, it is strongly recommended that
`each demonstrative include a citation to a paper in the record, which allows
`the Board to easily ascertain whether a given demonstrative contains “new”
`
`
`9 The parties may stipulate to an alternative schedule for serving
`demonstratives, but may not change the schedule for filing.
`5
`
`
`
`

`

`IPR2022-01294 (Patent 8,224,024 B2)
`IPR2022-01304 and IPR2022-01305 (Patent 6,922,632 B2)
`IPR2022-01308 (Patent 7,725,253 B2)
`
`argument or evidence or, instead, contains only that which is developed in
`the existing record.
`Due to the nature of the Board’s consideration of demonstratives and
`the opportunity afforded for the parties to reach an agreement without
`involving the Board, the Board does not anticipate that objections to
`demonstratives are likely to be sustained. Nevertheless, to the extent that a
`party objects to the propriety of any demonstrative, the parties shall meet
`and confer in good faith to resolve any objections to demonstratives prior to
`filing the objections with the Board. If such objections cannot be resolved,
`the parties may file any objections to demonstratives with the Board no later
`than December 5, 2023. The objections shall identify with particularity
`which portions of the demonstratives are subject to objection (and should
`include a copy of the objected-to portions) and include a one (1) sentence
`statement of the reason for each objection. No argument or further
`explanation is permitted. The Board will consider any objections, and may
`reserve ruling on the objections.10 Any objection to demonstratives that is
`not timely presented will be considered waived.
`Finally, the parties are reminded that each presenter should identify
`clearly and specifically each paper (e.g., by slide or screen number for a
`demonstrative) referenced during the hearing to ensure the clarity and
`accuracy of the court reporter’s transcript and for the benefit of all
`participants appearing electronically.
`
`
`10 If time permits, the Board may schedule a conference call with the parties
`to discuss any filed objections.
`
`
`
`6
`
`

`

`IPR2022-01294 (Patent 8,224,024 B2)
`IPR2022-01304 and IPR2022-01305 (Patent 6,922,632 B2)
`IPR2022-01308 (Patent 7,725,253 B2)
`
`C.
`
`Presenting Counsel
`The Board generally expects lead counsel for each party to be present
`at the hearing. See CTPG 11. Any counsel of record may present the party’s
`argument as long as that counsel is present.
`Remote Attendance Requests
`D.
`Members of the public may request to listen to and/or view this
`hearing. If resources are available, the Board generally expects to grant such
`requests. If either party objects to the Board granting such requests, for
`example, because confidential information may be discussed, the party must
`notify the Board at PTABHearings@uspto.gov at least ten (10) business
`days prior to the hearing date.
`Audio/Visual Equipment Requests
`E.
`Any special requests for audio-visual equipment should be directed to
`PTABHearings@uspto.gov. A party may also indicate any special requests
`related to appearing at a video hearing, such as a request to accommodate
`deaf or hard-of-hearing individuals and blind or low vision individuals, and
`indicate how the PTAB may accommodate the special request. Any special
`requests must be presented in a separate communication at least five (5)
`business days before the hearing date.
`Legal Experience and Advancement Program
`F.
`The Board has established the “Legal Experience and Advancement
`Program,” or “LEAP,” to encourage advocates with less legal experience to
`argue before the Board to develop their skills. The Board defines a LEAP
`
`
`
`7
`
`

`

`IPR2022-01294 (Patent 8,224,024 B2)
`IPR2022-01304 and IPR2022-01305 (Patent 6,922,632 B2)
`IPR2022-01308 (Patent 7,725,253 B2)
`
`practitioner as a patent agent or attorney having three (3) or fewer
`substantive oral arguments in any federal tribunal, including PTAB.11
`The parties are encouraged to participate in the Board’s LEAP
`program. Either party may request that a qualifying LEAP practitioner
`participate in the program and conduct at least a portion of the party’s oral
`argument. The Board will grant up to fifteen (15) minutes of additional
`argument time to that party, depending on the length of the proceeding and
`the PTAB’s hearing schedule. A party should submit a request, no later than
`at least five (5) business days before the oral hearing, by email to the Board
`at PTABHearings@uspto.gov.12
`The LEAP practitioner may conduct the entire oral argument or may
`share time with other counsel, provided that the LEAP practitioner is offered
`a meaningful and substantive opportunity to argue before the Board. The
`party has the discretion as to the type and quantity of oral argument that will
`be conducted by the LEAP practitioner.13 Moreover, whether the LEAP
`practitioner conducts the argument in whole or in part, the Board will permit
`
`
`11 Whether an argument is “substantive” for purposes of determining
`whether an advocate qualifies as a LEAP practitioner will be made on a
`case-by-case basis with considerations to include, for example, the amount
`of time that the practitioner argued, the circumstances of the argument, and
`whether the argument concerned the merits or ancillary issues.
`12 Additionally, a LEAP Verification Form shall be submitted by the LEAP
`practitioner, confirming eligibility for the program. A combined LEAP
`Practitioner Request for Oral Hearing Participation and Verification Form is
`available on the LEAP website, www.uspto.gov/leap.
`13 Examples of the issues that a LEAP practitioner may argue include claim
`construction argument(s), motion(s) to exclude evidence, or patentability
`argument(s) including, e.g., analyses of prior art or objective indicia of non-
`obviousness.
`
`
`
`8
`
`

`

`IPR2022-01294 (Patent 8,224,024 B2)
`IPR2022-01304 and IPR2022-01305 (Patent 6,922,632 B2)
`IPR2022-01308 (Patent 7,725,253 B2)
`
`more experienced counsel to provide some assistance to the LEAP
`practitioner, if necessary, during oral argument, and to clarify any statements
`on the record before the conclusion of the oral argument. Importantly, the
`Board does not draw any inference about the importance of a particular issue
`or issues, or the merits of the party’s arguments regarding that issue, from
`the party’s decision to have (or not to have) a LEAP practitioner argue.
`In instances where an advocate does not meet the LEAP eligibility
`requirements due to the number of “substantive” oral hearing arguments, but
`nonetheless has a basis for considering themselves to be in the category of
`advocates that this program is intended to assist, the Board encourages
`argument by such advocates during oral hearings. Even though additional
`argument time will not be provided when the advocate does not qualify for
`LEAP, a party may share argument time among counsel and the Board will
`permit the more experienced counsel to provide some assistance, if
`necessary, during oral argument, and to clarify any statements on the record
`before the conclusion of the oral argument.
`All practitioners appearing before the Board shall demonstrate the
`highest professional standards. All practitioners are expected to have a
`command of the factual record, the applicable law, and Board procedures, as
`well as the authority to commit the party they represent.
`
`
`
`
`9
`
`

`

`IPR2022-01294 (Patent 8,224,024 B2)
`IPR2022-01304 and IPR2022-01305 (Patent 6,922,632 B2)
`IPR2022-01308 (Patent 7,725,253 B2)
`
`
`II.
`
`ORDER
`
`Accordingly, it is
`ORDERED that the oral arguments for IPR2022-01304, IPR2022-
`01305, and IPR2022-01308 will be consolidated,14 and the consolidated oral
`argument shall commence at 9:00 AM Eastern Time on December 7, 2023,
`at the USPTO headquarters in Alexandria, Virginia, and proceed in the
`manner set forth herein;
`FURTHER ORDERED that the parties should note an argument made
`at the consolidated oral hearing shall apply only in those proceedings in
`which the record supports the argument; and
`FURTHER ORDERED that oral argument for IPR2022-01294 shall
`commence at 12:00 PM Eastern Time on December 7, 2023, at the
`USPTO headquarters in Alexandria, Virginia, and proceed in the manner
`set forth herein.
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`
`14 The proceedings, however, have not been consolidated.
`10
`
`
`
`

`

`IPR2022-01294 (Patent 8,224,024 B2)
`IPR2022-01304 and IPR2022-01305 (Patent 6,922,632 B2)
`IPR2022-01308 (Patent 7,725,253 B2)
`
`
`FOR PETITIONER:
`
`W. Todd Baker
`Todd.baker@kirkland.com
`
`Ellisen Turner
`Ellisen.turner@kirkland.com
`
`Yimeng Dou
`Yimeng.dou@kirkland.com
`
`
`FOR PATENT OWNER:
`
`Meredith Addy
`meredith@addyhart.com
`
`Robert Hart
`robert@addyhart.com
`
`Gregory Gulliver
`Gbgulliver65@gmail.com
`
`Debmallo Ghosh
`sghosh@wc.com
`
`Arthur Argall III
`aargall@wc.com
`
`
`
`
`
`
`11
`
`